Can you share your thoughts about “Why men love bitches” by Sherry Argov? I personally don’t understand why it gets recommended so much, half the book is about modeling yourself to male expectations.

bearded_dragonlady · 2021-12-05T18:14:09+00:00

It's been a while since I read it, but I remember I got some good aspects out of it, and some parts I disregarded. It actually gave me the extra push to break up with an ex. It's one of those books I would recommend to certain pickme friends of mine. It teaches them that prioritizing your own life above men is not only good for your mental health & personal development, but makes you more attractive in general. It sometimes opens the door to them listening to my advice about putting your own life first, since now they realize there are no downsides, even from a pickme perspective.

thanarealnobody · 2021-12-05T19:23:00+00:00

It was personally really helpful for me as I became new to relationships. In a chapter she describes how so many girls will sit happily in a guys room for a date, just watching him do things and they’ll just smile and be gracious. I recognised myself in that. The need to be the nice, polite, patient girl and put up with everything. I actually found it energising to read about how you shouldn’t actually care at all.

I know that it won’t work for everyone and that the idea of doing everything for a man is an iffy concept.

I personally feel like it gave me a confidence boost in helping me realise that I don’t need to make myself smaller for men and that I deserve better.

Peak_Tree · 2021-12-05T19:33:33+00:00

I think it's appealing to many new FDSrs because it's a pretty light book and talks about not being a doormat ( which is a novel POV for many women because they come from pickmeland) but I also don't like it because of what you said.

I had already outgrown that book several years before FDS because I was recommended "why does he do that?" and after reading that book there's no coming back.

europoor24 · 2021-12-05T17:01:40+00:00

I think the book has good messages from what I remember ; having a life, being busy not just pretending to be, if he behaves badly well you’re putting yourself first anyways so you won’t be chasing after him, not overdoing it on presents/effort when you barely know them. I think it’s good for people who are still getting some self respect/esteem.

fireforestfairy · 2021-12-05T16:54:02+00:00

I agree with what you've said. I think the book is about pretending to be hard to get when you're a pick me.

Platipus6 · 2021-12-05T22:47:10+00:00

It was written in a time when men weren't porn addled sloths and women who were very marriage minded (aka they were 100% determined to get married above all else but still had pickme tendencies that were putting off the "good men"), using these tactics could actually get you a decent 1950's man.

It really needs to be updated (again) to deal with the dumpster fire we see before us today.

Not_2day_Baby · 2021-12-05T21:58:50+00:00

I actually liked the book and it helped me a lot with how to deal with certain situations. I don’t agree with everything but I think it’s a good start for any woman who is used to be a doormat in relationships and wants to change that. Personally the book that changed me completely was “Fuck him” by Brian Nox. Even though it’s written by a man, he really has a lot of good points. I bought it for learning about relationships and I loved it because it helped me grow my self worth. Would definitely recommand it over “why men love bitches” though.

normabelka2 · 2021-12-05T17:05:18+00:00

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all_or_nothing_bet · 2021-12-05T18:46:38+00:00

It is NOT about modeling yourself to male expectations. It is about AVOIDING certain men by not putting yourself into a vulnerable, dependent position, avoiding bad relationships, and first and foremost - weeding out useless, lying scrotes who will take advantage of you if you're not establishing strong boundaries.

It is about how to be a HVW and entertaining only men who display HV traits.

I don't know how so many women miss such important points of the book and see something completely different. It's puzzling.

QueensJuju · 2021-12-05T17:01:52+00:00

I really hate that book and I wish it would be removed from the recommended reading list. That book is what people who don't understand FDS think we're about: manipulating LVM into relationships to avoid being alone.

The book doesn't encourage self confidence or independence outright, it encourages these things because men supposedly find those traits attractive. There are some throw away lines about how OF COURSE you're behaving this way to better yourself, but if in the meantime you don't feel confident and don't have self respect, just fake it till you make it. Meanwhile, don't be too "emotional" (discuss feelings), because men can't handle that. There are no HVM in that book, only LVM you can train to act with the bare minimum of decency.

One shit example I think involved a woman declining a date because it was the same night as her knitting circle - this is good, we should prioritize our own interests and commitments. But it was framed as doing this will let a man know you have a life outside of him, it will show him you're not needy, etc - if the book framed this simply as dating strategy and made that clear I would feel better about it, but it seems to leave any and all personal development out of the equation. We can all go through the motions of behaving with self-respect, but if you don't actually have it dating is still very dangerous. The story ends with the man in question being so skeptical that any woman would turn him down for a knitting circle, that he stalks her and follows her to make sure she's actually going where she says she is. If I recall the man is not called out for stalking, it's not called stalking. It's seen as a successful example of garnering male attention 🤮

Fuck that book.

preppykat3 · 2021-12-05T19:36:13+00:00

I love it because it teaches you how to give men a dose of their own medicine. I also read the art of seduction a lot. Men think women who read these are evil and I couldn’t care less. As with anything, you cherry pick the advice that you like and discard the rest. I can see why a lot of people would be turned off by having to “act dumb” and you don’t have to follow that. But this tactic can be used to manipulate men in certain circumstances. I don’t understand why anyone would take ALL the advice and follow it 24/7. Some of it is dumb.

chickenery · 2021-12-05T18:04:58+00:00

Even the title of the book pisses me off. Like it or not, if you publish a book called Why Men Love Bitches, you are normalizing women being called bitches. Also, who cares what men, as a group, love? Last I checked, we are about decentralizing men’s desires and prioritizing our own desires. I don’t need advice on how to fit myself into a mold that some man will like and appreciate… I’ve spent a lifetime learning how to do that; it’s called living in society.

I_know_right_AS_IF · 2021-12-05T20:09:57+00:00

I just really hate the chapter where she recommends serving a date cocktail weenies and some nasty sauce for dinner. I just can't ever imagine a scenario where that's ok. I tried picking it up again recently and that part just upsets every fiber of my being.

Healingirl · 2021-12-05T21:49:15+00:00

Oh my god thank you!!! I was thinking the exact same while reading. Hate it. There are some good points but most of it is about trying to turn a LVM into a HVM...

The book "he is just not that into you" is much better. Concise and straight to the point

1x9x1x7 · 2021-12-05T20:38:09+00:00

I can see why people think this, but it's not about what ANY man wants and expects. If that's what the book was truly about, the examples of how to behave would be much, much different. She gives the example in the first chapter of not cooking him elaborate meals or giving him elaborate gifts. I've seen plenty of posts on here about LVM who, on the first date or two, want you cook him a nice meal. LVM want this treatment; if Argov's book was about pleasing men, she wouldn't be advising you against stuff like this. It's about what a man is going to prefer in a woman to commit to for a serious relationship.

I think FDS is similar in that, we talk about LVM vs HVM behavior. Even though FDS talks about disregarding LVM time wasters, it's not about disregarding all men - it's still a dating strategy. FDS coaches us to vet men a certain way, so we can weed out the losers. Argov basically says a man isn't interested in a relationship if we give in too easily, and although FDS doesn't quite say it like this I don't think, there is an implication that HVM are going to respect our independent behavior, not get pissy about it like LVM. They're going to like that we're independent and don't waste time with people draining our energy. A HVM is probably not going to be into a woman who puts all her eggs in one basket (and I mean, we as women do not want that from a man either) as soon as he shows interest in her and give herself away to him completely.

FDS's point is that if a man does expect this eggs-in-one-basket behavior, you need to run because he's not long term, committed relationship material. FDS does not say, never have sex with men, but vet him until it's clear that he's not here to get his dick wet. Argov says men want sex, yes, but they aren't going to see themselves committing to a serious relationship with you if you give it up easily. Men like sex whether they're low value or high value, but the difference is the high value one will not mind waiting if he truly wants to commit to you.

I think the point of contention here is that Argov's framing seems to say that all men will want to commit if you act this way, whereas FDS explicitly says that not all men are looking for commitment so you need to vet. "Men will do this if you do that" vs "Not all men are going to do this, so know when to cut it off and move on." But at the end of the day even if the framing is a little jilted, I think what she says is ultimately true and aligns with FDS.

thinktwiceorelse · 2021-12-05T18:14:48+00:00

It's like a pickme and a "cool girl" mixed together.

The_Cat_Empress · 2021-12-05T19:14:29+00:00

IMO I’m not a fan of using “b**ches” to refer to women with boundaries. I’m sure the book has some good tips but I’d rather read “The Gift of Fear” first. That’s why FDS is so great though, you ladies always have a new perspective on things and it’s awesome.

GoldandGlowing · 2021-12-05T21:05:45+00:00

I read both books recently and I can’t for the life of me imagine why people think Sherry Argov is pro-FDS. The points themselves aren’t a problem (for the most part…) but a lot of the examples she would write to support them were extremely pick-me and dripping internalized misogyny.

Beyond even that, there were some throwaway comments that caught the side-eye. Wear new lingerie because if he sees they’re used he’ll think you’ve been around the block? If he tries to grope you on a date, play it off and pretend it didn’t happen? Don’t tell him what you like in bed and go with the flow because he’ll think you’re a drill sergeant? …Yeah imma pass on Ms. Sherry.

elainejay82 · 2021-12-05T20:51:31+00:00

So funny, I was just thinking about this book and this exact question!

There is some really great advice in there about putting yourself first, but where the book falls short for me is that the end goal is how to get a man. If it had more in it about being happily single until you encounter a man who is acting right, I would give it an A instead of a B.

For me, I've really picked out parts from the book that were most beneficial for me and have ignored the rest.

capresesalad1985 · 2021-12-06T00:14:47+00:00

I know shallon Lester is a bit controversial around here but she did a whole series reading excerpts from the book and talking about points woman should pay attention to. The author then filed a copy write claim making shallon take down the video. Now I don’t always agree with shallons points of view but she got that book more publicity than it had in YEARS, and the pickme author had an issue with that.

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