Stating your opinion vs drugging men

Blame the idiot parents for that bullshit, don't take away medical treatments that can actually improve people's quality of life to the point where it's livable. Most clinics won't even give appointments to anyone under the age of 16, let alone give them any treatments. I'm sure you're not going to see the logic in that, because it's not what you want to hear. I don't think there's a single case of anyone under the age of 16, probably not even under 18, being legally given any form of gender reassignment surgery.

"Weh weh weh, how DARE you talk to ME about your own experiences. I know more than you because I searched what I want to hear on the internet!"

It does have proven benefits, numbnuts. You know, like the vastly lowered suicide rates, the improvement that you can ask literally any trans person who's been through it about, the fact that therapy and other treatments have been very much proven to NOT work... But no, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! You know, the ones that 99% of clinics won't even see.

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[–]paigeap25132 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The government doesn't care why you don't have hands.

Yes it does at least to an extent. In my country last year there was a case of a gypsy who cut their hand off because they had no money and while they still were given money it was considerably less because it was self inflicted.

In a world where that is properly allowed it would be made sure that someone cutting their hand off wouldn't cause a strain on the system. Also, I'm yet to hear about someone who wanted to cut their hand off for the same reason transgender people want to get SRS(and not all transgender people want SRS, I for example don't) I've only heard about one man who wanted to cut and did cut his right leg off.

Both the dick and breast are vital parts of your body.

No they're not. Vital means necessary to live and neither is.

They serve specific biological functions.

That's not what vital means.

Or are you missing the most important part of your body, the brain?

I'm not missing it but I don't know about you. What I do know though is that I'm not allowing my emotions and the toxic conformist culture that people usually grow up in to blind my judgement.

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You probably won't even notice half of the ones claiming to be non-binary unless they tell you (which they will if you make the mistake of talking to them), they generally just blend in as your typical third wave feminist. Most of them don't change a thing and just get people to call them different pronouns and/or a different name, and make a big deal of it whenever possible.

But yeah, trans women are far more common statistically in the population of people who actually do have gender dysphoria. Trans women dominate the image of trans people in the public eye in a big way, and the community can be pretty toxic because it's linked to feminism. I feel like a lot of trans women wrongly link the stigma they experience to female oppression, but it's actually far more related to them still being read by others as men early in their transition, and the massive stigma that comes with men doing things that are perceived to be feminine. Also the still existing enormous amount of stigma around actually being trans- feminists like to brainwash trans women into thinking that trans men experience little or no harassment or violence. That's really far from the case.

None of that means that they aren't capable of making the decisions though. If clinics are worried about your mental stability, they generally won't let you undergo any treatments until you've been through extensive therapy, and Gender Dysphoria is only really linked to depression and anxiety, neither of which make you worse at making those kinds of decisions. It's not like most people with GD suffer from severe psychosis or anything. Oh, they also make you socially transition (living as the gender you are transitioning to) for like a year before you can have hormones or surgery. Generally, you're going to figure out it's not for you by then.

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Should you allow people to kill others if it makes them happier? Obviously an extreme, but if Bob would be happier with Tim dead, then by your logic go ahead and do it.

If we allow mentally unstable people to tell us how to judge them, and we should be ok with self disfigurement, then what grounds do we have to stand up to other things? I’m not saying that these people are terrible for society, and I’m not saying that I’m ok with the suicide rates of these people, but maybe we should focus on rehabilitation of these people. Obviously the current mental health programs are not working as intended. And to be fair it seems like it’s increasing at a substantial rate. It could be because it’s being shared more frequently on social media, but it could also be because we are becoming more and more mentally unstable as a society. I don’t know what it is, and I don’t have the answers, but I do know that something needs to be done. I, and you, shouldn’t have to conform to what Lisa (formerly Bill) wants me to call them. Albeit polite and kind to be thoughtful of them, it isn’t my responsibility to keep up on these individuals daily actions and see what to call them today.

[–]Wauwosaurus2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your example isn't really relevant, because a trans person doing something to themselves isn't the same as killing another person. Why strawman this?

Jesus Christ mate, did you read what I said, you can't make a trans person not trans just as much as you can make a gay person straight. You are suggesting that we treat trans people like we treated gay people back in the days, like lunatics. I agree that the trans spike probably has a share of trans-trending, but you do know that these people don't actually go through with sexual reassignment as that requires actually being trans to actually go that far.

I don't care what you call Bill or Lisa (whoever that might be) as that isn't our argument, a totally irrelevant notion from your part, we are discussing whether or not a trans person has the right to help themselves, which is kind of obvious. I usually don't get stingy on here but you are actually making me. You say that you won't conform to them by calling them their preferred names (no one can force you), but you also say that they definitely should conform to you by living a life in which they hate themselves (you cannot force them). I actually don't understand how you can sit and say that they aren't deserving of freedom. I can bet my right nut that their happiness isn't your concern in this matter, if it was you should drop this or start working fast on this "cure" that you believe will exist, because people are and will be free to do with themselves as they please, and if it makes you uncomfortable you should find a better way.

I'm also willing to bet my left nut that there won't ever be a "working" mental health program for this just as little as there will ever be for gay people.

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[–]gbBaku1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's a hard question. Many of us genuinely don't hate and aren't disgusted by trans people, it's just the evidence suggests that it is a mental illness. Trans people commit suicide at a higher rate than people with depression. People argue that it's their unaccepting environment, but there are several counterarguments to that:

Trans people suicide rates do not decrease in more progressive countries and more accepting environments
Trans people suicide rates do not drop after transitioning

They lead to the conclusion, that the hateful environment are not the cause of their suicide, and not the trans movement, nor the transitioning itself do anything to treat it. Psychologists do nothing to reduce their chance of committing suicide, they are completely failing them. It has the same positive effect as homeopathy has on cancer.

It shows the characteristics of a mental disease, and we don't say that to be hateful. We don't hate people with depression, paranoia, anorexia either. But we don't tell people with depression that it's okay to off yourself, we don't tell paranoiacs that aliens are real, and we don't tell anorexic persons to starve themselves. Some think treating dender dysphoria should follow suit and not tell people that they are a different gender, this literally has no basis in biology and most biologists would tell you that the notion that there are no biological gender is scientifically idiotic.

One better argument is that the trans movement is manufacturing transgender kids. Children are curious about gender, the differences between boys and girls, etc.. Yet these movements completely confuse them with 700 genders and the notion that you can be whatever gender you want. Is it any wonder, that little kindergartener children who has no sexuality whatsoever are confused and are increasingly more likely to announce they are trans? It's a question worth asking.

Some parallels I would like to make with the MRM: parent's seem to be more likely to push their sons to be a girl rather than the other way around. This is admittedly completely anecdotal, but makes sense if you consider the man hate in society. Women who do this didn't want to have a son. Secondly, the MRM is as controversial as the anti-trans movement (I'm not so involved in that so I don't know what they call themselves - they seem to be more scattered right now than the MRM), and consider the fact that women speaking about men's issues are more likely to be listened to. In the case of anti-trans movements, people who used to be trans and had sex revert surgeries are the same. A group of people who reverted sex change and blames their family, teachers, and society, for confusing them, lying to them, just to make themselves feel open minded. They blame psychologists for their lack of research into this, which is completely on point. It is scientifically unfounded that gender dysphoria should be treated the way it is, and results show how ineffective it is.

Edit: To answer your question finally, I don't know the right answer, but I lean on the side of not allowing delusional people to chop up their genitals, ruining their lives with it permanently.

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Are you aware of the fact that transgenders are the most likely to commit suicide? 40% of them does. FOURTY!

And that number doesn't change with an accepting environment, and that 40% stays 40% after surgery. Which to me seems to suggest that gender change don't make them happier.

And then there are sex change regret movements of trans people who realized they were dumb and mostly blames their family and society who feeded into their delusion.

In the name of being accepting, and fear of being labeled a transphobic, mental health professionals let gender dysphoria be self diagnosed by even little children who doesn't even know what sexuality is. And for example in canada, it is considered child abuse to say that your child is just being playful or confused. And then the government will take your confused child and cut them up.

The mental health field completely fails transgender people. It's like telling paranoiacs that the aliens after them are real. It doesn't help them, and there is no proof otherwise.

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Are you aware of the fact that transgenders are the most likely to commit suicide? 40% of them does. FOURTY!

And that number doesn't change with an accepting environment, and that 40% stays 40% after surgery. Which to me seems to suggest that gender change don't make them happier.

And then there are sex change regret movements of trans people who realized they were dumb and mostly blames their family and society who feeded into their delusion.

In the name of being accepting, and fear of being labeled a transphobic, mental health professionals let gender dysphoria be self diagnosed by even little children who doesn't even know what sexuality is. And for example in canada, it is considered child abuse to say that your child is just being playful or confused. And the government will cut your confused child up.

The mental health field completely fails transgender people. It's like telling paranoiacs that the aliens after them are real. It doesn't help them, and there is no proof otherwise.

[–]Srtviper0 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]gbBaku3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't really make a habit of that, but in this case I wanted to make sure the two of you sees it.

I replied to your points already in another comment.

I grew up accepting and believing this is real, until I saw overwhelming evidence that the mental health field did not do their homework and everything is politically driven instead of scientifically. Mental health professionals do not do anything. All you need is to say you are transgender, and every therapist will be okay with that.

It really hurts, because I grew up accepting this, and I made a few very good transgender friends, and now I worry and fear for them, and my heart hurts for them how literally the people they counted on, psychiatrists, parents, teachers, society, feeded into their delusions having no idea if their methods even work. I also trusted the mental health field that they know what they are doing, but turns out they didn't look into it properly.

If you call this hate, you need to fuck off mate.

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Of course I wouldn't. Same way I wouldn't say to someone with a depression that they are mentally unstable or that it's all in their head and should just simply snap out of it. It's a more delicate subject than that. Mental illnesses are serious issues that shouldn't be taken lightly. You think that because we call it mental illness we are hating on it, but no, sorry, we also think mental illnesses are serious and is a delicate subject.

However, as we are fighting to prevent/overcome depression, I think the same approach should be used for gender dysphoria as paranoia or depression. We should fight to prevent/overcome gender dysphoria, not accomodate yours and society's life around it. There is literally no grounds for transgender people and activists being right in biology, and in psychology it's heavily politicized (this conversation also proves it - disagreeing is being equated to hate, where there is no hate whatsoever. A psychologist wanting to research alternative treatments would be shot down by political activists.).

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[–]Srtviper1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]gbBaku1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sorry for the wait, couldn't be bothered to do it yesterday, I felt like just playing video games all day. I need a day like that once in a while.

First of all, let me empathize that I never said that transitioning is worse for trans people, I was arguing it's not better.

Here is a well sourced article, some important quotes from it are:

[The Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility], which conducts reviews of health care treatments for the [National Health Service], concludes that none of the studies provides conclusive evidence that gender reassignment is beneficial for patients. It found that most research was poorly designed, which skewed the results in favor of physically changing sex. There was no evaluation of whether other treatments, such as long-term counseling, might help transsexuals, or whether their gender confusion might lessen over time.

Overall, the quality and strength of evidence were low due to mostly observational study designs with no comparison groups, subjective endpoints, potential confounding (a situation where the association between the intervention and outcome is influenced by another factor such as a co-intervention), small sample sizes, lack of validated assessment tools, and considerable lost to follow-up.

The majority of studies were non-longitudinal, exploratory type studies (i.e., in a preliminary state of investigation or hypothesis generating), or did not include concurrent controls or testing prior to and after surgery. Several reported positive results but the potential issues noted above reduced strength and confidence. After careful assessment, we identified six studies that could provide useful information. Of these, the four best designed and conducted studies that assessed quality of life before and after surgery using validated (albeit non-specific) psychometric studies did not demonstrate clinically significant changes or differences in psychometric test results after [gender reassignment surgery].

So as you can see, especially if you follow these up and read the mentioned studies yourself, the science behind it is extremely lacking. I admit that I haven't gotten to the very bottom of all of them, but being in pedagogy science as a student myself, I have some insight on how social sciences work. In short, they don't. They just think and think they are smart because they are coming up with words and use scientific language.

The other point I wanted to bring to the table are sex change regret movements. They can tell their arguments far better than I can. I recommend the whole playlist, and especially this video. There are other websites and movements for transition regret, and detransitioning, and now there are even some detransitioning regret cases coming up. I really can't think of anything but them being delusional and confused. It's a sad thing, and let me emphatize again that I'm not saying this out of hate or disgust.

In the name of being accepting and inclusive, we are raising a generation of kids that are confused by their gender and some are about to make terrible decisions down the line. Parents often lose custody because they want to protect their child from this. Parents that know their children better than the courts and know they are under ill influence. They are hated by society on the grounds of being bigots, and while some may really be hateful and bigots, it's really about as accurate as people saying MRA's are misogynists. I think feminism plays a big role in the rise of transgenders. Girls are being taught that men have all the power and being a man is good, so they decide they want to be a man instead. While young boys experience the hate they get from society, and teachers, single mothers, institutions encourage feminine behaviours and even treat masculine ones (like playing in the dirt and being hyperactive) with medicine in the US. So it's no wonder they want to transition either. This whole topic was a whole other red pill on it's own. We live in a clown world.

Edit: This is also noteworthy: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885 haven't looked into it yet, but I'm about to dig in.

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Surely the expected thing would be that the less hate they encounter the less suicidal they would be, right? Of course trans people are not 100% accepted, but not even 100% cis people are accepted for god's sake. But what we would expect over a large sample and a large period of time, is that the less hateful encounters transgender people has, the less suicidal they would be. That's what I expected when I used to believe that gender dysphoria is a properly researched thing. Well, turns out it's wrong. It has no effect at all on their suicide rate. What does that mean? What is the conclusion? The conclusion is that we need to have more bloody research that is not politically driven and get to the bottom of this, because no one has any idea how to approach this. Not me, and not mental health professionals. They do nothing right that would decrease their suicide rate. They fail them!

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I'm saying this in general.

The hypocrisy is clear here, that Cardi B can create a video about her desire to drug and anally rape a man just because he is man, but this man, for his comments is ostracized.

The only problem is that the bigots and racist are controlling the narrative...well, in public anyway. This movement advances because the people who are not in control of the on-line narrative see that hypocrisy as clear as we do...and they are slowly taking note and moving to our side, if for nothing else, their lack of desire in being associated or identified with an auditorium of sociopaths with a Nazi complex.

Our movement, if nothing else at this particular time, is granting them the understanding that they, although being told time after time, are not in the minority, or the only voice in that storm, but the majority in need of a grounding.

When history speaks of this time, the Cardi B's of the world will not be seen as heroes, or the cure, but the problem.. We are just, currently at the darkest time before the dawn.

(edited for speeling and grahma...)

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Imagine thinking feminism is bullshit. Imagine thinking that the opposite side is completely made up crap, while yours is the perfect ideology. As a guy, wtf is wrong with you and the people that upvoted you? Feminism is what gave women the right to vote, to work, to earn equal pay and all of that. Modern feminism is just dealing with less severe inequalities, but still inequalities. Just like we are fighting for our rights they are fighting for theirs , what makes you think you're in such a high pedestal that you can call the opposite side "bullshit"? there are always two sides of the coin my guy, chill. There are of course bad women that represent feminism, that want women to have more pay than men, that want all the benefits of the "male privilege" without the bad stuff, and those are the ones that stand out more to us. Just like the bigot guys that support men's rights stand out. Those who want women only as a piece of meat and think that they should not fight for what they believe in. Just like you.

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But i don't know why it is so crucial for people with the wrong opinions (like that director with the tasteless twitter jokes) to be removed from the public view...

Because we're in the age of the rise of the FAR left. The kind of people who unironically support totalitarianism. If you don't think a certain way, you are to be shunned and silenced at all costs, and punished through the destruction of your career and personal life.

Apparently history hasn't yet taught people that destroying freedom of speech is never good, no matter why you're doing it. It doesn't help anyone, it doesn't solve anything. It just gives people too much power over others. People who are hateful aren't going to stop being hateful because you prevent them from expressing it. If anything, this system just makes them angrier, and gives them more ammunition.

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Title	Stating your opinion vs drugging men
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	2617
Comments	383
Date	May 2, 2019 6:46 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/bjyk1b/stating-your-opinion-vs-drugging-men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/stating-your-opinion-vs-drugging-men.1626347 https://theredarchive.com/post/1626347

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