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If TRP advocates men to fuck "sluts" and marry "virgins," then why the whining with women fucking "alphas" and marrying "betas"?

GridReXX

February 25, 2015

28 upvotes

/r/PurplePillDebate

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Title	If TRP advocates men to fuck "sluts" and marry "virgins," then why the whining with women fucking "alphas" and marrying "betas"?
Author	GridReXX
Upvotes	28
Comments	223
Date	February 25, 2015 5:56 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2x4uf3/if_trp_advocates_men_to_fuck_sluts_and_marry/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/if-trp-advocates-men-to-fuck-sluts-and-marry.283319 https://theredarchive.com/post/283319

Comments

[–]YaBoiTibzzenjoying the blueper reels68 points69 points70 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

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[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

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[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]SirNemesistitties not tithe6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Okay, there you go (let's just for the sake of the argument roll with an ideal version of the TRP narrative, even though you don't share it).

The BB at the end loses. He is the consolation prize after the slut tired of wastefully chasing her actual prize(s). For more, he gets less than the other men before him - both a worse version of the women before as well as a downgraded version of her affection. Had he met the slut before, he wouldn't have gotten her back then, but been ignored. She settles for him. He has shown commendable behavior (studying, abstaining from partying, didn't use girls, hard-working etc.) but gets punished for it by getting a wife who few people actually want anymore, resents him for being less than she wanted, and makes his life miserable after all he wanted was to find love.

The virgin unicorn at the end doesn't lose. She is the prize in the game, not the consolation prize. She doesn't get less than the other women before her for more - neither a worse version of the women before her, nor a downgraded version of his affection. Had she met the alpha before, she would have gotten him back then. He doesn't settle for her. She has shown commendable behavior (studying, abstaining from partying, didn't use guys, hard-working etc.) and is rewarded for it by getting a widely desirable man who appreciates her and lives a fulfilling life with her. She wanted to find love and got it.

Of course this only works under the condition that their relationship doesn't deteriorate from either side, that it doesn't devolve into abuse or resentment, and that the alpha can indeed settle into a lifestyle of solidity.

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]LeGrandDiableBlancParochial Altruist42 points43 points44 points 11 years ago (112 children) | Copy Link

[–]rebuildingMyself9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PowerHuffGirl18 points19 points20 points 11 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sansa_Culotte_19 points20 points21 points 11 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]PowerHuffGirl9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sansa_Culotte_7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]PowerHuffGirl13 points14 points15 points 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

and absolve then of responsibility for their failures.

Their past failures maybe, but not their future ones.

RP tells men that they have to be strong and hold frame as much as they can in order to keep their woman attracted to them. It makes men aware of a responsibility that they didn't know they had. If a woman isn't interested, the man is actually blamed for not having good enough game, not lifting enough or not having enough money/status. Maybe you don't find it so bad, but nice guys who find it harder to achieve these things will have it worse than you.

As for women, the RP makes them aware of hypergamy, the wall, the fact that they can't be promiscuous without consequences or the fact that they can't attract a man with their status/education/intelligence even though men can. Unpleasant truths right there.

No wonder that many people prefer to keep dreaming that love is magic and that men and women are equal.

[–]QQ_L2PInterwebs Aficionado2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]hyperrrealLoves fun1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AutoModeratorBiased against humans[M] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PowerHuffGirl2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MamaTR-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]MamaTR-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]adrixshadowIndigo Pill(aka dark and evil occult pill)0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (20 children) | Copy Link

Men aren't angry that this is the case, they're angry that they have been duped about these facts and weren't provided with a full copy of the rule book (while being told that they were).

or red pillers are angry/bitter/depressed because they are less attractive to women on average (for a variety of reasons) and made up this worst fears rule book without conclusive empirical evidence, in fact in opposition to a lot of empirical evidence, and they are stuck in this angry reactionary delusion. did red pillers grow up isolated from a society of their peers where they could clearly observe what guys girls dated? this we-were-misled bs is such a ridiculous attempt to avoid the personal responsibility for their own failures/unattractiveness, to blame others/society/women for their inadequacy (because that's too hard to admit). did women hide who they were dating in high school, who they had crushes on? there have been a lot of threads lately about how attractive guys don't need to have any game/games. when will it occur to red pillers to focus as much as possible on attractiveness as that is the bulk of what matters in mating/sexual-attractiveness and let go of all this other non-sense (most of red pill) which is just an elaborate delusional world view to nurse/protect their ego / blame women for their unappealingness, and maybe a few tricks to obtain short term attention for women (which when it doesn't last will just recharge redpillers bitterness towards women).

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]AutoModeratorBiased against humans[M] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

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[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (66 children) | Copy Link

[–]LeGrandDiableBlancParochial Altruist27 points28 points29 points 11 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

I'm sorry. It's hard to take this seriously. It just seems dense at best.

Is it though? Can you find a non-manosphere source of information that provides dating and attraction advice beyond "Be nice. Do more chores. Don't act entitled!"

I am thoroughly convinced that men are taught that being nice and compassionate are sexy traits. No one outside of the manosphere is telling men to be dominant and to embrace their raw masculine ferocity.

Here are the top three search results for ‘dating advice for men’ via Google.

www.eharmony.com/dating-advice/dating/our-ten-favorite-dating-tips-for-men/#.VO4aLS4mHHc

The closest we get to any sort of RP advice is ‘Be the best version of yourself’. How do you do that? “…most importantly listen to her. Just smile, nod and listen.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/em-and-lo/top-5-love-lessons-from-the-bachelor-for-bachelors-bali_b_6745866.html

Don’t judge any women! Treat her with respect! Show more of your emotional side!

http://www.mensfitness.com/women/dating-advice/the-new-rules-of-dating

Expect women to objectify you, but don’t objectify women. Wait for women to approach you on line. When things turn sexual, “Take the initiative but then let the lady lead the way.” Also, make sure you’re always thinking of the woman’s perspective.

Let alone the shit being taught to men by their single mothers, which is always a projection of ‘don’t be like all of the assholes that fucked me and left.’ (Never mind that I let them all fuck me because how they acted was attractive to me)…

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points 11 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]QQ_L2PInterwebs Aficionado2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]QQ_L2PInterwebs Aficionado2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

True, some people realise this fact early on, but then, some don't. Maybe they don't have the right frame of reference or maybe they analysed the situation incorrectly.

What it seems like the other poster was saying was that for the people who never "got it", the first place that they got the answers to the questions they were asking, the answers that reconciled the difference between what they were seeing and what people were telling them, was TRP. By the same token that you were told "guys like cuteness", they never told you that "cuteness is a desirable trait when you are physically attractive". When you aren't attractive, being "cute" plops you firmly in the "nice" category.

I assume that's why he quoted the 3 top google results for the search "dating advice for men", all of it is generally feel-good stuff that doesn't address the core problem, you gotta make yourself desirable to be desired. It's the one lesson, that if you knew nothing else about attracting the opposite sex, that would serve you well enough that you would see results while being completely oblivious to everything else. And for whatever reason, some people just never realised this or were never told. I don't think there's a huge conspiracy against men, but at the very least, I think that the people selling the "feel-good bullshit" either genuinely believe it or are hocking it to cash in on someone else's misery.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sansa_Culotte_-3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]LeGrandDiableBlancParochial Altruist6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sansa_Culotte_-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

So what you are telling us is that RP guys are just people who are incapable of thinking figuratively.

Since we're talking about relatively young males here (during these experiences), I'd think a better way to put it would be "inclined towards taking things literally."

You may have also noticed that TRP tends to appeal to nerdy males. Ever sincerely wondered why? The answer is not "nerds hate women. The actual reason for this is that TRP provides an abstract theoretical framework with specific steps on how to implement it. This kind of abstract, explicit, methodical information is the kind of information that nerdy guys can easily process.

Compare that to the cascade of emotionalistic vagueness that makes up "mainstream" dating advice... i.e. "you just need to FEEL more!" "Show more EMPATHY!!!" "Pay attention to her body language!"

This is absolutely USELESS advice to people with an abstract cognitive style. You assume they just "aren't paying attention" to body language when in fact body language is like Cuneiform to someone who thinks this way. This fetish for "EMPATHY" and "FEELZ" is useless for people who prioritize thinking over feeling, logical and explicit over emotional and tacit.

And now you're going to try and argue that this natural temperamental difference is a failure on their part... an "incapability"... soon you'll be calling it a "disorder" and conflating it with Autism.

[–]Sansa_Culotte_-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's fairly easy to figure out why.

Yet again, you oversimplify a complicated matter and pour disdain on nerdy males. You only prove a point which Scott Aaronson alluded to and Mytheos Holt explored in detail: third wave feminism hates nerds.

They tend to uncritically accept, and attempt to adhere to, traditional male role models

This is unfortunately somewhat true, but you see this as making them into "the enemy." On the other hand, when women try to adhere to social standards of how women "should" be and fail to do so, you treat the women as innocent victims.

Nerdy men did not create the gender system, just so you know. They're victims of it too because they fail to conform to gender roles.

You should see their attempted conformity as evidence of self-hate, of their victimization in society, and of how they need a safe space of their own to at least try to construct an identity which actively rebels against the mainstream.

Instead, you are scornful and loathing of them and you treat them as the oppressor class.

And then you wonder why nerdy men are sceptical of the idea that "feminism will help men too."

They tend to buy into the ideal male image constructed by mainstream media.

So do women... Vogue and all those fashion magazines Naomi Wolf criticized in The Beauty Myth are all made for women and often by women.

Yet women, when this happens, are clearly poor innocent victims of the patriarchy who've been indoctrinated into self-loathing.

But nerdy men doing the same thing? Misogynist shitlords!

Why don't you see them as victims of gender norms? Why do you reserve all the victimhood for women?

Because of these two factors, they tend to equate their identity as men, as well as their social status, by the number of women they have had sex/relationships with

Again, you're forgetting the complexities of the plight of nerdy men; they fail to achieve the gender mandates for males. These mandates are not something they created - they're part of the culture more broadly.

Also, you are aware that women will frequently socially emasculate men, right? Women take part in perpetuating and constructing these norms through engaging in gender-policing. Every single time a feminist mocks nerds for being nerdy and calls them manbabies/manchildren/neckbeards-still-living-in-mom's-basement this feminist perpetuates the gender system she claims to be against.

As soon as you buy into the idea that sex translates to social status and women are trophies or achievements to be collected, you're already halfway there.

Your entire argument applies perfectly well, if not moreso, to gender-normative males. Indeed, gender-normative males are more likely to uncritically accept and attempt to adhere to traditional male role models (nerds have an incentive to critique these role models), more likely to buy into the ideal male image presented by mainstream media (nerds will often be more exposed to non-mainstream alternative media), and therefore more likely to exhibit traits 3 and 4.

Ergo, by your reasoning, TRP should not disproportionately appeal to nerds.

Yet it does. Which means your explanation is worthless.

Nerd culture and its relationship with traditional norms of masculinity is far, far more complex than you seem to think. Maybe instead of marinating in disdain you could actually do some research and listen to men's experiences for a change?

[–]Sansa_Culotte_-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sansa_Culotte_0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]LeGrandDiableBlancParochial Altruist4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

'Be confident' is about as useless a piece of advice as is 'just be yourself.' What does that even mean? What actionable points can you take from it? In short, it doesn't specify the specific type of confidence you need.

One of my good friends is an expert web developer. He is supremely confident in his ability to build and fix web pages. This has in no way increased his sex appeal. The same is true for my friend who is absurdly good and confident at fighting video games.

What people really mean when they say 'confidence' in this setting is dominance. Someone who leads conversations, has a plan of exciting things to do, and who doesn't take any shit from anyone. Building that dominant presence, and all of the tips and tricks to help you along your way is a great short definition for what pickup artists do. You have to go to manosphere-y PUA sites to find it, though.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later[🍰] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]relationshipdownvotethe blue pill is a suppository12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

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[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

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[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

It's not fluff, it's the key to the argument. A lot of Red Pillers seem to harbour some belief that somehow everyone else was supplied with a (true) 'rule book' at some point during childhood and that only they have been left out of this/assigned an untrue rule book.

Calling this:

Men aren't angry that this is the case, they're angry that they have been duped about these facts and weren't provided with a full copy of the rule book (while being told that they were).

dense is legit. It doesn't even consider the possibily that NO ONE has been handed a rule book and that we ALL - male, female, attractive, unattractive etc., need to figure the rules out on our own. I sat through Kindergarten classes about not judging a book by its cover, too. I was repeatedly told by teachers, parents and authority figures that "it's what's inside that counts" - most of us raised recently in the west were. I figured it out on my own that, actually, what you look like and what other people think of you is pretty damned important.

Your situation isn't special. You aren't a victim of society any more than any other human being is. It's on you figure shit out once you reach adulthood (although most of us know fairly early on what makes a person attractive to the opposite sex).

[–]relationshipdownvotethe blue pill is a suppository6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CyraleaRedPill Vanguard3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago* (38 children) | Copy Link

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[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, but if "real feminists" can show how the other's "feminism" doesn't line up with the most commonly accepted definition of feminism, that makes a persuasive argument regarding the validity of the other's position.

I and my friends could all go out into feminist space, claim that we are "real feminists", and then start talking about how women shouldn't be given the same opportunities as men, but there would be many actual feminists who could point out all the legitimate errors in logic that make our views legitimately not feminist.

Just like in feminism, Red Pill isn't just one person's word against another's. There is actually an pre-existing model with a logical structure that creates the standards. If the assertions of any given TRPer (or group of TRPers) does not fit in that logical structure, then it can't be considered "Red Pill". The fact that TRPers are making the assertion doesn't automatically give the assertion validity.

[–]YaBoiTibzzenjoying the blueper reels7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

[–]YaBoiTibzzenjoying the blueper reels16 points17 points18 points 11 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

[–]WhosCountinRGB: 175,0,7510 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]EnderVapedOl' Blue Eyes2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]WhosCountinRGB: 175,0,754 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Hahaha sorry about that, the end was intentionally hyperbolic. As someone who was born with mediocre genetics, I am kind of resentful that more thought isn't put into engineering the human race so people don't have to live the life of an average looking person, but I know that most people probably disagree with that.

Anyway, the connection between those ideas is that everyone wants to be with the sexiest people of whatever gender they're attracted to, and tends to ignore the less appealing options. This goes for the people who aren't that appealing themselves as well. It goes for me too. I'm like a 6 or 7 at best and I'm almost always disappointed with the level of girls I'm able to pull. I used to really resent/hate women for this before realizing how hypocritical that was. Women aren't bitches, I just didn't win the genetic lottery so my life is gonna be a pile of shit compared to that of a male model. The point being, everyone is picky and then gets mad when the opposite gender is picky. 100% of the population is shooting for that hot 10%, so almost everyone feels slighted and blames the other gender. If everyone was engineered to be hot, then it would be much easier for everyone to get with hot people and the genders would have much less reason to gripe about each other. Did that explain it a bit better?

[–]stubingPurple Pillz Here!1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]EnderVapedOl' Blue Eyes1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

I am kind of resentful that more thought isn't put into engineering the human race so people don't have to live the life of an average looking person, but I know that most people probably disagree with that.

This is where one would say "rabble rabble rabble Nazi rabble". The Nazi party were big proponents of eugenics, it's kind of a touchy subject to most people. In no way am I calling you a Nazi, I just wanted to explain why some people push back at that idea.

The point being, everyone is picky and then gets mad when the opposite gender is picky. 100% of the population is shooting for that hot 10%, so almost everyone feels slighted and blames the other gender.

I understand now, I just don't agree. I mean, there is of course a component to attraction that revolves around physical appearance. But it certainly isn't the main attractor. If it were, you and I would never get dates. However, I have a fiancee that is the best thing in the world to me. Pretty sure my life is better than a steroid-shooting male model that will never make intimate contact with anyone because they're so focused on his body.

If everyone was engineered to be hot, then it would be much easier for everyone to get with hot people and the genders would have much less reason to gripe about each other. Did that explain it a bit better?

Yeah, I gotcha. And I understand what you're saying. But even if we somehow got a working eugenics program up and running, it wouldn't really solve much. Sure, everyone would be a perfect 10, and they'd be miserable. If everyone's exactly as beautiful as you, that means they have similar facial bone structure, similar hair styles/colors, similar everything.

Ever see that Twilight Zone episode where the con man gets sent to heaven, where he wins every game he gets into? The reveal is that he's actually in hell. Because nobody wants everything to be the same. He's tortured because casino games are about both winning and losing, and it's the gamble that makes it exciting. If every woman looked eerily similar, you would stop having those "takes my breath away" moments. With little variation, physical attraction becomes null, and that's not a good thing.

It sucks that relationships are so tough, but that's actually a good thing. Finding a solid relationship is a victory, a goal that one can strive for. It's a gamble everytime you initiate with the opposite sex. We shouldn't be striving to make it easier for anyone, simply because it kinda operates on uncertainty. Referring to my previous mention of the Twilight Zone, if there's no uncertainty in something it gets boring. If you win every time, there's no challenge, and as humans we're really wired to seek out that challenge.

[–]WhosCountinRGB: 175,0,755 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

See, I think your perspective is much more in line with the general population. However, I just don't agree with a lot of points you made.

This is where one would say "rabble rabble rabble Nazi rabble". The Nazi party were big proponents of eugenics, it's kind of a touchy subject to most people. In no way am I calling you a Nazi, I just wanted to explain why some people push back at that idea.

First, I completely understand the Nazi connection and why people would not be into this idea. I don't even actually support it unless everyone on earth was on board (I'm a libertarian, so forcing people to selectively breed doesn't really work with that philosophy). What I want is for everyone to agree it'd be better for the later generations if we did that and work together for the best results, not have some government program forcing people to comply. Again, this is obviously a pipe dream with no possible basis in reality.

I understand now, I just don't agree. I mean, there is of course a component to attraction that revolves around physical appearance. But it certainly isn't the main attractor. If it were, you and I would never get dates. However, I have a fiancee that is the best thing in the world to me.

The happiest I've ever been was when I was with a skinny blonde who had the body of a model. She was kind of awkward, not experienced in bed, and although we were definitely at least like decent friends, there wasn't a ton of emotional intimacy. But fucking her was the only sex I've ever had where I was actually satisfied and wouldn't want to change anything about her. After that, I had a 2.5 year relationship with a girl who was probably like a 7 - she was way better in bed, we were best friends and totally in love, tons of intimacy, even ended up living together for a year. But the whole time I wished she looked more like my previous ex. She didn't have the perfect flat stomach, tiny waist, absolutely no excess fat, etc. And it bothered me because emotionally I did love her and she was hot, but I wasn't satisfied because I had been spoiled. She couldn't be "the best thing in the world to me" because she was physically inferior to the best I had been with. Even if I thought her personality was the best thing in the world. And again, she was pretty good looking! Just not perfect, and it's hard to go from perfect to anything less.

But even if we somehow got a working eugenics program up and running, it wouldn't really solve much. Sure, everyone would be a perfect 10, and they'd be miserable. If everyone's exactly as beautiful as you, that means they have similar facial bone structure, similar hair styles/colors, similar everything.

Angelina Jolie and Zoe Saldana are both incredibly attractive, but they look entirely different. The goal of the program wouldn't be to make everyone look the same, just to only have the most attractive people reproduce (and ideally have enough genetic engineering technology to ensure the best genes are selected). I think based on the way we're wired, if everyone was a 9-10, but there was still variation, we would all be very very happy with all the sexy people we were banging. It's not like the gambling thing because:

There would still be rejection, but it'd be more on personality and taste rather than someone being out of someone else's league.
It wouldn't matter if you got rejected, because it would still be really easy to find someone else who was a stunner.
This kind of goes with #1, but we could much more easily choose life partners based on personality, compatibility, and other less shallow things. As it stands now, I have to balance looks and personal compatibility - and based on my past experiences, I know that looks need to be weighed heavily even if I meet someone who is a perfect match in every other way. When I fell in love with that girl who was a physical step down from my amazingly hot ex, my feelings almost felt like a trap. I didn't want to care about her so much because I wasn't completely satisfied with my sex life.

If you win every time, there's no challenge, and as humans we're really wired to seek out that challenge.

You're right about the lack of challenge though. It would undoubtedly be easier to bang an amazing looking girl or guy, so it wouldn't be as much of an accomplishment as it is in this universe. But let's be honest: the odds of me ever banging a Katelyn Byrd (another totally different example of an amazing looking woman) in this universe are slim to none - unless I get an extremely expensive prostitute, and obviously that's not quite the same. I would much rather have sex with girls like that regularly even if it wasn't a huge accomplishment, because as it stands, I'd be extremely lucky to do that even once. And the odds of me ending up with a dime piece for the rest of my life are even lower. I'd rather have the sex all the time than the "challenge", even if I do manage it once or twice and get to feel like a boss for one night.

[–]stubingPurple Pillz Here!1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]EnderVapedOl' Blue Eyes-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ECoast_ManRed Pill Man6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

ha, i think the truth is some red pillers can get laid with women they are not physically attracted to enough to stick with (and/or just have intolerable personalities) and create this hypergamy/dishonesty story to deflect from facing the reality of not having access to more attractive saner females they would ltr but that won't give them the time of day. if all women suck then they don't have to feel down on themselves, face how much they suck.

red pillers hate the women they have access to because they are mediocre like they are. they mistakenly assume all women are like that. they have no experience with high quality women because they have never had access to them. elliot rodgers could have probably gotten ok looking girls (of similar mediocre smv to himself) but he was obsessed with girls that were out of his league (that matched his grandiose delusions of his own value) and it drove him to hate women, and men that got the women he wanted.

the solution to red pill anger is to accept their mediocrity and be fine with mediocre women or improve and get access to higher quality women. the former route is a more realistic option for most red pillers.

[–]ECoast_ManRed Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Again, have you ever once considered that men's perspectives are even worth listening to? No, you don't. As your post clearly indicates, any possible criticism a man raises must be because men are somehow inadequate. Maybe if they only got off their fat asses and weren't deadbeats, then men would be all happy and rainbows.

everyone is worth listening to, to some degree, but some people are far more accurate in their view of reality than others. and women who tolerate plating have only themselves to blame. people who take advantage of them are scumbags, but i would not go along with women passing blame on men anymore than i tolerate men blaming women for their mediocrity.

I am telling you that women generally have degraded in quality to the point of damn near unfuckable, let alone un-LTR worthy. Sit and muse that TRPers must be inadequate all you want.

and i'm telling you if we had pictures, heights, weights, ages, iqs, personality profiles of a representive sample of red pillers, we would find they are on average mediocre and/or have more personality disorder issues than average and thus have only had access to mediocre women, likely with their own personality disorder issues, and therefore can't speak to what most women (or men) are like because they fail to see the big picture as higher quality people avoid them, because people stick with those like them. this women have gone downhill argument is narcissistic bs, because mediocre red pillers need to look down on others to make them feel better (and avoid having to face/accept their own mediocrity). if the women you have been close to suck, guess what that says about you?

[–]ECoast_ManRed Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]stubingPurple Pillz Here!1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This has nothing to do with the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.** They are actually admitting the majority of RPers go through this phase** of being angry. They are actually admitting the majority of RPers go through this phase of being angry.

They're admitting they go through this phase but many negative ideals are attributed to the so-called 'Anger Phase' when that's often simply not the case. I mean, just look at the posting question. He was claiming that the guys whining about AF/BB were just in the anger stage and hadn't 'accepted the world for what it is.' That's verifiably untrue.

It's a NTS fallacy because it's essentially arguing those RPers simply are just new or haven't "evolved" enough or whatever the fuck. It always reads as "Well no real Red Piller thinks/says/does things like that!"

[–]stubingPurple Pillz Here!1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They're admitting they go through this phase but many negative ideals are attributed to the so-called 'Anger Phase' when that's often simply not the case.

Please expand? What negative ideals do RPers say only happen in the anger phase. Even not angry RPers still talk about how shitty the world is.

He was claiming that the guys whining about AF/BB were just in the anger stage and hadn't 'accepted the world for what it is.' That's verifiably untrue.

I would say maybe, but it doesn't matter if he is angry or not. That is how the world is in their opinion. So what if it is just an anger phase? For some people, that is the reason they complain. Others "complain" because they just like talking about and debating reality.

It's a NTS fallacy because it's essentially arguing those RPers simply are just new or haven't "evolved" enough or whatever the fuck. It always reads as "Well no real Red Piller thinks/says/does things like that!"

No one is denying that the people in the anger phase are real Red Pillers. Some go as far as to say it is part of being a RPer. There are definitely those that don't get over that anger phase and I would be surprised if you can find RPers saying that "everyone eventually gets over the anger phase."

I can see where you are seeing a NTS fallacy, but it is such a stretch.

[–][deleted] 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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No, it was usually the jock who made the guy make the homework. And if you had your average alpha bitch (usually a pretty but conniving and selfish cheerleader), she was so transparently malevolent that it was easy to dismiss her as a deviation from the norm. She was a bad person, one one wouldn't want to date anyway, a cliché.

I was entirely aware of the fact that players use women for sex and may string them along, but that your average friendly and likable girl (not the obviously conniving selfish bitch, not the hottest girl around, not the "out of your league what were you thinking you idiot"-woman, just your run-of-the-mill nice girl) may string along friendzoned guys only came to my attention when this happened to me; and at that point I noticed on how much of a regular basis this happened - far more often than the male fuckzoning which is so widely condemned. (and I actually maneuvered myself into the friendzone because I did the stuff I thought was expected of me. So there's that.)

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

First: how was it presented? If the guy was just some extra whose only role was to conveniently facilitate the lives of the girls, don't forget that people tend to see it like the gravedigger in "Guildenstern and Rosencrantz are dead" who says that Hamlet is a play "about a gravedigger who meets a prince" - they don't see themselves as the extras in the lives of others, but of the protagonist of their own.

Second: 2010 (no surprise I never really heard of it). Regardless of how incredibly helpful contempary stuff may be, it doesn't automatically refute the claims about the formative years of people who were already in their 20s by then. There's one pretty decent German comedy series that (though the focus of the series is ultimately on another subject) plays hilariously with all the fallacies surrounding dating instead of promoting them and makes them transparent - to such a degree that I would have considered watching it actually helpful. Alas, it was from 2006.

Third: if it's just a drop of reality in an ocean of wishful thinking, does it really matter? Of course I guess we'll find something that promotes reality instead wishful thinking, but I dare to say that most of the stuff still falls into the other camp. Because whenever love is made a subject, you'll be hard-pressed to see style #3 and #4 be presented negatively even though these positive presentations are a very basic part of the problem.

[–][deleted] 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ECoast_ManRed Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

Because in an ideal world women wouldn't be cock carouseling their prime years fucking me and 10 friends, and then trying to lock down a beta after their baby clock is hitting critical. One would think, a woman would spend her prime years locking down the long term mate, rather than squandering their opportunities to do so in exchange for paarrttty and ensuring they have something to contribute to the weekly slut ritual of 'sex talk brunch with the girrrrrllls'. As an aside, has anyone ever overheard this? It's disgusting.

This is not ideal for either sex, and it isn't the narrative most men are raised with. But guess what? It is what it is. TRP does complain about it, because it's not ideal and it gives tips on avoiding being stuck as beta bucks for sure. But TRP moreso provides advice on maximizing the male experience in this state of affairs.

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–]soylentblueissmurfsSoylent Red2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]soylentblueissmurfsSoylent Red4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later[🍰] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later[🍰] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ECoast_ManRed Pill Man6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

this was not your original question. You asked about why TRP complains about it. I believe I answered that for you.

As for this, I don't see how you draw the conclusion that marrying a man in your prime results in this. I wouldn't advocate waiting for marriage to determine sexual compatibility, ever.

This strategy might work for some, but their beta bux will never live up to the memories of blowing the alpha males in the club bathroom. Alpha widows are unhappy as soon as the wedding is over. What's the next big experience for me to satisfy my insecurity? Either wallowing in depression or striking up 'harmless' chit chat with her trainer. You know these women, you see them everyday. Sitting alone at a bar in her work clothes, having a glass of wine to herself. You can see in her eyes she's seen way too many cocks, and is now unhappy with her current beta.

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

Alpha widows are unhappy as soon as the wedding is over. What's the next big experience for me to satisfy my insecurity?

No they're unhappy that they aren't marrying their ideal. The same as all of these men who seem to be unhappy with marrying a "slut."

You know these women, you see them everyday. Sitting alone at a bar in her work clothes, having a glass of wine to herself. You can see in her eyes she's seen way too many cocks, and is now unhappy with her current beta.

You do realize that most women aren't "sluts." And that there are plenty of virgins who marry "betas" and have the same look.

The problem isn't about what they had in their past. If I marry someone I'm madly in love with, then it doesn't matter.

The problem is marrying someone who you don't value or marrying someone who doesn't satisfy you sexually or simply put marrying someone who you don't love, etc...

You don't have to have a "history" to realize you settled.

[–]ECoast_ManRed Pill Man3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ECoast_ManRed Pill Man5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]ECoast_ManRed Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]GridReXXit be like that[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I'm not hitting the wall until I'm probably 50. You it's 30.

LOL okay. Whatever makes you sleep better at night. Is that the best you got? For all I know you can be a balding 28 year old and I can be a black woman with excellent skin and the aging benefits of a ya know... melanin.

Even if successful in landing a BB, this former member of the 'cute people society' you refer to will be over at the dive bar. Sipping the wine, soulless eyes, wondering where it all went wrong.

Dear God.

My point is a woman marrying a beta at 21 whom she doesn't find sexually attractive or physically attractive will be just as "soulless eyes" as the woman who had fun in her 20s and married the beta later.

At least the the one who had fun can at least remember a time she felt horny to push her over the edge with her husband whom she doesn't want to fuck. Whereas the one who married the beta young is probably thinking on the fact that her entire sex life has been a chore.

Marrying a beta = dissatisfying marriage.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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Because TRP works from the idea that sexually, women are fundamentally interchangeable to men as long as they meet the required physical criteria, but men are not sexually interchangeable to women- so they fear not being sexually attractive to their partner.

So for them virgin/slut are behavioural traits that don't change their sexual attraction, as far as they are concerned there is no correlation between a woman's attitude about sex and her ability to be attractive. This is emphasised by a focus on the idea that men trade commitment for sex. While it is acknowledged that ideally she enjoys the process, the attitude is much more that she is serving him than her own need.

Of course there's a distinct deviation in opinion on what motivates promiscuity in women- the alpha cock carousel concept presupposes that being a slut is an involuntary consequence of failing to get alpha dudes to commit. The idea is that she degraded herself in a failed effort to get what she wanted- where as if you don't buy into the model you tend to see slut as a woman who enjoys sex enough to pursue it.

But even beyond the working models, its important to remember TRP members do not, as a rule, see themselves as inherently desirable. The idea of self improvement is that they don't think they are good at impressing women- so a woman who is not easily impressed is something they are leery of- given the choice they are not going to make the gamble because at worst they think she'll use them as a consolation prize for her failed dreams, something they see as ego destroying, at best they see that keeping her impressed will be a full time job. If you don't think you have a secure seat in club alpha you will be extremely gun shy.

This flies in the face of genuine high status women, who generally get to be raging sloots because the who point of being at the top of the heap is so different rules apply to you.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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