A feminist asks for your help.

uberotto · 2009-12-16T20:09:44+00:00

I can address one of these questions: "Are you male and the primary carer for your children? Is the world set up in a way which makes this easy? If not, why not?"

Yes, I am a male and the primary carer for my three year old daughter. While I wouldn't say it was hard, there have been a few problems.

I was stopped in a restaurant once by a waitress while trying to take my daughter to the bathroom. She felt it wasn't appropriate for me (a male) to be taking a little girl (my daughter) into the bathroom without some sort of supervision.
I've had a problem at work when it was suggested that I wasn't being honest about all those days I took off from work to care of my daughter when she was sick. Some people felt that staying home to take care of sick kids is something a mother would be doing, not the father.
I had a run-in with several mothers at the local park when I found out that some of them had asked their children not to play with my daughter, since they were convinced the only reason I was bringing my daughter to the park was to hit on the the other kids mothers. So now when I take my daughter to the park, I limit my interaction with the other parents.
There are a number of support groups for mothers that don't allow single fathers to join.
There are toy lines such as Mommy&Me which seem to go out of there way to strengthen the gender stereotypes.
There was a billboard, I believe in Virginia a year or two ago which showed a picture of a grown man holding the hand of a little girl with the message "If this doesn't feel right to you, call the police". I've noticed that on occasion I have received "studied" looks from some people when walking hand in hand with my daughter. This might also have something to do with the fact I'm in my mid 40's so I'm a little older than the average father of a three year old.

So again, it's not difficult but there is definitely room for some improvement

DougDante · 2009-12-16T22:29:52+00:00

" * What percentage of men fight for custody rights in US / UK? How many of them win? vs. mothers?"

The presumption is that a father or mother who doesn't "fight for custody" doesn't want it. For fathers in particular, this is simply not true. For example, in Michigan, for a disputed custody situation, early in the process a court appointed custody evaluator with a financial conflict of interest will make a "recommendation". If dad agrees to this, he doesn't fight for custody. Customarily, this recommendation includes joint legal custody in most cases. Fight the recommendation, and you lose legal custody and can't take your children to the doctors and have all sorts of hassles in these regards.

Here's a survey of 51 parents and how they viewed the legal process in their cases.

As for recommendations made, you should know that in Michigan, the color of your skin and the county in which you live are statistically the most significant factors (other than gender) effecting those recommendations, from my report here. African American fathers are only 3/5ths as likely as White non-Hispanic fathers to receive a recommendation for joint or sole custody.

"#

How often do fathers who pay custody get to see their children? How many never get to see them?"

There is some information on that here

"# Anyone got the data on the amount of advertising on prostate cancer vs. breast cancer, vs. the impact on the population?

Breast Cancer is #1

lunivore · 2009-12-17T01:26:38+00:00

[permanently deleted]

uberotto · 2009-12-16T19:39:27+00:00

So here's the thing, equal pay for women vs. equal parenting rights for men are actually just two sides of the same problem. I've seen a few studies recently that have shown that women without children earn, on average, the same pay as men. The really interesting part of these studies is when they compare the pay for women without children to single fathers, the women tend to make more money for doing the same job.

None of these studies went so far as to say there is no gender pay gap, they just showed that when you compare apples to apples (women without children vs. men without children) the pay gap was small. If I remember correctly, one study showed the pay gap to be less than 2% for this group. The gap really doesn't start to grow to the widely reported numbers until children are added to the equation. Women with children (whether married or single) do make significantly less than men with children (again, whether married or single) while working at the same job. This, I believe has more to do with the stereotypical gender roles associated with child care. Women are expected by society to take the more active role in raising the children, therefore are seen to be less valuable as an employee, and men are expected to be the financial providers of children, therefore are given less rights in family courts.

It's the gender stereotypes that are the problem and you can't fix one without fixing the other. The problem is that most groups are only concerned with fixing the side that affects them the most and never bother to address, or exhibit very little interest in the other side. The only way to really fix either problem is to start to address these issues as they really are, different symptoms of the same problem. As a single father having to deal with these issues every day (I have primary custody of my daughter and that often causes "confusion" at my place of employment), it makes me happy to see someone who is a self professed feminist also wanting to address both of these issues together.

AnnArchist · 2009-12-16T17:40:30+00:00

The only way to have pay statistically equalize is to have statistically equally split custody.

Thats why I never buy the myth about the female glass ceiling or the female pay gap. Those numbers never account for the difference in experience, education, job titles and a myriad of other factors.

If women were cheaper to employ, they would be the only ones employed.

lunivore · 2009-12-16T20:13:48+00:00

The MRA folks have, at least speaking for myself, zero issue with the Equity Feminist point of view. Your post suggests that you are an Equity Feminist.

The MRAs, in general, have big issues, if not open hostilities, with the Gender Feminists. The Gender Feminists push made up statistics to get laws enacted favoring women to the detriment of men, want to dominate everything (like excluding Mens Clubs at college), and generally put down men and unreasonably promote womens interests ahead of mens. A them against us, zero sum, contest.

Citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_and_gender_feminism

JMHO.

2009-12-17T17:08:36+00:00

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here yet is the female sentencing discount. Women, in general, get much lighter sentences for committing the same crimes as men.

A couple of examples: it seems like a week doesn't go by that I don't read about some female teachers having sex with their male (underage) students. These teachers seem to rarely get anything more than a slap on the wrist. Try reversing the genders in those stories and ask yourself if a male teacher would get away with such a light punishment.

Mary Winkler was only sentenced to 210 days in jail for shooting her husband in the back with a shotgun while he slept, leaving him to bleed to death while she fled with their three kids to a different state. Not only is she a free woman, she also has custody of her kids. Ask yourself if a male would have a prayer of serving such a short sentence and getting custody of his kids again...

drewlb · 2009-12-16T18:53:32+00:00

I'll have to come back with the evidence, as I am mobile at the moment and can't do all the looking up... But what you are talking about wanting is already here. When the genders are normalized for job role, education, and ~20 other factors, there is no pay gap. In fact, the data shows that a woman with the same education, performance, experience etc. in the same job as a man will tend to be paid slightly more. The gap only exists because many women tend to choose less hazardous jobs, or jobs that have other non-monetary benefits. (Think pay school teacher w/ summer vacation, vs miners with high mortality rates and how the genders differ in entering these fields)

Jawsofperspective · 2009-12-16T17:51:18+00:00

I think the honest goal of gender equality should be finding that impossible equal-but-different status that biology imposes on us.

Women and men are always going to have different worldviews and attributes; our brains and bodies are just built differently. The fact that the social roles we kind of fell into during history became restrictive, then became an argument to justify discrimination is something we have to move past. But we're never moving past what we are.

And we're not going to get anywhere by trying to turn girls into boys and boys into girls. There are virtues unique to each gender that we as a civilization can't afford to lose.

cyber_rigger · 2009-12-17T14:49:53+00:00

I am sick to to death of television passing off a man getting hit in the groin as any form of entertainment.

Better yet, let's show more women getting private injuries, then plug in the canned laughter.

TrollTrawler · 2009-12-16T17:45:51+00:00

Foremost, thanks for being logical. What stats were you interested in? The percentage of workplaces that honestly allow for maternity leave for men (because the number that say they do and really don't is probably pretty high, as getting slammed by the boys' club happens to us, too)? The number of men who get financially ruined by a child they get to see maybe 2 days a week/month (then have to fight for custody from a studio apartment)? The guys on this subreddit would probably shock you with the saved links they have. I'm mostly a male lurker, here. Therefore, I'm not the one to offer said numbers. I bet if you wrote down a laundry list of questions that would help you better understand our plight, these guys would jump on it.

fallentree · 2009-12-17T08:13:50+00:00

Which countries have laws offering both parents time off after childbirth? How is that time split?

I know wikipedia has a chart that breaks down mat/paternity leave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternity_leave

I can't vouch for their correctness of course. Germany and Sweden are the only ones with equal time if I'm not mistaken.

Anyone got the data on the amount of advertising on prostate cancer vs. breast cancer, vs. the impact on the population?

I don't think this is a very strong point to argue about.

Which are the laws you most want to see changed?

Child support laws. Not only are they ridiculously anti-male, but they are an admission that females are incapable of being and enforcing responsibility.

TheBananaKing · 2009-12-17T13:48:39+00:00

Totally awesome thread. I have little in the way of hard data to contribute, but I do want to appluad your approach and attitude.

My hobbyhorse issue is circumcision, as has been mentioned. Apart from the fact that it happens so much (thankfully not nearly so much here in Australia as in the US), look at the underlying attitudes towards it. In the case of a bris, people make a fucking party out of the occasion complete with drinks and nibblies. Imagine that, if you will, with a girl as the victim. Even outside of that context, it's generally considered hilariously funny. Or look at the porn industry (strangely only degrading to women), where you'll never see an intact male. Mention labioplasty, and people are horrified that consenting adults feel the need to undergo surgery to meet some unnatural Barbie aesthetic - but hey, flensing boys down to some kind of epicene immobile pink flesh dildo - ew, how could you not?

Male genitals are considered disgusting at the best of times, but for them to be natural and wrinkly is beyond the pale. Imagine a world where that was the overwhelmingly popular opinion of the vulva, where a preference for intact genitalia was considered a fetish ferchrissake. Imagine a world where the vast majority strongly felt it was the parents right to choose.

/rant

aaaanyways, kudos. I wish more people would adopt the term egalitarian instead, because taking sides is the root cause of the problem (and because 'militant egalitarian' sounds so fucking cool) but anyone who hates zero-sum games is a friend of mine.

Be well :)

[edit for typos]

KeyboardHero · 2009-12-16T16:56:53+00:00

I don't have much to contribute (I usually lurk on this subreddit as well), but thank you for approaching this topic from a rational perspective.

sun_wyvern · 2009-12-17T03:30:13+00:00

I have no links or citations to deliver you and this is likely not relevant enough for you, but I'm a male Social Work major and a statistic we needed to know for our class is that there are <24% of males in the profession. Perhaps that can give you some sort of lead or useful fact? It's common knowledge that nurses are primarily female, not necessarily other civil service professions.

tomek77 · 2009-12-16T17:05:28+00:00

Hi and thanks for your understanding. Not sure what you are looking for, your questions were a little vague..

greatlakes · 2009-12-17T03:37:52+00:00

Not much to add myself as I am female - but just wanted to say thank you for posting this. Your viewpoints are very similar to my own and it's refreshing to see a feminist who feels similarly. Looking forward to reading replies.

lunivore · 2009-12-16T22:22:30+00:00

... instead of fighting for slices of pie, equality for all could actually lead to a bigger pie.

I'm a lurker here, so I don't have much to share. That's a really good quote, though.

You've missed domestic/family violence (or whatever it's called now) in your post (EDIT: no you haven't). Some of the stories at http://www.oneinthree.com.au/ are quite shocking.

dcousineau · 2009-12-16T17:35:41+00:00

An a tangent you could talk to the girls at phpwomen for tips, suggestions, and slides on the gender imbalance in IT. Lorna Jane will probably be your primary point of contact.

As others have said your exact questions are a bit vague, but overall your rant I agree with (whoda thunk, I lurk /r/MensRigts :P). For me, the big thing is I want public acknowledgment of my value, worth, and hard work in society. Too often though domestic rights laws, public perception, and cultural inertia I feel expendable and worth only as much as I produced yesterday, and that's a very lonely feeling.

If you're going to form a rant around men's rights (especially to those uninitiated to the concept of "men's rights"), I think the best place to start is to focus on the commoditization of men in our (and most every other) culture, and generally the lack of a support structure for men, be it organizations like the Mens clubs in the UK that everyone is having a fuss about, to domestic violence shelters that even take men in the first place, and even just being able to talk with other people without violating the cultural norm that men are quiet, stoic, and don't complain or express feelings.

But then again that's just me and I don't speak for the rest of the men here.

zozman · 2009-12-17T01:53:47+00:00

A lot of your questions are related to childcare/access etc. Obviously this is an important gender issue, but there are a sizeable chunk of people in relationship (or not) who haven't got or don't want children. Personally, (and selfishly) I'd like to see equal rights for all, regardless of gender or parental status (with a bit of common sense thrown in).

On another personal note, there's a subtle glass ceiling where I work. There's a government indicator to record the number of females, disabled people and "minority" groups (not sure what you call this elsewhere, BME in "our" terminology) in senior positions. There's real pressure to improve the figures, so positive discrimination is actively encouraged.

KevMike · 2009-12-17T13:12:16+00:00

You're an unusual treat for /mensrights, and I appriciate your calm collectiveness. I hope your presentation knocks them dead.

lunivore · 2009-12-16T19:44:10+00:00

I don't really agree with you, and this is a fundamental point that applies to 99% of feminists I've ever met.

The problem is that your definition of equality and rights is not stringent enough. Many feminists lobby for various rights that simply should not exist for anyone, as they amount to privileges from government. Also, their concept of equality is in the results, not the rules of the game. It is this that qualifies many feminists as Marxist in my eyes, and is why I oppose their advocacy on many issues.

I also find them downright hypocritical, with really odious double standards that directly contradict their claim to care about gender equality. They are selective and misdiagnose their issues, they also lie about them and have very poor academic practice.

My interest in "men's rights" is almost entirely as a reaction to the injustice and lies that feminism creates. I do not see a compatible goal for us.

kloo2yoo · 2009-12-16T19:35:50+00:00

If you look at the FAQ you'll get a slightly-less-disorganized line of arguments.

OriginalStomper · 2009-12-17T16:15:43+00:00

No links to studies, but a few personal anecdotes from Texas, USA:

When I was in law school, I interviewed with some firms I had no interest in -- just for the practice. In one interview, I actually asked about "paternity leave" policies. Mind you, this was the mid-1980's. Response? "So long as you bill enough hours, you are master of your own schedule." Of course, the billable-hour goals required nearly 60 hours/week for 50 weeks out of the year. Even setting aside paternity leave, all the firms said this sort of thing about work schedules, and none of them meant it. A few of them, however, were offering maternity leave and flex-time for female attorneys.

I ended up working for a small firm run by a crusty old WWII vet who knew about equal rights for minorities and women -- but only in the same way he knew about Santa Claus. He considered them a pleasant fiction for the more gullible. I doubt he ever questioned his notions about appropriate gender roales. My wife and I, however, believed I should share child-care and household chores (we had two kids by the time I got my law license). For several years, the best days I could manage were the days on which the disappointment expressed by my boss and my wife were about equal.

My wife and I are still married after 20+ years, and the youngest is now in college, so I'll never have to deal with custody issues. Nevertheless, as a lawyer I am certainly aware of the presumption in favor of mothers.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right?

rsho · 2009-12-16T22:17:04+00:00

Compensated for a false rape accusation, how? When the next big lotto comes up the state will give the male victim a complimentary 90% chance of winning? It would be bittersweet but it might work.

cryptogirl · 2009-12-17T05:14:29+00:00

Another cool feminist :)

UPVOTE!

ristin · 2009-12-16T21:29:05+00:00

I consider myself a feminist, in that I'm interested in getting better equality for women, particularly in work, pay and promotion.

Women are currently advantaged and privileged in all of those areas. Women get a better deal in wages, leave, promotions, hiring, and also are less likely to be fired and are unlikely to be the target of a complaint (such as workplace harassment). In many countries there are laws supporting this preferential treatment of women in the workplace.

I also believe this ain't going to happen until men get better equality in the areas of family and domestic rights and healthcare, hence my lurking on your subreddit.

True gender equality will only come when people are valued and regarded as individuals, rather than according to their gender stereotype as either superiour/smarter/self-controlled/maternal females or inferiour/stupid/rapist/pedophile males.

I'm so sorry that some people don't see that it's the same damn thing; that it's not a war; that giving men better rights could actually help women get what we want, too.

Thank you.

Have you encountered resistance, from either men or women, as a result of seeking a better quality of life?

Constantly. Even suggesting that men's health issues be considered leads to accusations (from women) of sexism and bigotry and misandry. It is normal for anti-male sexism to be both vocal and accepted. Any other area where begging for fair or even humane treatment of men is considered 'sexist'.

Have you encountered your own forms of glass ceilings, either in the workplace or at home, and what happened?

Of course. Only women can be promoted to management level or leadership level positions. While it's nice that old men get to keep these jobs, it means up-and-coming men have a glass ceiling they can never break.

JohnnK · 2009-12-16T17:00:22+00:00

Hello. Nice to see a friendly and level headed feminist for a change.

mitravelus · 2009-12-16T21:01:41+00:00

There was a post a while back from a redditor that had a tone of statistics on depression and suicide rates among men and women. If I can find it I'll post it here.

dora_explorer · 2009-12-16T20:54:37+00:00

what's the difference between "getting equality" and "getting BETTER equality"?

if equality is a driving force in your life, maybe you should start with understanding how to use it in a sentence.

2009-12-16T21:59:22+00:00

shad up!

Title	A feminist asks for your help.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	137
Comments	224
Date	December 16, 2009 4:51 PM UTC (16 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/afdou/a_feminist_asks_for_your_help/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-feminist-asks-for-your-help.1051540 https://theredarchive.com/post/1051540

Comments

How often do fathers who pay custody get to see their children? How many never get to see them?"