If men are allowed to criticize and say nasty things about their experience with women in public, there will be less hatred and frustration against women today.

TheBlackQuill · 2017-05-10T23:10:08+00:00

The reason why we see so many hatred against women today is because men who criticize women tend to be called out for misogyny, even though the criticism is...

[–]OurThrownAwayDreams points points points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I live in the heartland of liberals, if you dare to public ally criticize a woman, angry white knights (who happen to be white men) will descend upon you to correct your "sexist views"

One time I saw a coworker of mine wrote on her Facebook about how she supports the violent protest that happens in a nearby city. I debated her on why violent protest is not the answer and it's uncivil. Immediately there was a white knight to her rescue telling me to chill out.

Sometimes you gotta wonder why people on /pol/, /b/, TRP and other anonymous networks post so much real misogynistic stuffs (things like taking away women's right to vote, enslaving women, etc). Because they feel silenced. When you silence people, they will grow resentful. They will learn to hate. They won't care if what they are doing is right or wrong. All they care about is lashing out at you for denying their inalienable right - to speak their mind.

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There are two types of talk we need to differentiate:

hateful rhetoric
actual criticisms

The thing is, we need to be able to talk freely so we know how people will react to those ideas we toss around. This is how you know you are right/wrong. You see how people react and draw your own conclusion. Maybe if you say something terrible, someone will come out and tell you why you are wrong on certain things. Bring evidence to support claims, debate, whatever it is, that's how we know what's true and what's not.

Say if I believe the Nazis did nothing wrong. I say that out loud. People are gonna point to me evidences of genocide that took place in Germany. There are photos of Jewish prisoners moments before they were executed, those are evidences to counter my claim. Then next time I'll think twice about claiming the Nazis did nothing wrong.

Just like if I say women shouldn't vote. People can correct me by suggesting that "Any tax paying citizens should be allowed to vote and be represented." That's a brilliant counter argument to the "women shouldn't be allowed to vote" claim.

Take another example. Wage gap. It's disgusting to call someone sexist to shut down that discussion just because someone does not believe men and women are paid differently for the same job. I think there are good criticisms to the wage gap claim and we should absolutely be able to talk about it without resorting to name calling. If we can do that on PPD, we can do that IRL.

There's no changing the minds of those who absolutely hate women. However, we cannot punish them along with those who raise fair criticisms and just lump them into one giant sexist group.

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I'm not saying sexism or hateful generalizations about men are good, but there is a reason why they are seen as less harmful than those against women and it's the same reason "honkey" isn't as bad a slur like the n word: there is a history of oppression of black people by white people, and a history of oppression of women by men that must be taken into account.

When people use a racial slur against a minority they are reinforcing a system that has benefited white people above all others, and when people use a gendered slur against women they are reinforcing a system that benefited men above women at every class of society.

That said, of course slurs against anyone are not good but the difference is one type reinforces a harmful system where one class benefits above another and the other does not.

Edit: keep downvoting RPers, doesn't make it not true

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How can you call that danger? It was either that or starve to death in the streets, freeze to death, get kidnapped and sold to brothels or raped to death. It was a different time.

A man choosing to give a woman shelter, food, clothing, protection to her and her child and for what? For sex? You don't think there were brothels? How can you call the kindness of those men oppression?

who can beat you,

Then leave.

infect you with a disease,

Then leave.

or leave you any time you got mouthy?

Seriously. How can you talk with such entitlement? These women weren't giving these men shit they couldn't get elsewhere. These men gave food, water, shelter, protection and you have the gall to say it wasn't enough? that they were actually suffering? Damn.

How can you demand things for getting privileges? What the actual fuck?

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It is still normal life for women in many parts of the world. Really, I'm not lying or exaggerating. If you're unaware of this, you should research what life is like for many (not all, obviously) women in the middle east and countries like Nepal, Pakistan and India.

At no point did I suggest that all women in history were always treated this way. Gross generalizations like that would, indeed, be bullshit. I was responding to the assumption that being "free from the burden of making hard choices" is something to aspire to. That concept is absolutely insane to me. If someone really believes being denied personal liberty is a cushy deal, they've got a serious problem.

Any systemic belief that women are "less than" opens the door to myriad abuses like the ones many women in the countries I mentioned before still endure. Yes, lots of men in these societies surely treat their wives well. That doesn't change the fact that the wives do not have the same rights as the men in their lives and are ultimately completely under their control.

Feel however you want about the expectation that men should be providers and defenders. Women, historically, did not have the legal right to decide to be providers or defenders. That is the issue. Once again, it is wrong and oppressive to rob another human being of their right to make their own decisions. Whether that person ends up with a comfortable life or not. .

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[–]Temperfuelmma6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (62 children) | Copy Link

Okay. How would've these women survived without their husband? She can't protect her child let alone herself, she can't make money, she doesn't have a home, she can't hunt, she can't buy bread.

The only reason these women even survived was because men were kind to them. Gave them a house, protected them, protected their children, gave them and their children food, clothing, money, you name it and in exchange for what? For sex? You don't think there were brothels at that time? These women survived off of the kindness of men.

The women that were lucky enough to have a husband were the luckiest of them all because the one's that didn't have a husband either died out of poverty, starvation, kidnapped and sold to brothels, kidnapped and raped until death. Women lived a lifestyle most men could've only dreamed of. To call that oppression is just beyond me.

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Okay. Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario where men didn't "oppress" Women from the beginning of time. Men and women both led separate lives. They didn't bother with each other. Do you think women would've survived?

Why didn't you answer my question?

And your real sentiment comes through. Bravo. Let me guess, it's because all women are magically bad at math and science. Because female brains were obviously stupid right?

So now you're trying to shift the blame to stereotypes? You'll answer your own question once you give an answer to my first question.

Let's face it. We both know if men hadn't taken care of women out of kindness. To give them a home, food, clothing, protection they would've lasted what 2 years?

It's funny you're saying men did all that so that they could have autonomous control over women's life. You don't think men could've just barged in took 3 women and used them as slaves for his pleasure? You're just a bad person for trying to spin this kindness into some kind of "oppression".

I wish I had the nerve to demand getting payed for receiving privileges.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Temperfuelmma3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

None of this sounds like women had it in any way better than men.

No they didn't.

Men could at least fight for their survival.

Yes they could.

Women (even according to you!) had to just cross their fingers and hope for the best. They literally had no choice in the matter.

I agree.

Because of the restrictions placed on them (by men!)

Woah, Woah, Woah. What? Nobody restricted women to go build a home, to go hunt animals, to not protect themselves. At that time women couldn't do it. Men didn't wake up one day and go from this day onwards you can't hunt for food, build shelter, buy clothes, protect yourself. Women couldn't do it. Men could. And men chose themselves to share these resources with women in return for NOTHING.

they had to marry someone who could treat them however horribly he wanted,

Women didn't have to do anything. If they didn't want to marry and have someone share their resources with them in return for NOTHING(which was a lifestyle men could only dream about but women were given that privilege) they had to lead a much harsher lifestyle. So you're complaining about a privilege being not good enough. That level of entitlement is too much for my puny male brain to comprehend.

How you see that as enviable, or not oppressive, is beyond me.

What. The. Fuck.

It's oppressive because women were getting things for FREE but the poor wimminz couldn't place more demands on what they were getting for FREE.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nobody restricted women to go build a home, to go hunt animals, to not protect themselves. At that time women couldn't do it.

Are you talking about prehistoric times? I'm referring more to times when women were restricted from working and making money- That is, times when money (and cities, and brothels) existed. If you're taking about cave men, I agree somewhat, but "society" (if you can call it that) was very different when we were nomads.

If they didn't want to marry and have someone share their resources with them in return for NOTHING(which was a lifestyle men could only dream about but women were given that privilege)

It's only a privilege if you get lucky and the person you marry treats you well. If you're a woman in certain societies and certain times, marriage comes at the expense of your freedom and bodily autonomy, but the alternative is even worse.

have someone share their resources with them in return for NOTHING

The idea that women have never contributed anything in marriage is laughable. Yes, women contributed sex and babies, but also physical and domestic labor, just as men contribute resources. Men wanted and needed marriage too. However, they had to option to forgo it if they wanted without dying or living in squalor, and had much more freedom within it. That's the key difference.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Your understanding of male/female relations of the past is almost pure fantasy. Your husband could not deprive you of necessities and he was not permitted to abuse you on a whim like you're imagining. People (once upon a time) lived in societies and communities that were very aware of what its members got up to. Guess what, back then you weren't getting married unless you were tied to the community, because if you had nothing at stake then you weren't going to get married. Sure, it was more difficult for women to escape abuse than it is now, of course it was, everything was harder, but the idea that abuse was the norm or accepted or whatever is total bullshit that you've made up to justify your hatred for men.

Men love women and always have. You're completely deluded if you think that women were getting beaten up for expressing their opinions or doing anything other than dutifully taking care of her chores. The West has never been like what the Middle East is at the moment, which is what you seem to be equating it to.

You're a fantasy peddler and the people you're replying to are responding to your fantasies as if they were true.

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20 sjw brownies for cuittler

and a history of oppression of women by men that must be taken into account.

Even if we don't question the feminist narrative that women have toiled away ever since patriarchy wa a thing while men had a blast...

Regarding sexism, that's the most asinine and retarded reason one could come with ever and it really should go away. Because, explain to me: why the fuck is, say, a swedish woman born in the 1980s onwards more oppressed than her male peers? She grew up all her life in the most feminist country in the world and got told from all sides that she's awesome just by virtue of having a vagina, while the guys get constantly reminded how privileged they are, how indebted to women they are, how much they suck etc.?

Of course, if someone thinks that "guilt" is hereditary and is passed down via the Y chromosome then it makes sense from that perspective. But of course I'm also entitled to see such a person as the asshole she is in that case.

Also, if we respect that line of thinking as valid, what about the history of male oppression by women prior to the establishment of the patriarchy 5000ish years ago? If we take this at face value (and at least Gloria Steinem obviously did, and longed for the reestablishment of that glorious matriarchal tradition), then women should still be in the red 5000 years later. So girls, rejoice at the prospect of a few dozen more millenia of patriarchy!

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Even if we don't question the feminist narrative that women have toiled away ever since patriarchy wa a thing while men had a blast...

Patriarchy isn't what you seem to think it is. It's not the oppression of all women by all men, it's the oppression of everyone by rich, powerful men and their supporters. It's called patriarchy and not something like androarchy for a reason. Enforced gender roles are what we take issue with, whether that's expecting women to raise kids and stay at home, or forcing men to march off to war. It's making men feel undervalued when they choose to be stay at home dads, or fostering toxic male stoicism that only helps drive suicide rates.

why the fuck is, say, a swedish woman born in the 1980s onwards more oppressed than her male peers?

Typically because women still face female centred issues in even the most progressive states. Rape, sexual assault, harassment, and workplace discrimination are all still more often experienced by women compared to men.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Patriarchy isn't what you seem to think it is.

No, patriarchy is an all-purpose-argument that means whatever the feminist in question needs to weasel her way out of a debate.

If said feminist wants to coopt gullible beta males in order to garner their support, then partriarchy "hurts men too" because it forces men into roles even when they individually might be ill-suited for them.

However, if one of these beta males dares to object to something this feminist said, then patriarchy is this nebulous social force that compels him to "mansplain" to her and be a vile misogynistic shitlord.

And when said beta male actually learned a trade and earns more than she does with her gender studies degree, then patriarchy is what prevented her from getting a well-paying job despite her shitty decisions.

As I said, whatever she needs it to be.

Typically because women still face female centred issues in even the most progressive states. Rape, sexual assault, harassment, and workplace discrimination are all still more often experienced by women compared to men.

You really don't want to start privilege olympics here, honey...

[–]Shazoa0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

No, patriarchy is an all-purpose-argument that means whatever the feminist in question needs to weasel her way out of a debate.

I just explained what it was, do you actually have anything to suggest I'm wrong?

If said feminist wants to coopt gullible beta males in order to garner their support, then partriarchy "hurts men too" because it forces men into roles even when they individually might be ill-suited for them.

However, if one of these beta males dares to object to something this feminist said, then patriarchy is this nebulous social force that compels him to "mansplain" to her and be a vile misogynistic shitlord.

And when said beta male actually learned a trade and earns more than she does with her gender studies degree, then patriarchy is what prevented her from getting a well-paying job despite her shitty decisions.

You're literally just taking different shitty arguments, from different people, putting them together, and pretending they somehow represent feminism in some way. They don't.

You really don't want to start privilege Olympics here, honey...

Calling it that shows just how little respect you have for people. Also, I'm a man.

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I think this really nails it. This point needs to be discussed more. Boys are indoctrinated throughout their education that women and girls are oppressed victims and that, solely because of their gender, they're privileged, sexist bigots who will have everything handed to them in life. The reality is quite different, of course. They grow up seeing girls given one form of preferential treatment after another after another in complete contrast to the 'equality' mantra they claim to want. Then, in spite of so many double standards in their favor, they still cling to the victim label. It never ends. Always a victim. Everything is the fault of men. Bad behavior from females is never discussed. This leads to yet another round of even more preferential treatment and the entire cycle starts over again. When the resentment and backlash occur, it's odd the way they can never see any connection.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I agree, but not for the reasons you've given. It's precisely not being able to say nasty things about women that creates such an intense hatred of them. Hatred is the word. It doesn't mean there would be less sexist thoughts, realistically there could very well be more sexism, but there would certainly be less hatred and frustration.

Feminists don't understand that in attempting to eliminate any criticism or hatred of women that they're really just fueling it. They're putting themselves up as impossible figures, having some qualities (even if they aren't innate qualities but historical qualities) that render them exempt from genuine criticism. Women's acceptance of criticism is more like the person who responds to the 'what's your greatest weakness' job interview question with a weakness that's really a positive. "Oh, women can be too meek and be afraid of speaking up, but this is just a product of social expectations and oppression, how wonderful we are for bearing the burden of oppression".

If women want to stop being hated, and they are hated by a lot of people, they need to start actually allowing themselves to be hated.

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I understand that the one journalist group Jezebel

It's not just them, other papers also published articles making her out to be a victim, and the frat bros to be these terrifying men that people's daughters should never go near:

What a glittering social world came along with these athletes. With their king-size beds, their huge television sets, their love of porn and Mario Kart, their apparent unconcern for matters cerebral (one of the 13 was suspended from play for academic violations; another dropped out when he got drafted into a Major League Baseball team), their eagerness to whip out their genitals on almost any occasion, and their casual racism, they offer any parent ample reason to think twice before sending a beloved child to Duke. These louts did not operate on the fringes of polite society at the university, but existed—were lionized—at its epicenter.

[–]dakruNeither13 points14 points15 points 9 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

Can you give an example of things that men aren't allowed to say vs a comparable of what women are allowed to say?

Here's an article on a reputable news site called "Memo to men: Your groping days are over". That's considered socially acceptable. The equivalent but targeted at another group ("Memo to women: Your gold-digging days are over" or "Memo to blacks: Your gangbanging days are over") would be considered extremely hateful and misogynistic (or racist)—I'd be very surprised to see it published on a reputable outlet. Would you disagree? Edit: Also "Evidence of the Superiority of Female Doctors" in The Atlantic.

Whether you agree with OP's point or not, it's pretty clear that there are massively different standards for what counts as hateful or sexist against men compared to what counts as hateful or sexist against women. Lawrence Summers was forced to step down as president of Harvard, and he probably lost out on multiple major positions (Treasury Secretary in 2009, Chair of the Federal Reserve in 2013) all because he said that one of the reasons that there are fewer women than men in tenured positions in science is that men have a greater variation in aptitude, which means more male geniuses and more male idiots.

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The counter argument I'd give to your first point is that your message to blacks makes it seem that it's only them that gangbang. A thought can occur that for everyone else, the gangbanging is totally fine, but it's over for blacks.

There is an issue with sexual violation by men to women. Women do the same to men as well, and should be addressed and punished when it occurs, but it's not as commonplace.

Aren't we in the same situation with all three of those examples? One group is more likely to do the action (groping, golddigging, or gangbanging), but they're not the only group that does the action.

Does "Memo to men: Your groping days are over" say that groping is totally fine for everyone except men?

As for Summers, think that his statement was an incredibly unwise one to make, and a university is right to fire him if they feel their image is being affected. When it comes down to it, it is a business. If there is a woman representative that has declared a similar thing with no punishment, we may have something.

If you want to argue that it's acceptable to fire someone over that blowback then sure---my point is more about the different amounts of blowback when you say things about men compared to saying things about women (or minorities). I can't think of a perfect example of the genders flipped but a good example is Melvin Konner, a biological anthropologist at Emory University. He has a piece in the WSJ where he says that that "research" shows that women are superior in most ways that will count in the future, for reasons of culture, upbringing, and biology. This is far, far, far more sexist than what Summers said, and I'm not aware of any large scale backlash. (He's not a university president, but I think the point still stands.) (Also, that's another example of my first point. I would be shocked to see the WSJ publish an article about how men are superior.)

[–]HairbrainerWhy can't we be friends?1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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I don't necessarily think that Konner is necessarily more sexist, considering his is sourced with research. Summers didn't cite anything in his statement did he? I think psychology research is mostly bunk but I'll table that for this bit.

A fair point; is something sexist if it's true? That's why I don't generally like to even talk of what's sexist or not, I prefer to just talk about whether it's true. I avoided getting into that for this topic because if we usually jump to "that's sexist!" when it comes to negative statements about women without asking whether they're true (and my point is that we treat negative statements about women very differently from negative statements about men).

Not sure if Summers cited any research, but research certainly does exist in support of that, even if the question isn't settled yet. Here's a major paper you might be interested in. They look at a large number of math ability samples from around the world; not all have greater variability for males, but most do. They actually use this to argue against the greater male variability hypothesis, but really they're arguing that greater male variability is not innate (if it's innate it should appear in every sample), not that it doesn't currently exist, because most of their samples show that it does. And just it existing (even if its origins aren't biological) can have the effect that Summers suggested. (I don't actually think that if it's innate then it must appear in every sample, but I'm going to give the paper a re-read to see if they give a decent argument for that.)

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He also presents two other hypothesis, and the one we're talking about now is in the middle in terms of what he believes its importance to be:

There are three broad hypotheses about the sources of the very substantial disparities that this conference's papers document and have been documented before with respect to the presence of women in high-end scientific professions. One is what I would call the-I'll explain each of these in a few moments and comment on how important I think they are-the first is what I call the high-powered job hypothesis. The second is what I would call different availability of aptitude at the high end, and the third is what I would call different socialization and patterns of discrimination in a search. And in my own view, their importance probably ranks in exactly the order that I just described. [http://www.harvard.edu/president/speeches/summers_2005/nber.php]

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Wait a minute, who is banning people here? What I am saying is that if you want to argue with someone, you shouldn't pull misogyny/sexist/racist or whatever to end EVERY argument. It is not convincing. If you don't want to argue, then you shouldn't bother in the first place. I am not banning anyone here. Look, we are disagreeing with each other, and yet we are still having a conversation.

If I say something that I don't believe is to be racist, but someone else thinks it is, it is their right to say so. We don't have to agree on whether it is racist or not, but they certainly have the freedom to say so.

Yeah, but with the current climate with every single thing is racist/sexist, people are fed up with it. You want to cry racist? Go ahead, nobody is banning you. But don't be surprised if anyone else think you pull the race card for the sake of winning an argument.

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Are they called out for misogyny?

The only thing I can see is a false claim based on repeated misogynistic statements towards that woman. Take Anita Sarkeesian, who I do like. If I criticize the content of her videos, I might be called a misogynist falsely, but that's mostly because people kinda give her rape threats, death threats or misrepresent her points on such a regular basis that people are like, ugh, not this again.

I think that same thing happened to James Rolfe. Basically, the hatred for the new Ghostbusters movie was, fucking women as Ghostbusters, blargh! So when James was like, yeah, I don't want to see it, it seems dumb and my reasons might not be the best but I don't want to see it, and here's some examples of what could have made it better, people automatically assumed he was just another white guy who was sexist commenting on the movie.

Not that this behaviour is necessarily right, but I can see frustration in people when they hear or see so much misogynistic bullshit that they might brush aside actual points because they assume it's the same thing they've heard a million times. It also can apply the other way around. People who said anything remotely positive about the Ghostbusters movie, even it being a thumbs in the middle movie, were thought of as SJW shills.

[–]TheBlackQuillMisanthrope[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think that same thing happened to James Rolfe. Basically, the hatred for the new Ghostbusters movie was, fucking women as Ghostbusters, blargh! So when James was like, yeah, I don't want to see it, it seems dumb and my reasons might not be the best but I don't want to see it, and here's some examples of what could have made it better, people automatically assumed he was just another white guy who was sexist commenting on the movie.

I thought any movie that is deemed as classic and you remake it, it will doom to fail. Adding gender politics to the mix, well, it is not going to end well.

Not that this behaviour is necessarily right, but I can see frustration in people when they hear or see so much misogynistic bullshit that they might brush aside actual points because they assume it's the same thing they've heard a million times. It also can apply the other way around. People who said anything remotely positive about the Ghostbusters movie, even it being a thumbs in the middle movie, were thought of as SJW shills.

Yeah, I think people are sick of political correctness, to the point that they will lash out against other people who seemingly supportive of sjw stuff. They just don't care whether they are right or wrong anymore.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I agree with your premise (silence creates resentment) but disagree with your idea (matching female criticism with male criticism)

See, part of the good side of this sexual liberation for women is, they become more sexually active with more men more casually. Women like the idea of being free and in control of their sexuality. This in fact is a core component of women wanting to be desired(they want to be the ones to attract the hot guys).

What male criticism would do is make women less free and loose and create an even more hostile environment. They would lose the sense of freedom that make them sexual.

A much better idea, is for women to just stop criticizing the male sexuality. I mean specifically ridiculous things like "aggressive men are sexist and horrible and threatening" or "it's evil to just want to pump and dump a girl"

[–]TheBlackQuillMisanthrope[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

See, part of the good side of this sexual liberation for women is, they become more sexually active with more men more casually. Women like the idea of being free and in control of their sexuality. This in fact is a core component of women wanting to be desired(they want to be the ones to attract the hot guys).

But then, we get women who sleeps around and later on they complain when men find issues with their n count. Then, women cry sexist/misogyny. Women should be open to criticism regarding their choice and accept the consequences.

A much better idea, is for women to just stop criticizing the male sexuality. I mean specifically ridiculous things like "aggressive men are sexist and horrible and threatening" or "it's evil to just want to pump and dump a girl"

So basically, both male and female sexuality shouldn't be criticized, according to you?

But apart from that, I think both men and women's behavior should be open to criticism.

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The weird thing is the women around me are mostly all awesome and dont personally do this. This is the effect the culture around me is having however. But you cant discount that effect.

But there are certain extremely upsetting double standards. Like my lil sis is dating this guy and never has sex with him cuz her sex drive is super low. So she asks me why I have an open relationship with my girlfriend and then tells me its not fair to her (meanwhile my girlfriend has told me she prefers an open thing as she knows I love her but my sex drive is just way higher than hers, which bless her fucking heart for). So I tell her my gfs opinion and she says my gf is just saying that but doesnt mean it and that Im being an asshole for not giving her what she really wants. So I asked her if it was fair for her to not give her boyfriend what he really wants when she knows his sex drive is way higher than hers and rarely has sex with him anyways. So I asked her if shed be willing to compromise and in exchange for her boyfriend only sleeping with her she would be willing to bang him more often. Her response, "I should never have to have sex when I dont want to.". Well yeah no shit but thats not the point...

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