For starters; men and women are different, very different in some ways. Exercise and caring about your appearance are good things and play a role in success with women. Lifting is a perfectly good hobby and a great way to self-improve.

Also, going after what you want isn't just a good thing, it's necessary. You should identify what you want in life and go after it. That's not just good dating advice, that's good life advice. Nothing in life is handed to you, and you have to go after what you want or you'll never get it.

And lastly, "be yourself" is pretty crappy advice. "Better yourself" is much better, in my opinion. You have an image of what you want to be in your head, and I believe you should work toward that at all times.

This stuff doesn't just improve your chances in dating, it improves your life in general. Being a better all-around person makes you a more attractive person.

TRP is correct on all those counts.

So why are you here, COPCO?

Well it seems that BP is often characterized as the opposite of everything RP. For me at least, that isn't true, and the labels of RP/BP lead to projecting false beliefs onto others. That doesn't help the discussion, since so much time is wasted defending yourself against accusations that don't apply to you. RP/BP people both experience this.

So why aren't you RP?

Like I said, I agree with a lot of things said and supported in TRP. But it falls down at the point where it turns into hating women, saying that they are inferior, or using abusive or manipulative tactics against women.

This doesn't apply to all RP'ers, and I don't mean to say that it does. But many of the posts and posters on TRP believe and advocate these things, and use a lot of the RP rhetoric to justify these beliefs and justify hurting other people. There are people who turn "men and women are different" into "women are inferior to men" to "women are only good for sex." Yikes. Reading that sort of thing is jarring, and pretty hard to get behind.

Two important sections of the TRP canon that are questionable to me are found here,

TheRedPill sidebar>Required Theory Reading>All-in-One RedPill 101

called "Last Minute Resistance" and "Breaking Rapport."

Firstly, no means no, sorry. I've always respected a no, and it never impacted my chances of getting laid. If anything, it built trust to take things further the next time.

Some of the flirting stuff is really pushing the boundaries and should be used with caution, and is highly dependent on a positive context with someone. If done in a certain way, the flirting section can be just simple flirting, but if done with a mean-spirit, all of it can quickly become abusive.

But TRP is amoral and doesn't advocate abuse

Well, with so many posts speaking negatively of women, I fear that those tactics may be used with a mean-spirit more often. That's how a set of ideas to improve your game turns into a guide to hurting people. The difference is in the intent.

Other problems I have are with the ideas of "negging", "gaslighting" and other similar tactics. They may not be endorsed by TRP canon, but they are frequently discussed as accepted tactics. Without a counter-balance or temperament, a lot of the negative posts in TRP become echo chambers that reinforce the negativity expressed by the OP. And that's how it becomes a problem. When it gets to the point of advocating being mean to women, my support for it evaporates.

Quite frankly, a negative attitude toward women is completely unnecessary to get laid, as are a lot of the more complicated tactics. Simply put, a lot of the stuff is just fluff that isn't helping. I'll add my thoughts on that in another post.

You're totally blowing this out of proportion

Yeah, I probably am. But I'm an outsider looking in, and that's what it looks like. Much of it is unoffensive or things I agree with, but some stuff is so mean-spirited and angry that it really grabs my attention, and I can't brush it off as harmless.

So who the hell are you, anyway?

I have an easily remembered username, and my last foray into PPD is defined by me being a total jerk. I was wrong to approach it that way. I fundamentally misunderstood TRP and conducted myself poorly. I'm hoping to reshape my rapport with PPD and by-proxy TRP. My goal isn't to prove TRP wrong, simply to offer an alternative narrative that also produces results.

So what's your point?

For now, I'll leave it at this: TRP isn't crazy. What you've noticed about human behavior "in the wild" is stuff that everyone sees. It's not perfect, it may not be politically correct, and it may not be fair. No one is wrong for pointing these things out and calling them what they are.

What matters, and where I believe the disagreement lies, is in how you react to those observations. TRP has a set of guidelines on how to behave when faced with a very complicated dating game, but other ways also exist.

I encourage BP'ers and RP'ers alike to put their own ideas out there. Don't try to prove each other wrong, just offer your perspective without the baggage of your subreddit allegiance.

EDIT: I submitted a sequel to this post: Anger Hurts Your Game