Everything you see

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You ever wonder what the ancestors of humans did differently from our closest primate relatives (bonobos and chimpanzees)?

I mean, first, we can take a look at what they do differently from each other.

Bonobos are a quasi-matriarchy with a lopsided harem reproductive model. About 60% of the offspring in any group are sired by the single most dominant male, with the rest split up between the rest of the most dominant 5 to 20%. Males derive their status almost entirely from their mothers. Father investment in offspring is nil. Male/male cooperation barely exists at all, and what little there is, is focussed on out-of-group matters (inter-group conflict, protection from predators, etc). This is the case even though all the males in the group are kin--it is females who leave the group at or near maturity.

Sexually immature (infertile) females display partial sexual swellings at all times, and offer sex to adult males in appeasement during conflicts over food, or to buy protection from aggressive resident females. The more dominant a female is, the less sex she has. This suggests that younger or less dominant females aren't having all that sex because they want to, but because they have to.

Bonobos in the wild number between 10 and 20 thousand, and they're in decline despite being heavily protected. Were the Congo River to dry up, or chimpanzees to learn to swim, I doubt they'd last a year.

They exhibit extremely limited tool use in the wild (hitting bones with a rock to get at the marrow, or digging with a stick), despite demonstrating some capability in captivity to shape tools or use them in combination to make them better for purpose.

Chimpanzees are a full-on egalitarian harem patriarchy. The vast majority of the offspring in a group will be fairly evenly split between the top 20% of males. Males spend lots of time bonding with each other--more time than they spend fighting, in fact--and are known to patch things up quickly after in-group conflicts with sincere gestures of reconciliation.

Coalitions of a handful of males have been observed taking out a tyrannical "leader" that everyone despises or dealing with a problem individual, and larger groups of males cooperate readily on tasks like hunting, border patrol, and inter-group warfare. It is believed the swift and sincere post-conflict reconciliation gestures between males exist to maintain this level of cooperativeness.

Consortships have been observed between subordinate males and females--that is, a "beta" male will take a shine to a particular female, share his food with her, help her take care of her kids, provide companionship and grooming, etc. To keep him coming back, she rewards him with sex, but rarely at peak estrus when the alpha will be mate-guarding. Still, every once in a while a female can create a diversion and sneak off to do the nasty with the nice guy. But, like the bonobo, there is little or no investment by biological fathers in their offspring or their mothers.

Chimpanzees in the wild number between 170 and 300 thousand. They have compound tools and extremely sophisticated "tool sets" in the wild--retrieving honey from a hive requires 5 separate tools modified from raw materials, used in a specific order. Their closer, more cooperative social structure facilitates passing knowledge from one individual to another, even though they arguably exhibit more in-group conflict than bonobos.

And now us. How did we get here? A researcher from the U of Tennessee demonstrated one possibility using mathematical modelling. His hypothesis? Those consortships that occasionally happen among chimpanzees? They became the norm. Over time, females developed cryptic ovulation to conceal their fertility and make mate-guarding by "alphas" impossible. They developed permanent breasts, signalling infertility (a state of pregnancy or lactation), reducing male/male conflicts that tend to occur most when females are in estrus. They chose the material investment of good fathers over the genetic payload of the dominant males.

Human males don't behave like any other males. Despite some tendencies towards polygyny, they are egalitarian maters--even in societies where polygamy is permitted, most marriages are monogamous. This is vastly different from the monogamy practiced by wolves, new world monkeys and other monogamous species. In these species, mating rights belong to one male and one or two females, and no one else in the group, male or female, gets a shot at the brass ring.

Unlike chimpanzees or bonobos, our males not only tolerate each other even when they are not kin, they are capable of cooperating with each other even when they are not kin.

And what does every human society that has thrived require males to do? If and when you mate, you take responsibility for protecting and provisioning your offspring and their mother(s).

Are there matriarchies? Yes. They're generally poor, eking out a living on territory no one else wants, produce nothing, and using borrowed--not discovered--technology.

Like the captive bonobo who is allowed to observe a human burying food and then offered an array of prefabricated tools, they can pick a suitable one and figure out how to use it. Like the chimpanzee, there is no pressure on the male to do more than chase away other males in order to get his shot at furthering his genetic legacy, because our general conception of fatherhood carries no status and is not rewarded. The children and most of the property, by right, belong to the mother and are handed down to the daughter--let the women take care of them. Why bother investing in something that isn't yours?

So yes, that sign you take issue with? While you may still believe it's a diss on women, there's more truth to it than you know. We owe everything to our unique reproductive model--a model that has harnessed the excess productivity of the majority of men that would otherwise be wasted had fatherhood not become the cultural norm of every human society that ever bridged the gap between "society" and "civilization".

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I put a lot of work into this comment so I would appreciate if you read it in it's entirety and made an attempt to understand my point. If you only read one sentence in this comment, let it be this next one:

Refusing to read and attempt to understand my perspective after engaging me in debate would be biased and ignorant, and is the exact mindset that created the divide in this country.

Don't fall into the mindset of running away from controversy. Just have the decency to try. Yes, it is really long, but when has anyone every been persuaded by one paragraph?

You are correct that some women do work in construction. In stupidly small numbers however, and only more recently.

I wouldn't call it "stupidly small", but I agree. In my opinion, that is a direct result of the country being founded by men and equality only being written into law in 1920. No matter how you cut it, that's a 200 year headstart on establishing a position in the workforce, even if you refuse to accept that the progress in actually creating substantive equality after writing the law takes decades if not centuries to complete.

As to your numbers, I have a source here that disagrees. "The National Architectural Accrediting Board reported in 2009 that 41% of architecture graduates were women". I didn't see your source on those "stupidly small numbers" but that 41% of graduates is from 2009, i'd wager it's continued to rise over the last 10 years.

Not convinced because that's about graduates and not working architects? Here's one from the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards. "While women remain underrepresented among practitioners, they now account for 36 percent of newly licensed architects, compared to 34 percent in 2015."

So, lets reevaluate the statement.

A poster, presumably posted in 2019 in a large city, states that everything you see was built by men supporting their families. I don't know how much you know about buildings, but a lot of them are old as all fuck. Not all of them, but a whole boatload of them. I can't identify the city in the photograph, but i'm going to use Manhattan skyscrapers as an example. Everyone knows the classic picture of the workers sitting on the beam while constructing the Rockefeller in the 1930's.

A brief glance at the wikipedia page for early architecture shows that there was tremendous progress made in designing and constructing skyscrapers in the 1800's and early 1900's. In fact, the period of 1900-1920 is labeled as the "first great age" in architecture, so I think it's fair to say that the industry had been deeply established before women were given the right to vote. By 1920, just as women received the right to vote and took the first real step towards developing an equal country, only 24% of women were in the workforce. You might say "well that's not so bad" but you haven't heard the real juice yet. What jobs were the women doing? All of the jobs that we now use as symbols of the our ancient sexist ways. Hey dollface, take a look at this quote from an Article called Women's Employment, 1865-1920. "Cities dominated by heavy industry or in the newly settled West had few non-domestic jobs for women." So the roots of this industry were planted by men, women were not allowed to participate on any significant level, and women have been slowly pushing their way into that industry for 100 years.

So, if we look at this trend of females in the workforce increasing consistently and in increasingly more impactful roles, then we can see that despite being given the right to vote in 1920, they did not receive true equality until recently, if they have truly received it yet at all. That debate is for another time, but the point is this:

The poster says everything was created by men, and it literally cannot be debated that this is factually false. If even a single woman contributed, then the statement is false. The question is why that matters. It has taken 100 years of blood sweat and tears just to get to a point where we can debate whether men and women are equal. And still, the debate is not conclusive. There are valid arguments on both sides, which means there is still progress to be made. When you say everything was build by men, you ignore the last 100 years of progress, diminish the entire history women's of suffrage, and decry any future progress they might make. It's sexist, plain and simple.

[+]gold_tie1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

What a waste of effort. You should have just pointed out that architecture is not manual labor and should not be included. None of your points apply to construction, which is the original focus of this post: to recognize the value of manual labor, which has historically been supplied almost entirely by one gender. Women have moved into mental positions en masse, for which they should be applauded, but they have not moved into physical ones. And that is not some trend that is just slowly developing, it has plateaued. It is unattractive work. And yet there are still plenty of men out there willing to do it, often in an effort to improve others' lives (I would say the characterization of working for their families is not fair to apply universally but is obviously often true).

There have been generations of hard working men (often romanticized as fathers or family men, but they are also valuable as individuals) responsible for the vast vast vast majority of construction. Hard work that could not have been accomplished as efficiently by their female peers. Not then, not today. Pointing out that these men are underappreciated is not a slight to women. Not even a little bit.

[–]crossfit_is_stupid 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

None of your points apply to construction, which is the original focus of this post: to recognize the value of manual labor, which has historically been supplied almost entirely by one gender.

Show me the words 'construction' or 'labor' in the original post. You cannot state that inference as if it were fact. You can only take the post at face value, which is:

Everything you see was built by men supporting their families.

If you want to be closed minded and limit the term 'built' to only construction, then it's still wrong. There are things which were built by women. If you open your mind and accept that you didn't write the sign and don't know which definition is being used, if it was ever intended to be limited to one definition, then you can see it obviously includes architecture and a plethora of other fields. That's why I included architecture in my initial comments.

Which is why I wrote that very long comment explaining how that statement diminished the continual effort made by women to join in that force which has throughout history been supplied by mostly one gender. Did you notice in my comment when I explained how before 1920 and for a long time after, women weren't allowed to supply that labor even if they wanted to? And then I described how that labor percentage of women has been increasing steadily for 100 years as well as the variety of jobs being held by women, including manual labor and other fields which are integral to building things?

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Hol up, one of us misunderstood something. I wanna recap real quick.

You said "If there was even a single man working on a building, then that sentence would still be technically correct."

Setting aside the notion of "technically correct," and setting aside the debate debate of whether specifying men implies the absence of women, my point in response to you was that your statement implies that nothing was built without the help of a man. Your argument is that as long as a man contributed, saying it was built by men is technically correct. This only holds true if men contributed to everything, so the followup question has to be:

Okay, well does that mean you agree that nothing has ever been built by only women.

To clarify, not "on the backs of men", we are talking about something being created, constructed, or invented only by a woman or team of women, whether it builds off of previous knowledge or not.

So, just to summarize, the statement "everything you see was built by men" can only be technically correct if nothing was every built by only women, and I am asking if you agree with that.

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But that's only because ALL women were held back by ALL men (read patriarchy), barred from public life and confined to the sandwich mills and palaces of domestic abuse.

/s

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And what’s funny too is these women actively chose this, they didn’t want to vote because they’d have to pay taxes, or work because being a housewife was easier. It’s actually men who started to push them into this movement.

Edit: this text is to say that women were never oppressed like feminists say they were back in the 20’s because women actively chose to not have the right to vote so they didn’t have to pay taxes or work because they’d rather stay home whilst the man is the breadwinner. It was essentially more traditional back then and this being that the women and men chose to fall into these categories. So, my argument is essentially saying, women can’t complain that they were oppressed because the majority of women back then actively chose to not want certain rights because of the responsibilities behind them

[–]problem_redditor 24 points25 points26 points 6 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

You are being downvoted but you are right. The narrative that "women were oppressed by not being allowed the vote" is a simplistic view of something that was a far more complicated issue at the time than it's usually made out to be. Citizenship used to be centered around the idea of rights and responsibilities: you could not receive the rights of a citizen without the responsibilities. The rights granted to citizens (such as the right to vote) were seen as rights that had to be paid for with reciprocal obligations to the state, such as the draft.

From the Supreme Court of the United States:

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/245/366/

Compelled military service is neither repugnant to a free government nor in conflict with the constitutional guaranties of individual liberty. Indeed, it may not be doubted that the very conception of a just government and its duty to the citizen includes the duty of the citizen to render military service in case of need, and the right of the government to compel it.

This is something that men were obligated to do and that women were not.

And, apart from the military draft, men also had other duties to the government at that time as well: posse comitatus, bucket brigades, all kinds of conscription that any male over the age of 15 could be subject to when a sheriff or fire marshall or other official deemed it necessary.

Essentially, at that time, men had an obligation to assist state and local governments, at risk to their lives, in protecting citizens and their property, as well as to enforce the federal government's will on foreign states. They could be called upon at any time to do so, and could be prosecuted and imprisoned or even executed if they refused.

Women did not have to do any of that. And still don't.

So one of the reasons that people opposed female suffrage was because they felt that giving people the vote who did not owe these obligations was a moral hazard. Women would have an equal say in making laws that only men could be made to enforce. Women could swing a vote in favor of a war that only men could be forced to fight.

And a huge amount of women at the time certainly were very much against getting the vote.

Here's a 1903 article from the Atlantic talking about women's opposition to suffrage:

https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/306616/

She is unwilling to say to her son, to her brother, or to her husband, "I have decreed this; you must see that my decree is enforced on the reluctant or the resisting." She does not wish that he should act on her judgment against his own in obedience to her will; still less that he shall, in obedience to her will, compel others to act in violation both of their judgment and of his. And yet this is just what suffrage always may and sometimes must involve. The question, Shall woman vote, if translated into actual and practical form, reads thus: Shall woman decide what are the rights of the citizen to be protected and what are the duties of the citizen to be enforced, and then are her son and her brother and her husband to go forth, armed, if need be, to enforce her decision? Is this where the functional line between the sexes is to be drawn? Are women to make the laws and men to enforce them? Are women to decree, and men to execute? Is woman never to act as a private, but only as a commander-in-chief? Is this right? Is it right that one sex shall alone enforce authority, but the other sex determine when and how it shall be exercised? Is this expedient? Will it promote peace, order, prosperity? Is it practicable? Will it in fact be done? Suppose that in New York city the women should vote for prohibition and the men should vote against it; is it to be expected that the men would arm themselves to enforce against their fellow men a law which they themselves condemned as neither wise nor just?

There were many, many female-led anti-suffrage societies. Here is a document by one such anti-suffrage society in Illinois detailing "Woman's Protest against Woman Suffrage".

We acknowledge no inferiority to men. We claim to have no less ability to perform the duties which God has imposed upon us than they have to perform those imposed upon them. We believe that God has wisely and well adapted each sex to the proper performance of the duties of each. We believe our trusts to be as important and sacred as any that exist on earth. We believe woman suffrage would relatively lessen the influence of the intelligent and true, and increase the influence of the ignorant and vicious. We feel that our present duties fill up the whole measure of our time and ability, and are such as none but ourselves can perform. Our appreciation of their importance requires us to protest against all efforts to infringe upon our rights by imposing upon us those obligations which cannot be separated from suffrage, but which, as we think cannot be performed by us without the sacrifice of the highest interests of our families and or society. It is our fathers, brothers, husbands, and sons who represent us at the ballot-box. Our fathers and our brothers love us; our husbands are our choice and one with us; our sons are what we make them. We are content that they represent us in the corn-field; on the battle-field, and at the ballot-box, and we them in the school room, at the fireside, and at the cradle, believing our representation even at the ballot-box to be thus more full and impartial than it would be were the views of the few who wish suffrage adopted, contrary to the judgment of the many. We do herefore respectfully protest against any legislation to establish “woman suffrage” in the State of Illinois.

A HUGE amount of women were actively protesting against getting the vote when suffragists were advocating for it, and this was part of the reason why women's suffrage took a while to happen. Still, in America, territories like Wyoming began giving women the right to vote starting in 1869, and more and more states began allowing female suffrage. By the time 1920 rolled around, 19 states allowed women to vote.

So women managed to get the vote with no reciprocal obligation. And yet feminists constantly PISS and MOAN about how oppressed women were because they didn't get the vote the same afternoon men did, even though when they did they got all the rights without any of the obligations.

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Actually, he's correct. According to Hansard, in the UK in the 16 years leading up to a 1910 parliamentary debate on women's suffrage, suffragettes managed to collect 193,000 signatures of women who wanted the vote.

Meanwhile, in the 18 MONTHS leading up to that debate, anti-suffragettes had managed to collect 300,000 signatures from women who objected to the franchise being imposed on them.

Just prior to this debate, the Sheffield Independent (a female suffrage friendly newspaper) sent pollsters to 23,000 households in the town to poll the female householders about women's suffrage. 14,000 of the women said they were against it, and in several cases chased the pollsters away with violence, believing they were suffragette sympathizers.

The suffragettes in the UK had to change tacks in order to convince ordinary women to "dirty their hands" with partisan politics in an era where full citizenship rights were granted only to those with citizenship responsibilities (and sometimes not even then).

In that historical context, the vote was actually viewed not just as a right, but also an obligation.

And up until the Representation of the People Act (the legislation that enacted women's suffrage), it was one men purchased via reciprocal obligation to the state in the form of taxes payable by MEN even on their wives' earned income and property held in her name alone. The mostly franchise non-eligible men who fought and died in WWI purchased through their service universal suffrage for the remaining 5 million or so men who still did not have the vote.

The slogan heard most frequently in the debate over this particular act of parliament was not "Votes for women." It was "If he's fit to fight, he's fit to vote."

The different tack the suffragettes took? Convincing women that men were brutish, irresponsible, selfish, combative, oppressive and corrupt. It would take, they claimed, nothing less than the moral superiority of women to "drain the swamp" men had made of the political system.

That blanket condemnation of men as "making a hash of the entire thing" was what turned the tide and got the majority of women on board with women's suffrage--to make clean what men had dirtied. (Good job, ladies.)

At the same time, were it not for men enduring the muck and filth and horror of trench warfare and proving that class distinctions do not matter regarding obligation to, or love for, one's country, the only women who'd have been granted the vote would have been those of the elite, propertied classes.

But yes. It was all about women being oppressed.

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Good read but i didnt notice that article giving any sources itself which kinda makes me question its validity. No actual studies or historical documwnts etc were linked or sourced but im also on mobile.

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It isn't a lie, there were a huge amount of women who rallied against votes for women at the time. In fact, women were the majority of opposition to woman suffrage.

Here's an article talking about it.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/05/did-most-women-want-the-vote/

What we do know is that women constituted the majority of the anti-suffrage movement, at least the rank and file. They made up more than two thirds of the subscribers to the anti-suffragist central office and five out of six subscribers at branch level. They made up, and collected, the half-million signatures against votes for women just before the first world war. This was grassroots stuff.

In the UK, so many women were opposed to woman suffrage that in the 16 years leading up to the 1910 parliamentary debate, suffragettes had only managed to collect signatures from 193,000 women in favour of female suffrage, whereas in the 18 months leading up to the debate anti-suffragettes managed to collect signatures from 300,000 women protesting against female suffrage.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1910/jul/11/parliamentary-franchise-women-bill

Still, for what it is worth, one finds that from 1890–1906 only 193,000 women signed Petitions to this House in favour of female suffrage, and that during the last eighteen months, a period in which a strong anti-suffrage association has been in existence, 300,000 women, some of them eminent women, have signed petitions against it, and to the effect that these proposals shall not be forced upon them. A rather interesting illustration was furnished by an inquiry which was instituted by "The Sheffield Independent," a newspaper which I think itself is sympathetic with these proposals. This inquiry was addressed to the women householders of Sheffield. Twenty-three thousand papers were sent out, and of the replies 9,000 were in favour of woman suffrage and 14,000 were against it. The representatives of this paper reported that in many cases their emissaries were chased with violence from the houses by the female inhabitants under the impression that they were collecting statistical matter as the emissaries of the suffragist party.

In America, the situation was the same.

Here's a 1903 article from the Atlantic talking about female anti-suffragettes:

https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/306616/

She is unwilling to say to her son, to her brother, or to her husband, "I have decreed this; you must see that my decree is enforced on the reluctant or the resisting." She does not wish that he should act on her judgment against his own in obedience to her will; still less that he shall, in obedience to her will, compel others to act in violation both of their judgment and of his. And yet this is just what suffrage always may and sometimes must involve. The question, Shall woman vote, if translated into actual and practical form, reads thus: Shall woman decide what are the rights of the citizen to be protected and what are the duties of the citizen to be enforced, and then are her son and her brother and her husband to go forth, armed, if need be, to enforce her decision? Is this where the functional line between the sexes is to be drawn? Are women to make the laws and men to enforce them? Are women to decree, and men to execute? Is woman never to act as a private, but only as a commander-in-chief? Is this right? Is it right that one sex shall alone enforce authority, but the other sex determine when and how it shall be exercised? Is this expedient? Will it promote peace, order, prosperity? Is it practicable? Will it in fact be done? Suppose that in New York city the women should vote for prohibition and the men should vote against it; is it to be expected that the men would arm themselves to enforce against their fellow men a law which they themselves condemned as neither wise nor just?

There were many, many female-led anti-suffrage societies. Here is a document by one such anti-suffrage society in Illinois detailing "Woman's Protest against Woman Suffrage".

We acknowledge no inferiority to men. We claim to have no less ability to perform the duties which God has imposed upon us than they have to perform those imposed upon them.

We believe that God has wisely and well adapted each sex to the proper performance of the duties of each.

We believe our trusts to be as important and sacred as any that exist on earth.

We believe woman suffrage would relatively lessen the influence of the intelligent and true, and increase the influence of the ignorant and vicious.

We feel that our present duties fill up the whole measure of our time and ability, and are such as none but ourselves can perform. Our appreciation of their importance requires us to protest against all efforts to infringe upon our rights by imposing upon us those obligations which cannot be separated from suffrage, but which, as we think cannot be performed by us without the sacrifice of the highest interests of our families and or society.

It is our fathers, brothers, husbands, and sons who represent us at the ballot-box. Our fathers and our brothers love us; our husbands are our choice and one with us; our sons are what we make them. We are content that they represent us in the corn-field; on the battle-field, and at the ballot-box, and we them in the school room, at the fireside, and at the cradle, believing our representation even at the ballot-box to be thus more full and impartial than it would be were the views of the few who wish suffrage adopted, contrary to the judgment of the many.

We do herefore respectfully protest against any legislation to establish “woman suffrage” in the State of Illinois.

So a big reason why votes for women took so long is not because men kept it from them. It's because a huge amount of women themselves opposed it.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]7point7 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

How about you provide a source since that’s not at all the standard education around the women’s suffrage movement. Women still had to pay taxes even when they couldn’t vote. In Britain they even had a movement about resisting taxes until the right to vote was afforded to them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_Tax_Resistance_League

Furthermore, women’s work efforts during ww1 is what lead to the movement being successful. It’s not that they didn’t want to work before, they weren’t allowed until millions of men went out onto the battlefront and they were needed in factories.

“The women's contribution to the war effort challenged the notion of women's physical and mental inferiority and made it more difficult to maintain that women were, both by constitution and temperament, unfit to vote. If women could work in munitions factories, it seemed both ungrateful and illogical to deny them a place in the polling booth. But the vote was much more than simply a reward for war work; the point was that women's participation in the war helped to dispel the fears that surrounded women's entry into the public arena.[4]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage

[–]WikiTextBot 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women's Tax Resistance League

The Women's Tax Resistance League (WTRL) was from 1909 to 1918 a direct action group associated with the Women's Freedom League that used tax resistance to protest against the disenfranchisement of women during the British women's suffrage movement.

Dora Montefiore proposed the formation of the league in 1897, and it was formally established on 22 October 1909. The league's activities peaked in the years before the First World War but were largely deflated in 1914 by the onset of that war, when the league membership passed a resolution to temporarily suspend their tax resistance.

Members saw themselves in a tradition of British tax resistance that included John Hampden.

[–]BecomesAngry -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Just so delusional holy shit. What is this subreddit.

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Millions of women protest for the equal rights and suffrage

/U/NotNickk_ it was all men's ideas anyway

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I know you're being sarcastic, but women aren't any more inherently "bad" than men are. That's something that drove me nuts about "The Red Pill". They constantly said the phrase "AWALT" which means "all women are like that". They are a bunch of damaged people.

That being said, if you think this forum is about being anti-women, you haven't read what people say here enough. Yes you get some people who bitterly speak out, but this forum is about making sure men get a fair shake in a world which has become tilted against them by default.

If anything, the point is that men need to take agency for our own rights and stop just letting them be taken away. Women quite successfully (and still do) got together to demand or protest various things across all venues, especially including media outlets. Men were entirely too passive about it.

As I see it, the major point of a forum like this is to fight against male complacency. That tendency to say that things are happening to someone else or maybe it's okay for everyone because it was true in this one instance or "maybe they're right that most guys are evil, I mean I'm not but maybe most guys are". We've been conditioned to see other men as evil and women as good, but where exactly are all these evil men?

Mainly what I'm trying to say is, don't come in here and insult the entire forum with a "clever" one-liner and boil down everything being said here to fit your version of a hateful narrative. It's objectively not true.

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This is a dogwhistle and it's very common on this sub. You make a pretty vacuous statement that touts male achievement whilst disparaging or discounting the role of women or men who don't fit the narrative (here specifically men supporting their families are the only ones who pass apparantly). If you oppose the idea that society was built solely by men supporting their families you're "against men's rights it's just supporting male achievement stop trolling". People see this and are duped into thinking that this sort of rhetoric is correct, and exposit that onto similair issues where people dismiss women's role in society. You're driven further towards extremes like MGTOW because these toxic ideas are reinforced by seemingly innocent/pure notions of just wanting to help men, meanwhile what this post says very clearly is that women have built nothing in society and it's all the work of men. Absurd, offensive, and obviously innacurate. The response? "it's not absurd men do build everything why are you hating on men. It doesn't say women didn't build it" I don't hate men. Lots of men did contribute to everything in that photo. As did women. Whether through physical participation, or supporting roles,they're there and they matter. Their exclusion here is obvious and purposeful, and it's the same in most of the posts here, designed to sow the seeds of hatred. Don't let this sub turn you into a toxic piece of shit or a useful idiot.

[–]HierEncore 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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Where are you pulling these numbers from? Males naturally have something like 50% more upper body strength, and their upper bound is much higher. Of course they're going to be the bulk of physical labour. But more than that goes into construction. There's planning; admin; drawing; modelling; funding. Basically all the bits that have to be put into place for anything to get done. People don't just show up on a plot of land and magic some building supplies into existence.There's also the implication that men built the whole of society around you and that's just not true is it. Women have contributed massively to the technological and cultural progress that get us where we are today. Even if you ignore that, these men who've done "all the work" were raised educated and supported in part by *women*. What would it take to convince you that this post is toxic? It's so clearly anti-women. I don't even understand your position of "3% is negligible", no it isn't! Imagine if the composition of your body was off by 3% , you wouldn't function at all. Same with society today.

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In my opinion, that is a direct result of the country being founded by men and equality only being written into law in 1920. No matter how you cut it, that's a 200 year headstart on establishing a position in the workforce, even if you refuse to accept that the progress in actually creating substantive equality after writing the law takes decades if not centuries to complete.

Take a look at these numbers while I build the context to explain my point. "The National Architectural Accrediting Board reported in 2009 that 41% of architecture graduates were women". that's from 2009, i'd wager it's continued to rise over the last 10 years.

Here's one from the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards. "While women remain underrepresented among practitioners, they now account for 36 percent of newly licensed architects, compared to 34 percent in 2015."

So, lets reevaluate the statement.

A poster, presumably posted in 2019 in a large city, states that everything you see was built by men supporting their families. I don't know how much you know about buildings, but a lot of them are old as all fuck. Not all of them, but a whole boatload of them. I can't identify the city in the photograph, but i'm going to use Manhattan skyscrapers as an example. Everyone knows the classic picture of the workers sitting on the beam while constructing the Rockefeller in the 1930's.

A brief glance at the wikipedia page for early architecture shows that there was tremendous progress made in designing and constructing skyscrapers in the 1800's and early 1900's. In fact, the period of 1900-1920 is labeled as the "first great age" in architecture, so I think it's fair to say that the industry had been deeply established before women were given the right to vote. By 1920, just as women received the right to vote and took the first real step towards developing an equal country, only 24% of women were in the workforce. You might say "well that's not so bad" but you haven't heard the real juice yet. What jobs were the women doing? All of the jobs that we now use as symbols of the our ancient sexist ways. Hey dollface, take a look at this quote from an Article called Women's Employment, 1865-1920. "Cities dominated by heavy industry or in the newly settled West had few non-domestic jobs for women." So the roots of this industry were planted by men, women were not allowed to participate on any significant level, and women have been slowly pushing their way into that industry for 100 years.

So, if we look at this trend of females in the workforce increasing consistently and in increasingly more impactful roles, then we can see that despite being given the right to vote in 1920, they did not receive true equality until recently, if they have truly received it yet at all. That debate is for another time, but the point is this:

The poster says everything was created by men, and it literally cannot be debated that this is factually false. If even a single woman contributed, then the statement is false. The question is why that matters. It has taken 100 years of blood sweat and tears just to get to a point where we can debate whether men and women are equal. And still, the debate is not conclusive. There are valid arguments on both sides, which means there is still progress to be made. When you say everything was build by men, you ignore the last 100 years of progress, diminish the entire history women's of suffrage, and decry any future progress they might make. It's sexist, plain and simple.\

So, once again. I'm saying that all celebration should be done without diminishing the efforts of others. Women contributed, so the statement is sexist. End of story.

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I've worked directly under a handful. The most efficient ones are those with hands on experience themselves, so you do the math.

Literally I've gotten my hands in practically everything over those years. I could make a call to a hundred different services industry companies and get a job instantly without them even caring to do a background on me because I'm just so good... or start my own business anywhere on earth and do well because my skills are highly in demand and mix of skills at that level are nearly always sought after. in both recession and in booms.

The guys I work with are needed for society to survive. 90% of other jobs on earth are not. Since the 1970's, life expectancy has only increased about ten years... for all the nonsense and hero nurses and hospitals now mostly staffed by women... all the billions and trillions spent.. the world would be absolutely fine and survive without any of that today.

but construction? housing? plumbing and electrical? Half the world would be dead in a month without these 97% men-dominated jobs

Women do a lot of important work in this world. None of us would be alive today if not for mothers who dont abort their kids. so all in all i'd say we are equally important

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I guess if you think that women can naturally make babies without men then no, there shouldn't be a middle ground there. Too bad for you, it takes a man and a woman, so your argument holds no weight.

If you take a look, i said "its fair to say men make most things." But when you say that men made everything, you say women did not contribute. That statement is blatantly false, it is overtly sexist and if diminishes the entire history of women's suffrage. Of course women accomplish less in society, we only wrote equality into law in 1920 and only started seriously practicing it in the last 20 years. You would have to be stupid to expect equal results when men had a 200 year headstart in etablishing their place in the workforce. The fact that we still argue about equal pay shows that we have not reached true equality yet, and yours standing here bragging about men building the world for women who weren't allowed to help. Almost all of those building were built before women had even remotely integrated into the workforce you dunce.

So when you directly imply that women have not contributed to society, you are saying that all the work they did to earn equal rights was for nothing. You diminish the entire movement over a fucking rounding error, over our hyperbole, in the name of "men's rights".

[–]AdamChap 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I guess if you think that women can naturally make babies without men then no, there shouldn't be a middle ground there. Too bad for you, it takes a man and a woman, so your argument holds no weight.

Pedantic.

That statement is blatantly false, it is overtly sexist and if diminishes the entire history of women's suffrage.

and your very next sentence....

Of course women accomplish less in society

Yo, Listen up! I'm stating facts not nice things you wanna hear. Similarly suffrage isn't single-handedly responsible for improving women's lives either. If it wasn't for technology, do you think women could really do the tough dangerous jobs of 300 years ago? Wanna spend all day climbing around mines? Neither did the men - because women are much more valuable than a single man. There are a lot more jobs for women now that there where centuries ago. You are a very privileged person.

You diminish the entire movement over a fucking rounding error

Wow. If you think that the truth diminishes the movement - thats on you, not me. Sorry that the truth doesn't conform to your beliefs in womens contributions. Did you miss the point that women raise those men who then work hard, meet another women, who they both work together with the build a family?

The truth is people like you value 'work' over 'family', because you are blind to one and obsessed with the other.

You would have to be stupid to expect equal results when men had a 200 year headstart in etablishing their place in the workforce.

Yes my dad is 200 years old and he has been working tirelessly to maintain this patriarchal system for only his future sons (He hates his daughters).

and yours standing here bragging about men building the world for women who weren't allowed to help.

WOMEN DID HELP BUT NOT IN THE WAY THAT YOU FIND VALUABLE!

THAT'S ON YOU! NOT HISTORY!

[–]crossfit_is_stupid 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]AdamChap 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The house i'm in right now, and all of them on my street were no doubt built by men entirely, given the history of where I am. The windows fitted by men, and the roofs tiled by men. No doubt women were involved in some level of the business, but not that.

That being said, the chair I am sitting on was made by a woman, and my bed sheets were also made by a women (I know the person) and it is likely that a lot of the other parts of my building that were designed and created by a woman. I believe a lot of our electronics are likely put together by women as well as our clothes and fabrics (women in poorer countries that is), so that could involve some number of women in the production of cars for example

I'd bet a lot of money to say that in that photo, the glass, the metal, the concrete - 99% men. I don't think you would be comfortable betting otherwise. I'm sorry if its doesn't sound like the way things should be, but I have yet to see women do those jobs. The women in my life don't, and the people I see doing the work are never women. I don't blame them, its not my kind of work either - but it tends to be men who find themselves in that line of work.

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[–]Mythandros 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]xRisingSunx 11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]ajthesecond -8 points-7 points-6 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Super-Speed- 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ajthesecond 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]TyrannoROARus -13 points-12 points-11 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]NordyNed 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Criket 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -7 points-6 points-5 points 6 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBoyScout 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jaibamon 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jaibamon 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jaibamon 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

We are not better than woman, we just want to be recognized as equals. You can find more about the Men's Rights Movement in the sticky post in this subreddit.

Again, how celebrating the accomplishments of one group in this society means a negative association to another group? Do we really need to add "and the other group did good things too" in every single declaration so you can't be offended?

Maybe you haven't experienced this yet, but we're in a culture were men are feeling guilty of being men. So let's have a moment to appreciate what good things men can do to our society, and let's do it in the appropriate section of this social network. Sure, maybe you don't like it, you may have good reasons to do it, and I would be happy to listen to you and debate about it, if you want of course. But if you're going straight to the insults you can pretty much fuck yourself. It took you THREE post from this conversation to make you say one good argument. And this is how you want to make the world better.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]makebadposts 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Ryunysus1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm gay as well and I think your opinion is BS. Very convenient of you to pull that gay card to show how 'progressive' you are.

I bet gays like you cannot even fathom that other gays can have different opinions than you or are on the other end of the political spectrum. So much for thinking outside the hive mind.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]thecolbra -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]HierEncore 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BartlebyX 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]A_one_legged_man 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]gumpton 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (38 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBoyScout 13 points14 points15 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+][deleted] -17 points-16 points-15 points 6 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

[–]HierEncore 19 points20 points21 points 6 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[+]janearcade1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Maybe it's different in America, but in Canada we have a high percentage of women in construction.

[–]HierEncore 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]janearcade1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Here it's around 15%, so OPs sign wouldn't make sense for me to see here.

[–]HierEncore 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]janearcade1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

It's a small number, sure, but so are the number of single fathers that run households here, but I still think it's valuable to bring up. I'd dislike a sign that said something like "All of the children you will ever see were raised by mothers. WomenAreAwesome.

[–]HierEncore 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Zambito1 -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]BakedNietzsche 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]HierEncore 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Caesar3890 -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]HierEncore 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Caesar3890 -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]HierEncore 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Sad_Capybara 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Fuzzybus2400 -8 points-7 points-6 points 6 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rolten 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[+]ravenous_bagel1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

At one job I had it was 50/50 men/women. Have you met many construction workers or road builders in the first place?

[–]Rolten 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBoyScout 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]waync1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

This sub Reddit is cringe as fuck. Women made all men so women are clearly better. Have fun fucking your guy friends incels.

[–]Rolten 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]waync -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rolten 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]waync 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rolten 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]waync -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rolten 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]spreadhalfeagle 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Goofyface1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Hahaha wow, wtf is this shit? This is some facebook cringe shit!

[–]HierEncore 11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]Goofyface1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

It doesn't matter, it's such a desperate attempt to grasp at 'respect' and it reeks of "1 like = 1 respect", and it's printed out and taped to a fucking lamppost! hahaha

[–]HierEncore 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Lichu12 -15 points-14 points-13 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]AshenMacaroon 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBoyScout 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]PreInfinityTV 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lllllllmao 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Tittie_Magee -11 points-10 points-9 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]HierEncore 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PreInfinityTV 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Tittie_Magee -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]BeProductiveAsshole -9 points-8 points-7 points 6 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–]HierEncore 14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[+]BeProductiveAsshole -12 points-11 points-10 points 6 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]HierEncore 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[+]BeProductiveAsshole -8 points-7 points-6 points 6 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]HierEncore 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]BeProductiveAsshole 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]Universal_Cup 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]BeProductiveAsshole 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Universal_Cup 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]HierEncore 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]BeProductiveAsshole 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]MoeJoe403 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]HierEncore 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]hecker421 -8 points-7 points-6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Mandinder 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]trustybadmash -9 points-8 points-7 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]HierEncore 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]professor_mcamateur -4 points-3 points-2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Goku1920 -20 points-19 points-18 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]Theorymeltfool11 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

No, it means men. I think less than 1% of construction projects involve women at some stage.

[–]karlhungus53 -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Eggless_Omelette -12 points-11 points-10 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]HierEncore 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Eggless_Omelette -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]AHHH_BEEEES -17 points-16 points-15 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -11 points-10 points-9 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]AHHH_BEEEES -5 points-4 points-3 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]Mandinder -8 points-7 points-6 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]AHHH_BEEEES -6 points-5 points-4 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]PreInfinityTV 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mandinder 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]BlackVendaeta -6 points-5 points-4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]PreInfinityTV 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BlackVendaeta 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Uintahwolf -8 points-7 points-6 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]BartlebyX 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Uintahwolf -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]BartlebyX -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PreInfinityTV 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]RusherOfDin1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (14 children) | Copy Link

And a few women trying to prove a point by wasting their most healthy reproductive years.

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 6 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[+]red_philosopher -11 points-10 points-9 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lichu12 12 points13 points14 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[+]red_philosopher -7 points-6 points-5 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]MisterBojiggles 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]red_philosopher 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]MisterBojiggles 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Idiotechnicality1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Hopefully you plan on speeding up the process.

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[–]HierEncore 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]PreInfinityTV 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]DoctorsGaming1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Nice repost from r/MGTOW, give credit at least lol

[–]HierEncore 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Comments

womenareawesome

MAGA

Title	Everything you see
Author	HierEncore
Upvotes	3527
Comments	445
Date	September 7, 2019 11:29 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/d0uvkr/everything_you_see/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/everything-you-see.869652 https://theredarchive.com/post/869652