Am I missing something about this anti-friendzone talk?

Personage1 · 2013-05-31T15:36:57+00:00

The example you gave was very poorly written and hateful. However the core ideas were still there.

The problem with the friend-zone debate is that one half (usually women) mean one thing and the other half (usually men) mean another.

The usually women half mean someone who is friends solely to get into another person's pants. It is someone who buys into bullshit that fairy tales feed us that if you stick with someone long enough they will eventually want you. Then the person gets pissed off because they were "friendzoned" as if they deserve sex or a relationship simply because of x, y, and z. Everyone should be against this idea that people are simple enough that if you only do these three things you can get sex.

The usually men half mean someone who takes advantage of the fact that another person has feelings for them, or leads people on. Everyone should be against people who use others in this way.

Both cases happen all the time, especially among high schoolers and college kids. In both cases people need to grow up/learn to be a better person.

Moo2400 · 2013-05-31T15:29:17+00:00

There is some truth to the backlash against the concept of the friend zone, but I get the sense some people take it way too far. It's as if they assume that the guy who gets friend zoned is only after sex and has been from the very start, and is trying to manipulate / guilt her into it. I'm sure you'll find a few cases like that out there, but from most of what I've seen, it's really not. Most guys I've known who were friend zoned appear to lack the confidence to somehow make his intentions / interest in her (usually romantically, as opposed to just sexually) clear. And it's further compounded by the fact that they tend to chase after women who are relatively inexperienced with relationships and dating, and may not have yet fully opened themselves up to such possibilities. As a result, they tend to be rather naive (as is often the guy as well to be fair) in that they don't realize a guy trying to talk to her and hang out with her all the time might possibly like her as more than just a friend, and that her wanting to do the same may give the false impression to him that she may have a romantic interest.

I tend to put more of the blame on the person getting friend zoned rather than the person friend zoning him. Clearly there are some people who exploit a guy's romantic interests in her for her own benefit when she doesn't reciprocate in a rather manipulative way, but I think in most cases she just doesn't return the interest. And that's perfectly fine. You can't force the chemistry between two people to work, and unfortunately a lot of guys often feel that can given the (very bad) way dating is portrayed in the media.

andreipmbcn · 2013-05-31T14:42:18+00:00

It has nothing to do with confidence in some cases. Some men (myself included) just don't want to form loving bonds with people they do not value for their character, and don't want to have sex with anyone with whom they have not established a loving bond. The people who put (TM) after the words "nice guy" are simply the kind who grumble "you're no better than me" about everyone who has actual values.

LonelySOB · 2013-05-31T21:46:49+00:00

I've been waiting to say this for awhile but I haven't found the appropriate place. The friendzone doesn't exist in actuality, it is simply our way of describing the pure hypocrisy of the way some people (this isn't exclusive to just women) think/act.

To see what I am saying you first have to understand that the friendzone isn't a place that a someone puts you in. But it goes deeper than that, and to understand that you need to understand the context of most people who are in the friendzone. As an example let me give a snippet from my past. A couple years ago there was a girl I liked, smart, funny, gorgeous. Now I had massive self esteem issues back then that I have slowly gotten over, so I can understand why I wasn't a very dateable person, but this girl would not stop bitching about how her boyfriend were all douchebags that never treated her right. Well this always killed me because I was always kind to her and always listened. We were good friends and I always liked her so one day I asked her out. I turned into the laughing stock of school and when I asked why it was so terrible that I asked her out people said because I was a loser.

Now the reason for this example is to illustrate the key underlying hypocrisy. The hypocrisy is the fact that she bitched nonstop about the fact her boyfriend was a massive douche and how she hated that so much and just wanted to date someone nice for once, but when confronted with the option of being with someone who was always nice to her she rejected the chance because of superficial reasons (the fact that I was a loser).

Now many of you will say there must have been other factors like the fact that I must have been unattractive or just the fact that I had self esteem issues as to the reason for why she wouldn't date me and you aren't wrong. Now I'm not unattractive (from what many others have told me) so I can't be absolutely repulsive to the other sex so much so that i couldn't get a date. So the point I am getting at is that even though she said she didn't want to date douchebags she would rather continue to date them rather than the nice guy that was always there for her because she "thought of me as a friend" when the reality is she just out more value on looks and confidence as well as social status rather than actually wanting a nice guy.

So the existence of the "friendzone" is caused not by someone not wanting to lose your friendship or that they couldn't date you because of other feelings, it simply comes down to the fact that the person doing the "friend zoning" simply puts more value in their SO having certain traits rather than their SO being nice to them.

My bottom line is I just don't want to hear anyone bitch anymore about dating shitty people because more often than not they have a person that truly cares about them that they won't date because of some flaw (like not being confident enough, attractive enough, etc) and yet they still continue to bitch about bring mistreated. Seriously? You need to realize your hypocrisy and make a decision or stfu.

Also this isn't exclusive to women, men do the same thing. So just remember don't bitch about it if you don't really care because you will send mixed messages and hurt someone who didn't deserve to be hurt by your stupid shallowness.

SteelCrossx · 2013-05-31T15:21:48+00:00

The indignation people have about the concept of "friendzoning" is regarding the mindset that friendzonees appear to have; that if they treat a girl a certain way - the way in which they were taught is "nice" behaviour - then they are entitled to win her affection, following which, complaints seem to stem from people thinking that they did not get what they were owed.

This mindset is offensive in a few ways, first of all being that the girl in question's choice is removed from the engagement. Regardless if she wants to make shitty choices, neglecting her right to do so is inconsiderate.

This is just my interpretation, and in no way do they reflect what tumblrians have to say about the matter. I sincerely hope tumblr has little influence over our collective cultural values, and anyone that responds to a polite invitation to a conversation with a harsh evaluation of your physical appearance is frankly not worth anyone's time.

SteveHanJobs · 2013-05-31T15:49:03+00:00

You should really look up GWW on youtube, I watched her video on friendzoning the other day and it blew me away. She actually brings to light a lot of the issues with insensitivity, and disrespect towards men that are involved in that scenario. Though, not all situations are the same I am sure, she really gets to the root of it and even how it relates to modern day feminism.

typhonblue · 2013-05-31T15:04:40+00:00

Apparently the only people allowed to have sex are those who are 100% upfront about wanting to sleep with another person.

I wonder if it's ever occurred to these people that some(most, many?) men get to know a woman to determine if they want to have sex with her.

RedditBlueit · 2013-05-31T14:23:07+00:00

Remember these are the same women who'll tell you men only want one thing after the hot guy pumps and dumps them.

CrossHook · 2013-05-31T15:47:53+00:00

Both sides are wrong. Guys who complain about being "friendzoned" have a fundamental misunderstanding of the sexual game between men and women and how it is played. In their defense, they have been misled because society has taught them that it isn't a game, but that if they are just decent and honest and kind enough that women will be attracted to them. This misunderstanding is addressed by Game Theory within the PUA community, but the problem is further compounded by women who claim that all men who use Game are misogynists, thus forcing these well-intentioned but misled men back into the white-knight/damsel paradigm that serves to benefit no one.

On the other hand, women are increasingly being taught that they are entitled to sex from men. Sexual harassment from women towards men is even encouraged and applauded as "sexual empowerment."

Frankly, I'm disgusted. Men need to read up on game and stop complaining. This is the equivalent of you whining when I beat you at basketball. I won because I practiced. So practice this game if you want to win. Hell you don't even know the rules yet...

And women need to stop shaming men for seeking to understand what women are attracted to. Their fear of a loss of control over the dating game is understandable but not excusable. And furthermore, you ladies need to keep your fucking hands to yourselves. You don't get to complain about sexual harassment and then grope some guy when you get drunk.

Moral of the story is: Quit telling other people what to do. Decide what you want and then figure out how to get it within the laws of our society.

ChokinMrElmo · 2013-05-31T17:58:04+00:00

I can understand where the poster is coming. In their eyes, the friendzonee is being nice just to get into the girl's pants. They're being manipulative.

So it's understandable to be critical of the behavior- much in the same way we would be critical of a woman manipulating a man with her sexuality in order to get things done for her.

2013-05-31T16:18:42+00:00

They think they know better than the people involved themselves, what their circumstances and experiences are.

That's all there is to it; that, plus a lot of horny single men on reddit doing anything they can for female approval.

kmmeerts · 2013-05-31T16:47:57+00:00

I think it's an American thing. The friendzone is totally not as controversial a concept on the other side of the ocean I think. I'm not sociologist, but it seems to me it has something to do with women not being allowed to express their desire for sex, and men being told they should be Nice^® to women.

I silently assume a woman who expresses her dislike for friendzoning is frustrated in some way.

noodleworm · 2013-05-31T22:06:40+00:00

I always thought the point of anti-friendzone talk was more referring to the guys who rant at length about the rejection, and speak about how they deserve it because they were nice.

I think its due to a sort of insecurity, that some women have been give the whole "men only want one thing" (Thank you abstinence-only education >.<) idea. Since some friendzone rants imply; "I was only nice to her to get in her pants, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered" (not all, but some). I think what they want is guys to just be more OK with being turned down. and not throw a fit about how its she'd the villain for choosing not to date you.

Anyways, I understand your probably pretty frustrated dude. But being nice is something your kind of just expected to do to other humans. It's no guarantee, a lot of girls go on to date male friends, But its not really fair to hate her for exercising her right to free will.

RedBjorn · 2013-05-31T19:58:46+00:00

What you are missing is that if you are behaving in a certain way because you think it will result in sex, then you are attempting rape by fraud. You are also missing the fact being nice for sex is a PUA tactic, it is impossible to shame one without shaming the other. And the point of shaming it isn't to encourage people to change tactics, its to encourage them to present themselves honestly, without expectation of reward, and to respect the other person's agency. The only reason people should alter their behaviors toward another is to respect that person's boundaries, not penetrate them.

RubixCubeDonut · 2013-05-31T15:06:37+00:00

'Anti-Friendzoning is Anti-men' in today's social climate.

It's no surprise all the nice guys out there are beginning to wake up and smell the bullshit, especially when they're constantly mocked and attacked by women for being beta doormats. Women had their opportunity to let nice guys thrive, but they fucked it up.

PUA is the natural reaction to this, and while it can be bad occassionally, more often than not it promotes healthy sexual attitudes between both sexes.

philosarapter · 2013-05-31T18:32:48+00:00

I think the problem with many of these 'friendzone' complaints are really because some men are infatuated with their female friend but never have the guts to make a move and so he accepts a 'friendship', because its better than nothing, or so he thinks. However those unrequited emotions well up inside of him until he begins to resent her.

But there is certainly something to be said for the cultural conditioned expectations we teach boys growing up. We have this concept of chivalry, this archetype of a polite superhero, who helps others out and asks for nothing in return. We are taught that we ought to treat women with kindness.

Which is all well and good until you want to actually seduce a woman into bed or to become your girlfriend. While that kindness is great, it won't take you even 10% of the way to scoring or landing a relationship with someone. And I think some men don't understand this. They believe that if they are kind enough, that eventually she'll develop feelings, but it doesn't work out that way. Sexual attraction is triggered from the moment two people lay eyes on each other. If its not there then, its unlikely to develop from you performing kind acts.

dungone · 2013-05-31T21:22:13+00:00

"You should want to be nothing more than a friend if you legitimately wanted to be more than a friend."

"I can't believe you would stop doing unreciprocated favors that I want just because I won't do anything for you that you want!"

"As my friend, you should make yourself sparse because I just saw a cute guy over there and I want him to talk to me!"

"I'm sorry, you can't come along because it's 'girls' night out' and you're just a guy friend. I'll be bonding with my actual friends and trying to pick up other men."

"If I have sex with you because I was lonely, I get to tell you that it was just a charity fuck and you're just a friend. But when you pay for our dinner, it's because I'm a girl and you owe me for sleeping with you. Ooooh look at that cute guy over there!!! Wow... okay, so anyway, what was I saying? You need to respect me and stop trying to get in my pants."

"Friendship means it's my inherent right to tell you what you need to do for me and what I'm going to do for you in return."

OuiCrudites · 2013-05-31T17:00:08+00:00

Here's where this tumult comes from - Our culture, primarily due to feminists and social conservatives, have foisted dirty lies onto several generations about what women want in men. Basically, everything men have been taught about what women want is steaming piles of caca. They did this to demonize male sexuality, make men more easily manipulated, and place women on undeserved moral pedestals. Due to the manosphere, their lies are burning like vampires in the sun.

Rather than acknowledging that they are manipulative liars with an agenda, they are killing the messengers and trying to shame lid of pandora's box back shut. They don't want men to awaken to the fact that women desire dominant, uncompromising men and resent chivalrous nice guys.

PeterArching · 2013-05-31T18:33:42+00:00

Apparently the only people allowed to have sex are those who are 100% upfront about wanting to sleep with another person.

I'm pretty sure they despise players too. Only men women have decided will get laid should get laid, and men are FUCKING SCUM if they try to change their ranking.

Imagine if we had the same reaction to make-up, push-up bras, high heels, nose jobs, boob jobs, anti-wrinkle cream, bikini waxing, wigs, etc.

Irrelevant_Tosser · 2013-06-01T02:48:48+00:00

There is a big difference between men who get friendzoned by women who genuinely did not send off any signals of sexual interest, and the men who get friendzoned by women who intentionally lead men on until they reciprocate, and react by deliberately shaming those men into submission. I think that much of the anger is from men who got friendzoned by the latter category, so I want to discuss the women who intentionally lead men on.

These women will tell these men that they are not interested. This part is true. What they don't say is that they did send out those signals that they were interested, but it was toward the goal of manipulating those men for their own benefit. They want to keep the relationship in that nice zone where the man gives them things, but they want to pay as little back as they have to. The half truth comes in when the woman tells the man that he has mixed up the signals.

If you disregard the emotional consequences, it is a simple matter of economics. If you include the emotional consequences, the man will most likely doubt his ability to read signals from women in the future, because he believes that it is his ability to read signals which is faulty, and not that the signals themselves were intentionally misleading. Going back to the economics, the woman risks losing the gifts from those men when the man reciprocates, and the best strategy for salvaging her beneficial relationship is to attack the very beliefs he had about her signals.

The man now has to choose what to do. He might feel like he is abandoning a real friend if he decides to stop being her friend, unless he finally sees through her manipulation. Seeing through her manipulation may not be the easiest thing to do, however. He may move back into his friendzoned position, where he can at least fantasize that she still likes him (that is, if she continues to send out her false signals), feeling like that is all he is ever going to get from her. This builds up into a self hatred. If she stops sending out those signals as a punishment for him not knowing his place, there is still opportunity for him to see her past manipulations.

Every time that I hear women use the phrase "men are not entitled to sex from a woman just because she is nice to him," it makes me want to say that "that is true, but women likewise are not entitled friendship or gifts from men (to be clear when I say gifts, I not only include monetary gifts, but also gifts of emotional support)."

TL;DR: I may be wrong in assuming it is a woman who wrote this, but under that assumption, this looks like a classic attack of any man in order to excuse her own bad behavior. Manipulative women like this irritate the shit out of me, this is why.

Edit: Note: I don't think this is how most women act. I think is a small number of what I will call "emotional predators." The problem is that the few leave a large impact on the mind of the men they screw over. I don't even believe that manipulation in itself has to be harmful, there are even ways to manipulate others that are mutually beneficial. I am talking about manipulation where most of the benefit is gained by one party to the detriment of the other.

Moxiecontin · 2013-05-31T15:46:39+00:00

Are you a man who's been nice to me, listened to me, gone out to movies and for coffee with me and generally been a good friend for a long time? Nice. Are you disappointed and maybe a bit bitter when I start dating another man? Okay, that's understandable, I get that. But it's what happens after that that makes the difference between a "Nice Guy" and a friend. Do you maybe have a talk with me about how you feel and then continue acting like my friend when I don't decide to date you because the only thing that's changed about me is my relationship status? Congratulations! You're my friend! Sure, maybe we spend a little bit less time together, but we can still hang out and talk about all the old stuff! Or do you go the other way when I reject your romantic advances? Do you shut me out and post passive-aggressive facebook posts about "whores" and "backstabbing whores" and "stupid sluts who'll come crawling back one day"? Do you make it clear that now that there is no option to fuck me I am essentially worthless as an acquaintance to you? And after all the work you put in too! Why, you talked with me like I was a human person after all, that's quite a bit of hard fucking work isn't it? Pretending that I was an interesting person whose company you enjoyed! You have become a "Nice Guy".

Do you see the difference? DO YOU SEE?

IHaveALargePenis · 2013-05-31T14:54:08+00:00

It's just retards bashing on men because it's popular right now. It happens to both genders but people don't go around shaming women for complaining. For example, did he date you? Screw you? He stopped calling? Well get over it, he's not interested in a relationship with you. But nobody would ever say that to women.

And yes being attractive and confident is a HUGE deal. This guy pretty much sexually assaults this girl, but she's into it. And there's other videos on his channel, picking up girls who are taken or even on the way to meet their boyfriend. None seem to mind giving him their numbers and arranging a meetup at a later date.

rightsbot · 2013-05-31T13:56:17+00:00

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TheJames69 · 2013-05-31T16:16:38+00:00

These people are little more than bullies, and unassertive men are an easy target.

TehGinjaNinja · 2013-05-31T17:37:51+00:00

Do they not even consider the male perspective at all?

No they don't. A far as most feminists seem to be concerned "the male perspective" completely lacks all legitimacy.

Even bringing it up is probably evidence of "patriarchy" and "rape culture" or something like that.

rottingchrist · 2013-05-31T17:55:01+00:00

Basically, the overwhelming majority of women are incapable of empathizing with men's problems.

To them a guy shouldn't complain about his problems, just fix them.

So, you're really looking for understanding where there isn't any.

As an example, my own mother. I love her dearly, we get along very well and I hardly remember ever having a serious argument with her. But I will not talk to her about things that bother me, even though she has been making me to listen to even her trivial everyday annoyances since I was 4 years old. I tried looking for some understanding a couple of times when I was a teen, expecting her to reciprocate, but she pretty much told me that it's up to me to fix my issues barely 5 sentences into the conversation.

She is nice in every other way. Perhaps excessively so.

But the capacity to empathize with males just isn't there. Nothing you can do about it. All you can do is accept it and move on.

Xenoith · 2013-05-31T16:40:33+00:00

[permanently deleted]

AnnArchist · 2013-05-31T23:10:04+00:00

the 'friendzone' talk is stupid.

If you got game, take my girl.

If you don't. Sit on the fucking sidelines. Fucking aint a right. Its not the girls job or responsibility to fuck you. Its on you to get laid.

Title	Am I missing something about this anti-friendzone talk?
Author	Xenoith
Upvotes	46
Comments	153
Date	May 31, 2013 1:55 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1fejbd/am_i_missing_something_about_this_antifriendzone/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/am-i-missing-something-about-this-anti-friendzone.1172434 https://theredarchive.com/post/1172434

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