I don't know where else to turn.

Quarkster · 2013-06-25T16:25:09+00:00

Whenever I see my daughter now, she immediately tells me, "Daddy, I don't want to go back to Mommy's house. I want to go night night at daddy's house." She literally has anxiety attacks over it.

Child protective services. Call them.

IlleFacitFinem · 2013-06-25T15:02:37+00:00

Dude. I know I can't help much, im just a teenager. But you sound like an incredible father. Voluntarily paying that much child support is astonishing. You are a great man.

Best advice I can give is keep written documentation of ALL of this. Date it and all that formal stuff. Record your conversations with both the ex and the daughter (discreetly if you can, its useful in court) I assume the biggest thing for you is actually being allowed visitation with your daughter. Once you get enough evidence, show it to your attorney and ask him if it helps. Those are just a few things I've picked up from reading MRA posts and legal AMAs.

Best of luck, man. I'm rooting for you.

punishedfather · 2013-06-25T15:12:16+00:00

Thank you. I only wanted the best for my daughter.

It was never about the money with me. I would gladly give away most of my income as long as it was spent to my daughter's benefit. I just want to be able to see my daughter and be there for her growing up.

Regarding documentation and such: I've documented everything. Being that Florida is a two-party state, I can't record telephone conversations without her consent (which she obviously won't give me). My attorney isn't willing to do anything without payment (I do understand where he's coming from; he's not a charity.)

I'm just completely falling apart at the seams right now. I just want to be able to be a part of my daughter's life. She wants to see me too, but it just looks like I'm going to lose her. All because I'm under-employed.

iuminati · 2013-06-25T15:29:30+00:00

What does your divorce decree say about overnights? If it lists any, call the sheriff the next time she denies you an overnight. Make a paper trail. If she is being abused call Child Protective Services at the first sign. You need a non biased third party to see what is happening.

I do not understand why an attorney is going to charge you 15,000 for something like this. Any violation of that divorce decree is an easy court date. A few hours of an attorney's time.

Sasha_ · 2013-06-25T15:27:55+00:00

Well first of all my heart goes out to you and as much as it means anything from an anonymous stranger on the internet, I truly wish you the very best.

OK here goes. Believe it or not, it WILL get better. That's the first thing to believe. You sound like an awesome father. You may find some help dealing with your BPD ex over at ashrink4men.com - Dr Palmatier is a star in the mens rights movement and has helped many men in similar situations.

You sound as though you're dealing with depression and anxiety. See a doctor about this.

I believe this is also affecting your perspective. You mention the babysitter 'taking her side'. Who gives a fuck what the babysitter thinks? A babysitter should be doing as she's told and keeping the fuck out of domestics that don't concern her. You hear any more of that shit and you tell her that if she lies in a depostion you'll have no compunction about charging her with perjury.

As for the lawyer - I just don't know enough about the U.S legal system. Can't you tell him you can afford to pay in installments? Maybe go to the sub that offers legal advice or something.

Your ex sounds like a fucking whacko. Get your lawyer to send her a demand to have a breakdown of what she's spending the child support on, because it sounds like she's not spending it on the kids. If she's a racist try and get some of that shit on tape. Tape everything.

Go on the warpath. There's too many idiots who'll tell you it's a lost cause - it's not. Get in there and fuck her up. Does she work? Who does she work for? If she's a whacko you won't be the only one she's fucked over - she'll be up to no good in some other area or another you mark my fucking words. Find out what it is.

Remember, don't ask: demand. Your daughter's school won't hand over legal records? Go to a judge and get a court order. Make the fuckers spend some money, that concentrates minds wonderfully. Tie every fucker involved up in so much legal red tape they'll wish they'd never heard of you.

And don't make threats, just ask questions - "Hmm...that's interesting. Do you think there might be some legal consequences to you doing that?" Or my personal favourite when my ex threatens me is to fix her with a steady gaze and say 'Really? You know I think that would be very brave."

Look, ultimately what I'm saying is that despite what you read on here, what you're actually dealing with is just a mad bitch, and that's eminently dealable with. Awkward for sure, draining? Definitely. But really - you can do this.

Bohica69 · 2013-06-25T16:47:06+00:00

You've learned a few valuable lessons:

No good deed goes unpunished. You were a chump and easy.
It's much easier to be fair and reasonable when you negotiate with your foot on her neck, figuratively speaking. You gave up all your advantages.

punishedfather · 2013-06-25T20:23:47+00:00

You are a hero dude. I don't know how you can survive under this level of bullcrap. The men's right movement isn't going to get anywhere until we have some lawyers on our side. Or at the very least some sort of big foundation that will pay lawyers.

If I wasn't broke (I work part time as a bouncer and the rest of the time on whatever odd jobs I can find) I'd try to help you out financially. This situation is fucked up. It's a shame you ever agreed to help support your loser of an ex-wife. :(

Remember guys, you owe your ex-wife nothing. Be there for your kids but your ex you should be prepared to let hang from a rope if that is her fate.

thekarma · 2013-06-25T21:13:55+00:00

Marriage is a bad idea these days

miseri6325 · 2013-06-25T15:59:48+00:00

Classic male privilege.

ChokinMrElmo · 2013-06-25T16:29:17+00:00

Seeing as how the support you've been giving is largely uncalled for, my suggestion would be to fight fire with fire. If she doesn't want to give you the overnights you've been allotted, don't give her the extra money. Pay what the court order states and nothing more. Make it crystal clear that you will not pay more until she starts abiding to the order. I say this because this woman sees you as one giant dollar sign. If that dollar sign diminishes, she'll try to get you to continue paying the amount you did before. When she does, she'll threaten you with everything she can. If you can make her see that it will be easier (and less risky) to just follow the order, she will follow the path of least resistance. If she refuses to do that still, then take her to court for full custody.

Bear in mind that you should seriously stop paying that extra money right now. If you're paying more than the court order mandates, you're paying for her defense. If you stop paying extra, and she can't afford to provide your daughter with a good home, then that plays right into your hand. Your daughter may suffer for a few months - a year, but it will be beneficial in the long run.

I would look into finding low cost/ pro bono lawyers for this situation. I've heard that there are some federally funded programs to help people who can't afford a lawyer in situations like this.

Push-Pull · 2013-06-25T17:59:28+00:00

I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this. I hate to look at it from this perspective, but you should be taking a lot of notes on all this. Keep them well organized. This is not only if it should matter to a court, but at some point, if your daughter has been truly poisoned against you, you may be able to present these and a heart felt letter to her after she has come of age and let her know that her best interests were truly all you cared about. This would be a way to at least try to show her how much you thought of her well being.

Best of luck to you. I wish you well.

Trash_Golem · 2013-06-25T20:08:10+00:00

As a child who was in a situation very similar to this one (abusive bi-polar mother obsessively keeping me away from a divorced father), this really gets to me. I wish my dad had cared this much about my well being, and had fought this hard for custody. You sound like a great father. When I was little, I tried to communicate your daughter's sentiments to my own father, but he didn't take me this seriously or try this hard. I didn't take any of the steps required to get away from my mother because I felt my father didn't care enough or didn't want me with him. It wasn't until I left my mother's home (on very bad terms) and begun living on my own that I realized how much information my mother kept from him, how little he really knew, and how much the legal system had fought him. It still pains me to think of all those horrible years I could have avoided if we'd worked together to change my custody situation. I know it's messed up that the kid needs to do anything at all, but that's the sad reality of our bad family court system.

My advice to you is to take your daughter's testimonies as evidence to support a transference of custody. Get her real, honest wishes down somewhere. Don't coach her, ask her honestly, "Where do you want to live?". Record it, seriously! Attach the sound file to an e-mail to CPS if you need to. Don't be afraid to be a little bit brash and informal. Do everything you can to break through that wall of bureaucracy and expose this crazy woman for the abusive, horrible parent she is. I know this sounds cold, but use what she says as a weapon to break her free. Your ex-wife has already been using underhanded tactics either way. If everything you said in this post is true, then in my opinion you'll be doing the right thing.

And please, keep us updated on your situation.

ANUS_CONE · 2013-06-25T21:28:12+00:00

She is bi-polar and suffers from Borderline personality disorder.

My counselor says that there has been such a huge spike in bipolar/bpd diagnoses in women the last 10 years that she questions the legitimacy of the practice any more. "There just can't be that many people with this one specific personality disorder."

I don't really think it's a coincidence. Society is just enabling women to have the types of behaviors associated with NPD/BPD, so a lot of them are. Direct cause/effect relationship, in my honest opinion.

2013-06-25T20:27:56+00:00

It's devastating.

Yep. I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes at that. Your poor little girl.

I'd get in touch with these folk: https://www.nationalparentsorganization.org/. They used to be "Fathers and Families" and probably know a lawyer that will take you on.

Best of luck.

SarcastiCock · 2013-06-25T15:58:07+00:00

My only advice to you is to consider self representing and arranging a deal with a lawyer for occaisonal advice and filings. The system is set up to make you broke before anything is ever resolved, only the rich can afford any sense of justice.

Get your support lowered to what it should be and don't be so generous unless there are definite actions on your exes part that are deserving of reward.

KingOfEggsAndBacon · 2013-06-25T16:49:16+00:00

This is not really advice for you right now, but document everything.

And one day give it to your daughter, so that she might know what was done to her.

j5c077 · 2013-06-25T17:45:17+00:00

what kind of custody agreement do you have where it can be denied? sounds like you need to get regular physical custody in place, and if you already have that, you need to get the police involved whenever she tells you no. if you have a court ordered custody agreement, you cannot be denied.

also, you should have (or atleast should now) file for a reduction in your support if your financial circumstances have changed.

2013-06-25T18:04:29+00:00

Note: I have no legal experiance whatsoever, this is just what I would do in your situation.

Firstly, unless you are court ordered to pay the extra money, stop paying it. Don't directly be confrontational, but if she wants to be a bitch, show her what she gets for it.

Secondly. It sounds like every time you try to escalate the case (which seems like the right thing to do), she overreacts. Before she is successful and gets you thrown in jail or held in contempt of court for a technicality, I'd stop the case for a year or so. Will it suck? Absolutely. But unless you've made significant progress (and it sounds like you haven't), it might be a better idea to regroup and continue documenting every sketchy/illegal thing your ex does. It sounds like you could use a much better lawyer, if you drop this iteration of the case, you should look for a better one during that time. With a better lawyer, extensive documentation, and more money to spend on the case, you should have a better chance.

also, /r/legal or /r/legaladvice might be able to help you out with this. Best of luck man, this sucks, but it WILL get better.

punishedfather · 2013-06-25T19:22:45+00:00

One minor thought is to look into if your daughter's school has a parent's association you could join. This might allow you to spend some more time with your daughter and will show the court that you want to be involved in your child's life and welfare.

I have some experience with women with BPD and when they decide to hate someone, it is some of the most cold, calculated, but intense hatred I can imagine. She will not hesitate to hurt you in any way she can, no matter the cost to your daughter.

The only way you will ever get help is to keep asking. Keep calling the police when she denies you court ordered visitation. Keep calling CPS and expressing concern for your daughter's welfare. Look up Parental Alienation Syndrome and express your concerns of this to CPS. Read up as much as you can about family law in your state. Look for father's rights organizations that may be able to offer assistance.

I wish you luck. For your daughter's sake, never give up.

Perpetual_dissident · 2013-06-25T23:25:40+00:00

These kind of stories break my fucking heart, while simultaneously make make me mad at men who insist to play the "amighty man" who can take charge of her daughter, her ex wife, and the whole fucking universe. Wake the fuck up.

punishedfather · 2013-06-25T23:47:21+00:00

[permanently deleted]

HoundDogs · 2013-06-26T04:10:41+00:00

This fucking system has to change. This is just horrifying. An entire generation of children are being stolen form their fathers.

zeroexe43 · 2013-06-25T21:03:53+00:00

If you open a kickstarter or something like that I would be very willing to donate a bit of money. With everyone on here we might be able to help a little bit. Otherwise keep up being such a great dad.

Shmearwavelvl2 · 2013-06-25T20:45:36+00:00

Malicious Mother Syndrome, Parental Alienation Syndrome...do your research, get an attorney who understands these issues and can get your CS reset, get the court / councillors involved and document everything, no more verbal communication with combative ex, put all communication with ex in writing...just a few tips from someone who has navigated the same waters. Good luck

Clausewitz1996 · 2013-06-25T18:19:14+00:00

Record your daughter having a panic attack and march into the CPS office. That's certainly evidence of some form of abuse.

AtheistConservative · 2013-06-25T18:42:37+00:00

My heart truly goes out to you, and I'm sorry you have to deal with this horseshit. I know a bit about what you are going through, and you have all of my sympathy.

When you say that you have gone to the police, who does that mean? Your local city police? Maybe a sheriff will be more sympathetic and useful. Keep calling CPS. I know they are useless, but it creates a beneficial paper trail.

Is there anyone who will give you a loan? You need a new lawyer.

Witnesses are like tape recorders that don't need two party consent. If your wife drops some really racist shit on you in front of someone else, having a witness who can back that up will really help.

You and your daughter need to see psychiatrists. I know it's expensive, but it's necessary.

You mentioned losing your job because of this. Can you elaborate? Also can you do your job on the side? In the same vein, you sound like you are smart and have some skills. Maybe you can get some under the table work. For instance fixing most computer issues isn't hard, and getting some extra cash under the table can really help things out.

Protect your self from allegations. Have witnesses up the ass on everything.

punishedfather · 2013-06-25T23:31:50+00:00

Awe damn, I wish I could give sound advice on this. Have you tried mentioning your concerns about your child's health to anyone capable of mandating a court order for Child protection Services?

What state/province/country judicial system are you under? I'm sure some redditors can help dig up some ideas with the details concerning your case.

holierthanmao · 2013-06-26T02:23:35+00:00

If the child custody agreement was adopted and ordered by a court, then you must file a contempt of court complaint when your ex-wife violates the court order.

If the custody arrangement was not court ordered but is completely voluntary, then you need to file for custody in court. After you have a court order, file contempt of court proceedings every time the order is violated.

Those are the two possible answers. Do not bother with the police; instead go to court. Calling CPS is absurd unless there is actually evidence of abuse.

rj75 · 2013-06-26T02:32:10+00:00

Hey punishedfather, sorry you're going through this. I've been through a very similar situation. Fortunately for me, I ended up on top, with full physical custody, weekend visitations by the mother, joint legal, no child support, no alimony and she pays me 25% of expenses. I don't live in Florida, so YMMV.

Here are a few things that I found enormously helpful in my years of legal struggles:

1) Keep a log of everything that happens. All communications. All text messages. Write down anything she says to you in person, on the phone. Every single missed custody. Every time she's late. Etc. etc. etc. Use your IT skills to organize the information.

2) Put together a legal argument yourself. Whatever lawyer you hire is going to be lazy, and not worth the money you pay them, for the most part, but will understand the process. You need to understand the law yourself, and define the battleground. Also, a $15k retainer seems really high. I would shop around.

3) Get a custody evaluation. This is an independent third party, agreed upon by both parties, who will look at detailed evidence from both parties on everything they bring to him/her. This was the deciding factor in my case. The custody evaluator said my ex was negligent and incompetent because she was obviously neglegent and incompetent and lied etc. etc. The court listens carefully to custody evaluators. Your crazy ex won't be able to help herself from being crazy. Your ex and her attourney will fight this. Figure out how to persuade the judge that this is necessary (e.g. because there is to much conflicting information for the court to evaluate). If you get this, in all likelyhood, you will win. Pay for it if you must (~$4000), but try to get the judge to order a split with the ex.

4) Follow the court order to the letter. Do not listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. If one party is following the court order, and the other is not, the court will eventually realize what is going on. And you don't want there to be any question of who is in contempt of court. Unfortunately, the court is in your business for now. It will get less and less over time, but for now, assume everything you do will be presented in court in the worst possible light, plus a bunch of made up shit (that's what the log is for).

Chin up, dude. You can do this. Your ex is having an epic tantrum, and she's clearly disturbed and power drunk. She is violating the law, and with persistent drive towards the best interest of your daughter, you can see you daughter a whole lot.

Ding_batman · 2013-06-26T07:08:33+00:00

I have nothing to offer except my encouragement.

betaprime · 2013-06-26T07:25:09+00:00

pro bono legal aid.

damnbiker · 2013-06-26T09:21:30+00:00

The title of this post alone is proof that men do need a "male safe" place to turn for support. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything that can help your situation. You trusted your ex to stick to an agreement and hold up her end of the bargain and she didn't. You have also provided her with the benefit of an extra $2000 a month of disposable income that can easiy go toward legal fees to work against you.

If nothing else, we can add to the collective knowledge being massed here, learn and help those to follow. Money is an important source of power. If you want to do right by your child, then do it yourself, don't trust an ex with that power. Pay what you are legally required to pay and add in anything extra from there. Your daughter would have been absolutely better off if you had the extra $2000 a month to fight the temporary legal battle to ensure that she would still be a part of your life.

Hindsight is 20/20 in these cases, don't beat yourself up too much over it, do what you can to be a part of your child's life. You're in damage control mode now, and that's probably all you can do.

rightsbot · 2013-06-25T14:20:18+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

chrispdx · 2013-06-25T17:18:34+00:00

I have nothing to add other than deep sympathy to your plight and a cautionary tale to other men to not "stick their dick in crazy".

Remember, this is all about your daughter. Nothing else matters.

SFGrippy · 2013-06-26T07:10:03+00:00

Here's some things to consider:

Google Tom Leykis Show
Get a new lawyer

mvrk10256 · 2013-06-25T20:19:18+00:00

Maybe I am missing something, and maybe this is illegal. But the next time you are legally supposed to have her spend time with you. Go there. Take her (your ex doesnt seem overly protective) and let her stay with you. Take some action, grow some balls. Find a non scumbag lawyer (its FL so good luck).

Lolthien · 2013-06-25T21:09:14+00:00

There is nothing your lawyer can do about this? The 2K was predicated on certain parental rights.... if you are disallowed those rights, she is disallowed the money. I don't understand how a lawyer can't help you with this.

Foreskin_Jizz_Bomb · 2013-06-25T16:49:29+00:00

You should just take her and leave the country.

Phototoxin · 2013-06-25T18:38:44+00:00

You have no realtionship with your daughter and are being screwed. Don't pay and leave the country.

Super_delicious · 2013-06-25T19:47:56+00:00

You need to get mean and show that bitch you're not a doormat. Stop paying extra money and get a better lawyer.

punishedfather · 2013-06-25T17:12:17+00:00

[permanently deleted]

BlackLock- · 2013-06-25T20:18:14+00:00

Call child services. That is what you do. Report this to CPS and go to the police and tell them your ex is doing this, and ask if they can enforce the divorce agreement. Also, stop paying child support immediately. Your ex is in violation of the custody agreement, and as such you are no longer legally bound to uphold your end either.

Tastysalad101 · 2013-06-25T22:29:59+00:00

If this would me i'd prob think fuck it and just kill her even if i go to prison the daughter will still end up in a better place than shes at now

Title	I don't know where else to turn.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	219
Comments	194
Date	June 25, 2013 2:18 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1h1dsg/i_dont_know_where_else_to_turn/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-dont-know-where-else-to-turn.1170220 https://theredarchive.com/post/1170220

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