Does this sub believe that "traditional" masculinity and/or gender roles should be promoted/encouraged?

a-man-from-earth · 2023-03-19T23:05:44+00:00

There isn't one stance on this question here. There are some who hold erasure of gender as the goal, and there are others who hold that that throws out the baby with the bathwater.

I think that masculinity is obviously important, but the content of that is up for discussion. Women have largely gone thru liberation from traditional gender roles, but men have not. Not much has changed since Warren Farrell wrote The Myth of Male Power.

I don't think that we should hold on to or return to traditional masculinity as much as that we should redefine it. I believe that attempting to erase the whole male-female dynamic would be catastrophic.

Everyone should have the freedom to be who they want to be (within reason), but certain masculinities will work better in social environments than others. That is something we need to realize.

TisIChenoir · 2023-03-19T23:13:46+00:00

I don't know what to tell you man. I've been following this sub for quite a few month, and I've never really seen people saying we should enforce traditional gender roles. But I've not read every single post either.

I find in that sub quite a lot of respite. It's a men's right sub, but without right- wing edge, and without the self-flagellation of other left wing male subs.

People here, from what I see, are not particularly in favor or traditionalism. BUT, advocate for the idea that part of the traditional gender roles are born from both historical survival needs, and biology. Basically refuting the idea that gender roles are something enforced by a patriarchy to subjuguate women.

And an idea I feel most people here share, is that it's men's role to define what is masculinity, and feminism branding part of it as "toxic masculinity" oversteps its boundaries. Whatever we want to be, it's us who must decide. Just as it's not men's place to define what is femininity. We might highlights some part of femininity that are not ideal, but we don't have the right to say "a true women is A+B+C-D" like we've seen society say about men time and time again.

Aand as it's late where I'm from, I'm starting to lose my trains of thought, so I'll stop here, and tell you welcome, and I hope you'll find what you seek here.

TheBananaKing · 2023-03-20T00:03:58+00:00

Hell no.

Stop telling people how to do their gender is the name of the game.

However, that cuts both ways: if people want to be all trucks-and-meat, that's absolutely fine, there's nothing toxic or bad about any choice, so long as people aren't pressured into it.

And that's where conflict comes in - there's an understandable backlash to the trucks-and-meat stuff, as it has a long history of association with being mandatory and the standard by which people should be judged.

And so it's often held up as being toxic and shitty in and of itself, which is of course toxic and shitty, and leads to people getting defensive and in-people's-face about it and there's a whole cycle of suck that results from that.

Everybody needs to take a step back and fucking chill.

A parallel might be religious belief, used as a means of coercion and oppression and all around horribleness for millennia. It's not surprising that a society slipping out from under the thumb would aggressively reject all of it, and treat believers as Part Of The Problem, to be denigrated and shunned and called out for their role in oppressing people.

And you can make a pretty case that the symbol needs to be broken and stripped of its authority, that the fire-and-brimstone street preachers should be mocked, and the cardinal-pell types should get trash thrown at them if they show their face in public.

But honestly if people want to go around quietly believing in stuff, and wobble around on their knees telling the ceiling how much they love it, that's entirely their business and people shouldn't be dickholes to them about it. Take away the coercion and control, and it becomes entirely harmless and a completely valid way to live, so long as it's a free choice.

Stoicism isn't toxic, it's a useful and important approach to life, as part of an entire toolkit of coping strategies. What's toxic is forcing people to use it as their only strategy, and shaming them when it fails.

Absolutely we need to teach our kids that it's OK not to be OK, that crumple zones save lives, that it's not their job to just tank all the damage and be a rock for everyone else, that they deserve empathy and compassion and that they have permission to fall the hell over if they need to. But at the same time, we also need to teach them they don't have to fall over if they don't want to, and how to go about that. Falling over hurts, dammit.

Troll4everxdxd · 2023-03-19T23:39:55+00:00

In my opinion, it shouldn't be demonized like some progressive spaces do. But men and boys shouldn't be pressured to conform to that traditional "stoic, hardass never cry or be vulnerable" type of personality. If they are predisposed naturally to that sort of attitude is one thing, but they shouldn't be forced into it.

Overall, I don't think that neither men nor women should be limited to any roles. Boys and girls should simply be taught to not mess with people around them and to not let others mess with them. How they express themselves, what traits and quirks they develop, is up to the children.

I'm a rather average looking dude physically, but I love the traditional ideal of a strong, muscular somewhat hairy dude, and that's what I pursue by going to the gym. Not because my parents pressured me, but because that's what I want. Personality wise I'm rather sensitive, empathetic, averse to conflict, diplomatic and also kind of fearful and awkward, and my parents never condemned those traits in me and I'm grateful.

WeEatBabies · 2023-03-19T23:35:53+00:00

I would be a house husband cooking meals and taking care of kids in a heartbeat if I could!

I love cooking, I would cook really fancy meals for fun!

AskingToFeminists · 2023-03-20T10:14:27+00:00

The stance over here seems pretty much to be "masculinity doesn't have to be x or y, nor does it have to not be a nor b. But here's a few reality checks that might be useful"

I've seen a lot of comments recently on here that seemed to be at least somewhat in favour of "masculinity" and traditional gender roles.

Define those terms. "Traditional gender roles" appeared for a reason, and have some amount of use, and some people appreciate them. Good for them if they do.

"Masculinity" obviously is something positive, why wouldn't you want to see comments that are in favour of it, on a sub championing the defence of men?

Personally, as someone who was raised in a very "be a man/boys don't cry" environment and hated every second of it

Personally, I'm slightly on the spectrum, I was raised to believe everyone is equal and should be treated the same, that boys could cry, and it actually turned my life into a living hell because I actually believed it and applied it. I treated women the same as men, and they hated me for it. I cried when I was sad and didn't hesitate for a second to show my emotions, and it turned me into a gigantic bully magnets, which drove me to suicidal and homicidal ends.

It took me a while to realise rhay really, boys shouldn't cry, for their own good. Not because "it's not manly", but because society view men who cry with a deep contempt, men who show their emotions with fear or disgust, and really, being stoic actually helps dealing with emotion better rather than being overwhelmed by them. The empathy gap is real, and stoicism is actually more emotional competency than just getting overwhelmed and letting it all loose without control.

So, different strokes for different folks, I guess. What I learned from my experience is not that what I was taught was bad and to be wholesale rejected, and that it. Ain't be appropriate for anybody. What I learned is that nuance is good and there are things to be learned from everywhere. Maybe you should take a moment to reflect on that rather than just "I think this sort of thing being encouraged is pretty counterproductive to both healthy masculinity and overall mens advocacy."

Not everyone has your temperament and your inate abilities. As such different forms of messages are more appropriate to different kinds of people, and some people would have thrived better from more of what you hated in what was taught.

One thing to note also about "traditional" anything is that people do it often without understanding why they do it. But often, there actually is a why, and it can be good to seek to understand that why before rejecting it wholesale.

Yeah, "boys don't cry, it's not manly" is absurd, it's more "boys shouldn be hesitant to emote in public, society tends to not be empathetic to them, and might add insult to injury" that should be taught. It's understanding why the traditional approach is there. Actually, understanding that being able to keep your emotions in check is a valuable skill could be good, and society could benefit from women learning that skill more, too.

Because the benefit you can derive from understanding traditionality aren't limited to being used in the traditional way.

My ideal world would be one in which everyone is allowed to define their own "masculinity" and "femininity" for themselves

My ideal world would be one where you can tell kids to run with scissors, as scissors would just unsharpen if kids fall. But in reality, it's not how that work. I try to pursue things compatible with reality.

Masculinity and femininity are more or less defined in big parts by the opposite sex, with another part being defined by the other members of their sex. The individual's opinion has very little impact on what is or isn't masculine/feminine. What depends on the individual is how well they live their divergence from the norm, and what can be more easily changed on a societal level is the level of acceptance of that divergence.

It's what you see with how women have been freed from gender roles : people still have a notion of what is or isn't feminine, it's just that as a society, we don't give much of a shit if individual women diverge from that. That's the kind if goal that would be good to pursue for men.

I'd want them to wear their hearts on their sleeves and to believe in kindness and love. I believe this is vital in reversing the empathy gap towards men.

Been there, done that, doesn't wish that on anyone. And I'm not living in a particularly conservative place. I'm not convinced that's such a great idea, nor that it would really work.

BloomingBrains · 2023-03-20T07:06:40+00:00

I haven't really seen people on here advocating for traditional gender roles. Hell, I've openly talked on here about how I crossdress, can be classified as a femboy, etc. and I've had less (read: no one) attack me for it compared to subs like r/rolereversal which is a sub that (in theory) should celebrate such men.

Not that that necessarily has anything to do with men's advocacy, just using it as an example of how this sub is actually a lot more open-minded than many modern feminist-influenced subs that merely claim to be.

Traditional gender roles are almost like the logical antithesis of true men's advocacy. This sub is very much influenced by the Warren Farrell school of thought, which is less about traditional gender roles and more about role equalization. A man should have the right to stay at home OR work, the same as women do. Men should be free to be vulnerable. Men should not have be limited to the provider protector role. etc. All of this is anti-traditional roles. Which isn't to say that traditional roles are bad, just that people should be free to have a choice without being ridiculed for it.

Personally, I think we should be (and are starting to, though maybe not fast enough) moving towards a society where gender is more of a personal aesthetic/physical expression than a collection of traits. I think everyone should aspire to adopt the positive aspects of both masculinity and femininity. Be strong when needed but also empathetic when needed, regardless of whether you chose to wear pants or a skirt, or whether you like sewing or shooting guns. Associating positive traits like "empathetic" to femininity/women or "strength" to masculinity/men is just stupid and toxic.

ProfessionalPut6507 · 2023-03-20T07:36:12+00:00

I do not think people want to enforce anything. I think the argument is that we should not demonize traditional gender values. You know, what being a progressive should be about: leave everyone live their lives the way they want it to.

Maldevinine · 2023-03-19T23:50:44+00:00

Gender roles are production maximisation systems. They existed because they increase the output of the society in total.

The reason why men's gender roles have not had the same weakening as women's gender roles is that because through automation and increased healthcare, the highest possible rate of childbirth is no longer a limiting factor on a society's power. Men doing dirty and dangerous jobs, and working themselves to death at jobs, are still important for maximising total productivity.

So we won't get a destruction of men's gender role until we move to a post-scarcity society that is not in conflict with either the environment or other societies.

LoganCaleSalad · 2023-03-20T02:25:16+00:00

It's subjective. If you're someone that prefers traditional gender roles for relationships that's fine. If you prefer more modern that's ok too. What's considered masculine can be very subjective. Universal symbols of masculinity I think we can all agree on is discovering & focusing on a purpose, taking care of ourselves both physically & mentally, being confident in who we are & what we believe in regardless of what others judge us for. If you're shy be shy nothing wrong with it. If you're outgoing & gregarious that's great too. It's about understanding who you are & being comfortable in that that know one else's judgment of you matters. To me THAT is masculinity.

WingOutrageous9987 · 2023-03-20T10:55:58+00:00

I don’t see any reason to be so rigid.

I’m mostly here because I don’t like how masculinity is seen as a sort of a smelly garbage bag in leftist circles.

hendrixski · 2023-03-20T19:28:19+00:00

Personally, I think gender roles hold us all back. They divide us lower classes against the men and women in the top who benefit from our oppression. So I think traditional gender roles in general suck, both traditional masculinity and traditional femininity.

Also, they're both harmful to mental health. So no traditionalist crap for me.

mycatischillest · 2023-03-20T21:11:35+00:00

I hate gender roles. Men should be whoever they are without being shamed for whether theyre too masculine or feminine. It shouldn't matter

nebthefool · 2023-03-20T08:20:06+00:00

I think it's important to highlight the positive aspects of "traditional" masculinity. Strength and endurance are excellent traits to have as is confidence. The important part is understanding there aren't any inherently masculine traits, nor are there any traits exclusive to masculinity.

The key is flexibility with whatever traits you look to posses. Being stoic and having a handle on your emotions under pressure is very useful. Defining it as the only way you can be so you never express emotion in dangerous to your well being. Being stoic but flexible on when it's necessary is a decent way to get the best of both worlds. A big problem today is that most men aren't comfortable showing emotion infront of anyone so it's hard to know when someone's going through the absolute wringer or just handling things fine. That's a good scenario for when rigid adherence to a trait gets to be unhealthy.

Poly_and_RA · 2023-03-20T14:59:45+00:00

The sub has a diverse set of people with lots of different opinions on this.

I personally don't see any reason to encourage or promote traditional gender-roles, I'd vastly prefer living in a world where outside of dating gender just wasn't that important and where it was taken for granted that anything that's acceptable for people of one gender, is equally acceptable for people of any gender.

Reckless-Pessimist · 2023-03-20T17:33:19+00:00

Not promoted or encouraged, but it shouldnt be shamed either. Freedom is key. People should be free to be traditional or non-traditional.

MemeMasterBill · 2023-03-22T01:41:39+00:00

Men should be able to make their own choices, whether they want to conform to traditional standards or stick out from them. If you want to be masculine, great! If you want to be feminine, also great! We fight for men's rights, and choosing what role you want to take is definitely a right.

Ok_Line_886 · 2023-03-20T07:33:49+00:00

At least in my opinion, a man should be able to define his own relationship to his masculinity. It that means being a "traditional" man then great! If that's something different, then just great! For the record, I was literally just balling my eyes out over a really sad anime and I am not even the tiniest bit ashamed to admit it.

Be yourself. I think most people here would agree that the most important thing is just the freedom to be yourself.

Minastik · 2023-03-20T06:51:34+00:00

I'm sorry to inform you that the sub is just a repository in reddit files, as far as opinions of individuals go, there's a lot of us and we vary quite a lot.

krautbube · 2023-03-21T05:19:20+00:00

I mean this is pretty much a non-story anyway.
This topic is big in online circles and essentially does not exist outside of it.

Also what even is this "traditional" even supposed to mean.
I consider it quite the meme that parents are punishing their child for wanting this or that toy that they disagree with.

Most parents are normal people who give their kid the toy or the general idea of the toy that their child wants.
Because otherwise they won't hear the end of it.
"You can't play with X because it's not for boys/girls" won't stop the child from making a fuss.

Syndocloud · 2023-03-21T12:11:20+00:00

NotCis_TM · 2023-03-20T04:03:38+00:00

It's tricky because different people understand the word "traditional" differently. I tend to picture a well-educated late Victorian gentleman who earns most of the money and technically leads the household but doesn't micromanage, and who doesn't ignore his emotional side or his personal care (as in trimming body hair, showering frequently, being well dressed, etc.).

This is very far from our current typical masculinity as today we say that men shouldn't cry, accept that men are shit at personal care and we see ever less men in universities.

Ericrobertson1978 · 2023-03-20T11:13:41+00:00

I'm completely against the whole alpha, beta, sigma, machismo, misogynistic, toxic manosphere bullshit. It's insane and counterproductive.

There's certainly such a thing as toxic masculinity, and it's unfortunately extremely common.

I think 'traditional' gender roles are silly. For the most part, humans are capable of doing just about anything we put our minds to.

There's nothing wrong with crying, being emotional, or being vulnerable.

It's truly unfortunate that so many insecure young men have fallen victim to these ridiculous manosphere grifters.

Hopefully they grow out of it, because it's a terrible mindset to have.

I loathe the status quo, and I'm vociferously against conservatism. (so I'm not much for 'traditional' anything)

astonesthrowaway127 · 2024-10-16T13:28:05+00:00

1950s-style gender roles are largely worthless and unrealistic for the vast majority of people, especially in today’s economy.

I’m probably biased because I’m a masculine woman. I have a naturally more masculine personality, but I am considered particularly unemotional for a woman because I was punished at a young age for being vulnerable and used my masculinity to protect myself. Like a lot of people here, I suppose.

In my experience traditional gender roles have to do with agency and value. Men historically have had exaggerated agency, high active value, and low passive value. Basically they’re valued for what they can do (high salary, career prospects, defending the home/family, athleticism, etc), not for what they passively are. Men are expected to take charge and be proactive and assertive even when it is harmful for them. Conversely, women have historically had reduced agency, low active value, and high passive value. They were valued for passive intrinsic qualities (beauty, fertility, virginity, etc) rather than what they could do. Obviously this is a bit oversimplified but it’s the general trend.

Both of these things are wrong to me. Ideally we would cultivate a balance of active and passive value in boys and girls, and encourage a realistic sense of agency. A reasonable amount of emotional toughness and resilience is valuable for girls as well as for boys, and the ability to outwardly show vulnerability should be encouraged in boys as well as girls.

Any-Bottle-4910 · 2023-03-19T23:21:54+00:00

Anyone with any sense knows that there are biologically derived norms that accurately describe the average individual from each sex. Cultures build upon these and accentuate them at scale as well. However, each human has their own set of traits, and is their own person.
I’m also a “man’s man” as the saying goes. I’m a veteran, I lift weights, I used to get into fist fights, I have a deep booming voice, I’m an engineer, etc.
I also love art. I’m creative and emotional by nature, and have input when we decorate, tear up at sappy movies, and cried when my middle child scored her first soccer goal.

I once asked my father what the definition of a man was, and he had a simple answer: a guy who can take care of himself and at least one other person.
So I asked what makes a good man. He answered with: the kind of guy who wants to take care of at least one other person.

If you meet those two requirements, you are very much a man in my book.

ArmchairDesease · 2023-03-22T13:33:02+00:00

Drinking beer, disliking musicals, not wearing makeup/jewels, acting tough, liking sports...those are all superficial traits. Any liberal will tell you that you can adopt them or not, it's up to you. And I agree.

But "traditional masculinity" goes much deeper than that. What it really entails becomes obvious during crisis. During catastrophes, wars.

At that point it doesn't matter who do you like to sleep with and what you wear. If you are a man you are supposed to protect, i.e. willingly put your life in danger. It's called male disposability.

I fear that, by focusing so much on defining masculinity by the superficial aspects of it, we sweep under the rug the core issue of male disposability during emergency.

CzechoslovakianJesus · 2023-03-23T21:37:33+00:00

There's nothing inherently wrong with traditional masculinity and the male gender role. The problem is that men are trapped in their role while women have been freed from theirs. What sane man would bother shouldering all the responsibility for a modern "empowered" woman who offers him nothing?

Title	Does this sub believe that "traditional" masculinity and/or gender roles should be promoted/encouraged?
Author	Fan_Service_3703
Upvotes	65
Comments	68
Date	March 19, 2023 7:58 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/11vvtdi/does_this_sub_believe_that_traditional/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/does-this-sub-believe-that-traditional-masculinity.1187060 https://theredarchive.com/post/1187060

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