I'm politically on the left. How can we show people men's rights aren't a counter-wing response to liberal feminism?

Meyright · 2017-04-08T14:20:01+00:00

Since left wing authoritarian people (feminists) claim moral superiority over every other opposing view, they tend to push us in the right wing catogory to silence us and give our views a bad reputation.

Edit:

How can we show the world men's rights are not a right or left issue and are a humanitarian issue to stop this pissing contest?

Stay on the issues and be a bit more brave when it comes to market and advertise these issues. We need more of this

Imnotmrabut · 2017-04-08T15:21:38+00:00

In a thread just added there is Great Evidence.

"See graduation rates for girls vs boys at every high school in New York state"

It shows the growing Education Apartheid against boys.

Argue with zealots over rape culture and they backfire, but by de-escalating the issues you end up making them have to face reality.

THE BACKFIRE EFFECT
The Backfire Effect: given evidence against their beliefs, people can reject the evidence and believe even more strongly.
Abstract: When reporting scientific information, journalists often present common myths that are refuted with scientific facts. However, correcting misinformation this way is often not only ineffective but can increase the likelihood that people misremember it as true. We test this backfire effect in the context of journalistic coverage and examine how to counteract it. In a web-based experiment, we find evidence for a systematic backfire effect that occurs after a few minutes and strengthens after five days. Results show that forming judgments immediately during reception (in contrast to memory-based) can reduce backfire effects and prevent erroneous memory from affecting participants’ attitudes.
Nyhan, Brendan; Reifler, Jason (June 2010). "When corrections fail: the persistence of political misperceptions". Political Behavior. Springer. 32 (2): 303–30. doi:10.1007/s11109-010-9112-2. Full PDF

The Debunking Handbook
The Debunking Handbook, a guide to debunking misinformation, is now freely available to download. Although there is a great deal of psychological research on misinformation, there's no summary of the literature that offers practical guidelines on the most effective ways of reducing the influence of myths. The Debunking Handbook boils the research down into a short, simple summary, intended as a guide for communicators in all areas ... who encounter misinformation.
The Handbook explores the surprising fact that debunking myths can sometimes reinforce the myth in peoples' minds. Communicators need to be aware of the various backfire effects and how to avoid them, such as:
1. The Familiarity Backfire Effect
2. The Overkill Backfire Effect
3. The Worldview Backfire Effect
It also looks at a key element to successful debunking: providing an alternative explanation.
https://skepticalscience.com/Debunking-Handbook-now-freely-available-download.html

thrway_1000 · 2017-04-08T16:10:19+00:00

I'm on also on the left but feminism is a hate movement and needs to be called out. None of the problems men face will be addressed as long as feminists are in control of the narrative and have sway over policy makers. It is not a loud minority but a bunch of brown shirts that allow the hate to keep flowing by putting money and time into systems meant to advantage women and silence men.

the_unseen_one · 2017-04-08T20:00:32+00:00

I just equate my support for men's rights as my core liberal belief in fairness regardless of who you are. Yeah, women have some issues (mostly social at this point) that need addressing, but men also have issues that need addressing but are being ignored. When I approach things from this angle, most people, even my feminist, borderline man hating mother, listens to what I say and gives it serious consideration. I've actually brought my mom into the fold on a few big MRA issues like the draft and unappealing dating scene, so I'd suggest that.

DougDante · 2017-04-08T16:10:54+00:00

/r/mractivism has plenty of examples. Fighting for justice for foster children, boys who are raped, and veterans.

Vandechoz · 2017-04-08T20:49:10+00:00

Somehow you have to get the moderates to take a stronger stance against feminist activism than "well, those radicals aren't really the feminism I believe in..." without doing anything to actually publicly condemn the actions. A "Liberals Against Radfems" counterprotest in the middle of the Women's March would have been amazing, for example.

contractor808 · 2017-04-08T21:38:23+00:00

There's a lot of things to address here. First, the MRM is most definitely a response to feminism. There's no getting around it or sugar coating it. Nor should you. NOW has opposed shared parenting for decades and feminist policies like the Custody of Children Act were made to harm men back in the late 1800s. Feminism is not good, and it has to be countered.

Second, what is "liberal feminism"? "Liberals" in the US are not "liberal" in the actual sense of the word. It's a marketing term just like social justice, equality, undocumented immigrant, etc. "Liberal" is a term that generally ties one to the authoritarian, regressive left, not those who are for personal liberty.

Third, yes, feminism is a wing of the left. There's no getting around it. The Pussy March was not a product of republican activism. Conservatives don't run the school systems that preach feminism. The only reason you will see right politicians supporting feminism is because a) it's easy pandering b) they're spineless and won't stand up to it or c) it scratches their traditionalist "punish men, protect women" itch. This is why feminism, which is otherwise incompatible with both sides, has managed to get so far. It preaches women power one second and gynocentrism on the other.

I do roll my eyes when I read articles regarding men's rights or men's rights progression coming from an almost unanimously right-leaning source (website; author; company). I respect that, but it doesn't help the cause at whole insofar as: helping men.

You're bias is showing. Why wouldn't shedding light on men's issues help the cause? What does it matter that right-leaning sources are the ones doing so? Why roll your eyes at this?

Do you mean to say, "It doesn't convince my leftist friends when I show them these articles because they aren't open to information from these sources."? If that's the case, you can only restate the facts. If they won't hear it, then so be it. Either accept your friends don't understand/are opposed to men's rights or get new friends.

The only reason I wouldn't say men's issues aren't a right or left issue as the right isn't actively campaigning for men. The more appropriate description would be a "left against men" issue as that's where most opposition is coming from. You're better off converting "hard leftists" etc to actual liberals who stand for liberal values. There is no way that the Democratic party in the US will ever give the MRM a chance as they've stubbornly kept to their identity politics since the election. The left is promoting Antifa riots for heavens sake, and did the same for anti-Trump violence during the election. Ditch the toxic left and stand up for actual progressive values.

Deansdale · 2017-04-09T11:54:48+00:00

You're in a bad position my friend because progressives have hijacked the left, and nowadays the left is associated with identity politics instead of its orginial values like compassion for the poor. If you're not a cultural marxist you have to explain over and over again how you're not that kind of a leftist... Exactly like naive feminists explaining they're not that kind of feminists. The problem is the same in both cases: the representation of your camp in the political sphere is totally that kind of leftism/feminism. By calling yourself a leftist you associate with, and indirectly approve of people like Hillary, Merkel, Juncker, and so on.

To be more on point, you as an "originalist" leftist might not be the enemy of the MRM, but progressivism, ie. the mainstream left, is. Since the democratic party defines the left in the US as pro-feminist and anti-MRM, you can't show any mainstream leftist how the MRM isn't their enemy, because - no offense, but - your word means jackshit fuckall against theirs.

Now, since your version of leftism is practically an illusion (just like "good feminism") you'd be better off realizing that the MRM and the mainstream left are in fact enemies. Not because the MRM is a rightist movement by nature, but because it is mainly fueled by the overreaches and injustices of feminism, which is a progressive movement, like it or not.

From another perspective: as long as the anti-humanitarian ideology of identity politics poses as "leftism", not only all pro-humanitarian efforts will look like rightism, but they will have to fight against what people perceive as the left in order to move forward. This problem can only be solved by removing progressivism and identity politics from the left. Good luck with that.

Mallago · 2017-04-09T15:13:00+00:00

I'm the same way, I've always been liberal/democrat leaning until I started to realize what the left was becoming. I'm still naturally left leaning, but very much against the democratic party now that it's been taken over by radical elements.

2017-04-09T21:48:02+00:00

Third wave (and some of second wave) feminism isn't liberal feminism. Liberal is a important word and i mean it in the classical sense.

Liberal feminism is equality of opportunity. Modern feminism is equality of outcome. I think that's the key difference.

Third wave also has significant postmodernist influence, so it's illiberal in that sense too.

Look into queer theory, post colonialism, critical race theory, and other critical theories that are a part of third wave

McFeely_Smackup · 2017-04-08T18:26:16+00:00

How can we show the world men's rights are not a right or left issue

Focus on real, factual issues and don't bring politics into it. Don't let Ad Hominem attacks on Conservative members of MR groups derail the actual issues.

i.e. Mens homeless rates is not a liberal or conservative issue. stick to facts and force the opposition to expose their political spin.

user1492 · 2017-04-08T15:37:45+00:00

Start by not believing that everything on the right, or everything you disagree with, is evil.

MagicTampon · 2017-04-09T02:04:51+00:00

I will not temper my MRA viewpoints to appease anyone - liberal, conservative, makes no matter.

mikesteane · 2017-04-09T11:25:44+00:00

This happens sometimes. I remember Britain in the eighties and nineties when the big push against assimilation into the Union of European Socialist Republics came from the right. However, when push came to shove and the British people finally got a vote (last year), the big shout for "out" was largely from those most at risk, people whose jobs were threatened by out-of-control immigration and who would have tended to be left-leaning.

I suspect the same will happen with the MRM. While the big drive is definitely from those of us towards the right, I am anticipating a great deal of support from men who have lost their jobs to quotas, their children to family courts etc. and would previously have considered themselves both left wing and feminist.

equiposeur · 2017-04-10T00:45:18+00:00

MRA's connection with the political right is that we recognize governmental gynocentrism, and distrust of government drives one rightward.

PinkEyedGayDragon · 2017-04-10T10:24:04+00:00

ive been on the left too, until left told me im a subhuman white male and my issues dont matter.

Leinadro · 2017-04-08T14:09:48+00:00

I think the key is to stop giving so much attention to feminism.

I see a lot of posts here where feminism has at best some tangental realtion.

Like yesterday someone posted a video of a woman attacking a guy and the guy not fighting back or even protecting himself and OP titles it "Feminist attacks guy" or something like that yet there was absolutely nothing about the video that relates to feminism or any indication that the attacker was a feminist.

No, "Well, its something a feminist would say/do" isnt enough to flair a post as feminism.

The MRM really has to get away from dragging feminism into every conversation or trying to blame every bad behavior on feminism.

2017-04-08T17:30:01+00:00

We need to face the changing times. Men's Rights WILL be a response to the social justice warrior, political correct, far left wing, neo-feminism that has combined under one movement.

We will see A LOT of young men become interested in this movement to get away from the toxic new culture that has sprung up. And that's ok.

omegaphallic · 2017-04-09T13:14:33+00:00

The leftwing of the MRM needs to speak up more, right now the MRM rightwing is that loudest voice so its what gets heard.

Honestly I think at this point the rightwing of the MRM is holding back the MRM, because it focuses so much on feminism and not enough on things like income inequality and other sources of harm against men and people at large and that the right have very few to no actual solutions to the problems faced by men.

So its time the leftwing elements of the MRM start pushing to the front of the line and speak loudly and organize.

How many MRA blogs and vloggers are from the leftwing of the MRM are there, I can think of 1 feministcritic, that's all. The rest are all rightwing.

angstyart · 2017-04-08T13:51:58+00:00

Men's rights needs to shut down those in their group who are nasty, and focus on the parts of your arguments that really matter: unfair child custody and support, bogus sexual harassment, assault, and rape claims, discrimination against gay men, etc. don't let your loud bitchy minority overwhelm you. Feminist are seeing the same problem, because they are letting their loud bitchy minority overwhelm them.

LucifersHammerr · 2017-04-08T14:16:03+00:00

The problem is that MRM formed out of Men's Liberation in the 1970s - which was a response to feminism.

turiyag · 2017-04-09T06:45:13+00:00

Show them The Red Pill. Talk to them about your struggles.

And if there is a protest, remember that the media will capture you visually, they might not interview you. Have signs that show that you are good. Visually appear like a good person. Collect donations for people who are disadvantaged. Dress like a hippie. :P

2017-04-09T18:31:34+00:00

Why are you on the left? Is it because you're morally illiterate, economically illiterate or both?

2017-04-09T19:19:22+00:00

I don't think peoples political views should matter here, as long as we broadly agree with mens issues

kpak76 · 2017-04-09T23:31:43+00:00

You realize mens value aligns WAAAAY more with the right than the left dont you?

You also realize its the left (democrats) who jas assaulted mens rights from the get go dont you?

ThePigmanAgain · 2017-04-09T23:32:31+00:00

Despite leaning left -- really hard -- i don't see why we need to convince people we aren't right wingers. After all, in case you haven't noticed, the Left is pretty much dead. Hell, it would probably help our cause if people like you and i shut the fuck up about being lefties and let Rush and Co pick up our balls and run with them. Wait, that came out kinda wrong...

Vorpal_Spork · 2017-04-10T12:08:46+00:00

It's simple. There are legal rights and protections women have that men don't. Present them with the facts. They'll either deny reality or accept it. If it's the former there's nothing that can be done. It's like arguing with a creationist. It's impossible to convince someone who's determined to ignore evidence and live in a fantasy world.

rg57 · 2017-04-08T16:16:14+00:00

But we are the opposite to feminism, along the authoritarian-libertarian divide.

This is how you see feminism teaming up with tradcons and Islam. MHRM's natural allies include journalists and sexual minorities and the poor, and a lot more. They just haven't all been permitted (by feminists) to see that yet.

NeverVoteAgain · 2017-04-08T18:04:16+00:00

The left pushes men's issues away form their platform. The only place to go, if you want to find allies, is on the right. Unfortunately.

quackquackoopz · 2017-04-09T01:08:55+00:00

Feminism apologists out in force in this thread, just as more and more people are becoming aware of its toxicity and in-built antagonism towards boys and men, and we finally have a chance to gain some control of the narrative.

Fuck feminism. It's not the only reason, but it's a big one. Do not shy away from attacking it when related, 40 years of calm, reasonable response has done little.

2017-04-09T10:22:11+00:00

It's true that MRAs are mostly right-wing, possibly because for the left men, particularly white men, are an outgroup due to their "privilege". People sceptical of that will be driven to the right.

I don't expect men's rights movements to accomplish anything (have they?) and thus don't care much about outward perception. Some ideas are like are pretty right-wing, some are pretty left-wing, so what?

roharareddit · 2017-04-09T16:05:01+00:00

Fact: Feminism is a tool of the far left. The history of Feminism is deeply intertwined with Marxism and there is no escaping that.

Fact: When you criticize the core Feminist beliefs of denying fathers the right to call their children their own, the intrusion of the state into personal matters and the erosion, indeed elimination, of basic civil rights such as due process, freedom of speech and the presumption of innocence you are invariably called a regressive, overprivilaged bitter male. (read petty bourgeois) Classic Marxist language.

Fact: Feminism is Statism plain and simple. If you don't realize this you are a moron.

This is not to say that if you are an MRA you are required to be a Trump fan or that you cannot harbor any thoughts of the state being the solution to many of the worlds problems. However, calling yourself a feminist ties you to an absolutist mindset that is essentially statist.

Question to moderators: How the fuck did somebody who has a reddit account less than a day old get a sticky post in the Men's Rights sub admonishing them about how to talk and think politically?

Mens-Advocate · 2017-04-09T16:44:13+00:00

OP, just a possibility: Perhaps at the moment MR actually needs to align itself temporarily (not necessarily permanently) with the centre-right.

Though sympathetic to certain aspects of the left (such as gay rights), I recognise, as a simple matter of realism, that for the past half-century or more, the left has been an outright enemy of men's human rights; it has forced multiple waves of feminism upon us and - through extreme "political correctness" - deprived us even of the right to respond.

feminism = left and good men's rights = right and evil

If only for the sake of argument, we ought to consider the possibility that (for the moment):
feminism = leftist = evil, men's rights = rightist = good.

BoozeBumAddict · 2017-04-08T13:47:49+00:00

It's not an assumption if it's generally true.

There are a few right-wing feminists (e.g. Julie Bindel)

There are a few left-wing MRAs (e.g. Paul Elam)

But they're an exception to the rule.

In general MRA (as evidenced by this sub) leans either right or far-right while feminists lean far-left and liberal. It's just the way it is.

For example MP Phillip Davies, one of the most prominent MRA voices, tends to be right-wing, zionist supporting, anti-muslim, etc. At the same time almost all the UK MPs who identify as feminists are also left-wing.

2017-04-09T16:21:46+00:00

How many far-right religious literalist lunatics have you heard of that are against circumcision?

Title	I'm politically on the left. How can we show people men's rights aren't a counter-wing response to liberal feminism?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	75
Comments	206
Date	April 8, 2017 10:10 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/646bxv/im_politically_on_the_left_how_can_we_show_people/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/im-politically-on-the-left-how-can-we-show-people.926523 https://theredarchive.com/post/926523

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