Bisexual Beta Male Bonobos and Sexual Selection

wekacuck · 2018-09-17T01:46:12+00:00

It's always interesting to me that bonobos and chimps are often setup as two extremes that humans must lie between. We all three started the same place. It's a bit of an odd construct. We don't compare or limit human language or tools or art as lying between that of chimps and bonobos.

Anyway a major difference between us and both bonobos and chimps is that we don't have estrus (heat) and we have concealed ovulation. Chimp and bonobo females both have very visible signs of ovulation as a cue to organize male sexual competition. We just don't.

toronto87 · 2018-09-17T03:04:51+00:00

Maybe there's a reason we became the Apex predator and they didn't.

DaphneDK42 · 2018-09-17T01:21:28+00:00

Bonobos seem to deal with this partly by having ample homosexual sex.

I think the way they regulate it, is that the female bonobos will have sex with everybody, except when they're ovulating - then they'll only bang Chads. A human pendent would be state run brothels, where all the betas can go and fuck girls with no chance of reproducing.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2018-09-17T05:40:15+00:00

It must be great for beta male Bonobos to live in such a sex-positive culture, right? Not so fast. It looks like a lower percentage of male Bonobos reproduce compared to Chimpanzees, and only the most dominant bonobos are successful at passing on their genes to the next generation.

Question: do beta Bonobos get any non-reproductive heterosexual sex?

I mean yeah, I know Bonobos don't have birth control. But do the women fuck beta male Bonobos outside of their fertility windows? Or do they practice any alternatives to PIV?

Because honestly, we know that TRP-style frustration is mostly focused on sex rather than reproduction. Most TRPers want sexual validation, not an actual opportunity to reproduce. I mean, they often speak of non-procreative sex acts as the ultimate proof of a woman wanting you (anal in particular). Tons of them strongly advise contraception and that men should worry about spermjacking or being entrapped via pregnancy, and I don't see any of them campaigning against vasectomies, or even tubal ligation or The Pill (they complain about the sexual revolution resulting in an unequal distribution of sex, but I don't see them claiming contraception or birth control should be illegal).

A sexually liberal culture doesn’t fix the problem for less attractive males, but instead exacerbates it.

Only if you define the problem in terms of genetic reproduction. If, however, getting laid is the real goal then sexual liberalism would be a good thing, since even if actual women don't necessarily want to fuck a guy, substitutes (porn, sexbots, prostitution) exist.

You could argue that psychologically speaking, men want to be wanted, and thus the substitutes are not good enough. Its a fair argument, but very few men were genuinely wanted under traditionalism too; marriages were about duty, social acceptability, pleasing the parents, passing down property etc, and she wasn't having enthusiastic OHMYGODYES sex with a husband she found hot... she was lying back and thinking of England unless she got married to a Chad. Traditionalism won't magically make women find beta dudes hot, so traditionalism is no better than prostitution really (indeed we could argue it was basically prostitution on a retainer contract).

Men do need sexual liberalism so they can get substitutes. What we have today isn't sexual liberalism. Feminism turned against sexual liberalism a long time ago. These days, the majority of feminists want to regulate porn-for-men, campaign against sexbots, end prostitution through the "Nordic Model" etc.

We live in a society where sexual liberalism exists for women only. Men are still essentially under a mixture of conservative-gynocentric and tribal sexual norms. A sexual liberalism for men would embrace porn, sexbots, prostitution, sex toys, and like you say, male queerness.

Bonobos seem to deal with this partly by having ample homosexual sex. If it’s good enough for beta male bonobos, maybe beta male humans should give it a try?

I'd agree with you in many respects (I fully admit, I'm a bi dude myself so I'm biased (pun intended)). But I have a different rationale here.

I believe bisexuality in males is a lot more common than we're led to believe. Indeed, the massive social stigmas against male homosexuality seem only to make sense if a very significant cohort of males are naturally willing to swing both ways (because if male sexuality is binary and innate, then straight men have no chance of going gay and gay men have no chance of going straight, and therefore there is literally no reason to deter people from homosexuality and pressure people towards heterosexuality with a complex social apparatus of costs and benefits).

I think there is probably an evolutionary basis for male sexual desire for men as well as women; heterosexual male desire can be explained as directly reproductive, but homosexual male desire may be about building social bonds and solidarity among groups of men which in turn can improve them chances of them surviving in a harsh environment and thus increase the chance of them them reproducing. If this is true, it certainly explains the twisted homoeroticism of certain kinds of "male bonding" activity which straight-identified men engage in whilst simultaneously reinforcing its "no-homo"-ness (and why these activities are both common and fetishized in absurd amounts of gay porn).

So in other words, some level of male bisexuality seems to be plausibly thought of as natural. I'm not denying that pure hetero and pure homo guys exist, but I suspect they're rarer than a lot like to think.

However, we are not just biological organisms. Culture plays a role. If a certain level of bisexuality is natural for a large cohort of men, why would social norms which restrict this and seem designed primarily to mitigate it and funnel men towards reproductive-only sexuality emerge?

I'd suggest that its because in the tribal/pre-civilizational days, we needed aggressive breeding to keep population levels stable-to-growing and labor was the primary factor of production we had. Indeed labor was absolutely crucial to economic growth up until the dawn of industrial capitalism (where capital became the primary factor of production). Culture is 'sticky' and to an extent it is naturally conservative (in the small-c sense) - it preserves "what worked" in the past and tends to reproduce and institutionalize it to the point where these norms often become tacit and uncritiqued. Back in the past, men who weren't involved in either protecting or providing for women and children were an efficiency loss to the system. Perhaps, if there are incentives that make male/male sexuality better choices than male/female sexuality (more sex, easier relationships, less responsibility) on an individual level, male-male sex was seen as an economic threat and thus stigmatized.

Anyway, that's just speculation, but I want to continue with how I think male bisexuality in the modern world may be useful. Primarily, I think it could help to provide competition in the sexual marketplace and accelerate men's defection from the traditional male role or protector-provider-for-women-and-children. This would basically mean women, if they wanted to secure a man, would need to offer him a better deal than "hello, I've got a pulse and a vagina" and provide women with an incentive to be better partners (as opposed to the current situation, where being an entitled princess shrew is effectively celebrated as the highest form of female empowerment).

Let's say most of the men who defect are men who women don't desire. This doesn't mean women won't lose much though; it means they'll lose a lot of the benevolent sexism/chivalry/female privilege they've become accustomed to.

321PK · 2018-09-17T01:00:21+00:00

Idk? It seems rude to suggest unhappy men should just be gay with one another. I mean, that’s what you’re saying right? And that we should deal as if we are monkeys? I never heard of bonobos before Reddit so I’m firm in my belief ppl don’t need life advice from them.

Mattcwu · 2018-09-17T04:52:34+00:00

maybe beta male humans should give it a try?

Maybe they already have.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2018-09-17T04:03:34+00:00

It makes me feel sick to my stomach that feminists are ignoring such a crucial problem sexually and romantically isolated men clearly have and suggesting they can use "fluid sexuality" to their advantage. How do you think their LGBTQ intersectional-feminist buddies would feel about it if heterosexual men started telling gays that "sexuality is fluid" and they choose to be gay - they could just fuck women and learn to love it or something?

I don't think they'd fucking like it.

Anyway, a while back I wrote a critique of "therapy for incels bonobo style" which was a similar article (for the Original article click here). Here is what I wrote about it:

https://pastebin.com/BUZ4ErNM

[deleted] · 2018-09-17T01:41:07+00:00

Technology will probably fix this problem. Super advanced AI, and advancements in Robotics and we're good to go. Bonus points for hyper realistic neural sims.

Uncommon_Sense_12345 · 2018-09-17T01:00:43+00:00

So one hole or mouth is as good as the next regardless of gender. I suspect most straight men who can't get women will go the prostitute, sex doll, or lotioned hand with porn routes.

Pope_Lucious · 2018-09-17T01:32:05+00:00

Nah. Most dudes like pussy too much.

[deleted] · 2018-09-17T04:35:25+00:00

Freud did say that we are all actually bisexual.

honeypuppy · 2018-09-17T11:27:25+00:00

You know, we could actually look at relevant modern data about human sexual behaviour rather than obsess over how bonobos and 12th century societies operated.

wtknight · 2018-09-17T13:27:24+00:00

If it’s good enough for beta male bonobos, maybe beta male humans should give it a try?

Beta human males can get sex by leveraging their resources, which are instinctually needed by human females in order to provide more resources to her own offspring. This did not happen so much in the ancient past, as humans lived more communally then, but is a more effective strategy now, although the effectiveness of this may be declining due to the existence of the welfare state. This makes us different than bonobos, who, from what I’ve read, are much more likely to share food with each other than humans or chimpanzees.

I don’t think that Red Pill ever denies that beta men can get sex (omegas are the ones who can’t get sex). What they say betas can’t get is sex with sexual desire from the woman. This is what enables alpha men to fulfill their male polygynous imperative.

Electra_Cute · 2018-09-17T00:56:23+00:00

Good thing humans are not bonobos.

kandyapplez · 2018-09-17T12:31:37+00:00

i actually wonder why more mgtow/generally unsuccessful men don't just get with transgender males. they so very clearly hate the things that psychologically make women women, they openly declare that women are only good for being a set of holes, i've seen MANY say things like "i wish i was gay but it just seems so much easier"....i would think a transgender who looks like a woman (or their pornified caricature of a woman) would be their ideal partner

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[deleted] · 2018-09-17T11:22:42+00:00

hmm. i've pondered about this for a long time. like what if you produced enough wealth so that everybody was more or less equal, meaning no man was that much better than any other in terms of resources (since bonobo males are less competitive due to living in areas with abundant resources), so women wouldn't care about how much money you make, but right now that's the only way an ugly guy could realistically mate and reproduce.

if you remove the need to accrue resources and skills from the equation, you're left with the female drive to simply reproduce with the "hottest" guy. i wasn't aware that that was happening in bonobos. thanks for posting this.

YaAmar · 2018-09-17T11:23:25+00:00

This should really be taught in high school biology in my opinion, since it’s more relevant to the lives of most humans than natural selection.

What should be taught in high school is that obesity in men is physically disgusting. That if they want women, they better start dropping their donuts and start climbing that rope in Gym class.

t if you’re a male you’re still in a struggle against other males to get attractive enough that females will be open to your advances.

No. There are hundreds of millions of women. There are billions of women in the world. The man who is going to struggle is going to struggle due to personal failings, and nothing to do with biological laws or competition with other men for women. This isn't 10.000 BC Europe. Guys don't go 30 years without seeing a fertile female.

Women don't have standards that high, and you only need to be average for most women to notice you and to be open to dating you if you are a decent enough chap to be with.

Don't be 5 feet tall.

Don't have a deformed face.

Have low body fat.

Most men can easily achieve 1 and 2 and 3, with the last one being so extremely easy that I have no idea how there's fat guys in the world.

Bonobos seem to deal with this partly by having ample homosexual sex. If it’s good enough for beta male bonobos, maybe beta male humans should give it a try?

After reading what the red pillers and black pillers write. How much they talk about other men. How much they tell themselves that most women are getting gorged with Chad cock 24/7. How much they seem to be fixated on lifting heavy weights. I'd say that most red pillers should just try gay sex. They don't even like women all that much. They're ressentufl, hateful, envious of women's ability to get laid, and overall wanting to stick their dicks inside a woman does not make them like women.

abaxeron · 2018-09-17T11:56:45+00:00

Bonobos simply have damaged brains. If they encounter a conflict situation, they fall into mental breakdown and start cuddling, because their brain releases screwed-up set of hormones. The conflict doesn't go away, the underlying cause of the conflict doesn't go away, they just sort-of pretend to forget about it; this behavior has nothing to do with socialization or choices, it's an evolutionary glitch that will fix itself as soon as bonobos go extinct (and this might happen soon - probably within our lifetimes). Essentially, they're retards. So, thanks for your suggestion, but I'm not that open to the idea of learning something from retarded freaks of nature.

AlanHalworth · 2018-09-17T12:00:16+00:00

That's interesting that even among bonobos, it's mostly the dominant males that pass on their genes. I didn't know that.

I'm not sure I agree that "it's by design." The hypothesis about sex I most believe is the Red Queen hypothesis, i.e. the reason sex developed in the first place was to allow genes to mix, thereby producing more different combinations of genes. This would ensure that at least some organisms would survive from a plague, rather than having a monoculture of identical organisms who would all die. But this doesn't require that only a few males reproduce. That feature is accidental and not important to the design.

I think that most organisms, including sexually reproducing ones, stay more or less the same over millions of years, and it's true that a few males dominate because they manage to "look" better to females, but in fact it's just the same genes being mushed around for millions of years. The alphas just lucked out and got better nutrition as a baby, making them bigger, or they figured out how to fight better. This is obvious to anyone who believes in PUA or is a liberal -- alphaness comes from technique (such as PUA technique) or environment, not genes. That's the way it is in nature too.

If the alpha males were truly incrementally superior in every generation, then sharks would have evolved with "frickin' laser beams on their heads" (as Dr. Evil says) by now, having existed for 400 millions years, or tens of millions of generations. This is a thing that most discussions of alphaness / dominance are missing. Dominance weeds out some deleterious mutations, yes, but most animals are roughly equal in fitness, genetically.

nomansweb · 2018-09-17T15:14:29+00:00

The equivalent of what ape beta males do foe sex is more like prostitution and less like prison gays. Throughout much of history legal prostitution was the normal way for men to have some sexual experience before marriage or to get any experience at all for men who weren't deemed marriageable by women or women's families.

ThrashSurf · 2018-09-17T16:10:10+00:00

Always the same tired old bullshit repeated again and again.

https://www.amazon.com/Naked-Bonobo-Lynn-Saxon/dp/1523945516

simcity4000 · 2018-09-17T16:24:06+00:00

If we're strictly talking about sex for reproduction/passing on your genes sake, then I know plenty of uhh, somewhat-less-than-genetically-perfect-males from school who are now fathers.

5baserush · 2018-09-17T02:41:39+00:00

I feel kike this is take from a book. Way of men or something. I also feel like its overall a pretty good book, discussing how men need community with one another, and that this was overall a very minor part of the book.

Skratt · 2018-09-17T02:22:31+00:00

Ok I'll stop debating the 80/20 rule for now. I'll let you guys eat yourselves. :)

mydikishomofobik · 2018-09-17T14:26:30+00:00

A lot of men are disgusted and repulsed by gay sex. It seems to be a lot of people heavily promote gay sex, but it won't work. Most men don't want it. They'd rather jack off or pay hookers than fuck another man. And I don't blame them either.

Bisexual Beta Male Bonobos and Sexual Selection

Comments

I don't think they'd fucking like it.

Don't tell straight guys they can just go gay.

Title	Bisexual Beta Male Bonobos and Sexual Selection
Author	mindsanitizer
Upvotes	23
Comments	157
Date	September 17, 2018 12:53 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/9gfu93/bisexual_beta_male_bonobos_and_sexual_selection/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/bisexual-beta-male-bonobos-and-sexual-selection.260801 https://theredarchive.com/post/260801