How do we know what's natural to each gender, and what is the cause of society?

MidoriEgg · 2024-01-03T18:19:32+00:00

I think human behaviour is very flexible, I think that’s why we where able to spread so far across the planet and live in such varied environments and build such different cultures. I think our flexibility and skills at adaptation are one of our greatest assets.

There may be some behaviours and roles that are more innate in certain genders but they aren’t set in stone; there are individuals who have personality traits more associated with the opposite gender. Even aside from that, a very masculine man can be nurturing and caring to his kids, a feminine woman can be fierce and aggressive to protect her family. A good example is WW2, where women went to work in ammunition factories and take over the male roles in situations where they had to.

While men may take the lead with ‘expanding and conquering’ it’s worth noting that you can’t really do that without both genders. Before the known gender roles where in place in caveman times, men and women (and children) where travelling across the world together.

So while I would say men and women are different and tend to have different strengths and weaknesses it’s reductive to hold that in too tight a box and limit yourself based on your gender.

Makuta_Servaela · 2024-01-03T19:03:36+00:00

however when a man is in the family, why does the man usually provide?

Even for a Stay-At-Home mom, the woman still provides, she just doesn't usually provide as much financially (money being unnatural to humans, anyway). Instead she provides structure, a clean home, guidance for the children, etc. In the times of hunter/gatherer, women hunted too, often with their babies strapped to their back. Even women who provide for the family in two income households tend to do more work at home than their partners. When she does provide financially, her ability to bring in a paycheck is often hindered (she's expected to be the one sacrificing for childcare regardless, she does physically sacrifice for child gestation and birth, she may be discriminated against out of fear that she will leave the company due said sacrifices and is therefore not a good investment, etc). Basically, women are only not "providers" if you only allow "provisions" to be defined by what men are good at/allow each other to do and exclude everything women can provide.

Generally speaking, the reason women tend to require more external providing from others is because of the brunt women play in reproduction: women are the ones who have to gestate and deal with the serious risks of pregnancy and childbirth, and women up until very recently were the only source of food for the baby for the first year or so of its life. Also, due to the important evolutionary purpose that grandmothers provide as guides, women have menopause. The hormonal changes during pregnancy, birth, and menopause are all very drastic because of how difficult creating a child is, so in all of these situations, women are more prone to osteoporosis and the like. It makes sense that men would be more default relied on for external providing and women for internal providing, although to force anyone into these roles even if that individual person does better in the other makes no sense.

Do women simply ask for the protection of their man because their man is stronger? Or is it in their biological nature to seek this?

Ironically, the three most dangerous things to women are men, illness, and childbirth (which is caused by a man impregnating her, so still men. The vast majority of risks women dealt with back when we were wild were things a man can't really protect her from (anymore than she can protect herself, anyway), like very large animals, venom, illness, temperature, starvation, etc. The treatment for the latter of those would have needed to come from dedicated medics and early scientists, which was internal work. There's a reason one of the oldest human professions is midwifery, usually by women for women.

Women tend to rely on men or protection nowadays because of the primary threats to humans that can be defended against (men and illness or childbirth) are things that either men happen to be best at (men fighting men) or things men forced women out of, often under penalty of execution for witchcraft, then later denial into education, and nowadays underfunding of research for female-specific problems (illness and childbirth). It makes sense for women to see men as protectors if men are the best defense against women's current primary predators.

More men will open a business that can expand, and more women will open businesses that "stay put" like a cafe or nail salon

That's not necessarily a bad thing. Why should "expand and conquer" be sought over "providing stability and benefit to society"? It's the problem we have with capitalism: it's not sustainable, because if your goal is "expand and conquer", you run out of things to conquer. If your goal is to fit into place and work together, you as a society last longer.

Sharp_Engineering379 · 2024-01-03T18:51:53+00:00

We're in the middle of discovering what natural selection in humans actually looks like, now that a sizable portion of women in the west are in a position to choose men based on mutual attraction rather than financial resources.

Men no likey.

theReaders · 2024-01-03T18:19:39+00:00

sociology, psychology, anthropology, authors, essayists, poets, feminists, trans people like people BEEN thinking everyone just hates to listen

FaradayBurka · 2024-01-03T18:48:20+00:00

People are not tabula rasa. Little boys like to play with blocks and then start smashing and crashing the things they built with blocks, while yelling and throwing things and pretending to be Godzilla. I taught elementary school and let me tell you, boys and girls are just not the same. Neither one is bad, but getting little boys to sit still and pay attention is HARD. So I know that is natural to their gender.

PixelizedPlayer · 2024-01-03T22:51:10+00:00

What's natural will occur dominantly if left alone. There is always outliers in any species but outliers tell us nothing. A tall woman doesn't disprove that men are taller than women in nature for example.

Examples, nursing is predominantly women because women are more naturally interested in caring for others. Men are predominantly into engineering because they are more naturally interested in things.

Almost every society in existence in human history formed patriarchal hierarchies so humans are naturally patriarchal much like most mammals which isn't a surprise if you don't get your emotions involved in how you feel about it. There are some matrilineal societies but even there male and female roles still are stereotypical. And there are zero matriarchal societies that exist or has ever existed.

As for your questions:

Men and women are both providers but they provide different things (protection/provisions) and (nurture/support).

Women do want to be protected by a man physically and emotionally, the more protected they feel the more successful the relationship tends to be (in modern times emotional protection is a bigger importance to women - aka be a rock for her to lean on and be vulnerable to). If a man is showing vulnerability to a woman this can improve relationships because it can tell a woman that she can be vulnerable to you since you're willing to do the same to her. But if she doesn't feel protected most women will likely end the relationship soon enough. This is also why incels typically have mental health issues - women don't feel the safety component they need.

Career wise - women are less ambitious than men, family wise women are more ambitious than men. So it depends what we're focussing on here. Far less women reach top jobs because they prefer a work/family balance, where as men typically prefer more work focus. This is not a shock given being family focussed improves dating chances with women and being work focussed improves dating chances for men.

Society can forcefully adjust these "defaults" with advertising, government policy etc. But if you removed all that people will automatically sort themselves back to default soon enough.

If we removed gender quotas in education and workplace, it would not take long for the data to revert back to the how it was a few decades ago before quotas. Quotas have not changed human behaviour at the fundamental level they have only placed a bandaid on it to make the stats look better which is a win to politicians and their careers.

We can also say it is nature and not nurture because even tribes separated from modern society show almost identical sorting between men and women.

januaryphilosopher · 2024-01-03T18:55:04+00:00

The long and short of it is we don't. We can't study anyone in complete isolation from society and without putting our own interpretation on it. Generally what we are finding is that men and women are more similar than we thought and what's natural to someone is certainly more to do with other characteristics than their gender - you can't tell someone's gender even quite roughly from a personality test for example.

Purple_Cruncher_123 · 2024-01-03T18:19:21+00:00

1) Are men more insecure about genetic paternity/maternity than women, or are women simply so incredibly unlikely to ever have that be in doubt to begin with?

2) Are men more abusive than women, or are women simply judged by different societal standards as to what constitutes as abuse (degree of physical severity, degree of abuse being equally serious because it is more mental than physical)?

3) Is it more likely that men and women do have evolved differences that are mental/psychological as well as physical, or is it more likely that evolution only operates from the neck down?

Fiendish · 2024-01-03T18:55:36+00:00

I think this is the one place where jordan peterson got it right. The one thing that almost all cultures and religions agree on is feminine is chaos and masculine is order.

So all of our ideas on what is truly natural should probably come from that fundamental axiom imo.

checkeredvansweedman · 2024-01-03T18:20:15+00:00

I think wisdom on this comes from experience over time. In my last relationship I tried to be the house keeper, I tried to be the work from home cat dad, and we lived in a house her mother owned. I thought I could handle this situation but I got depression so bad I got physically ill. I’ve learned as a man I become very unhappy very quickly in an emasculating situation.

hudibrastic · 2024-01-03T19:09:58+00:00

Because technically single moms are very good providers to their kids. The love of a single mom for her kids is like no other. Some of them do 2 jobs at the same time and give everything to their kids. No one can say that single moms don't provide to their kids. So women do provide, however when a man is in the family, why does the man usually provide?

I see you are not familiar with statistics regarding people growing up in fatherless homes

froderenfelemus · 2024-01-03T19:48:58+00:00

Fun fact; a lot of hunters / gatherers used to be women in the early ages. I think they could see that by the graves or something.

Don’t remember where I read it, it’s been a while lol

LolpopZombie · 2024-01-03T18:41:32+00:00

Man takes care of woman, woman takes care of baby. Man provide for woman, woman provide for baby. This is the way.

If man want woman provide for him - he become baby...whole thing falls apart.

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Safinated · 2024-01-03T18:30:08+00:00

Whatever gay people do is natural to each gender

KayRay1994 · 2024-01-03T18:50:29+00:00

The by nature argument does get more grey in the modern world - though some aspects of it are still present

1) throughout history, men were providers, sure, there is indeed a level of suppressing women involved here, and this does not mean that women can’t provide. However, through most pre-industrial societies, men hunted, and men engaged in trade with other tribes/villages. There is more danger involved here and men are biologically more expendable and physically stronger, as such, men went out and provided. In top of this, males are generally more territorial as such, provision comes naturally to this. As for your bit about single moms, they provide themselves because they have to - most times, they’d rather have it be a shared effort. And it is worth adding, in the modern world providing isn’t quite as literal because modern spaces are generally missing most dangers the past included - that being said, in most modern relationships, even ones where both partners work, men generally excel at making the home a place of safety and a place where both partners and their potential children can thrive. At the end of the day, the man is expected to protect his household and I think that is largely biological - even if not taken so literally at this stage.

2) humans do want protection from stronger humans - and on average, men are stronger than women. On top of this, men have a higher ceiling for physical strength than women do. Because of this, in most scenarios where physical danger is present, the man is the protector. Again, even in a modern context, in most heterosexual relationships the man is expected to protect the woman.

3) I don’t like the context of ambition being used here - because both can be ambitious in different ways, for example, (i’ll stick to traditional examples to illustrate my point) while men fight at war and often leave their homes for things like conquest, trade, etc - it is up to women to keep the peace and maintain the town, village, tribe, etc - on top of this, women’s roles have been to maintain their groups at a social and spiritual level, and even help them grow. To have vision for something like this needs ambition. Even in context of a homemaker, i’d argue that ambition is important because an ambitious housewife would strive to improve the lives of her family from within. So I wouldn’t call ambition a natural male trait because every aspect of life needs a dimension of ambition

_here_ok · 2024-01-03T19:18:12+00:00

We don't and without unethical testing I doubt we will. It's best to work with what we know of how things currently are and what influences that.

So if men are more likely to protect, it's best to see what we as a society consider worth protecting because that influences that drive.

If women are more likely to want stronger men, it's best to see why women feel so vulnerable without one. There's an influence for strength.

ThatLeval · 2024-01-03T19:36:25+00:00

For most of human history being a single parent meant something absolutely different to what it does today. Also work meant something different

Females give birth which makes them comprised for at least a year for each child and live with whatever health complications that comes with it. That's why they seek Men that are stronger and more than them in other areas in anticipation for the responsibilities they'll have to shoulder when family time comes

Men are more occupationally ambitious because they see more rewards for it down the line. They're judged on it more than women because that's something Women put greater emphasis on when looking for a relationship

operation-spot · 2024-01-03T19:39:25+00:00

I think men provide because that’s the only way they know how to connect to women and society. I think men seek out women with less than them so that they can save that woman and provide for her which makes him feel useful.

I think women ask for protection to make the man feel useful, not because she needs it. It used to be important for the performance of femininity but now it’s not which is why men are realizing that they weren’t needed as much as they thought.

I’d argue that women are extremely ambitious as we see with the amount of women who have degrees. Since I was young I’ve been told by my mom that I need to get an education and be self sufficient because there won’t be a coming to save me. I think most women receive similar messages and have an almost desperate need to succeed. I think women work to live while men are more likely to live for work since they believe that’s the only way they’re useful and therefore valuable as a human being.

Overall, I think less things are inherent to a gender so it’s more about socialization.

AidsVictim · 2024-01-03T20:01:38+00:00

We can only make educated guesses based on likely early conditions of humans and biological evidence.

#1 Are men providers by nature? Or have women never gotten the opportunity to be providers

Because technically single moms are very good providers to their kids. The love of a single mom for her kids is like no other. Some of them do 2 jobs at the same time and give everything to their kids. No one can say that single moms don't provide to their kids. So women do provide, however when a man is in the family, why does the man usually provide?

Both men and women are providers. Men get the provider label more regularly because they usually provide the surplus (both in pre modern and modern times) that allows a family/kids to thrive (or survive in more difficult times).

And while single moms are providers, every study shows that on average kids raised by single mothers underperform compared to kids raised in typical nuclear families. Being raised by a single mom (or father) is a pretty significant barrier to "thriving".

#2 Do women want to be protected by their man? Or "weaker" humans want to be protected by a trusted "stronger" human?

The wife and kids in a family are usually weaker than the dad, so the dad is expected to protect them. However, that same dad gets old one day, and he relies on the police to protect him. And women wo live alone and are allowed to carry weapons, do so - so it's not like women constantly want a man to protect them.

Men are evolved to fight much more efficiently than women and even in the context of something like guns where physical strength doesn't really matter, men are on average better handling stressful violent situations.

Do women simply ask for the protection of their man because their man is stronger? Or is it in their biological nature to seek this?

The answer is the same.

totallylikesoweird · 2024-01-03T20:13:44+00:00

i think it’s ALWAYS what people bring to the table.

Soooo.. yeah, sounds like fantasyland: but for starters come from a solid family. relationships with both parents or a least healthy disfunction with one/both and extended family. Like, cousins who you grew up with know you. Friends from high school and college. ex girlfriends and boyfriends, fun stories of drama. And a sense of humor in general, dark is attractive. Just in that growing up to 30 stage have people who know you. it’s weird if nobody knows you by 30 and you have no relationships. Unless that’s your thing and you can just go with it. Anybody happy with themselves attract other humans.

As far as providers go.. like I said it’s what you bring to the table. Some people bring laughter, joy, light in life. and that’s it. but it’s enough to sustain a happy relationship. Others bring money, vacations, humor.. whatever

throwaway164_3 · 2024-01-03T20:23:37+00:00

Scientific peer reviewed GWAS research and by looking at the behavior of our closest primate cousins (chimpanzees and bonobos)

Agent-Testosterone · 2024-01-03T21:52:48+00:00

1 Are men providers by nature? Or have women never gotten the opportunity to be providers

I'd say it's probably men's nature to provide. Even if you use the argyment that they just didn't get the opportunity, that would still be because men probably, in the ancient times, immediately took over all those types of duties by nature. Single mothers provide because they have to, but I wouldn't say that translates to their nature. Just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should.

2 Do women want to be protected by their man? Or "weaker" humans want to be protected by a trusted "stronger" human?

Of course weaker people want to be protected and It doesn’t matter by what. If it's a gun or another person with a gun, whatever makes you feel the safest is what you will choose. Plus, carrying a gun doesn't guarantee you will win the gun fight, so some trained officer risking their life instead of you risking yours is comforting. So yes, often times a woman would, maybe, want to be protected by their partner, thus the partner has an incentive to get stronger.

3 Are women less ambitious than men, or have women never had the opportunity to be ambitious?

In the past they did have less opportunities. Nowadays, it's either they aren't as ambitious or are just massively mislead about what they should pursue. In fact, women are nowadays better in colleges than men, but for some reason, they choose bogus feilds that won't make them any money or make a lasting impact. But there are plenty of examples of women who made the right choices like Susan at YouTube, hundreds of pop artists, etc.

Cherish_Lifee · 2024-01-03T21:52:50+00:00

#1 women in the past could never do work as good as men cause work was mostly physical, nowadays that is different women can do as good a job or even better than men, women didnt riot 300 years ago to go die in a coal mine for good reason. (also "why does the man usually provide" because women expect men to, why would you not want to live a life of luxury without having to work if you can easily do so)

#2 Women are very emotional, often times having a guy next to them at all times is not actually making them significantly saver but that doenst matter cause they FEEL saver.

#3 you could probably write a 50 page master thesis on that question, i want to keep it short many factors could play a role here one could be that men have more testostrone and that plays a role in ambition will to conquer etc. also burden of performance is kind of higher on guys, if a guy goes and increases his status in society and his income greatly he is going to have more rewards from that than a women will which creates more insentive. If you become extremely high status/ rich as a guy suddenly all the most beautiful women on the planet want to sleep with you, whereas if you do the same as a woman it doenst really matter. If you look good and ideally you are a good person too, the best men the planet has to offer would want to be with you regardless, it doenst matter if you make 20 million a year or not.

Sea_Roll_2099 · 2024-01-03T22:33:34+00:00

Most of our evolution was shaped in hunting gathering societies not 1800s England.

Women don't hunt because they had to stay home to look after babies.

Not only that but men are of course stronger, faster and much more accurate at throwing things. They evolved to do so. Which is why they're better at sports today.

Great_Reset_ · 2024-01-03T22:49:19+00:00

Read the Bible. It has the answer to your questions.

But yes. Men are the way they are, and Women are the way they are. That is why Men run the world, it has to be that way. Could you imagine a group of women trying to build a building?...

MotleyCrew1989 · 2024-01-04T04:24:00+00:00

If you ask whats natural, you have to remember one thing, nature doesnt give anyone oportunities, you adapt or die, easy as that.

You are using a lot of examples that are outside of nature, like police protection, or the posibility to go to school, when your arguments should go arround cavemen level society. Remember than humans (and its evolutionary ancestors) spent thousands of years living with the bare minimum, we have had written history for the last five thousands years alone, on evolutionary level thats the bling of an eye.

tadL · 2024-01-04T12:48:21+00:00

Seriously you are overthinking that. Does a lion know what he has to do and the female lions know what they have to do or is it forced on them by older lions

uglysaladisugly · 2024-01-04T17:36:40+00:00

We don't and knowing it would have no purpose anyway.

Title	How do we know what's natural to each gender, and what is the cause of society?
Author	Consistent-Gur6932
Upvotes	25
Comments	147
Date	January 3, 2024 6:07 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/18xpmkn/how_do_we_know_whats_natural_to_each_gender_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/how-do-we-know-whats-natural-to-each-gender-and.1242187 https://theredarchive.com/post/1242187

Comments

1 Are men providers by nature? Or have women never gotten the opportunity to be providers

2 Do women want to be protected by their man? Or "weaker" humans want to be protected by a trusted "stronger" human?

3 Are women less ambitious than men, or have women never had the opportunity to be ambitious?