Help me understand why the hell I was banned from menslib? How is explaining the science behind being trans transphobic?

GltyUntlPrvnInncnt · 2022-06-17T15:09:53+00:00

Because Menslib is a feminist echo chamber masquerading as pro-men that censors "wrongthink" by banning people.

MenslibTA · 2022-06-17T15:26:24+00:00

You made the mistake of not agreeing with u/delta_baryon 's worldview.

They don't ban discussion of moderation and direct people to modmail so they can have a healthy discussion, it's so they can ignore and insult you.

I'd suggest posting your convo with them on r/menslibwatch.

boundarychimps · 2022-06-17T14:14:39+00:00

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”

It's not about Truth^TM , it's about not making the mascots of the in-group cry.

Flaktrack · 2022-06-17T14:59:03+00:00

How the actual fuck is arguing that trans people are 100% valid from a scientific, evidence based argument “transphobic”

In trans culture, you would be called either "truscum" or a "transmedicalist" depending on who you asked. You're promoting the idea that to be trans, you have to actually be trans, and for the idpol cultists, that's heresy.

Try this one out and see how fast you can get banned from other communities:
"If gender roles don't matter or exist, why be trans?"

Tedfordshire · 2022-06-17T14:18:02+00:00

This is probably a case of typical power-tripping mods. They realised they were wrong but doubled down to protect their fragile ego.

politicsthrowaway230 · 2022-06-17T14:17:13+00:00

This is where social constructivism falls, it borders on scientific denialism to completely ignore biological factors. Their importance may often be exaggerated but we cannot really say they don't exist. Full gender essentialism, where we disregard sociological factors and claim that there is a fixed biologically-coded "natural order of things" that can't change, is also daft, I think the "right answer" is somewhere in the middle.

I get very nervous when people want to entirely disregard the neurology behind gender. I don't think there should be such a thing as "forbidden science", and a concrete framework behind gender, that incorporates both neurological and sociological factors is exactly what we need to win over the naysayers who seem sceptical of an entirely internal theory of gender.

WesterosiAssassin · 2022-06-17T16:51:02+00:00

They don't seem to have a problem with with gender essentialism when someone posts about how testosterone makes men dumb and horny.

xhouliganx · 2022-06-17T13:35:59+00:00

The “follow the science” crowd doesn’t actually care about science.

BoredOfReposts · 2022-06-17T13:59:07+00:00

Ive heard moderators of menslib are mostly feminist women not actually male rights advocates. Assuming thats true, they don’t really represent the community and have a separate agenda. Obviously whatever you said is not part of that echo chamber.

I unsubscribed as soon as I learned about the moderators. Mensrights is a better sub imo, with moderators who are at least not disingenuous like menslib.

vaaralinen · 2022-06-17T14:10:28+00:00

Well if they accept that gender is biological instead of social, they wouldn't be able to promote the ideas that "trans men are uwu cute tender flowery yaoi princes (unlike these horrible horrible cis men) with female socialization who need feminism" and "trans women must cure their male socialization" (terfs or "not" terfs both have this same rhetoric, some just try to veil it). As for "transphobic" part, it's probably the same projection as their claims that non-feminists are racist/classist/homophobic (and of course sexist too).

Simply put: feminists have to be transphobic to protect their movement, but they can't admit it because they don't want to lose the support of gaslighted trans people, so I guess it's easier for them to claim everyone else is transphobic.

YesAmAThrowaway · 2022-06-17T17:17:48+00:00

You have encountered what are called "tucutes". What you are arguing is what little scientific base we have for being trans, which in itself should be getting a lot more research funding to clear up the detailed questions.

What I would regard your views as is "truscum". It heavily intersects with transmedicalism and views the state of being trans as an innate circumstance, aiming to (when possible) take steps to transition to the de facto gender identity in both social environments and physical appearance. If you want to follow the science, this is the way.

Going off the scientific basis, it also wouldn't be too difficult to theorise why non-binary people are a thing.

Here is where tucutes come in. They have basically taken over most of the movement by now, so don't expect to be heard when you refer to the science that lends credibility to trans people. Have you ever seen somebody seriously claiming their gender identity is an animal, an interest of theirs, an inanimate object or just not tied to anything at all? Chances are you stumbled across a person believing into some tucute talking points, like:

"xeno-/neopronouns make it easier for neurodivergent people to understand gender" (like, generalising everybody here, rude, also why make it more complicated when it's difficult to understand)
"you can remember names, so you can remember individual pronouns" (what happened to neurodivergent people here, hm?)
"gender is a social construct/gender doesn't exist" (in which case: why would I need to respect your pronouns then? Couldn't I just misgender you, tell you to suck it up because it's just socially constructed? Our gender norms are constructs. Gender, or the lack thereof, is an immutable characteristic for which there is evidence)
"you're just transphobic" (fuck off)
"omg dirty truscum/transmedicalist"
"xeno-/neopronouns and genders help expressing the non-binary identity better" (great, I could actually get behind that if any of the lingo around it could be used in spoken and written conversation in a manner that correctly indicates the person's gender identity not being part of the gender binary, like, say, they/them. Oh right, we already have that! Your personal me me me all is about me pronoun does not convey any information and people are better off simply being told to use your name instead)
"she/they; he/they make sense because somebody might be ok with all pronouns" (they might not be fully a binary gender but not feel divorced enough from the idea to go full binary, is the only justification I can come up with. Otherwise the pronouns are meant to convey information. If they do not do that, they have no use and could just be dropped in exchanhe for a person's name)

And all that jazz. I recommend you check out r/truscum for more.

HoldorScalp · 2022-06-17T16:35:59+00:00

This is why I'm on mensright and I've quit menslib. Pretty sure mods of menslibs are cringelord and comes from the worst eccho chamber subs there is on reddit. They are inflexible, uneducated and anti-rational. With your post, you are the opposite of that, they don't like to see their mediocrity and how they could've been wrong after such a while.

ThatQueerWerewolf · 2022-06-17T19:04:02+00:00

As a trans person, thanks for trying. I wish people would focus more on the biological reality of our condition, instead of talking so much about identity that people just think we're playing fucking dress up.

MelvsBDA · 2022-06-17T14:40:27+00:00

I had a politician call me a bigot and block me on Twitter for asking how they slept at night after putting human rights to the vote in a referendum.

I merely pointed out that as the majority ruling party they could just pass legislation.

Some people can’t see the wood for the trees.

Maivens · 2022-06-17T14:08:02+00:00

It' s not only that sub, it most of the subs that have anything to do with the topic that are like that. And not even that topic alone, extreme distrust and unacceptance had been creeping in into the public relationships for a long time, dividing people.

When you give people the tools to remove someone just because, and you add the current prevailing western mentality to it, the result become like this, anything at any point is a reason for exclusion or hate or whatever.

I know that your comment is not transphobic, and that you didn't have malicios intent, you wanna know how I know that? Because I don't gain anything by excluding or disbelieving you, I don't need to adhere to anyones opinion, I get no "social credit" for hating the right demographic, and I don't project anything I hold against the world at you. All of that is needed before anyone even reads your argument, to conclude after if they agree or disagree with you.

madonnamanpower · 2022-06-17T15:14:03+00:00

I don't understand how brain structure leads to gender essentialism. The only thing that the brain structure effects is how much more we process certain things.

It doesn't effect who should do what in society.

heimdahl81 · 2022-06-17T16:12:36+00:00

Unfortunately the gender of a brain isn't as clear as that. For a while we thought it was, but upon developing a larger sample set, it became clear that the variation of brain structure was much wider than expected and gender could not be determined reliably through brain scans.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x

ShelSilverstain · 2022-06-17T16:55:06+00:00

For me, the science is interesting, but it's not why I support trans rights. For me, as a half-immigrant American, I support all queer rights because there's nothing more quintessentially American than choosing your own name, gender, and path you wish to follow in life. I used to think that made me more like Republicans because of how much I saw them speak about "individual rights." Turns out they were just talking about dumping toxic waste on private land. Lol

puck-penn · 2022-06-17T15:27:51+00:00

I blame most things along that line as coming from genderqueer theories. Always seemed anti trans, anti gay, and anti cis. Pulls from blank slate ideas of what makes a person. They think it’s all nurture and no nature. I’m a binary trans guy, myself

_name_of_the_user_ · 2022-06-17T21:30:40+00:00

Getting banned from menslib is a right of passage. It's how you know you're starting down a good path of understanding men's issues

BloomingBrains · 2022-06-17T22:15:40+00:00

Yet another example of how the idpol left is validating conservative talking points, and how if the woke narrative ever completely takes over we will slip back into a dark age of bigotry.

What you're trying to point out completely blows the Ben Shapiro style "trans women are really men because they have XY chromosomes" out of the water. Yes, they do have XY chromosomes, but what you're pointing out--that there are measurable brain/hormonal differences--explains why the person interprets themselves as female. So they are not completely biologically male or completely biologically female. They are mentally female and only physically male. Insisting at that point on identifying the person by their physicality rather than their mentality seems absurd.

But by trying to silence this, they are actually validating the Ben Shapiro stance. If there is no difference mentally or physically, then he is correct. But I didn't say that, menslib did.

quokka29 · 2022-06-17T15:44:43+00:00

I got banned from there as well. When I politely asked why I was banned I received a torrent of abuse, the mod didn’t even allow me to respond to the allegations, I was then banned. Extremely pathetic.

Talik1978 · 2022-06-17T16:24:59+00:00

It's actually an argument that supports that trans individuals don't just think they are a different gender than assigned at birth, but that they are, from a brain structure perspective, quite literally a man trapped in a woman's body (or vice versa). Forrest Valkai on YouTube has an excellent video debunking a lot of transphobia that argues biology (he's an evolutionary biologist, so his opinion on biology is rather more informed than the layperson).

Here's the link: https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg

It's fine to say there's a genetic component to trans identification. There is. Absent some pretty thorough brain scans, though, most people aren't going to be informed on theirs. That said, even absent that knowledge, trans individuals are rather better than average at aligning themselves to that, even when the initial assignment is wrong.

That said, this is an area a lot of transphobes play in, and for the uninformed, it can be hard to tell the difference. And gender is a social construct, the same that time is. We can measure time, define it, and even use it in nearly all scientific experiments. It exists, but it is exists as an idea. We can describe these things. Both are true.

wrekd · 2022-06-17T17:41:28+00:00

Reddit bans wrongthink all over the place. This platform is absolutely intolerable at this point in time. They have bots waiting for you to screw up in ANY sub in order to ban you.

I got banned from damn StarTrek yesterday for diminishing racism in private to one of the mods for calling an article about racism and sexism related to Star Trek Discovery a nothingburger. The show is currently in Season 5 and this was about S1:E1...years go. They got a couple crazy tweets and an email like 4 years ago and that was evidence of rabid racism and sexism everywhere and worthy of a recent news article about it today. My argument was every public figure gets loaded with negative comments simply for being in the public eye. You're supposed to dismiss that crazy shit. Sticks and stones. This is all part of an outrage industry that you cannot question (kafkatrap) or else you to will become part of the problem and banned.

Fuck those people. You don't need them.

matrixislife · 2022-06-17T18:10:39+00:00

Providing sources to back up your arguments was crossing the line.
They don't want people who can think or can research their topics, they want people who will believe what they are told. It doesn't matter that you were supporting their arguments this time, next time you might not be, best to remove you now.

UnHope20 · 2022-06-17T19:39:46+00:00

That place is an anti-science hellhole who's ideas are literally deadly for men.

This is a great explanation of these people believe.

EditRedditGeddit · 2022-06-17T15:24:19+00:00

It might be better to ask this in r/asktransgender than here, but ultimately I don’t disagree with most of your claims. That said, I don’t really agree with how you’re framing the science or how you’re articulating trans validity.

With the science, it’s less black and white than I believe you’ve presented it as here. Trans people do have neurological structures in the hypothalamus that align with our identified sex, but it’s still not exactly clear what this does or what part of gender identity this is associated with.

Second, I don’t really like the perspective of “100% valid from a scientific perspective”. We’re valid because we exist, and we don’t need science to validate us. There’s a difference between investigating the causes of transness through science and using science to ask the question “do trans people really exist?” We tend to investigate traits like being tall or being gay with the understanding that gay and tall people exist as they are, but with trans people there’s a position of skepticism.

And the third thing I wanted to say is this science isn’t incongruent with the idea that gender is also socially constructed. I agree that people can be kinda fundamentalist about the “gender is a social construct” thing, but all the science tells us is that people have an innate sense of neurological sex — or rather, an innate set of neurologically sexed traits. This doesn’t mean that specifically identifying as a man or a woman is hardwired into us. That arguably might come from society, and the way we use language and culture to assign additional significance to sex and/or gender.

Throwawayingaccount · 2022-06-17T15:19:02+00:00

Humans are just a bag of proteins, water and hormones in a very specific arangement.

It is foolish to think we are something else, and we must recognize that being made of such physical elements, leaves us susceptible to changes, perhaps even fundamental ones by adding chemicals/hormones/proteins at specific times/places.

SgllsTaklnDux · 2022-06-17T19:26:09+00:00

They're banhappy for anything conceivably out of line with their strict thinking, which they don't tell you.

Additionally, there's a vested interest in not understanding it biologically, because then, it can be eugenic'd away.

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