Female MRA here , AMA

Final_Collection_515 · 2022-02-28T15:18:10+00:00

Sorry if this post is something you see often...

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Not from day one. Day one was women fighting for the right to vote.

Men being pushed to serve in the war was propagated by other men too. It was considered prestigious to be this hero defending a country. Men were pushed by other men to go into wars just like women. It was a cultural thing so people did it as that was understood to be right, just like women being pushed to birth babies was coming from men and from other women. They felt it was their duty for the country how Zelensky sees it as his duty to stay in Ukraine and fight. Women wanted to join too and fight and they eventually got that right. Initially women were not allowed to join military. Women contributed to the world wars as well.

People being assholes is not a premise to an ideology. Like people did horrible things in the name of Christianity. But that wasn’t the point of Christian ideology. Like crusades were people using religion to justify wars over land. Nowhere does this get outlined as the point of Christianity though, the premise of religion was to bring peace and unite people.

Anything gendered is not gender inclusive. So doesn’t work to bring about gender equality. Someone doing that is doing the wrong thing. If they claim to be feminist, ask yourself if they are truly following the feminism ideology which is a movement to being about gender equality. If their rape laws are using gender that is discriminatory just like labeling people by any other identity like skin colour or sexuality.

Maybe you mean “female supremacist” rather than “feminist”.

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[+]gamerlololdude 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It should have been that women had to be in the draft too. Men were not allowing this, probably due to sexist beliefs that women are fragile and women need to stay home to birth babies. Women had to fight to be allowed into the military.

Rights don’t need to cancel each other. If women got the right to vote that is a win for women, not a loss for men. If men now wish to fight for their right to not go into the draft and they win, then that is a win for men and not a loss for women. these are mutually exclusive events.

Feminists do not support the draft in the first place, so for any gender.

It’s like we can either fight for women to be topless like men or make men cover up like women. The better solution is toplessness for everyone. Draft is this logic, we don’t need to fight to make women be in draft, we need to fight for men not to be.

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Day one was women fighting for the right to vote.

Many women were against right to vote, since it came with the obligation of the draft.

Men were pushed by other men to go into wars just like women. It was a cultural thing so people did it as that was understood to be right, just like women being pushed to birth babies was coming from men and from other women.

Correct but that is not what I was referring. Look up "white feather campaign", it was a campaign by early feminists to shame men who didn't want to fight in WW1.

People being assholes is not a premise to an ideology. Like people did horrible things in the name of Christianity. But that wasn’t the point of Christian ideology. Like crusades were people using religion to justify wars over land. Nowhere does this get outlined as the point of Christianity though, the premise of religion was to bring peace and unite people

I can't accept that only some feminists are bad when they have actively fought to make DV and rape gender exclusive. Where was good feminists then ?

At best, feminism is co-opted by female supremacist and at worst, it has always been this way. Either way we can't support feminism if we want equality.

If their rape laws are using gender that is discriminatory just like labeling people by any other identity like skin colour or sexuality.

Why are no feminists organisation supporting and protesting for equal laws ? Many instead have supported making these laws gender biased in the first place.

Only logical conclusion I can make is that they hate men.

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Fuck dude you are using the wrong definition. You are describing a female supremacy movement instead of feminism.

What is your understanding of what “patriarchy theory” is and “toxic masculinity” is?

Patriarchy theory is showing how western society was built around having men be the head. Example is married women get husband’s last name, or women would have their husband’s name on their credit card. Patriarchy is not good or bad in itself, it’s just labeled so we can explain trends through it. Chimpanzees have patriarchy, bonobos have matriarchy, that’s all it’s labeling things it doesn’t mean men are bad.

Toxic masculinity is a term to mean that based on all the traits we labeled to be masculine (which is arbitrary, truly just made up what is considered masculine vs feminine). When those traits gets used to harm people it is considered toxic masculinity. Like competitiveness is labeled a masculine trait. It’s arbitrary, men don’t need to be competitive to be men or that all men are competitive, it’s just been grouped that way. now someone can use competitiveness for good or they can use it to harm people. Same with aggression, which we labeled a masculine trait arbitrarily. It can be used for good like during war to defend a country how Ukrainians are being aggressive, or it can be used to harm people by lashing out in a bar which would be toxic masculinity.

Anything gendered is not gender inclusive and so doesn’t help gender equality. Feminism is working to break apart gender being a barrier for everyone so for all genders.

“have done nothing” is subjective. You may not see the outcomes today and yes this problem still needs to be addressed, doesn’t mean people are not working on it.

[–]Fearless-File-3625 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Fuck dude you are using the wrong definition. You are describing a female supremacy movement instead of feminism.

Feminism is female supremacy. I literally gave you so many examples and all you can come up with is "Fuck dude you are using the wrong definition".

Patriarchy theory is showing how western society was built around having men be the head. Example is married women get husband’s last name, or women would have their husband’s name on their credit card. Patriarchy is not good or bad in itself, it’s just labeled so we can explain trends through it. Chimpanzees have patriarchy, bonobos have matriarchy, that’s all it’s labeling things it doesn’t mean men are bad.

Nothing you said is wrong except the fact that feminist blame all wrong in the world due to patriarchy, even when men are only partially responsible for it.

Take your example for instance, married women used to get husband's last name, it was a tradition just men being stoic providers for their families and only men being forced to fight in wars are traditions. Traditional gender norms can harm both men and women and they are perpetuated by (again) both men and women. Feminists use patriarchy theory to put all the blame on only men. A better term would be "societal norms".

Toxic masculinity is a term to mean that based on all the traits we labeled to be masculine (which is arbitrary, truly just made up what is considered masculine vs feminine). When those traits gets used to harm people it is considered toxic masculinity. Like competitiveness is labeled a masculine trait. It’s arbitrary, men don’t need to be competitive to be men or that all men are competitive, it’s just been grouped that way. now someone can use competitiveness for good or they can use it to harm people. Same with aggression, which we labeled a masculine trait arbitrarily. It can be used for good like during war to defend a country how Ukrainians are being aggressive, or it can be used to harm people by lashing out in a bar which would be toxic masculinity.

What if a women lashes our in bar ? Is it toxic masculinity or toxic femininity ?

Why can't we call bad behaviour just that, bad behaviour ? Why we need a gendered term for it ?

Anything gendered is not gender inclusive and so doesn’t help gender equality. Feminism is working to break apart gender being a barrier for everyone so for all genders.

Them why the did feminists lobbied and protested to make rape and DV gender inclusive for women ? Why do feminists oppose equal custody rights for fathers ?

I have you 8 instances of feminist hatred, you cherrypicked one and wrote on it. Why did you ignore the rest ?

“have done nothing” is subjective. You may not see the outcomes today and yes this problem still needs to be addressed, doesn’t mean people are not working on it.

Give me examples or back off. 100+ years and they have done nothing, absolutely nothing except spewing hatred against men.

[+]gamerlololdude 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Any human lashing out at a bar is toxic masculinity.

It is an archaic thing to be labeling things as masculine vs feminine but since those traits were at one point, that’s how the term came about. There is a cluster of traits that are supposed to be “masculine” that today end up causing problems. A good example to analyze is Fight Club. there is interesting things there to unpack in terms of understanding masculinity and toxic masculinity.

When Wikipedia states that Judith Butler is a feminist philosopher, if you imagine that to mean female supremacist you will have a difficult time understanding the complexity around this topic. when reading scholarly journals, every time it says feminism it doesn’t mean female supremacist. so for you, if you go reading those journals to get more educated on these intricate concepts you will get a warped perception of what is going on. Simply because we did not take the time to define what we are talking about.

And you know what, this leads to a problem where this sub doesn’t understand who their opponent is. the opponent is female supremacists. People who are AGAINST men’s rights. Not people who are working on women’s rights issues. Those are different things. You can let a bunch of of people focus on women’s rights and advocating for them, it doesn’t stop you guys from gathering to advocate for men’s rights the same.

if there is a bunch of women working on period poverty issues, those aren’t you enemy. your enemy is people who want to go against men’s rights by actively putting barriers.

I’ll give an example. Transgender rights count as part of feminism (academic definition) because working towards equal rights of all genders. If my workplace does not account for transgender people, there actually is no enemy. I just need to do extra work to bring transgender rights up to the same level. It may take time and it may be frustrating that “why didn’t the feminists already do their job huh”. But this is the way activism works. You advocate and make change. Someone had to start it. The only time there will be an enemy is if for example some women, female supremacists, start doing things AGAINST transgender rights. Like actively making barriers.

In this sub when all the blame goes on “them feminists” it’s as if you guys have an enemy when really it could be misinterpreted that there is just a lack of men’s rights activism, just like transgender rights activism. And not that someone is actively trying to take away your rights.

There is a lot that can be explained by patriarchy (blaming it is pointless, don’t use that term. “blaming” it is like a child lashing out. It just exists and so shapes societies in a distinct way, that’s all). It isn’t men’s fault. Try to remove your personal gender from this. Patriarchy existed, it’s true. We don’t need to get mad at it and claim men bad. We need to analyze what does patriarchy imply for all genders since there is a lot that starts to make sense when this is acknowledged.

I have not heard of people making rape and DV only for women. I am in Canada. Did it seriously happen somewhere that there was a law written about rape and DV and someone went to lobby that they add a clause that it only applies to people with the F gender marker or what people with a vulva?

[–]Fearless-File-3625 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Any human lashing out at a bar is toxic masculinity.

It is an archaic thing to be labeling things as masculine vs feminine but since those traits were at one point, that’s how the term came about. There is a cluster of traits that are supposed to be “masculine” that today end up causing problems. A good example to analyze is Fight Club. there is interesting things there to unpack in terms of understanding masculinity and toxic masculinity.

You say "it is an archaic thing to be labeling things as masculine vs feminine" yet you are the one using toxic masculinity.

Feminists have a problem with gendered language like "woMAN", "chairMAN" etc. but it is perfectly fine use gendered term like "toxic masculinity" in gender neutral setting. Talk about being hypocrites !!!

When Wikipedia states that Judith Butler is a feminist philosopher

So ?

if there is a bunch of women working on period poverty issues, those aren’t you enemy. your enemy is people who want to go against men’s rights by actively putting barriers.

Yes they are if they actively try to divert support from homeless men.

You advocate and make change. Someone had to start it. The only time there will be an enemy is if for example some women, female supremacists, start doing things AGAINST transgender rights. Like actively making barriers.

Correct, just like feminists who protested against gender neutral rape and DV and equal custody.

In this sub when all the blame goes on “them feminists” it’s as if you guys have an enemy when really it could be misinterpreted that there is just a lack of men’s rights activism, just like transgender rights activism. And not that someone is actively trying to take away your rights.

Any men's activism is shut down by feminists.

We will both feminists and tradcons for their misandry, nothing personal against feminists.

I have not heard of people making rape and DV only for women. I am in Canada. Did it seriously happen somewhere that there was a law written about rape and DV and someone went to lobby that they add a clause that it only applies to people with the F gender marker or what people with a vulva?

In many places like India, Israel, UK etc.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/t51m1a/its_annoying_how_people_think_we_want_to_harm/hz3sx3c/

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yes. I don’t see the problem here.

Patriarchy is a structure where of all genders, those considered to be men run the society. Like chimpanzees have patriarchy and bonobos have matriarchy. This is explaining a sociological concept in terms of how gender structures developed in the past. It’s also more like stereotype of men that run society. A gender role stereotype rather than just the identity of being a man. The strong, aggressive, leader men supposed to run society.

Toxic masculinity is not attacking gender. It is taking what a long time ago was deemed as “masculine” traits and stating that a cluster of them when used improperly ends up hurting people. What we labeled as feminine vs masculine is arbitrary. It has a link to gender stereotypes than actual gender identities.

When I talk about gender identity I don’t mean women = feminine, men = masculine.

Like I can talk about the “woman role”, which would be really just a stereotype, to analyze a gender dynamic in society. But this is within the context of what I am analyzing. It does not extend to just all women or a singular woman.

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American Circumcision (NSFW) is a great documentary by the filmmaker Brendon Marotta. It's a good place to begin. It's a little over an hour and a half.

Anatomy of the Penis: Penile and Foreskin Neurology (NSFW) --In this short presentation, the anatomist and pathology professor Ken McGrath discusses the importance of the prepuce and how it is a major sensory zone of the penis.

The prepuce. (PDF, NSFW) This review from the British Journal of Urology discusses the anatomy and functions of the male and female prepuce. It goes into more details but is along the same lines as Dr. McGrath's presentation. Interestingly, I found out a while ago that one of the doctors who wrote the review, Dr. Cold, had his sons circumcised as infants and used to perform infant circumcisions himself as a military doctor, before he knew any of this stuff. He was cut himself, too. He didn't even know what he was amputating at the time; it was just what was done so to speak. It also discusses the types of long-term nerve damage visible upon study of the circumcision scar and (briefly) mentions the physical basis for why some men report neuropathic pain in that scar tissue even long after the operation.

Fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis (PDF) This study, also published in the British Journal of Urology, used a monofilament device to test genital sensitivity. It demonstrated that not only does the penile glans (head of the penis) lose sensitivity after circumcision, but that circumcision also removes parts of the penis, such as the ridged band and the frenulum, that have a greater sensory capacity for gentle touch than the head of the penis per se does.

This is a big topic, so I couldn't possibly share every relevant resource, and new ones come out as time goes on, but these are a good start.

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They change definitions as often as they change underwear. The original definition of feminism was a movement to attain equality in a male dominated society. They never cared about men. Two world wars passed. So you see any feminist book or voice trying to end forceful conscription in the military for men? Heck, ask about it and give the Ukraine context, see the replies. There's no tainting. It has always been pink.

Now that even try to be all inclusive, but I really want to know the opinion of a feminist about women's sports starting to be dominated by dudes on feminine hormones.

But I hope this woke thing continues. Eventually my country will be just like Switzerland. A small fee and I can change my ID to "female". I'll enjoy being rescued first, retiring earlier, getting more job opportunities as I'll be filling every weird box, hopefully war never comes, but if it does, I'm escaping first and safely.

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Definition 1 is fine. Social equality of the sexes is an accurate premise for the feminism ideology. “Especially on behalf of women’s rights and interests” is alluding to the initial point of feminism to bring women the same rights as men since they didn’t have them. it started with right to vote. today feminism doesn’t need to only do things for women so it’s closer to being back at the “equality of the sexes” part. Though that is a binary outlook, assuming sex and gender is binary, so is also a bit outdated. But the premise is correct. About equality for all sexes and there was a greater emphasis on women since they had less rights. btw, people working on women’s rights are not the enemies of men’s rights activists, your enemy would be female supremacists not feminists. because female supremacists act AGAINST men’s rights while various feminist organizations can be working on women’s rights and some on men’s rights and some on intersex rights etc.

Definition 2 is great. With that definition most of the times when this sub states “feminist” it would be using the wrong definition and it doesn’t make sense what they are trying to say.

Definition 3 is fine. It’s kind of like not seeing the greater picture but that doesn’t mean it’s the only part of the picture. It’s true that part of feminism is women’s rights and interests. But along with it is also men’s and other genders. This definition is also not outlining this sub’s enemy. The enemy is not people working on women’s rights and interests, let those people exist. The enemy is female supremacists working AGAINST men’s rights.

Definition 4 doesn’t make sense. Probably using some stereotype of what female and male means and applying a binary model around sex and gender which is outdated.

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[–]UnfurtletDawn 9 points10 points11 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Okay then explain to me why feminists in India and Israel were fighting against gender neutral rape law.

Explain the whole Duluth model which influenced even the police. Basically all about power and men aggressor women victim, always. Then you have cases when the guy is even bleeding and woman is completely fine and police arrests the guy.

There was even a case when neighbor called cops because kid came to them that mom attacked dad with a knife.

The man called the cops too when she was holding knife to his throat and if he moves she will kill him.

The woman already got charged with domestic abuse. Cop shows up and shoots the guy and checks woman for injuries.

https://youtu.be/k67wdM_XBvs

Or that when the woman that made the first women shelter wanted to make one for men, got death threats, bricks were thrown through her window and her dog got killed. In the end she fled the country. Erin Pizzey.

And once again full definition of feminism is.

Advocacy for women's right on the basis of equality of the sexes.

It is women's movement, for women.

Just because you change the definition to say we help everyone doesn't mean you are helping everyone.

Feminism isn't equality it is equality for women.

[+]Throwaway1762801 points 4 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

/u/gamerlololdude I'd like to see your take on this.

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[–]Eedoryeong 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

"How can something be gender equality for ine side?"

It's actually an observable, mathematical reality. If you have, as my region back home had, 50% job filling quotas for women in male dominated industries, but government drags its heels for two decades on creating a 50% quota for men in historically women-dominated industries, or in other cases with no historical gender leaning at all but still no 50% quota stated for men, then you get, as we had, 80-100% representation of women in unionized workplaces across multiple industries.

That is how you get the ridiculous scenario of something (like a corrupt ideology) being for gender equality for one side only. And thanks to lobbies it went on for decades before men's 50% representation was written into the code. No compensation, no public address of this tolerated wrong, probably on the myth that men look out for each other across classes.

[+]gamerlololdude 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Eedoryeong 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

1) it meant - and applicants were told - that jobs that needed to be filled would not be filled until qualified women filled them, regardless of the consequences of the understaffing problems. As the staffing shortages hobbled along, creative initiatives were introduced to endow individuals with qualifications until the positions were filled. The area was particularly high in unemployment so yes it was as dumb and painful as it sounds.

Yes it was drafted and lobbied by feminists - Canadians - and it was consistent with other lashings out, post-Montreal massacre, now documented and studied by lawmakers as well as academics. Yes it was part of a broader, shameful, organized campaign against men as a social and biological class, a phenomenon which has been studied in Canada and reshaped public policy, and which sentiment still reverberates today. Yes we all suffered. Not so much today, but that's a workforce generation that's gone.

A better present day policy exists where sectors seeking to fulfill minority positions state they "especially welcome and encourage applications from x y z group applicants." This is obviously less hurtful to companies because if people don'tshow up they can still go down the list. That wasn't the case for a long time. And nepotism has always been rampant there so the imbalances carry over generationally.

The act of bad faith here on the part of the designers is that it literally would have taken no effort to state at the outset that there was also going to be a complementary 50% to be filled by men. That would have still been flawed, but it would have at least reflected an attempt at ACTUAL equality of a sort.

But the architects of this legislation wouldn't do it, and not just for a couple of years. An entire generation went through this. Personally to me this has always been inidcative of a class war, not a gender war, and we're all being played. But I digress.

The region had really high unemployment so this policy hurt. However it works better today because they don't word it like that anymore, HR can hire a non target group after a period of searching, and activists go out to communities and train them for upcoming opportunities.

2) It literally was feminism in action, and you need to own it as a feminist. This is the not-all-men argument in new clothes. It doesn't matter. The word roots that make up Feminism literally explain it's for women, and that's fine - that's totally appropriate historically because it was usually synonymous with equality. There were tons of things women needed help with as a class for which help elsewhere was not forthcoming. But stop calling it equality. It never was and the evidence goes back from before you and me.

I realize many feminists say they are for equality but I contend that that is only done organizationally for equality funding qualification, and individual volunteers/activists are duped into buying it. We have long since reached a time when this definition is a (an intentional?) misrepresentation to public funding sources to the point of malice.

Bottom line, unless men's issues are going to be tackled by such groups funded to promote equality, feminism needs to share the public teat with other babies, or be outed as an ideology of bad faith. There's too much collateral damage to tolerate the status quo anymore.

https://youtu.be/8AA1lR3CC4s

https://youtu.be/IpPr5i1aHjE

-a former feminist

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It’s called feminism because when it started it had to focus on women due to them having less rights. It started with women fighting for the right to vote.

Eventually the different waves of feminism started focusing on gender equality for all genders. Like with 3rd wave and Judith Butler when people started to finally comprehend how transgender works and that gender is a spectrum.

I’m confused about the definition of feminism this sub is using. They probably mean female supremacist movement. Which is a separate movement to feminism. Feminism is an ideology around gender equality. So yes feminists do work for men rights. If you support gender equality and do work for men’s rights, because you chose to focus on that gender in the time being, then you are a feminist. it means you support women’s rights, you won’t be bringing down women, and you are working to build up men. you also then support transgender rights, since notice how TERF is seen as a negative which means someone can be claiming to be a feminist without actually following the premise of the ideology so they get their new label.

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[–]gamerlololdude0 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Based on what are you concluding this?

Like was there a study done on “here we gathered all people who identify as feminists in the world and majority of them said they hate men”

Or maybe it’s that you experience confirmation bias from what social media portrays and a few bad apples you encountered in your life.

You can use the term “female supremacist”, that would be more accurate. I would understand what you guys mean for once here on the sub then. This sub keeps throwing around the term “feminism” without considering to read the extensive history behind what this word entails. And what it actually means.

When someone claims to be anti-feminist, it doesn’t jump to people’s mind that you mean anti-female supremacist. because usually educated people ready to have a conversation on this topic use the definition outlined in textbooks, feminism is part of philosophical thought among many that exist. Claiming to be anti-feminist labels people as a hate group.

If you label yourself as anti-female supremacist you will get better support though.

Anyone who trashes man doesn’t even support human rights, mind you gender equality. Uneducated people trash others based on gender just like trashing due to race, sexuality, age etc.

How can someone be for gender equality and oppose rights for any gender? Like imagine we had a movement and then everyone gets rights except the non-binary people keep being put down, that is not gender equality at its root.

[–]TheRabbitTunnel5 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Go read feminist forums and tell me you honestly believe that they dont trash men. Unless feminist forums dont count as "real feminism"? How about Katherine Spillar, a major figure in feminism who opposes reproductive rights for men and denies that men go through domestic abuse? If feminism is about equality, how did a person like that become so successful within the feminist movement?

What about Erin Pizzey? She started the first and largest domestic violence shelter in the world. Not only does this shelter help thousands of women every day, but it also resulted in other shelters being built around the globe. Her work has helped millions of women worldwide. She should be a hero among feminists, but shes not. In fact, the "real" feminists hate her and banned her from her own shelter. Why? She dared to say that men are also victims and that domestic violence is commonly reciprocal. Does that sound like a group of people who care about actual equality?

You also flat out ignored the strongest argument I made. Which is that both men and women have disadvantages, and if you only focus on the disadvantages of 1 gender, then youre not fighting for equality, youre fighting for superiority.

Sometimes its not even about fixing a disadvantage. Women are already way ahead in college education, yet feminists still push for more privileges for women in education. Even when women pull far head of men, feminism just keeps demanding more and more. Why are there still so many female-only scholarships, and affirmative action for women in education, when women are already so far ahead? Thats not equality.

Your argument is extremely weak. Despite the fact that feminists very clearly aren't advocating for equality, you just ignore all the facts and say "those aren't true feminists."

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I would urge this sub to start saying “female-supremacist” instead of feminist. this seems to be what you guys mean whenever that term is used.

when you say you are anti-feminist or not a feminist, for educated people this registers as being against women rights like the right to vote (when feminism started) and against gender equality. Which just paints you as unknowledgeable in the domain since being against gender equality can label you as against transgender rights too. It also comes off stupid since men’s rights are part of gender equality.

There is a social media form of people stating they are feminist. Which is skewing the point of the ideology since they are what would be called female supremacists but claim to be feminist.

It’s like if you go around saying you hate muslims and are anti-Muslim, you will be deemed as discriminatory. What you can actually mean is you are against Muslim extremists, which are terrorists hiding under the guise of religion to propagate hateful views, but because you are not taking the time to distinguish this you will not get the proper support from others.

Social media may portray Muslims as just terrorists, but here it would be beneficial to go read about what Muslim is actually. Just like what feminism is actually. So that you can start using the proper definitions to communicate what you mean.

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

for educated people this registers as being against women rights like the right to vote

Not for educated people.
Only for the indoctrinated ones..

There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom..

There is a social media form of people stating they are feminist.

Ok fair enough. So, if I should you actions of taxpayer funded feminists groups (who get billions of dollars of taxpayer funding in the name of feminism) which are against the principle of gender-equality, then will you still try to show me your 'school textbook'?

You think what is written in your dictionary or textbook is a gospel truth?
And what is actually happening around the world is a lie.

Get out of school into the real world. Educated doesn't mean smart.
You have no idea of the educational qualifications of people you are interacting with. So, stick to facts, instead of ideologies.
Lets see how educated you really are.

[+]gamerlololdude 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You are using the wrong terms which is causing pushback. If this sub states it is anti-feminist when it means they are anti-female supremacist those will give drastically different results.

Do you hate Christianity as a whole movement just because there were Christian government funded schools where people were raped by priests.

If you have a problem with what an organization is doing, call them out with the same textbook definition I am using. If they are not for gender equality, they are not following their own claimed values. Sit them down and use the same ideological premise to explain why gender equality means equality for all genders, so along with women and transgender rights men’s rights are part of feminism.

As a side note, an organization can be feminist and be focused on women’s rights because that is the one thing they chose to work on of all genders. It is possible to build women up without putting down any other gender. Just like you can have a feminist organization focusing just in men’s rights to build men up without putting down any gender.

Fact is that if you say “feminist” to mean “female supremacist” you are confusing people and you will get pushback.

The actions of a few people on social media or in your country is not indicative of a philosophical ideology.

Men’s Rights Activists are now used as a term to mean male supremacists. Because of bad actions of few. It would be cool to be allowed to use Men’s Rights Activists to mean what it originally meant as part of the original ideology of just, well, advocating for men’s rights. A few bad apples changed the definition. We now have to say Men’s Liberation movement to mean people fighting for men’ rights.

While definitions of words can change. Unfortunately because the term “feminism” is a highly literary and historical term, it won’t make sense to keep correcting people that your definition of feminist is female supremacist now.

Like MGTOW started wholesome but a few bad apples fucked it up so bad. Try to save this sub, the more times men try to start a wholesome movement to fight for their rights but turn to being viewed as male supremacists, the reputation will just get worse. Claiming to be anti-feminist is causing this effect even though all you need to do is change the used words.

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

As a side note, an organization can be feminist and be focused on women’s rights because that is the one thing they chose to work on of all genders

I said I can show you that taxpayer funded feminist organizations that lobbied 'against' basic human rights of men.

There is a difference between supporting women rights, and opposing men's rights.

Men’s Rights Activists are now used as a term to mean male supremacists. Because of bad actions of few.

YOU are using the term to mean that. MRA is well accepted in my country. I have even been invited to give talks in schools. I decline, coz I don't have enough time.
What is inside your head is indoctrination. Normal human beings are smarter than that.
So, don't impose your own ideas on me. I know what I am doing.

Its none of your business.
You aren't an MRA. so, stay out of it.
Go and fix your movement first then come back to tell us how to fix ours.

feminism” is a highly literary and historical term

Exactly! It doesn't have a dictionary definition. The movement is defined by collective action of its members.
That's what I said in my first comment.

Try to save this sub

Are you reddit admin? Are you its sponsor? Are you the mod of this sub?
Who are you to talk about saving this sub?

Mind your own business.
You are just a troll.
So stick to your status.
Trolls don't get to decide the fate of this sub.

And MRM is way bigger than this sub.
Banning MGTOW sub didn't eliminate them. It just moved them to safer and uncensored spaces.

You are fighting against human nature.
Indoctrination doesn't work. Gaslighting doesn't work.

What works is facts. And too many people know too much about the real face of feminism for your empty threats to work.

[+]gamerlololdude -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So it’s still a definition issue. In your country, where are you from?

In your country: Feminism = female supremacy Men’s rights activists = people fighting for men’s rights.

Not sure what you call people working on gender equality then.

In my country: Feminism = people fighting for gender equality

Men’s rights activists = still used as a neutral term but I know that online this term has a negative connotation

My country doesn’t have movements for female supremacy. Because once you start acknowledging people are on a gender spectrum, services for men versus women stop having meaning. My country is moving towards gender neutral approaches to everything.

Your country seems to be behind.

This sub is getting toxic because it’s misattributing faults. It’s literally becoming that which you guys hate. You see women as these people who claim men are all evil and out to take away their rights yet in this sub men are claiming that women are the ones that are all trying to oppress them. There are female supremacists to be afraid of, sure. Just like women can be afraid of male supremacists. This sub is getting extremists. Every post has comments like “damn those feminists”. How does that help, it’s not working to promote men’s rights, it’s working to promote hate to yet another group of people in a case where using the wrong definition is giving adverse effects.

What about using the terms “female supremacy” (bad) and “gender inclusivity movement” (good) instead of feminism if that is a spooky word around here.

I come here like “cool, let’s talk about men’s rights so I can see what needs to be worked on” and all I see is shitting on “feminists” which keeps changing meaning depending on who posts. I know from university literature what feminism is, so I am going off academic and complex understanding of what this term means historically, sociologically, anthropologically. Here it warped the definition to something I don’t understand what people mean by even.

like someone said “we are pro-women but anti-feminist”. that doesn’t even make sense.

I sifted through MGTOW content to analyze their mentality. I was originally part of that sub. I saw how it just turned into insanity. People claiming gender essentialist views like as if men and women are these drastically different creatures. Using evolutionary psychology to explain women behaviour which is a reductionist and narrow minded approach. Men feeling they own women bodies and wish to go back to the “good old days” when women were property. Being completely not gender inclusive like calling transgender people mentally ill and shitting on gays. That’s not helpful, it gives a bad reputation to men.

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Does your country have gender neutral draft? (Less than 5 countries have it)

Does your have gender neutral rape law? (75% countries, its biased. And none of the above countries are included in the list)

So it’s still a definition issue. In your country, where are you from?

In your country: Feminism = female supremacy

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

https://www.m.jpost.com/israel/womens-groups-cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape/amp

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sarah-everard-men-curfew-green-party-peer-b1816267.html%3famp

https://news.un.org/en/story/2011/12/397192-un-launches-plan-accelerate-male-circumcision-aids-prevention-africa

UN has got FGM banned, but actively funds MGM. (Although it says adults, there are reports that even 12 yr boys have been circumcised)

https://www.nypost.com/2021/03/12/uk-lawmaker-wants-evening-curfew-for-men-following-sarah-everards-murder/amp/

https://www.legalservices.es/english/criminal-law/domestic-violence-in-spain/

"Law 1/2004 has been extensively criticised. It has been argued that men are pre-emptively considered guilty before enough evidence is collected."

Duluth model and VAWA are both biased against male victims of DV. Both were (at least the latter) were promoted by feminists.

US feminists also oppose equal parenting bill. They even opposed the recent proposal to make draft gender neutral.

National and international feminist organizations have repeatedly and consistently opposed gender neutral rape laws, advocates for gender biased DV and marital laws, advocated for male-only restrictions like curfews. They also promote MGM (male genital mutilation), while banning FGM.

Feminists have repeatedly lobbied against 50-50 shared custody laws. And gender neutral draft as well.

Feminists are completely silent on, and even support, false accusers, paternity frauds and F on M rapists (in the example above, Cardi B is another example). They also support female DV abusers like Amber heard.

Go ahead, which country you think I am. You can guess whichever, the result is the same.

I have specifically linked the actions of taxpayer funded feminist organizations. May be, they didn't study from the same school as yours. Or didn't read the same book/history..

Men feeling they own women bodies and wish to go back to the “good old days” when women were property.

Who wants old days? I am happy with 21st century society.
Its the biased laws we are fighting against. And feminism because it lobbies for these biased laws.

You think we want 1950s lifestyle?
That's the biggest joke.
I would be more than happy to see the institution of marriage go obsolete in my lifetime.
I know it will (go obsolete anyways) in a couple of generations, but my only regret is that, I wont be there to see its end.

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Family court and male-suicide issues are often the most recognised and obvious MRA issues people are aware of.

But there are dozens more, which often paint women in bad light. They are censored or downplayed by media thats why you might see them here than anywhere else.

Example- Gender biased rape laws, MGM being legal, male-only draft, gender biased DV laws, F on M rape being legal in some countries or downplayed (as lesser charges) in others, paternity fraud being legal and enforced by courts, and finally false-accusations and its effects under-reported.

As far as why we oppose feminism... The list above is the evidence.

Feminism either silences the above issues, call people who raise them as 'mysogynist' or incels, and in some countries.. They have even lobbied for gender biased rape and DV laws.

Feminism perpetuates and aggrevates the problem. That doesn't mean we aren't for equal rights for women.
Gender neutral draft won't take away any right from women. Gender neutral rape laws wont take away any rights from women.
Banning infant circumcision won't take away any women's rights.

But feminism will vehemently oppose any modifications to these laws.

[–]hunkymonk123 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I have made another comment on how false- rape accusations are common (you can find in my comment history if you dig through).

But word 'common' is taken out-of context here.

Feminists say 1 in 4 women have been raped. And 99% rapes are never reported.
If you go by pure statistics.. about 120-150k rape cases were reported in 2017-20. The conviction rate of rape cases is 1.6-2%. (2-20% depending on country)
That of proven false cases is 2% (2-10% in different studies)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191137/reported-forcible-rape-cases-in-the-usa-since-1990/

That's barely 3000/4000 proven rape cases per year. Out of 400 million population. 0.0001% chances of rape. Somewhat similar to the risk of false accusations..

Now its obviously wrong. The 1 in 4 figure is also wrong, but it comes from self-reported studies which are flawed..

But its true that lots of rapes cases gets under-reported.

Same goes for false accusations.
False accusations are not just the 2% proven ones.

There is online slandering, spreading rumours, title IX complains (50% of them thrown out because they are false).

Out of 150k cases I mentioned above, only 20% lead to arrests and even fewer are charged..
So, a lot of these cases never reach the court to be proven false.
(I think its reasonable to believe that police will not let a suspicious case go uncharged).

So, majority of cases in which charges are dropped, would be likely be flimsy cases or false cases.
They aren't included in the 2% FA statistics as well

You have to understand that police investigate crime. Rape is a crime. FA is not. Once police are convinced that no crime (rape) has been comitted, they drop the charges.

Unless FA are made a crime, we will never know the exact number..
The true number is closer to 1 in 4 self-reported cases, that feminists throw around.
But most will never get prosecuted. Even if there is specific law against it.
(The same way most rape cases aren't prosecuted either.)

[–]hunkymonk123 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I mean there’s two sides to this conversation.

False accusations should be punished as bad as what the accused crime is, that’s a fault with the legal system.

The stat that feminists pull up is very very misleading. I hate the 2% of accusations are false stat because it’s just not a solid number. This isn’t the type of thing you can get valid, accurate data on. So I’m on neither side of “it’s common” or “it’s super rare”.

The 1 in 4 women are raped stat is just misspoken I think. I will say out of anecdotal evidence I would believe 1 in 4 women are sexually harassed in their lifetime so it’s not as horrible as it’s made out to be. And this is just from friends and work mates (I work in a male dominated workplace and even some guys go “wtf is wrong with you boys) it’s just a small, disgusting minority that drive up the numbers and make the male gender look a lot worse. I would say the case is the same for feminists, it’s a loud minority that hurt gender equality.

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

False accusations are seen in all crimes.
Those of rape get highlighted is because of gendered nature of the law. (So only men can be falsely accused)

This is a statistics showing 11% men and 6% women surveyed admitted to being falsely accused in the past.
http://www.prosecutorintegrity.org/pr/survey-over-20-million-have-been-falsely-accused-of-abuse/

The number is surprisingly similar to 1 in 4 rape cases.

And don't forget, even women are falsely-accused too. Its not just MRA issue.

I mentioned in many times here. If rape laws are made (truly) gender neutral, feminists themselves will start demanding a law against false-accusations..

In fact, that is the excuse they gave to oppose gender-neutral rape laws in some countries.

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

https://www.m.jpost.com/israel/womens-groups-cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape/amp

That's how biased the movement is. It makes sense why MRM is anti-feminist.
Women aren't the problem. The politicians and feminists (who control them) are.

[–]hunkymonk123 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks..
A lot of people brush-off the issues on face-value without addressing the underlying cause of the problem...

Its easy to say MRAs are anti-feminist, but it takes efforts why anti-feminist stance is necessary to make progress in getting men's issues recognised.

Anyways, nice to have this conversation.. Hopefully people will start understanding these issues in a few years. Solving them will probably take generations.

Till then, I'll do my bit.

I know some people get confrontational, and abusive when you try to bring your perspective. But same thing happens in all movements. (Feminism too)

We should all strive to get a balance..

Probably there will never a unified gender equality movement, but even if we manage to have two opposing view points, it should be sufficient.

Good luck. And have a great day.

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I'm not sure a comment like that needs debunking. I mean, if you posted it on other reddit subs, what do you think the response would be. If you showed it to your family or your wife/girlfriend what would they think?

This guy says: "men have plans set for their future, get a nice house, get a nice car, have a good paying job,etc..., but women get in the way and use their pussy against " Is he saying that women ruin all the good things that men work for? With their pussies? You can agree with that if you like, but you must know that makes you a misogynist. Many women also have plans and work for the things they want. Women aren't out there conspiring to make men's lives miserable.

He also said "you never see a normal working man get females spreading legs for him". What's your explanation of that line? The implication is that women should spread their legs for men just for existing. Like they should just be available to be used for sex and if not then they are the ones using men and being entitled?

I think we are getting side tracked here. I was asking a question of the female MRA as per the post request, I didn't really come here for an argument. I've always been big on women's rights and have been hearing more about men's rights in recent years. When I saw there was a men's rights sub on reddit I was excited to join, thinking I would learn some things but instead I feel like I'm seeing a lot of angry men (not all the men on here but a lot) hating on women. It's just disappointing.

[–]Jakeybaby125 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure a comment like that needs debunking. I mean, if you posted it on other reddit subs, what do you think the response would be. If you showed it to your family or your wife/girlfriend what would they think?

They'd try and shame me for sure but they wouldn't actually try and bring some evidence that would actively debunk that claim

This guy says: "men have plans set for their future, get a nice house, get a nice car, have a good paying job,etc..., but women get in the way and use their pussy against " Is he saying that women ruin all the good things that men work for? With their pussies? You can agree with that if you like, but you must know that makes you a misogynist. Many women also have plans and work for the things they want. Women aren't out there conspiring to make men's lives miserable.

Please say how saying that is in direct hatred or extreme prejudice of women. It is very common that very spiteful women do that. Unfortunately for us men, we don't know who the good women are who don't do that. Btw, I'm not a misogynist so don't label me as one. I have no hatred or prejudice of women. All I'm saying is that a claim has been made and it's been backed up by different data and that data isn't going to go away from shaming and name-calling. I do understand where he's coming from as he's likely had it bad in the past with certain women and that's the only life he's ever known. Same goes with women who have been hurt by bad men. The response to both of these scenarios couldn't be more different

He also said "you never see a normal working man get females spreading legs for him". What's your explanation of that line? The implication is that women should spread their legs for men just for existing. Like they should just be available to be used for sex and if not then they are the ones using men and being entitled?

With that one, I think you're misinterpreting. What I think he's trying to say is that people should or shouldn't fulfil others sexual desires given that there is this stigma that all men should live sex no matter what but women get to choose. I think both should get to decide. A woman shouldn't be entitled to have sex with a man as is already the case vice versa

I think we are getting side tracked here. I was asking a question of the female MRA as per the post request, I didn't really come here for an argument. I've always been big on women's rights and have been hearing more about men's rights in recent years. When I saw there was a men's rights sub on reddit I was excited to join, thinking I would learn some things but instead I feel like I'm seeing a lot of angry men (not all the men on here but a lot) hating on women. It's just disappointing.

In what way? You said there was a lot of misogyny here, pulled up one comment, I said it didn't look that bad and challenged you to debunk it and you just came up with this

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So feminists are biased. They only want to see things through a feminist lens when it is an issue both genders can go through. It sucks because even though I don’t consider myself a feminist or a MRA, I try to not believe in gender biases. I guess I will never be accepted by either side, because I try to listen to both sides, and come up with solutions that aren’t gender biased. I am not against MRAs or feminists. I am just trying to learn from both sides to be less sexist. Obviously I care about both genders. I have nieces and nephews, brothers and sisters, so both genders matter to me. I think the sexism is feminism leads to sexism in MRAs. However I don’t think it is helping either side. Obviously if there are toxic feminists, there are going to be toxic MRAs. It is impossible for either side to be perfect. We are all human. I just try to be open minded and humane. I am not picking sides. I am observing both sides (newer to feminism than MRA on an in depth level) I basically just want to learn.

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This isn’t a lack of a right, this is just preferential treatment. Depending on if you’re a man or woman you may have a social advantage in certain situations. The benefits of being a man in this regard far outweighs the benefits of being a woman.
Somewhere deep in my comments is the actual statistic of how many false rape accusations lead to conviction and it’s something like .0013% false rape accusations happen at a rate of less than 1% to begin with and even actual sexual abusers such as Louis CK still sell out comedy shows.
There are 3 battered men’s shelters in my town and 4 battered women’s shelters. Somebody else was complaining about this. I asked him where he lived to help him find one and he refused. Probably cause I found them even in podunk towns in the Midwest. This is an outdated stigma you guys are really clinging to so you can feel victimized.
What does this even mean? I can’t go around raping people? Seems pretty fair to me lol

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1) Preferential treatments is a right as people who are favored get a major advantage than those who don't. Losing money and your children in family courts means you don't have equal rights in family courts compared to women

2) ok let's say that the statistic is true but if you are accused you will be fired from your job and everyone will hate you even after you name is cleared it can lead to depression and even suicide in alot of cases and it f*cks up your whole life. I have read many stories of people who killed themselves cause they are falsely accused so, there should be anonymity provided to the accused until proven guilty.

3) I live in india and if there are very less shelter over here and also know will give a F if you face this and you are a man.

4) it has nothing to do with rape. Women can opt out of motherhood and a man can't? This is a obvious lack of right Also there are no laws which prevent circumcision of babies.

I have more issue I can speak about you can look up men rights movement wiki if you want to read on these issues in detail.

Edit: here are some more issues: 1) favoritism in education 2) in india - there is a major issue in misuse of dowry laws, in India and MAJORITY of the countries men are not recognized as victims of rape under the so called "blind eyes" of law

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Here are legal rights men lack that women have:

Presumed custody of children in the case of divorce. This was exacerbated by the Tender Years Doctrine, spearheaded by first-wave feminist Caroline Norton, and perpetuated by modern feminists through lobbying groups' efforts against rebuttable presumed shared custody.
Seperation of consent to sex from consent to parenthood and the responsibilities thereof. Feminist commentators have said that a unilaterally male-controlled contraceptive would "take away womens' choices".
Bodily integrity (i.e., genital mutilation. For girls its a violation of international law; for men it's at best unusual but tolerable, and at worst actively campaigned for as an eroneous means of combating AIDS). Feminists, while claiming to be advocates for "equality", are curiously quiet on this issue, compared to their efforts on FGM.
Immunity from accusations of rape. Rape requires the perpetrator to have a penis, so when women engage in nonconsentual sex with men, he is more likely to be charged than she is. This is mainly the work of Feminist researcher Mary Koss, from whom feminists get the eroneous 1-in-4 statistic. And if a woman gets pregnant from raping a man (or boy), she can sue her rape victim for child support.

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You are a woman? Really? Show me your putka.

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Title	Female MRA here , AMA
Author	Final_Collection_515
Upvotes	210
Comments	332
Date	February 28, 2022 3:18 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/t3hxcb/female_mra_here_ama/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/female-mra-here-ama.1104840 https://theredarchive.com/post/1104840

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