So what have we learned?

Ocean_Squeeze · 2015-12-18T18:13:07+00:00

I came in here with the same preconceptions of RPers that most people have, although I was kind of sympathetic to some ideas. I still wouldn't identify as RP but their ideas are at least based on some logic and evidence, even if sometimes it's a little shaky. I still find TRP subreddit unbearable and would never post there, but most of the RPers here are actually okay, pretty intelligent people on the whole. On the other hand, I've come to seriously dislike most BPers for their apparent inability to have a decent argument. They come to an argument with a preconception of what the 'answer' is and parrot whatever crap they've heard, and then have the temerity to act smug about it. Whenever I kind of 'check myself' for narrow-minded thinking I find myself leaning far closer to RP because of how impossibly shit a lot of the reasoning from BPers is.

In a way I've been kind of looking for something serious from BPers to really tear a hole in RP arguments but it's frustrating to find none. It's really only purple pillers who do a good job of countering RP assumptions.

That extends to more than this sub though. TBP is more than just a 'parody' sub (which is convenient because you can't attack something that apparently doesn't mean anything). It's a collection of people who absolutely refuse to open their minds to an argument, and it's so obvious when they write in here that they haven't. They've come to proselytize, not learn anything, or refine their arguments. This is apparent in all gender politics, particularly with regards to feminism. Sure, I've become even more convinced that feminist theory is now essentially bullshit, but it's been interesting to consider and discuss why they and so many others simply refuse to recognise this bullshit. Most of my interest at the moment is to do with why this ideology is so prevalent, what advantages it brings or why the 'truth' is so uncomfortable.

dakru · 2015-12-18T17:47:19+00:00

Background: I have some overlap with TRP in a few ways. I'm critical of feminism (it's a special interest group for women misusing the label of gender equality). I think that the problem of pedestalizing women is very common among men. I believe that women tend to be attracted to masculine traits in men, but that a lot of mainstream advice misleads them and wrongly focuses on other things (like being nice, kind, and caring) that are good but are focused on way too much. However I've never really been able to get on board with TRP because of the other stuff: the outrageous, extreme, black-and-white (e.g. "men are like this and women are like that, period"), non-nuanced, "women are shitty people" type content.

Answer: My biggest realization from my time here is that often (thought not always) they're not saying these things because they actually believe them. Instead, it's done because they want to be intentionally outrageous and troll feminists (sometimes with the goal of being "featured" in /r/TheBluePill). Or it's done to give men confidence and the ability to not be intimidated by women (it's hard to be intimidated when you see them with disdain). Or it's done to move the Overton window in a certain direction (an MRA might normally be considered extreme, but in comparison to a TRPer, they're moderate... or at least that's the thought process).

Of course, knowing that they're (often) not serious about these things doesn't mean that I can ignore that they say them and get on board with TRP (and not just because there are still some who are completely serious about those things). I like to say what I mean and I like to be precise in my language (e.g. not turning "men are more often like this and women are more often like that" into "men are like this and women are like that"). I'd rather have a discussion with someone using my actual beliefs, rather than troll someone using intentionally exaggerated beliefs. If they prefer a different approach to my own then that's fine, it's up to them, but it means I can't really get on board with them.

PemBayliss · 2015-12-18T20:08:03+00:00

Well, I've learned:

--the feminine imperative is incredibly strong and resilient. The FI is so pervasive and ubiquitous, and so seductive, that even most of the RPW can't see its influence. They might be RP, but they're still women. They might be RP, but they play for Team Woman, all day long, every day.

--men and women still cannot discuss sexual dynamics and gender politics in any meaningful way.

--RPs and BPs are never, ever going to see eye to eye on much of anything. The chasm between their respective worldviews is just enormous, and that gulf continues to widen with each passing day.

--Closely related to the above -- PPD exists primarily for RPs and BPs to shout at each other, name-call, preen, and act superior to the other side. Each side presumes the other is coming from a place of total ignorance, sinister intent, and bad faith. They're not here to be persuaded, to listen to each other, to consider alternative viewpoints or to find common ground. They're here to buttress, to reinforce, and to gather evidence to support, their own pre-set positions and their own beliefs about how "correct" they each are. The difference is that RP just walks away, while BP runs back to its "safe space" at r/thebluepill to mock and ridicule, and wave something some TRPer said as a bloody shirt.

--BPs cannot be taken seriously at all, not when they claim to be a satire/parody site existing to mock and ridicule RP. They cannot then come here and demand to be taken seriously as if they have something meaningful or insightful to offer.

--There are a LOT of pissed off, angry RPers, and they sure as hell have reason to be.

--BPs argue in bad faith, repeatedly. They come here with preconceived notions about literally everything. Most of their responses to TRP points are "TRP is bad, don't do TRP. Don't have anything else to offer you, just don't do/be TRP."

--PPD provides a good microcosm of today's society, in which the so-called "prevailing" Blue Pill mindset is the dominant ideology. Because it's the dominant ideology, according to Blues it is "good" and "right" and "noble" and "moral". BP constantly attacks TRP not as "incorrect" or "false" or "ineffective". BP goes much further than this, and assigns moral reprobation and degeneracy to TRP. BP claims that TRP is "immoral" and "destructive" and "mean-spirited" and "evil". BP argues from a position of "morality".

Blues make these claims for many reasons. First, because of TRP's specific statements that it is intended to help men get sex. This is considered "wrong", because Blues believe women are to control sex all the time.

Another reason Blues accuse TRP of "immorality" is that TRPers force Blues to look at how relationships actually work. Relationships are not about shared goals, affection, or even love. When you get all the way down to it, human relationships are about power -- who has it, who uses it, how it is used, and how it shifts from person to person. TRP forces Blues to confront this basic immutable fact about human beings and power differentials. Blues view all of this as "immoral".

Second, because many individual men at TRP speak of women in anything less than glowing, fawning, worshipful terms. Third, because the strategy stands directly athwart prevailing ideology and beliefs that men should do pretty much whatever women want them to do when it comes to intersexual relationships-- that men hold no cards while women hold nearly all of them. Fourth, because some previously unattractive men are either (1) getting more sex (i.e. actually learning how to play the game) or (2) walking away from a losing game.

So BP takes the position which the prior dominant ideology of Judeo-Christianity took: "Our position is moral, good and right. Opposing positions are immoral, evil and wrong." RP says "we're leaving morality out of it; we're interested in finding what works."

BP claims moral "high ground". TRP claims pragmatism and making the best of a shitty situation.

Xemnas81 · 2015-12-18T17:24:58+00:00

I've learned that most women are happy to be hypergamous and their basic premise for explaining it is that all men below alpha level over-estimate their own league Since it's OK for women to cry and use white knights to defend a point no matter how 'sexist' it is about men, but men have no such recourse, women can basically harass, intimidate and generally be very hostile towards men who don't succumb to the feminine imperative. Moreover they are basically apathetic to men who struggle on the casual sex scene and aren't jumping for joy at the thought of either commitment, a woman who's had either sexual partners than him in her past, or a woman of lower 'SMV' or even RMV.

I have so far found the best way not to resent women is to give up on the idea of ever being desired by one and treat them as platonic colleagues. I am yet to find a good solution not to fear women because gynocentrism controls academia, the professional sphere, government, online communications, the courts and the domestic realm. The law is slowly being corrupted so that the definition of rape and abuse of women is broadening exponentially, while the definition of the same towards men remains trivial.

Finally I have found that the more power a woman develops, the more that she reacts to men beneath her with the same condescension that she loathed at the hands of patriarchal chauvinists. However, to call her out as hypocrite to do so is to attack her ego, and humans have propensities to shed the blood of opponents on behalf of their ego-investments. Indeed this is the ultimate cause for all war, for without ego we'd have an even distribution of resources and ideological harmony.

I know more than I let on about how people's minds work when I talk you all, just saying.

These are just first thoughts.

hyperrreal · 2015-12-18T17:47:09+00:00

It's more fun being a user/participant than it is being a mod.

OlBastard · 2015-12-18T19:19:17+00:00

RPers seem to consist of fairly average guys who decided that they want more for themselves, and are willing to take it, regardless of this culture's assault on masculinity.

BPers on the other hand, do not seem like your average people you'd meet, but consist mostly of SJWs and die-hard liberal feminists who hate the notion of men's self-actualization.

Put those together, and you see some interesting dialogue between neomasculinity and gynocentrism. All in all, I used to be a feminist, so I enjoy seeing my world view questioned and shifted and am looking forward to another year of shenanigans.

DaThrowaway808 · 2015-12-18T17:52:33+00:00

Everyone at TBP is an individual snowflake and if you generalize them you are a bad person. TBP will then attack the individual snowflakes in TRP and generalize the group.
TRP users often have misunderstandings around SMV, RMV, Alpha and Beta.

There's more, but these stuck out the most off the top of my head.

midnightvulpine · 2015-12-18T19:34:29+00:00

I've learned that TRP is not satan. I still don't like it and wouldn't be bothered if it evaporated, but the harm it does is relatively minor. And I've learned about a host of concepts such as microagressions. Still evaluating them, but context in how people view things is useful.

sunhappydc · 2015-12-18T17:47:40+00:00

Most TRP guys are not alphas. Not even betas. But omegas in really cheap wolf's clothing purchased at their local e-flea market. its so obvious how insecure many of them are and its not remotely attractive. I'm talking even the guys who have been around for 1+ year on TRP. askMRP is even worse cuz yall grown and should know better due to being a bit more mature and experienced about life in general. Stop whining please.
Male/female nature is not OFFENSIVE because you get the short end of the stick. People need to stop moralizing reality.
Black women/Asian men have it tough in the global SMV. That's obvious. It's not an excuse to bitch about your existence.
BPers are pathological liars about their individual wants and needs. They live by one value while desiring another. I think most of them envy RP thinking but are too lazy or cowardly to accept it.
Ncount only matters for women under the age of 25. After that, the number of partners you have matters less. A lot less.
ENTPs don't know when to stop debating.
Feminism has destroyed the family unit.

pandorarosie · 2015-12-18T18:26:09+00:00

Another year over... And a new one just begun!

czerdec · 2015-12-19T00:25:06+00:00

TRP's enemies appear to be mostly dumber than rocks.

By constantly alternating between engaging in transparently dishonest debating tactics and simply flinging feces like a caged chimp, they bolster and confirm TRP's worldview in the minds of its supporters and undecided people.

This despite the fact that by calm, reasoned, adult dialogue, they could easily sow doubts in the minds of terpers. TRP is full of logical contradictions and massive holes, but to see the bloopers on PPD, you'd think it was solid as a rock.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2015-12-18T17:43:41+00:00

i have learned that i love a whole bunch of BP broads who came to the IRC and took the time to talk to me

bromance946 · 2015-12-18T22:05:13+00:00

I have learned a lot of the motivations and rationale behind TRP. Before I came on here I thought they were pretty much the demon's spawn. Now I see why there would a void in society that TRP would come in to fill.

Aerobus · 2015-12-18T22:42:13+00:00

From this subreddit, I've learned very little, apart from the fact that the other side is very much incapable of debate and rational discourse.

DStoo · 2015-12-18T23:41:59+00:00

Pretty good idea in my head who the TRPers 'are' and who they were from people I knew growing up.
Figured out how to raise my son so that he definitely didn't end up TRP.

Superfluous_Toast · 2015-12-19T02:55:59+00:00

I've learned that it doesn't matter what the truth is.

grendalor · 2015-12-19T03:31:51+00:00

I would say that I have learned, or come to the conclusion, that the fundamental disagreement is not solvable, because it is grounded in rather deep-seated worldview/life approach differences that go well beyond red pill and blue pill sexual/relationship strategies.

Blue pillers, in general, think it is wrong to engage in generalizations, regardless of their truth (although they often very much doubt their truth as well) because they see this as dehumanizing and demeaning to the individuality of each person, which, in their worldview, is basically the "prime directive" -- and (and this is key), not just in pragmatic sense, but in a moral sense. Blue pillers have an air of moral superiority about them, which is sometimes express and sometimes implied, but almost always present. It mirrors in many ways the phenomenon that Joseph Bottum describes in his book An Anxious Age.

Red pillers tend to be more pragmatic in their approach/worldview, and see generalizations (if generally true in substance) as being very useful rules of thumb to shape behavior, even if they recognize that they are not applicable to every single individual, and in every single context. The approach is pragmatic/rule-of-thumb, not categorical in practice (regardless of the popularized phrasing which can suggest that), but also not idealistic or moralistic.

This is a difference in mindset, worldview and life approach that is so fundamental that it renders it virtually impossible to have any kind of rational discussion which bears fruit between the interlocutors. It's why these threads just go round and round and round again, covering the same ground and never getting anywhere in particular -- it's two different worldviews, period. One side can't convince the other, because the entire thing is based on a deep-seated difference in worldview that shapes one's views and actions in life far beyond anything having to do with the red pill or its opposite.

Of course, this doesn't mean the entire exercise is fruitless. For while the interlocutors are generally not convincible, there are fence-sitters, lurkers and peanut gallery denizens who read and may be moved this way or that by what is said here, in ways that are hard to predict. And so it may very well have a greater purpose and impact than what is obvious from perusing the endlessly fruitless threads.

belletaco · 2015-12-18T17:42:11+00:00

I've learned people are stuck in their own experiences. They don't accept the views of others if they haven't seen it for themselves. I've also learned men love talking about rape. That's basicslly it.

NACHOaverageUnicorn · 2015-12-18T20:10:07+00:00

I've learned that RP ideology is very dangerous to men. It strips them of their complexities and paints them with a broad brush. It also feeds them a victim mentality that is very counter productive to starting a dialogue about the problems that affect men.

prodigy2throw · 2015-12-18T21:14:48+00:00

This sub really brought home the point that trp makes about how women have easy access to sex but they are more concerned with getting commitment.

MyronBlayze · 2015-12-19T00:17:07+00:00

That there are double standards everywhere, and the people imposing the double standards have a disturbing lack of self awareness.

Also, this sub makes me really sad sometimes. I'm much more of a lurker but I do read a lot of everything and I feel really, genuinely sorry for quite a few of the people on here. Their ideology and justifications for it baffles me, and I feel like quite a few people need a hug.

People almost never come here to properly debate with the potential to have their minds changed on the matter. I've seen a few commenters grow as people and seem to open up, but too many have a narrow world view that everything is just the way they see it. They don't even try to take a walk in another person's shoes, so to speak.

Gnometard · 2015-12-20T17:05:35+00:00

I've learned that people will stick to their feels over reals most of the time. The more feminine a person, the more feels are important.

Title	So what have we learned?
Author	GaiusScaevolus
Upvotes	9
Comments	167
Date	December 18, 2015 5:17 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3xd658/so_what_have_we_learned/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/so-what-have-we-learned.277750 https://theredarchive.com/post/277750

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