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How do you think Ukraine should handle conscription during their war?

Total_Yankee_Death · 2024-05-06T06:32:38+00:00

Do you think it's morally acceptable for Ukraine to force men to serve and risk their lives in order to defend their country? If you do, then should...

Total_Yankee_Death

May 6, 2024

9 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	How do you think Ukraine should handle conscription during their war?
Author	Total_Yankee_Death
Upvotes	9
Comments	119
Date	May 6, 2024 6:32 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1clcdjm/how_do_you_think_ukraine_should_handle/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/how-do-you-think-ukraine-should-handle.1517596 https://theredarchive.com/post/1517596

Comments

[–]wtknightBlue-ish Gen X Slacker - Man[M] [score hidden] 2 years ago stickied comment (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Financial_Leave4411Purple Pill Woman [score hidden] 2 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

I don’t think anyone should ever be forced to be in the military; man or woman. The fact is if a country cannot get its young people to volunteer for military service to protect it, it means that country is not treating its youth well and at that point I have to question if the country’s even worth protecting as it’s usually run by old rich people who don’t care about the average citizen. If a country is looking to have more allies just due to having a low population to begin with when going up against a country with a higher population then it needs to join into an agreement with other nations; an example of this would be if Ukraine joined NATO. If Ukraine still wants our help or the help of other western nations then they need to finish the process to officially join NATO first.

[–]Mysterious-Floor-909 [score hidden] 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]elektironPurple Pill Man [score hidden] 2 years ago* (24 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely not, taking the whole geopolitical big picture into account, the West should continue to help Ukraine whether or not it's in NATO now, because it serves not only Ukrainian, but also general European and world peace interests.

I understand your point of being anti-conscription and also agree that in theory it should be the state's, not individual citizens' responsibility to ensure safety through maintaning strong military and effective diplomacy. But declaring a country unworthy of defence simply because people flee from being drafted is simply wrong and directly contributes to spreading Russian propaganda, therefore I have to call it out.

Again taking the big picture into account, it's the West that failed Ukraine by trusting and doing business with Russia for the last decade, even after the Crimea invasion, and not living up to NATO expectations in terms of arming itself, which only encouraged an authoritarian, aggressive dictatorship to invade further.

The Ukrainian army has fought really well for their capabilities. But assuming they're in dire straits and worn out after some time, why should more men happily volunteer to fight now if it means going straight out to die, while the West moans that they can't help anymore, continues to do business with Russia and presents views such as yours (i.e. "if they don't want to fight themselves, maybe they're unworthy of protecting")?

How can one even deem a democratic, pro-European country unworthy of defence. Even assuming it's "run by old, rich people" and "not treating its youth so well", will they be better off under Russian barbaric regime, which they have been striving to avoid for decades now?

Edit: Moreover, just remembered the US and UK made a vow to guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty in its existing borders, signing the Budapest memorandum 30 years back, in exchange for which Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons. So much for judging Ukrainian diplomacy and keeping up agreements with other nations, which now wonder if they're worthy of protecting…

[–]Financial_Leave4411Purple Pill Woman [score hidden] 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

So, what exactly are US tax payers getting in exchange for funding Ukraine?

There are so many other things we need in the US like universal healthcare, affordable housing and education, road and bridge repairs, better care for our own veterans and to find a way to continue funding social security and other safety net programs etc. so why should we put Ukraine above the needs of our own citizens? If Ukraine were apart of NATO we should help because we are in a contract to help each other but to do it for nothing because Ukraine is dragging its feet to join NATO while our own US citizens suffer is bs. US tax dollars have to help our own people first. Many countries are struggling and if Ukraine can’t get its own people to want to save it we shouldn’t care either. In fact the US needs to stop funding the rest of the world at the expense of its own people. We the citizens need the help and funding. OUR tax dollars should go to OUR communities.

[–]elektironPurple Pill Man [score hidden] 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed there’s much to be improved in the US and the country’s own citizens should be a priority. I understand your perspective of being far away and not getting the why. „The West” means Europe too, and Europe is what I refer to the most, as it has a direct interest in keeping a stable, friendly neighbor yet still underperforms in helping.

As a global power, the US has interests all over the world though. Ukraine is a test and if the West’s authoritarian opponents see it fail, the process accelerates to encourage China to invade Taiwan, Russia to take further countries, various others to proceed against the Americans, who lose influence and prove weak. Turning your back on Europe further makes you lose allies in the long term. If individual American taxpayers don’t feel they have any material interest in world peace, keeping their country globally influential or enjoying access to a wide array of peaceful, democratic markets and it’s only the richest making the gains from prosperity, as opposed to average people lacking basic healthcare then that’s another thing, proving something is wrong over there. And you’re not „funding the world”, you invest where you see interests.

Not an expert in American politics, anyway I feel it’s the same political forces that question the usefulness of NATO or helping Ukraine and simultaneously advocate against universal healthcare and social programs the most.

Finally, Ukraine is not dragging their feet to join NATO, they have applied and it’s the West weaseling out, as they fear angering Russia that believes NATO to be hostile. It all comes down to managing risk and big picture geopolitics, also heavily influenced by the West, and not the actual will of Ukrainians.

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My only point is simply highlighting the current need to continue helping Ukraine, as opposed to the original comment about them being unworthy of protection.

You are helping Ukraine die. If you really wanted to help Ukraine then you would have helped them avoid this mess altogether. Bit paradoxical that they wanted to join NATO to prevent Russian invasion and this ambition is what led to Russian invasion. They had the choice to maintain good, friendly relationship with their brother country instead of trying to join a coalition which is poised against Russia.

What threat did Ukraine face in 2008 from Russia? That's when they first expressed interest in joining NATO. Georgia too. Russia rolled in, kicked in sense in them and dutifully left them alone when they promised to stay out of NATO.

Ultimately if you act recklessly and don't respect other country's security concerns then don't act surprised when they take the matters in their own hands.

You can brand NATO however you want, but it has a proven history of aggression, how many countries have NATO coalition invaded vs how many countries have Russia invaded? You don't get to tell what Russia should or should not consider a security threat. If you have your way you would metamorphically put them in handcuffs and put a noose around their neck "for your own defense".

When Putin wanted to cooperate about the ballistic missile defense for Europe and you told him to piss off then it was a clear indication that it was to constrain Russian ability to hit back even though they had expressed no intent in spirit or action to do so. So you continually expand in a way that undermines their strategic posture and then expect to take it in the ass and act offended when they say no and push back. Yeah no.

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[–]MyPCsuckswantnewone [score hidden] 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The problem here is that you think a country is worth defending, and therefore all fighting-age males should be forced to give up their lives to serve that ideology. You're effectively proclaiming that these males are all wrong, their lives are inferior to all those around them, society treats them well and therefore they should be slaves to the state. Who are you to declare that?

The only one who should ultimately decide that their life is worth giving up, is the individual themselves. Not their dad, mom, their sister, their wife, and certainly not you or I. And if there are enough young men out there who think that their country does not deserve defending, then so be it. It means their country isn't worth their lives.

It has nothing to do with Russian propaganda. It has everything to do with your personhood, the fact that you own your own body, and your right to not be a slave. Because if you can't even own your own body, then what are you even? You're a lesser being than women, and even animals - yes even animals, because even animals are allowed to escape.

[–]elektironPurple Pill Man [score hidden] 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Mate, never said I fully support the conscription, nor drafting only men. Quite the opposite. I believe it’s the state’s responsibility to ensure a strong military able to defend a country and an effective diplomacy mitigating any external hostility, everything obviously funded through taxes in whatever form. No citizen should be forced to go risk their lives (in theory), it’s the state’s duty towards them.

My argument is that it’s much more complicated than „if they don’t want to fight themselves, the country is unworthy of protection”.

The foreword was that Ukraine should perish because their own people flee from draft and it didn’t secure alliances through diplomacy, so we, as the West, shouldn’t care. My response is that it’s much more complicated and the West (mostly Europe) isn’t doing enough themselves now and hasn’t been living up to expectations for a while, while helping defend Ukraine should be continued as it indeed furthers the Western interests in the big picture. Simple as.

[–]anon12101 [score hidden] 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Financial_Leave4411Purple Pill Woman [score hidden] 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Electric_Death_1349Purple Pill Man [score hidden] 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]chalkandapplesPurple Pill Woman [score hidden] 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Very difficult moral dilemma here. I hate war and conscription in general, and I would flee the country and try to get any male relatives to flee too. From an individual perspective, it's such a silly thing to die for.

But in Ukraine's situation, if everyone does that then they don't have a country. I do think if they're going to draft men they should draft women too. The army needs as much help as it needs, there are lots of non-combat and less strength based roles that women can do if the military doesn't think women will be effective in direct combat roles.

I think you should draft equally across the board. Drafting only childless women would mean drafting most of your younger women that are most likely to have more children later. I guess the point is to not have orphans. Maybe only draft 1 parent of each child? Although that will probably default to the dad. This is why war sucks.

[–]Total_Yankee_Deathstonewall jackson pilled ♂[S] [score hidden] 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But in Ukraine's situation, if everyone does that then they don't have a country.

I already elaborated more in a top-level comment I posted here, maybe it got deleted. But frankly Ukraine was already a rotting corpse of a country prior to 2022. They had rock-bottom fertility(1.2) as a fairly low-income country(lower GDP per capita than Russia), I don't think there's any other country in the world like that.

On top of that even before 2022 Ukraine had high emigration rates, even before the war many Ukrainians were desperate to leave for better oppurtunities elsewhere. Chances are the millions of Ukrainians that left because of the war won't be coming back.

Russia can't be allowed to "win" this war of blatant aggression but if I was Ukrainian I probably wouldn't see a viable future for my country.

Drafting only childless women would mean drafting most of your younger women that are most likely to have more children later

If they are in a support role it's unlikely they'd be KIA or grievously wounded.

For the record I don't think women should be expressly kept away from combat roles either, but realistically most of them

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The OP’s question is moot. Ukraine, like most militaries, has very little equipment to fit women (and I’m just talking the absolute basics: uniforms, body armour, boots, etc.). Even if women were conscripted there’d be no easy way to actually integrate them into the army in the first place (although this is slowly changing).

When the initial invasion happened in 2014 Ukrainian women working for the army (training soldiers how to use drones, organising logistical efforts, etc.) were formally unrecognised and went unpaid, despite doing army-critical work in the Donbas. This has since been rectified, but it took years.

Expecting Ukraine to go from “no women in the army” to an Israeli model of universal conscription in a decade is a taller ask than people seem to realise.

(Anyway, what they really need are 155mm shells, more than anything….not more Ukrainian bodies to feed into the meat grinder)

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How do you think Ukraine should handle conscription during their war?

Comments

Once again, men advocating to draft women instead of to eliminate the draft

Nobody should be drafted.

They should just end the draft instead.