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[–]LyaninaBlue Pill14 points15 points16 points 8 years ago (56 children) | Copy Link
be a mix of alpha and beta qualities to be a great husband. They also teach that men need to be strong and provide their wife with a solid foundation upon which she can lean. Is there any inherent problems with this?
be a mix of alpha and beta qualities to be a great husband. They also teach that men need to be strong and provide their wife with a solid foundation upon which she can lean.
Is there any inherent problems with this?
In theory no, sounds fine.
In practice the sub is pretty icky and it doesn't take any digging to find people advocating cheating (even on a not-terrible wife).
I'm wondering if maybe it isn't The Red Pill philosophy itself that people turn away from, but rather the type of men involved and the way they choose to implement it?
It's usually both. The type of men involved don't help, but there's also disagreement about ideas/theories. As you can see right here on PPD.
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (46 children) | Copy Link
MRP is not red either way. If they were red they'd divorce. So it's power plays and revenge against a wife that treated them poorly. It's icky because it's a straight up lie.
[–]concacanca4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link
Im curious if you, an ex MRP, wouldnt mind saying what you felt was a lie and what changes you made to where you are now?
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link
If you are red you don't give all you power away with marriage. Staying married means you are purple. MRP is power plays to keep blue pill image and sneak around with other women. If they were honest, they'd let the other spouse have say in their marriage.
My wife, who i told I was doing this followed right along and improved with me. Good woman.
[–]Fricasseekid[S] 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
The impression I got is that they want to make their own wives desire them more, not that they want to sleep around.
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
My first impression was also this. But watch what they do, not what they say.
[–]Idunnowhy20 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
What do they do?
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Amoral things
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
all 15k of them? Why not just go to /r/adultery then?
[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Also I wanted to say I’m happy to hear you’re marriage is great!
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thank you.
[–]ITouchMyselfAtNight0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Staying married means you are purple
Or you have kids that you want to raise in a 2-parent home, no?
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No matter the reason. Like MRP calls the Curious Red guy that runs the Christian Red Pill site purple because it's against his belief to divorce.
If you are unwilling to divorce for any reason, you are purple.
[–]ITouchMyselfAtNight0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Of course divorce is sometimes warranted. I'm just saying there are other considerations besides the relationship itself (like kids).
[–]redpillrobert -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
what a shit take
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Given your post history...you got a ways to go
[–]redpillrobert -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
probably. your take is still fucking shit
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Lol. Take frame for instance. If you don't have any, how the fuck does your opinion mean anything?
[–]redpillrobert 1 points1 points1 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
do you really spell your name like that
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
See what I mean? Sometimes, when I see a guy full of passion about what he's getting in life again. Not just anger phase, but really his efforts are yielding something, he makes is own version. Like TheFamilyAlpha.
But sometimes, just a kid with a stick of dynamite who's easily offended
[–]darla102 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
He’s crazy. Congrats on your improved marriage.
[–]Aaren_Augustine1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Thanks.
[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Are you not a merp? I thought you were married
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link
I was a merp. I am happily married. Never lied to my wife about MRP. She loved the effort. We got much closer due to the self improvement aspects. MRP is a good basic level of info. But you gotta build something better with it. Enjoying the decline is a rationalization for I will take advantage of you.
[–]DareyFathom5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Enjoying the decline is a rationalization of I will take advantage of you.
More importantly to me, it's used to justify taking deliberate actions that make society worse at large.
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hamsters gonna hamster. And many of them call women out for it. But they are amoral so being hipocrittical is impossible
[–]mach_like_a_flame 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"Society"
Careful, that's a trigger word 'round these parts.
[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Do they say enjoy the decline at MRP too?
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
No. Same mentality though. Hence the cheating.
[–]Yahuhuhuh 1 points1 points1 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yes. Since TFA left there’s no longer any pretense of trying to make something of themselves other than getting their “nut.” Gross.
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
TFA is quality. He help me out of Madness and I am forever grateful .
[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP Has The Tools1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Agree that TFA is quality.
[–]angels_fan 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
JackTenOfHearts was the most insightful merper ever.
I miss him terribly.
Very suave, creative and insightful but also egotistical and excessively precious and a bully too. Definitely more three dimensional than the average merp.
[–]angels_fan 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hmm, I never picked up on any of that.
[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I see
[–]redpillrobert -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hence the cheating.
yeah that's just me
[–]Young_OryxEats plants and talks shit1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Good for you!
You can accept the red pill understanding of female nature, while rejecting their advice.
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I reject that I have to manipulate rather than lift heavy weight. I accept that it's heavy. And I enjoy lifting it.
[–]Idunnowhy2 1 points1 points1 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Lifting weights is a form of manipulation
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's the absence of manipulation.
[–]max_peenorCertified TRP Shitlord1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
In practice the sub is pretty icky
Well there we go. Icky. We have it all sorted now.
The type of men involved are there because something is already horribly wrong. You know very well that that is because of a combination of how they are acting and how their spouses are acting. (Sorry, but women really do make their own choices and are responsible for them--shocking, I know.). The best TRP can do for them is tell them how to make themselves a better man. We cannot undo how their mate behaves. At best, he will inspire her to do better as well. Unfortunately, the vast majority of times is he will fail, because he's weak or a bad-loser, and she will devour a quart of ice cream while complain on social media about how all men are shit.
Yes, it really does take two to make a successful (arbitrary criteria is arbitrary) relationship. The problem bloops have is they think the two should be doing the same thing.
[–]LyaninaBlue Pill10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Yes, it really does take two to make a successful (arbitrary criteria is arbitrary) relationship
I absolutely agree.
I also absolutely disagree that one of those two reading and posting on MRP is what it takes to make a marriage successful.
The third post right now on MRP is a guy talking about fucking other women despite "loving" his wife who by his own admission is doing her part. And sex is not an issue in their marriage but who cares because TRP is amoral. Oh, but of course, he's there because of how his spouse is acting.
Right. It used to be that they got told off for being in the condition they’re in but now they just accept that there is no objective standard of right, that it’s fine to be a base and animalistic man willing to sacrifice anything just to get a woman to touch their dick. Gross. I like fucking but they’re obsessed with it.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't think it's even the sex they want so much as it is the validation! And of course it's easier to find a stranger who thinks you're cool than to convince a wife who knows you all too well ...
That's MRP in a nutshell.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Cheaters gonna cheat! The only women I've seen who put up with that shit is ones who can't support themselves (and/or their children) in the style to which they've become accustomed. Poor things ... I saw what my mother went through and vowed I was never going to tolerate that. So far so good!
[–]max_peenorCertified TRP Shitlord0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
by his own admission is doing her part
Ok. So what does that have to do with what I said?
because he's weak or a bad-loser
Oh, that part. Do you even read the comments?
[–]redpillrobert -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
that's literally just me
[–]LyaninaBlue Pill2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Congratulations.
[–]SmurfESmurferson15 points16 points17 points 8 years ago (38 children) | Copy Link
The sub is, honestly, gross.
Try a thought exercise - imagine your partner treating you the way MRP claims to treat their wives. Imagine your response.
[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link
Oh good question. You could make a whole post like that.
[–]SmurfESmurferson2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link
I would, but it's against the rules (I think).
[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link
Why would that be against the rules?
[–]SmurfESmurferson6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link
No idea. Maybe I should start a series of gender flipped MRP posts, just to get reactions from the guys here.
[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
You should definitely make a post about it.
I've always imagined that this is how it would go:
"Okay so, first of all, what you should internalize, no, what you MUST internalize is the fact that sexual strategy is amoral. Stop whatever dick pandering shit you're doing and internalize the fact that YOU are the prize and what you want and need is what is top priority in your life, and should be in your husband's life. Your husband refused to show you love and affection? Then you need to withdraw sex and start dread. Show him that only when you get what you need, will you start to fulfill some of his wants. He refuses to get his lazy ass out of the couch and find a job or go to work? Or he prefers to roll around in his rolls of fat? Dread. He doesn't give you enough attention? Get your fucking ass to the gym and dread. He nags you about you not cooking him dinner? Laugh in his face and take a walk. DGAF. When you leave, his hamster will go into overdrive and he'll start thinking of ways to please you. By the time you've returned, he's the one cooking you dinner and you'll never hear that dumb ass shit test ever again. Your time is too precious to waste on some needy man. Only when he works hard, at work, at the gym and at home, should you reward him with sex. And if after all of this, if he still refuses to shape up, and does not give you the love and affection that you need, then you need to start using the later steps of dread and flirt with other men in front of him. Nothing terrorizes the male hamster like the fear that another man is going to poach his woman. And if all else fails, either cheat or branch swing. Fuck that whole shaming about how you should be faithful no matter what. Who the fuck want to fuck a fat man with a beer gut so big that he cannot see his own dick while standing, or so unattractive that you'll probably find Waldo before you find his hairline? Your morality is your own decision to make, no one can make it for you. We're just here to guide you and show you the truths, but how you implement such truths is based on you and your own moral compass. Now go out there, slay some dick, and grab life by the pussy.
PS: Remember you're doing this for your husband too! Because if you do not get what you want and need out of that relationship, you're going to become a whiny bitch and neither one of you would be happy. He should be grateful that you're improving your physical and mental game, in order to ultimately improve your marriage.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Haha! Good job. :-)
[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
This is basically what's printed in every mainstream woman's magazine anyway. None of it is particularly controversial.
[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Then I highly doubt that you’ve actually cracked open an actual women’s magazine. You’re really just going by hearsay.
I’ve read plenty, and this is absolutely not what is advised. A women’s magazine that printed something like this would be highly controversial and be borderline committing social suicide.
[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I actually have read some hilarious shit on the Cosmo site.
[–]LeftAndRed 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If you do this, you’ll just get the blue pill.
[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I pretty sure as long as you believe what you’re saying it’s fine
[–]redpillrobert 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
well if you start with the assumption that men and women are the same, and that they value the same things (which they don't) then your posts would look fucking retarded
but i would be interested in seeing your attempt
[–]vandaalenRed Pill EC-5 points-4 points-3 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
That's not going to work. I don't know very much about MRP, but since TRP is where they inherit from, the first important thing is that men and women are different. Just reversing the sexes in a post will do nothing.
i.e. A woman is supposed to act submissive and not dominant, just for a start. Every post you would make would have the premise that she isn't.
[–]CatchPhraze3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
But submissive and dominant do not mean lesser or more. Some people are more equal then others is a phrase that should stay on the farm.
It's okay for your eyes/body to wander but not hers is never about submissive and dominant, it's about lack of respect for your partner.
[–]ITouchMyselfAtNight0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
It's okay for your eyes/body to wander but not hers
A man can impregnate multiple women. A woman can only choose a single male.*
*Devil's advocate
[–]CatchPhraze0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
A normal middle-class man in this economic climate has enough resources to provide for about one offspring per year (if that), about the rate a woman can get impregnated and give birth. In fact sense having multiple men provide for multiple children increases her chances of having a mate that can over provide incase something happens to the first one, this stragey serves her better.
So no, from a purely reproductive strategy she is server as well if not better by being unfaithful then he is.
[–]cat--facts0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
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I was under the impression we're talking about (immutable) biology instead of man's laws which change with time & location.
[–]vandaalenRed Pill EC0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I don't understand how this is in any way related to what I wrote.
[–]CatchPhraze4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The topic is how would you feel if your wife got the same advice as mrp gives husbands, you said TRP would say it's not the same because men are supposed to be dom and wifes sub. But sub and dom have nothing to do with the amount of advice MRP gives about lying and cheating.
[–]vandaalenRed Pill EC0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I am sure you'd happen to have a link to a highly upvoted post on MRP that features stuff like that. Care to share?
[–]CatchPhraze3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"Man: “Hey babe, I’m heading out, I’ll be back in like an hour.”
Woman: “Where are you going?”
Man: “Out/Who knows/I’ll figure it out when I get there/To Slay Dragons/To pick up a hooker/"
The third upmost voted topic ever, and i just picked at random. You can't honestly say that men would respond well to people telling their wives to pretend to be going out to pick up a prostitute.
[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
When she makes the gender flip, those kind of non-reverses will get pointed outin detail pretty quick.
I disagree you can't do a gender flip, but you do have to adjust it for the gender cognates. A "raw" flip wouldn't work, but in most cases you could find a way to move to the gender cognate of the opposite sex.
But then she'll just end up writing an (old) RPW post.
[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Considering that a woman is actually not supposed to act submissive, I actually think that it would work very well. Only women that don’t allow men to control their lives, are successful in dating.
[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Usually it's more respect and more sex.
So if it's gross it's a representation of what attracts women on. Most RPers are so reluctantly. The results are a sad reflection but consistent reminder of what works from a relationship and dating perspective
[–]Idunnowhy20 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Examples?
[–]ElectronicReportLady on the Bluer Side2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/8hobll/fr_one_party_two_women/
[–]Idunnowhy20 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Okay, so some guys there cheat on their wives. That is not a part of MRP. Why not address dread or something that is actually endorsed by MRP?
Do you have an example? I checked the frontpage quickly and didn't see anythign like this
[–]ElectronicReportLady on the Bluer Side1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]angels_fan -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
The men that stumble upon MRP usually find it because they're googling "How to get my wife to fuck me".
How are the wives treating these husbands?
If we're judging by the western female imperative, no woman owes her husband sex, so she's treating him JUST FINE.
But in the real world, a man that isn't getting sex from him wife is suffering immensely. She obviously doesn't give a fuck.
So MRP tells him that you can't negotiate desire, to own his shit and do the hard fucking work to turn himself into a man that his wife actually wants to fuck.
Explain why that is a bad thing?
[–]SmurfESmurferson4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If men can't inspire lust, they don't get sex.
It's that simple
[–]angels_fan 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Pretty much sums up MRP.
Soooo... Didn't answer my question why it's a bad thing?
[–]FairlyNaiveRed Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If women dont inspire loyalty, they dont get it.
Just as simple.
[–]FairlyNaiveRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Try a thought exercise - imagine your partner treating you the way MRP claims to treat their wives.
Approaching for sex twice a day? Id love every minute of it.
[–]PennnyLameMade a margarita once5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (53 children) | Copy Link
MRP relies on a male lead model. Contrary to many MRPers’ claims, not all women want or thrive inside that model. One could pretty safely assume that many of the wives of MRPers signed up for a partnership. That untilateral change to a male lead relationship seems particularly insidious.
My sister and BIL both became born again about 15 years ago and switched to a more “biblical model” where he lead and she followed. From my understanding, it was sometimes difficult but it was a process that she consented to not a model he alone read about online and forced her to conform to via emotional withdrawal and fear of him leaving her and their children (dread).
[–]Idunnowhy21 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (52 children) | Copy Link
So MRP works in traditional marriages... when doesn’t it work? When the woman is more masculine than the husband?
[–]PennnyLameMade a margarita once4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (51 children) | Copy Link
I never said MRP “works” in traditional marriages. I said traditional marriages can be male lead BUT that the pecking order was mutually agreed upon.
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (50 children) | Copy Link
And it's not in their sub?
[–]PennnyLameMade a margarita once3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (49 children) | Copy Link
No? The men decide on their own without discussing it with their wives.
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (48 children) | Copy Link
And what happens if they do?
[–]PennnyLameMade a margarita once2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (47 children) | Copy Link
Who knows? They don’t. That’s the issue.
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (46 children) | Copy Link
Well, you are saying it's bad, so walk us through the alternative. You say they don't know, implying you do.
Otherwise it just sounds like complaining.
[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It is bad to strong arm your spouse, through emotional manipulation, into an arrangement that they did not initially agree to. It creates conflict and resentment.
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I dont recall anyone suggesting they make their spouses do anything. At least not in this thread. You'll have to li k me to this
I do see bedbedroom guys complaining that talking solves little.
And people can't leave? What is emotional manipulation?
If someone's wife won't fuck em, I can't see it working too well, how is it even possible? Someone threw a link up of a swinger couple... Is that what you mean?
[–]PennnyLameMade a margarita once3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link
An alternative: Talk to your wife before unilaterally changing the power structure of your marriage. GROUNDBREAKING.
Yeah, i get you saying that, I asked you to walk me through it. There's tons of deadbedrooms posts where guys talk about it, and the wives berate them for the conversation. I just don't see it working consistently.
I assumed you had more insight than me, and there's something missing
[–]FairlyNaiveRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link
Im pretty sure every single merp has talked to his wife gazillion times pripr to mrp and it havent changed shit
[–]PennnyLame2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
And I am pretty sure there are regular threads delighting in their wives’ confusion and discomfort over their choices. Male headship requires communication- they don’t communicate in an attempt to play out a sad little revenge fantasy.
[–]FairlyNaive1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Im pretty sure thats irrelevant to the topic we are discussing. They tried agalitarian democratic model and their wives showed absolute disinterest in cooperating in order to get their core needs met.
Communicating is in no way shape or form an alternative path to achieve the core interests of these guys.
It is 100% relevant to the topic at hand? Merps communicating about their desire to change to male headship with their wives, both parties being open about shifting to that structure and the difficulties it sometimes entails would be a completely different thing.
They tried agalitarian democratic model and their wives showed absolute disinterest in cooperating in order to get their core needs met.
Oh we’re gonna play the whole “MRP’s are just precious, innocent angel babies” tune? Nah. Takes two to tango.
I didny say a word about inncence, babies pr angels. I didnt claim any moral high ground. I simply contest the idea that "communicating" is a viable option for these people. Their wives have clearly demonstrated on multiple occassions that they are not interested in listening to their words. Them trying to talk about this kind of changes would have changed literally nothing. Their only viable options are staying and suffering the status quo, bailing the fuck out or trying to make changes through more 'presuasive' means.
I didn’t say “communicating” as a blanket solution. I said if you wish to change the power structure of an existing relationship communication is an important part of that. That failing to do so is cruel which I think they see as a feature not a bug.
How would it help them make the changes they want?
If part of the changes they want is to fuck with and confuse their wives, it won’t help them. Hence: feature, not a bug.
Its hard to talk to you, you just keep dumping on me some barely related incoherent information.
Not sure what is hard to follow about this but okay. Beyond wanting respect and sex, these men want to hurt their wives. Not communicating their desire to change the dynamic of their relationship ensures that.
Even assuming that its true, that doesnt change the fact that they dont really have a viable "nice" option.
[–]PennnyLame1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
They don’t want a nice option. That’s the point.
There are many, many pathes to healing a broken marriage. Choosing to move to a male lead model is one option that is going to be painful and hard even if both people are on the same page. MRP specifically ensures the wife is in the dark by design. They want to humiliate her. The end.
Why do they want to humiliate her in your opinion?
Why do I think that? Or what is their motivation?
Motivation
They are mad and feel emasculated. This is in no small part due to MRP party line always being “she does X because she is not attracted to you and thinks you are not masculine.” She can never fail or be shitty or flawed because that’s how humans sometimes are. It’s always a reflection of him so he has to get back at her.
This isn’t even gendered. It’s a natural outcome of RP/MRP frame things. If a group of women were told “every marital issue you have had ONE cause. Your husband does not love you. He doesn’t put his laundry in the hamper? It’s because he doesn’t love you. Doesn’t buy you flowers randomly? He doesn’t love you. Forgot to buy coffee on his way home? DOES. NOT. LOVE. YOU.” That would be shitty advice too. I’d understand why angry women were drawn to it. I would expect they’d want to get revenge on their husbands who they believe never have loved them and certainly don’t now.
I’d understand why angry women were drawn to it.
Why would they be angry?
Why would men at mrp be angry? Why would the place that tells you that your wife is either piece of shit or doesnt love you appeal to a man?
God, its hard to talk to you. I give up.
Edit. Nvm, i take that back. Another round. Do you think they arrive at mrp feeling happy and masculine?
Dude. No one thinks these dudes are happy and masculine. It doesn’t make their actions effective or noble.
Im not making argument about noble, but im pretty sure thats more effective than getting no results via talking.
That’s not what I said and you know it. You’ve not been arguing in good faith for a while now. BYE.
[–]wekacuck1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Probably because they feel trapped and angry already and that nobody's listening to them or that nobody cares. The guys would have bolted long ago if there weren't kids or marriage involved. I found MRP when I was miserable and already plotting divorce because I just didn't see any possible way to improve anything. It was a shit show of us both trying to make each other miserable. MRP at least showed me to disengage in that, ignore her attempts, and that there were things I could do unilaterally to make things less miserable for myself.
Did mrp help you to improve your life? What were the results?
MRP was an inflection point but yeah, things are pretty amazing. But it's like Aaren says elsewhere, MRP is just one piece of the puzzle.
What were other pieces for you?
From the forst glance the list looks like you had to do a lot of balancing to the rp approach with way bluer teachings. Also i wonder how did feminist work helped you with db?
I don't really have any method to my madness. Reading feminist works started with trying to understand what is meant by "all heterosexual sex is rape".
What were your own actions that contributed the most to improvements?
Bonus questin: what does all hetero sex is rape mean?
No idea what contributed the most. I assume it's that I stopped being a passive-aggressive turdhead, stopped trying to win, accepted my role in getting us where we were, acknowledged my evil, let the past die, stopped caring about things my wife had done in the past, and rediscovered why I want to be with my wife.
Bonus evasion: figure it out yourself ;)
[–]paccount1121 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Do you have a link to this revenge fantasy guys are having? You assert it, but it doesn't sound at all like the motivation RP guys in here are discussing.
I've read tons of stories in /r/divorce where wives were hitting the gym, getting more attractive, and fucking someone else. Eventually lead to divorce when they have a new guy lined up.
Women don't usually discuss how to do this like terpers do, and if this is true, it doesn't sound like it's confusing at all to women. In fact, it sounds like they would know exactly what it sounds like, someone getting in a good position to leave.
also, I kind of agree with /u/fairlyniave It sounds like you are working backwards from an opinion you have, and not building an opinion based on facts
This reads a lot like the arguments for affirmative consent. The rebuttals sound just like the rebuttals to it as well.
Also, does communication have to be overt and sterile? I know "Men from mars, women from venus" Talks about the different ways of communication. Women respond to a covert style, and men overt.
Just as people argue here with consent for sex, does this overt, sterile communication you talk about kill it's intended goal as well? And what about when the other commenter suggested they tried it, and it didn't work? How do you suggest more communication work within a marriage when it's been tried and failed?
Link me to the comment where someone communicated with their wife about wishing to change to a male lead marriage and it “failed.” Or are you doing what FairlyNaive was doing and strawmanning my suggestion as just “communicating” rather than communicating through the change to male headship?
communicating through the change to male headship?
Wasn't this what you called 'unilaterally changing the power dynamic without consulting her first?'
The comments I am referring to are largely from /r/deadbedrooms btw. If you'd like a specific example I'd have to go back and look, but I'd rather flesh out what you're talking about, because it reads contradictory to what you just said
... if they are talking about it and aligned to the change, that is hardly unilateral. But changing to male headship without the wife’s knowledge or input is exactly what MRP recommends. Why are you continually misrepresenting what I am saying?
I'm not, your descriptions are contradictory, and I'm trying to understand why.
you say they should talk, unless it doesn't work, in which case you need to demonstrate. Then you suggest guys who demonstrate without talking about it are bad guys and need to talk about it first.
What exactly are you suggesting? talk abut it, then demonstrate if it doesn't work, but only after talking about it? Others have suggested that the guys did try talking first, and demonstrating after, which you describe as 'changing without getting permission/buyin first', so it is, and is not what you suggest?
Can you see how someone can be confused by your comments?
you say they should talk, unless it doesn't work, in which case you need to demonstrate.
Where did I say this? My comments are “confusing” because they don’t match your strawman.
Let me explain again what I am saying. My issue with MRP is that one of its main tactics is switching to a male lead relationship. Whether or not I think this switch works or is the best course of action is not even something I am commenting on. All I am saying is that this switch requires communication because submitting is hard (as is leading). Being aligned on the new structure/struggles that ensue can only help those in the relationship. However, MRP specifically instructs not communicating this shift and often mocks the resistance/pain that their wives feel when presented with their new reality “submit or I leave.” That’s shitty and cruel and I think the cruelty is something that many of these men enjoy.
Is there an mrp guy to clarify this?
[–]weakandsensitive1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
2 months late - yeah, we advocate the guy be responsible for his own happiness. if a guy isn't happy in a marriage, why be in there?
like you pointed out earlier, if that's untenable to the wife, we live in a western society where the wife is more than free to make her own conscious decision.
mrp heavily advocates understanding subcommunication as well as communication through action. at the end of the day, talk is very, very cheap.
so for example, when a wife isn't having sex with her husband - and that husband comes to MRP, we say "she's clearly not attracted to you." with the corollary that most likely he's an unattractive fuck.
[–]BlueFairyPainter2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is kinda why I see myself as purple but you see me arguing against reds only. I agree with many of the core ideas but the way they approach it all, the intentions behind their actions and how some of them spread misinformation about women based solely on the few women in their lives, can get pretty disturbing at times.
In between the good advice is a lot of super icky, cringe inducing stuff. That’s what’s so bad about it. The good stuff gets buried beneath the celebratory apologias they write for one another as they chase the elusive “nut.”
They cheat, they lie, they pretend “a man is his own judge.” That’s one of the biggest lies they tell.
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
they pretend “a man is his own judge.”
can you expand?
Basically they mean it’s ok to do whatever they want, no matter how grimy as long as they themselves can sleep at night. If you can tolerate your own degeneracy then you go man!
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
That just sounds like ethics
i don't know about you, but other than a psychopath, people generally can't sleep if doing evil shit
[–]decoy88Black Male in London3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Duh, that's why they need to type out all that rationalising.
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Got an example? The description you give is weak.
[–]decoy88Black Male in London1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
As in. When someone is doing something they feel is morally wrong (aka cheating). Their guilt will push them to want to alleviate it, often trying to rationalise their actions.
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
So do they act immoral and go to mrp for absolution? Or do they go to mrp, and then act immoral?
I can't understand you're angle here. Is it a place for rationalization, or is it brainwashing guys into doing it in the first place?
[–]decoy88Black Male in London1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Does it matter? They are looking to alleviate their guilt in a space that will allow them to.
I'd say it's doing both, reaffirming those who already have, and giving a pass to those who haven't but wanted to.
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If youre handwashing your critique by saying "whichever answer works to prove my point", it sounds more like you already dislike the place for another reason, and you're looking for a justification after the fact
[–]concacanca5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Honestly I largely agree with you. Where is the problem in a husband wanting to better his life? Should he just up and leave if unhappy? Bloopers would rather men just stay silent and unhappy rather than turn things around or leave an unhappy marriage. Most of the advice coming out of that group involves things that dont work like counselling (aka husband being told he's unreasonable) or choreplay. In other words, bloopers will bitch out at men who want to act in their own interest.
Where I think the objections stem are:
a) the propensity of spergy guys to take the pill then go rambo: https://np.reddit.com/r/TheBluePill/comments/2nj2ed/my_compilation_of_posts_on_why_trp_is_sexist_and/
b) association with the core TRP stuff which includes a lot of stuff they maybe dont need to achieve their goals (AWALT, hypergamy etc)
[–]Idunnowhy20 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
MRP foundationally requires understanding hypergamy etc, doesn’t it?
[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Yes it does.
It's playing out core RP in a married scenario.
Out in RP-O-Sphere married RP stuff is actually much more common. Dalrocks Blog, Athol Kays, Ian Ironwoods blog. A lot of the RP bloggers are now older married guys, so their material reflects those scenarios more.
So what’s the problem with it in marriage?
[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Well the problem would be (using the RP, not the scientific definition of hypergamy) that if she wants "the best guy she can get" and "someone better than her husband" swings by.... she's going to want him.
I don't think hypergamy is really a "problem" of MRP (or TRP for that matter) so much as a basic fact of human nature.
It's just an underlying constant.
Hypergamy is the sex reversed equivalent of saying "Males are attracted to young, attractive women". It's only controversial as women don't like it, because it seems to them (and to RP noobs) to cast women in a negative light.
Properly understood, it's just human nature.
It's just females being the female version of the human animal.... in the same way mens desires are the male version of the human animal.... no one is at fault, or nasty, or evil, for how they're instinctively wired. It's just a fact.
I generally agree, but i would put novelty&diversity instead of youth and hotness
[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP Has The Tools0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Absolutely, among other things.
[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
MRP are TRPers who became RP aware after being married. They're dealing with the hand they dealt themselves and most wouldn't marry again. There's little practical difference
Anyone willingly walking into marriage after being RP aware is a simp
[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Or wants kids.
Because, like it or not, if you want to have kids you're on the hook.
Ring or no ring makes not a blind bit of difference legally.
[–]Idunnowhy20 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Why?
[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
MRP is the answer to subs like dead bedrooms. If anything TRP is more helpful to married man than single men, because being in a bad sexless marriage can absolutely fuck your entire life
[–]wekacuckstupid buggy bot3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link
The most common objections to MRP relate to its apparent advice to stop talking and listening to your wife and its gamified use of "Dread Game" and refusal to reject cheating.
Also many marriages that enter MRP fail. Whether or not that's selection bias (because troubled men in troubled marriages enter) or because of the advice given is an issue of debate.
[–]max_peenorCertified TRP Shitlord5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Also many marriages that enter MRP fail
Der. People don't wander into MRP because their marriages are in a good place. The marriages are already fucked. The question is if they can be bailed out or not--the latter is the usual answer. The only way to survive a marriage these days is to not get married. However, if you are a dumbfuck and already got married, like me, then the only way to survive is to not give a fuck. Do what you need to do to make your world better and if others happen to ride the coattails, so be it.
And I absolutely guarantee that Legal Cohabiting Female is 169% better off now than the vast majority of wives of men just looking at MRP for the first time today.
And hey, I never read MRP.
Do bloopers laugh their asses off every time someone goes to an AA meeting and tells everyone they fell off the wagon? I think they must.
I think they must
Yes, they’re worse than the merps.
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
thats fucking disgusting. Do they really just stare at people suffering and mock them?
What? That's horrible. I'm generally blue and I would never laugh at someone who relapsed. What is this idea based on?
[–]Idunnowhy21 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
But what if shutting up/ignoring your wife makes her happier?
[–]wekacuckstupid buggy bot0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Making your wife happy is blue pill so you really fucked up.
[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP Has The Tools1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I must be against the trend then.
[–]wekacuckstupid buggy bot0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What are your criticisms of MRP?
Very few. Unlike many, I didn't come in dire circumstances. It has reminded me not to become complacent in my marriage. And yes, it has been helpful indeed.
I view it as guys swapping notes in the locker room. And yes, MRP is a locker room.
The one thing that I think people misunderstand is that they think MRP advocates cheating and sleeping with all sorts of women. I view MRP as tools in a toolbox. Several others do as well. Does the tool (dread, cheating, STFUing, etc.) have morals? No. The person using the tool does. I've mentioned it before - what other people build and what I build are going to be different. It's on me to choose the tools to work with. Some tools are ok. Some tools I would never use. It's on the craftsman to use the right tool.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link
MRP is a male attempt to guess what women want. Undoubtedly a fellow with a dead bedroom reasoned, "If I were to lose attraction to my wife, what would be the likely cause? Probably because she became fat, out-of-shape and unattractive. Therefore, if I lose weight and get better-looking, maybe my wife will want to have sex with me again!" And off to the races they go ..
The problem is that women aren't wired up the same as men. Ask most wives if they'd rather their husband spent an hour at the gym after work, OR ran the errands then took the kids off her hands while she made dinner, and I'd bet the vast majority would pick the prize behind Door #2. Unless you were a muscle man when you met her and subsequently turned to shit, or she's a yoga bunny who is deeply into fitness herself, working out probably isn't going to move the needle very much.
Women generally lose interest in their husbands because of disappointment, resentment and (sometimes) sheer exhaustion. Those are the problems you want to fix, gentlemen!
[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Say what you like about MRP in other respects. This is just fundamentally incorrect.
There is no doubt that MRP, and RP in general, are based on a foundational premise that women are fundamentally different.
Women absolutely would prefer the guy to take on more of the chores. No question. That wouldn't want to make her sleep with him any more.
When you tell us which celebs you fancy as in the thread the other day.... are you selecting them based on their housekeeping skills ?
This isn't how it works. Despite females being keen to tell you this is how it works, because they do want the ironing done.
[–]Greedyfriend 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
Funny you should mention that celebrity thread. Did any of the pictures posted show shirtless guys showing off their guns? Most of us don’t really even know what 90 percent of those guys bodies look like. Most mentioned was probably John Hamm
http://www.justjared.com/photo-gallery/2744467/jon-hamm-shirtless-mad-men-beach-scenes-in-hawaii-04/fullsize/
You aren’t completely wrong, no women prefer fat, out of shape guys, but look at the other thread where women described their partners. Every single one described their so’s physical appearance in glowing terms. Either every single woman on that thread married Chad or within a happy relationship, men have far to fall in the looks department before they are unfuckable.
Then look at the thread on nagging. The one thing no one mentioned is that women get sick of their husbands acting like one of the kids. If you spend the day making sure the kids are doing homework, brushing teeth, keeping their rooms clean, the most unfuckable thing a man can do is to act like a kid and have to be told to do his chores. I’m not your mommy, and if you treat me like your mommy don’t expect me to want to bang you.
There was a thread pretty far back on what women found attractive. Working with tools, changing tires etc, was pretty universally agreed upon by the women as panty dropping activity. The men were mostly surprised, and somewhat surprised to hear women were turned on by seeing men in motion. Women are attracted to men playing sports, not just looking like athletes.
Yeah, women like a guy who’s in shape, women don’t like a lazy guy playing video games all day. But most men would get more attention from their women by getting in shape by doing something more useful than going to the gym.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Well said!
One of the most pathetic posts I've read on TRP was written by a guy who was too tired from his workouts to walk down several flights of stairs and hoof it to the bus stop to meet his girlfriend's bus at night. (She evidently was nervous about walking home alone in the dark.) Apparently he was having trouble convincing her that his energy was better spent in the gym (and after all, he was working out to make her desire him, right?). How many here think that couple is still together ... ?
[–]FairlyNaiveRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
john hamm is indeed known for his exceptional ironing ability.
[–]Greedyfriend 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The ultimate example of Dad bod lol.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/04/30/what_is_the_dad_bod_america_s_leading_expert_explains.html
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
I don't really fancy any celebs, as I don't watch TV and haven't seen a movie in years. (Just not my thing.) I have a man who is my partner in every aspect of life. It is hard to explain a pair bond; words fail me but I wish all of you the same happiness and contentment. I don't think you're going to find it by "dreading" your poor wives, though ... but you do you!
[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
You're assuming a lot there, and a lot of it in error, regarding my life. I can't necessarily blame you for tht, but I'd caution you that you're going to get a hell of a lot wrong if you assume I don't know what a pair bond is, or I don't love my wife, or that I'm dreading her right now, or any of another 1001 things that people like to assume when they see my flair.
Regarding your situation on the celeb front, I wasn't suggesting you fancy celebs. I was just using that thread to point out a basic fact about female sexual attraction to males.... that "how often he does the ironing" is not noted for being a big component. You can see that in any conversation about sexual attraction that does not involve a woman who senses an opportunity to offer something she cannot offer (sexual attraction) in return for something she wants done (ironing). When we ask you what you're sexually attracted to, or to describe men you are sexually attracted to, "really good ironers" seldom comes up.
It's very nearly absurd as single men telling single women that the way to get a man to put a ring on it is to buy men they date a new video games console every time a new generation machine comes out. Sure. It may very loosely and tangentially related, perhaps it doesn't hurt. But it's not the core of the issue women need to solve, and it's pretty transparently a suggestion that the single men would love to take advantage of whether or not it helps the ladies at all.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Please understand that my remarks were not intended as a personal insult, but rather directed generally to people who choose that path. (I don't know anything about your situation.)
Ironing is a silly example, so let me break this down for you. Most women start married life madly in love with their husbands and everything's great; hence the term "honeymoon phase." Over time, however, a lot of men become complacent. They're content to work their 9-5 and let their wives take care of the house, kids, family obligations, etc. And the wives eventually become disappointed, exhausted and resentful ... which doesn't lead to frequent or enthusiastic sexytimes. (Resentment will kill attraction faster than anything.)
Now, do you think picking out nicer polo shirts or hanging out at the gym is going to turn this around? Yeah, me neither.
[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Don't worry, genuinely no real offence taken. People just read the flair, make all the wrong assumptions, and then it makes the conversation really difficult as I have to spend the rest of the exchange unpicking them. It's just easier to let them know upfront that almost all the assumptions they're making are going to turn out to be wrong and to just ask me if they want to know.
Ironing is a silly example, so let me break this down for you. Most women start married life madly in love with their husbands and everything's great; hence the term "honeymoon phase."
Well, I tend to agree. Perhaps not everyone, but I get where you're coming from.
Over time, however, a lot of men become complacent.
There we agree.
They're content to work their 9-5 and let their wives take care of the house, kids, family obligations, etc.
Yup, pretty much. Thats what they thought they were buying into.
And the wives eventually become disappointed, exhausted and resentful
They do, even though they also thought that was what they were buying into too.
which doesn't lead to frequent or enthusiastic sexytimes.
Whats has that got to do with the rest above ? Surely sex is FUN. It's a way to enjoy life in your free time, even if your "Housework" job is as exhausting and disappointing and thankless as his 9-5 grind at the office is.
If you're both still sexually attracted to each other.... it's a way to escape that and have some free and enjoyable fun with your husband, right ?
(Resentment will kill attraction faster than anything.)
What is she resenting ? That she got the married life she signed up for ? That he's working hard doing his bit ? That she's working hard doing her bit ?
Just why is she getting so resentful about getting the goods she ordered.... that she refuses to enjoy her time off by having fun, carefree sex with the man she's madly in love with and sexually desires every day ?
When the man gets resentful at having all that hard work to do at the office, but he still desires his wife, does he come home and refuse to have sex with her in order to spite her about that ? Or does he happily engage in sex with his sexy wife as it's a free pleasure they can both engage in to help rinse away the stresses of the day ?
Now, do you think picking out nicer polo shirts or hanging out at the gym is going to turn this around?
This ? No.
This is not the problem.
The problem is... She doesn't want to sleep with him. It's not that fun carefree sex that helps her relieve the stresses of the day. It's "another chore to do" for her. It's another reason to "resent" him for having to do what she freely promised to do. Because she doesn't actually WANT to sleep with him anymore.
Changes things so she DOES want to do so... because it becomes an exciting fun activity to escape from the stresses of life... is what the gym and the polo shirts (and a hell of a lot else) is about.
And, no, him doing the ironing doesn't solve the real problem either.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Most of the (unhappy) couples I know are both employed full-time, but the wife pulls a "second shift" taking care of the house and kids while the husband does fuck-all after work! This is what breeds resentment, along with poor personal habits like leaving dirty clothes or dishes lying around, expecting your wife to clean up after you like Mom did. Now, how can a woman count on a man to be there for her when the chips are down when he can't even get his socks in the hamper?! (So this breeds disrespect, too.) It's easy to spot dead-bedroom marriages -- the women talk to and treat their husbands like just another one of their kids, complete with long sighs and eye-rolling over their deficiencies. It's painful to observe ...
[–]angels_fan 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I would argue that MRP blasts these men too. They are called drunk captains.
We tell men to fucking own his shit and lead the god damned family, and part of that is doing his share of work.
While it may not necessarily translate into doing all the "woman's work", he better fucking have his day full of projects that bring value to the family. And, sometimes that does translate into doing the woman's work, but more likely, it's knocking off the honey do list.
If a man is spending most of his evening hours doing "man chores", do you think the wife is still going to be resentful?
No. That's a good point and an excellent suggestion. Guys, you don't necessarily have to the do the ironing (lol), just don't sit on your ass watching TV or playing games while your wife is slaving away at her nightly meal prep/dishes/laundry/childcare routine! It's OK occasionally if you've had a rough day, but don't make it your regular M.O.
[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Most of the (unhappy) couples I know are both employed full-time, but the wife pulls a "second shift" taking care of the house and kids while the husband does fuck-all after work!
If that’s the case the problem isn’t sexual it’s just lazy males. With certain caveats, around differential views about necessary cleanliness, there is no reason couples who both work shouldn’t also split housework duties. This is different from the scenario we were exploring.
This is what breeds resentment, along with poor personal habits like leaving dirty clothes or dishes lying around, expecting your wife to clean up after you like Mom did. Now, how can a woman count on a man to be there for her when the chips are down when he can't even get his socks in the hamper?! (So this breeds disrespect, too.)
Because the qualities in a male that means he will be there for you as required are not related to or s function of whether he puts his socks in the hamper. There are plenty of guys who would not be there for you in the way required who also put their socks in the maker. Again, you’re tying together unrelated things to get the result that you want (socks in the hamper apparently).
Have you not considered he has an equal right to you to consider the provision er place for the socks is on the bedroom floor ? And that if that’s where he likes to put them he’s as much a right to order the house that way as you have to order it the way you prefer? Maybe he likes them on the floor.
Again it’s different if he’s expecting the woman to pick up a double shift but for any husband sharing the chores he’s got a right to order then the way he likes too. To leave the dishes in the sink if that’s how he likes to queue that task etc etc.
I think a LOT of this resentment is simply that women resent a male who is sharing the housework having his own views on how to do it and level of cleanliness. Women view housework as “The men have to 50% of it the way I personally think it should be done and to my standards”.
They don’t. If he’s doing it too... you should be expected to bend to his standards as much as he bends to yours. Women don’t. The say the men are doing it wrong or slovenly and build resentment because he’s not doing it the right way, the way Iwant to specify it must be done.
That’s every bit as unfair as the lazy male.... and every bit as common. Don’t see women telling other women to relax their standards to accommodate their husbands views. They get told they’re right, and so the husband is lazy, and that builds resentment.
It's easy to spot dead-bedroom marriages -- the women talk to and treat their husbands like just another one of their kids, complete with long sighs and eye-rolling over their deficiencies. It's painful to observe ...
And where we disagree is to the root cause of that. We see that happening just as often where the husband does the ironing “like a good boy”. We’d argue that the lack of respect and treating of the husband as a child comes much more from the women... and the mans unwillingness to fight back against this... as anything else.
That this is an example of a beta husband so throuougjly ground under by his wife that he’s given up.
And if the husband who the wife treats like a child does the ironing it doesn’t improve his situation one bit. She still treats him so, he’s still unattractive because of it, and she’s still unhappy... and doing the ironing doesn’t get him to the same places “acting like a real man” would.
Do you not notice that many of the men in this position DO do the housework ? Yet the wife has no respect for him in spite of that ? We do. Or that this dynamic ALSO happens in a more “1 at home, 1 at work” setup despite the fect that there he shouldn’t do the housework ? We do.
The issue with this guy is almost certainly NOT that he needs to do more ironing. It’s that he’s lost his wife’s respect for him as a man. Doing the ironing does not rebuild that respect. Frankly, it often makes it worse and digs him in deeper because she sees him as a child she can effectively push around and tell what to do to no pushback.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Do you not notice that many of the men in this position DO do the housework ?
Nope. Never seen it, sorry. (Outside of the occasional all-out effort, generally referred to as "choreplay," which is a naked attempt to trade a couple of hours of housework for sex.)
Edited to add: I'm sure the guys on MRP will insist that they're oh-so-productive around the house ... but I'll bet if you were to ask their wives, they would have a different take on the situation.
[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Trust me, plenty of guys see it.
I bet they would, because there is no level of housework that can be done that a woman wouldn't like a bit more done. The question isn't "would they like their husbands to do more" it is "are they doing a fair amount".
In the same vein, I don't there is any guy who'd say that their wife couldn't give them more X. Be that sex, or video game time, or something else. The question is not whether they want more or not, it's are they getting a reasonable amount.
I've yet to met a woman who wouldn't like her husband to do more around the house, if only so she could put her feet up and get that 3rd margarita in.
The question is... Would that increase the amount of sex they have ?
The answer to that is, no.
Doing more housework doesn't get you more sex. And if you're wife has lost respect for you and treats you like a child.... doing more ironing does not get that back either.
RP advises men on courses of action that get that back, not on courses of action that woman would like to see... and that they're prepared to dangle the carrot to get... because when men DO those things, they find the carrot is snatched away. Because it's not about the housework, it's about something else.
[–]Willow-girl1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You are correct that it is "about something else," and evidently I've done a poor job of trying to explain that! Helping around the house, taking care of the kids, changing the oil in the car, etc., are evidence of the qualities that a woman wants to see in her man -- competence and commitment (to the family unit). There is probably an evolutionary component to this in that ancestral women who didn't pick competent and committed men probably fared worse than their cohorts who did.
Women are seeking evidence that their man is willing and able protect them from floods and famine and saber-toothed tigers. If he can't even get his socks into the hamper, does that inspire confidence?! However, the reverse is also true. When a man, say, changes the burned-out lightbulb over the basement stairs without being asked, it signals, "I'm on top of things, and the safety and comfort of my family are important to me." When it takes three weeks and his wife has to remind (nag) him three times to do it, what message does that send?
This is what women want ... the security of being in a relationship with a committed and competent partner. A woman wants to have faith in her man; she wants him to be her hero! Unfortunately nowadays, some men make that awfully difficult if not downright impossible ...
[–]ITouchMyselfAtNight1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
When a man, say, changes the burned-out lightbulb over the basement stairs without being asked
There's plenty of men who don't see the burned out lightbulb in the basement as an issue until... they actually need to do something in the basement.
[–]Idunnowhy24 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Wives say they want the errands, but they desire and have sex with the Husband that does the gym instead.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Do they? I haven't noticed many success stories on MRP. Meanwhile, my dad-bod boyfriend gets all the sex he wants, because he actually makes an effort to keep me happy. Imagine that!
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I think RP hears chore play when you say this. Of course once you clear a plate, other things can be taken from the menu, so to speak.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
There is a difference between choreplay (an occasional all-out effort to impress your wife in hopes of getting laid) and a steady, sustained commitment to creating a happy home. (Hint: if your wife regards you as just another child she has to feed and clean up after, you're doing it wrong.)
[–]aznphenix2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I know people will hate the term - but in terms of the 'choreplay' that merps complain about, they're solving it the same way that feminists say the 'mental load' should be tackled - men should be more willing to do the planning and their fair share of chores without being told to - lead in at least some areas, and be mindful of things that need to be done instead of waiting to be delegated. Taking the lead and doing things consistently with good standards, vs passively getting by.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well said! :-)
Edited to add: RP likes to go on about how weak, simple-minded, childish women crave 'leadership,' but honestly most women would be happy if their mates would simply notice the overflowing trash can or burned-out light bulb without being asked to lend a hand ...
[–]angels_fan 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
The problem with this is that men genuinely do not give a fuck if thank you cards are sent, or any number of things that women do to curb the judgement of other women.
Why should a man that doesn't care about this shit be expected to take half the load??
[–]aznphenix2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I don't know that most wives care about thank you cards being sent by the husband - issues seem to be things like taking out the trash on time, mowing the lawn, fixing lightbulbs, or general cleaning around the house. Personally I have trouble getting the guys in my life to do any amount of floor, bathroom, or dish cleaning. Did your wife nag you about sending thank you cards?
I thought that was the whole "emotional labor" thing?
And one of my biggest complaints with TRP/MRP is the idea that women are the oldest teenager in the house/don't mature beyond 18.
What they fuck do you call all these men that come home from work, do nothing to help with the house or kids and play video games all night?? Sounds like a teenager to me!
[–]aznphenix2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hm maybe? I mean a lot of the disagreements on things like whether thank you cards are necessary isn't just wholesale 'this thing is necessary or not' but a sliding scale on something you think is necessary. Like having a good relationship with the person who sent you the gift is something you probably care about, but you're arguing whether the thank you card is necessary to keep up that relationship. It's extra social lubrication that you think is unnecessary, but that really varies person to person, and it's little effort for probably a little to a decent amount of goodwill. That's also a more extreme example of stuff that's probably quibble able - most of the things that get complained about are things that need to be done I think. Trash needs to be taken out. Recycling needs to be taken out. Floors need to be cleaned. Bathrooms need to be cleaned. Laundry needs to be done. There's some minimum of keeping relationships with other people - should probably go see them for major life events like weddings, funerals, being sick in the hospital. So I guess it's all under the same kind of umbrella, but there's lots of basic other stuff that I think at least some of ya'll would agree should be done that a surprising amount of guys just don't do.
I could say, maybe for at least some of ya'll mrps though it's that your wife wants floors to be vacuumed once a day and you think it's necessary only once a week. Where as I (and probably most of the other women that complain about this) would like the once a week and them taking initiative on it if there's a lot of cleaning needs to be done, and getting never or very infrequently.
[–]redpillrobert 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
faggot
Well, that was an insightful comment!
[–]Superfluous97Student of Critical Thinking0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Quick and simple—I like it.
[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP Has The Tools0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Agree with TGP that this is fundamentally incorrect, for the reasons specified.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Well of course; you're a man. You can't be expected to intuitively know how women think or what they prioritize ... the same way I wouldn't expect to intuitively understand men's priorities.
When you say it, you suggest men aren't appeasing your demands right. When TGP and sado are saying it, they say that they are doing what women respond to.
kind of explains this thread
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
It is not a matter of "appeasing women's demands." Women don't want a servant; they want to feel like their partner is a full-functioning, responsible adult equally committed to the aims and goals of the family unit. They want a partner who is at least as strong and competent as they are ... not an overgrown teenager who has to be told to pick up his socks. Do you understand the difference?
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
I dont think anyone is offering advice on teenager strategy lol.
So these guys, after all their work on the sub are still just useless guys who punch a clock? I find it hard to believe they aren't doing more than the average dad watching football in his man cavr
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
At the risk of sounding like the "Five Love Languages" guy, "all their work" only counts if it's something the wife values. Going to the gym only matters if she's turned on by hard bodies. (A lot of us really don't GAF and would view that time as better spent elsewhere.) It's like learning a foreign language, say for instance Spanish -- if your wife speaks Spanish, or if you're planning to vacation in a Spanish-speaking locale, she may be impressed by your effort. If, however, no one around you speaks Spanish and you're not going anywhere, she's likely to wonder, "Why is he wasting all of this time and energy learning Spanish?"
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I'm sure most women like attractive Bodies.
And for those that don't, they know other women do, I'm. Guessing if that's all they did, they would have been absorbed by /r/bodybuilding by now
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
If you were a shredded studmuffin when you met your wife and you've since turned to shit, lifting may help you. If your wife is a yoga bunny and very into fitness herself, ditto.
If your wife fell in love with you when you were just an average dude, then clearly it doesn't take a muscular body to turn her on. No?
Depends. I know some girls want something easy. Very safe if no one wants her man, plus he's such a good dad etc.
Of course, the guys I've worked with who were like this never really got laid, and still don't... Unless she wants another kid
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Ex MRP guy. They'd tell you that you are using red knowledge for blue pill ends.
Why did you leave? Tired of hearing about how Persaeus isn’t happy no matter how much sex he gets? Or listening to weakandsensetive pretend to be a tough guy? Or BPP and his zaniness? Scared off by the paunchy and pasty redpillcoach? Not many bright spots there.
[–]planejaneThree Trench Coats in a Trench Coat.3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Redpillcoach is most likely a sockpuppet for BPP.
Him an others there are still trying to get women to do his job for him. He wants women to love him. He is incapable of doing it for himself.
No body wants to be honest. Thus they will never be the mental point of origin Rollo writes about.
One of the mods spoke of not having sex with his wife for five god damn ed YEARS. How that isn't an immediate divorce is beyond me.
But yes. I left because they seem to only want to manage their misery.
Were that 5 yars prior to mrp or is that a current situation? Did he have affairs during that time?
[–]Idunnowhy21 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Why are exMRP
[–]carefreevermillionLook at me. I'm the Chad now.2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think RP Christians are probably the most positive red pillers.
[–]AlexDr0ps1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
A man marrying a woman means he is already forfeiting his full potential to be as alpha as possible. TRP knows this and generally the advice there is to not get married because there really is no benefit. MRP men adopt some beta behavior because alpha behavior does not align with a long term relationship.
TRP preaches alpha over everything, MRP preaches core alpha values but beta behavior to make the marriage work.
[–]BisquitBill 1 points1 points1 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This seems evidential in the different approaches between TRP and MRP philosophies.
Wonder how long it took you to come up with that phrase.
[–]PPD-AngelIncel Ban Count: 9[M] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Be civil
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link
MRP is the application of red pill knowledge within a blue pill paradigm. It will improve a relationship but is foundationally irreconcilable.
There is a reason why dread level 10 is used so frequently.
You miss the point. If a person you live with doesn’t want to have sex with you, the problem is you. Why are you so different?l from them? You cheat on your gf if I recall correctly.
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I do not cheat, I am free to roam. I don't have any interest in sneaking around though, I try to put it under our umbrella. There's rarely time for it.
If a person you live with doesn’t want to have sex with you, the problem is you.
Sure. But MRP says "these things work exactly the same as TRP." This is false. Theory is clear, they're not entirely compatible. MRP worked to its end is to convert your LTR to a STR who agrees to be your LTR, a one side open.
That's what I'm in, all to theory. And even then, if you understand it, you're only power neutral. Women hold strong covert control of a relationship when it's "egalitarian." And still have control even in "tradcon."
Basically if you give the male every card of the deck, and the only card she has is that men compete for her, you're at best at a draw. She has the wildcard.
Why are you so different from them?
They believe that there are no theory differences between the two camps, yet such a thing isn't true. I broke down the theory but they deleted the post.
Lots of pragmatic advice there, but I don't understand the leadership structure. I look up to the senior ECs at TRP, they are really, really, smart guys that have this stuff down. I feel privileged to be an EC and having the opportunity to exchange notes with some of the most knowledgeable men on the planet in terms of male female interactions.
I am free to roam.
Oh so your SO knows? That’s good!
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
knows
Tolerates
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
"Dread level 10" (cheating) is used so frequently because MRP encourages men to make superficial changes to their appearance which are unlikely to impress their wives, but may serve to attract strangers who don't realize the guy is simply LARPing masculinity. So the slightly-better-looking, sex-starved, validation-seeking MRPer meets a prospective affair partner ... what do you think happens next? (I'll make popcorn.)
That is the usually trajectory in MRP.
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
Consult TRPs "men aren't happy" by U/archwinger.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Link?
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/27dzrm/men_are_not_happy/
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
Shouldn't that be, "Men aren't haaappy?" lol
Look, I'm a big believer in getting what you want out of life. If your current relationship isn't working for you (generic "you"), change it -- or attempt to change it -- and/or move on. I don't think MRP contains a very good formula for fixing relationships; it's more likely to lead men to cheat, which doesn't really solve their base problem, but only complicates it.
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Here's the thing, the men that do this do get what they want. And the reason why this happens, is because 9 times out of 10, the women involved don't respond to reason.
The way I've put it is this.
MRP is sort of a gambit until level 10. Women instinctually understand the power they have in the SMP and so MRP is basically the guy saying to her "I'm going to rob your bank tonight."
But she knows it's a toy gun. So he shows up, and she goes "oh, I'm sooooo scared mr. bad man."
So then he says "I'm bringing a real gun next time."
So he shows up and she says "I'm sooooo scared."
He shoots a teller.
She doesn't flinch.
Then finally he lights the place on fire.
She stays unmoved.
Then she realizes she's on fire, and begs him to put her out.
And you know what? The majority of these guys are upstanding men, they care about their wives, they want to make them happy. But it doesn't work that way. Women just don't respond to that rational idea of love that is peddled.
Almost none of the guys that go to MRP do so because they want to end up being that kind of man, myself included. But eventually you realize, that's just how it is.
Most of the time these women are cheating on their husbands anyway. Or at the very least they are dead bedroomed.
So what do they have to lose? Someone making them miserable, who emasculates them and makes them want to kill themselves?
The guys in these forums realize they have real power, the only thing they have to discard is their belief of morality in the SMP.
To live life on their terms, rather than being the plow horses that they're groomed for.
If you'd like, you can read about this more in depth in the post pinned in my profile called "Death of a plow horse." Which is a meta POV of this breaking bad of moral compass in a man.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
Here's the thing, the men that do this do get what they want.
From what I've seen, MRP generally leads to the husband cheating, and/or the marriage breaking up. Now, you could argue that traditional counseling doesn't save many marriages either, and I'm sure that's the case. Probably once a marriage has degenerated to dead-bedroom level, it's unlikely to be resurrected -- there's just too much water under the bridge.
I've noticed that many, if not most, of the guys on MRP have stay-at-home wives, and I don't think that's coincidental. I'd guess that most women who have the means to leave such marriages do. Dead bedrooms occur when the wife is really done with her husband but can't afford to leave him.
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Dead bedrooms are an arousal issue.
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
How can it lead them to cheating is the wife is fucking enthusiastically and often?
It makes no sense. If they want more sex, why does wife still not?
Several of the MRPers claim that lack of sex isn't an issue in their marriages but they still cat around because they like the variety. I wouldn't settle for that sort of arrangement myself, but it's possible some women don't mind or, perhaps, feel compelled to accept it (no job skills, young kids, etc.).
Man, I wish people provided links for this stuff. People in here have cited sources that say the oppositte of what they assert so often.
Though it sounds like a different group than what everyone's talking about. Guys in deadbedrooms don't seem the type to want variety, any more than incels grieve about notch counts
[–]ElectronicReport1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Here's an example of a guy who expresses no issue with his marriage but still sneaks around on his wife:
Sounded like the wife in on board. Am I missing something, or this this just a swinger couple
[–]angels_fan 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I honestly don't know where you get that most merps cheat on their wives??
We don't judge men that want to do this, but it's really rare.
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I dunno; by reading the MRP forums, maybe?
Even the ones who aren't having full-blown affairs are engaging in Adultery Lite, i.e., "catch and release," flirting and getting phone numbers from strange women. How long until, in a moment of weakness -- perhaps he's just had a fight with his wife, and is especially thirsty for some female validation -- a guy decides to follow up on one of those contacts? That's how affairs start.
[–]angels_fan1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's fair.
I'm a big believer is passive dread, but active dread is just straight up abuse.
And you're right. It starts with an innocent flirty encounter, then a number, then how long until you get ballsy enough to act?
[–]Willow-girl2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yup. And the slippery slope is made even slippery-er when you have a forum full of like-minded men encouraging you to "Do iiiiiiiiit!"
I suppose we read two different mrps, because your sahm observation didnt match mine at all.
[–]wekacuckstupid buggy bot0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
blue pill paradigm
Why does blue pull object to it then?
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
There's too many to list without making this a serious post in itself.
But the biggest objection isn't really an objection so much as a disagreement.
More or less my n(AWALT) post, which is that women are not and can not be self aware to these processes. This is a design feature of evolution. So all women believe they are exempt from the principles in both TRP and the process of dread and the like in MRP.
Then suddenly they're sharing their men when years earlier they were threatening to divorce them for a dirty dish. Which is another concept BPs disagree with.
Lastly, TRP itself isn't' entirely self aware to this, but the posts in PPD are actually very accurate to the selection mechanics and way relationships do work within a LTR. Blue pill is best thought of as LTR norms.
TRP subverts the control mechanisms women have and the incongruencies in application men have within LTRs and STRs, but TRP as a system advocates STRs because an actual understanding of the content can only create that outcome.
The only LTR that works from a theory perspective is what me, CAD and some other posters do or advocate for. That is naked application of red pill theory, put through Mark Manson's lens.
MRP is in my opinion, just a way to buy time or reverse some of the damage and put the male back into a proper position. But worked to its end, a LTR put through TRP principles would hardly be recognized by blue pill adherents.
Such a relationship would be considered egregiously abusive. The dispute then is whether calling these things traumatic bonding, emotional manipulation, etc etc are ways to indoctrinate men to accept male disposability, when such a things are innate to the intersexual power exchange.
I believe this is true and is mirrored in archetypical understandings of female male interaction ideals, which is more or less, a monster she has somewhat tamed.
While PPD is right in selection, their failing is not being self aware to the results of such pairings. The flip side of the accurate understanding of the results, are men who land in TRP after the women they're with are no longer aroused by the men they've suboptimally selected for, prioritizing control, for the purpose of having a mate to help raise children (select for nurturing, income, against jawline etc).
Love for love's sake dictates that the good man, who loves his children gets the wife who loves him forever. Practice shows instead, he trends towards a dead bedroom and a divorce. Which is why such a thing is a trope at this point.
To invert this is to disregard all these things and compete in a way that she will without self awareness claim is false, but facta non verba, she'll tolerate or prefer.
[–]wekacuckstupid buggy bot0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
Well, I think this is really going to depend on what you call "blue pill paradigm" and how you arrive at it. The pills are defined in terms of power dynamics but there are two perspectives for defining them and you are a little lose about sliding between the two definitions so I'm going to take some time to lay out why I think what you've written is inconsistent.
The only paradigm that is actually defined by the red pill is "swallowing the pill". In terms of power dynamics swallowing the pill means: rejecting female domination of men AND accepting male domination of women. The necessity of "and" and not "or" in this is that people who reject female domination of men but do not also accept male domination of women are labeled "failed unplugging", "choking on the pill", "purple pill", etc. Red pill defines blue pill as female domination of men.
So when you're talking about "purple pill" being "red pill aware within a blue pill paradigm" what you're talking about are guys who know about red pill and yet somehow embrace female domination of men. MRP does not do this at all. It's utter nonsense.
And so you've now listed a bunch of stuff talking about female domination of men, none of which is even relevant to MRP or MRP's goals.
Gives the male control over the relationship, when such a thing conflicts with the innate design of modern pairing (men compete, women choose, women select for controllable mates with suboptimal attraction) Gives credence to the concept that women are able to be systemized (and not all unique and special). Gives credence to the ideas that we are biologically not rationally driven. Allows men to exploit biological predispositions women have to engage in behavior that is considered "abusive" (because it violates the free pairing principles of competition and selection) Disputes the concept of "love for love's sake"
This is all about female domination of men. None of this is MRP.
blue pill adherents
Again, people who identify as blue pill reject male domination of women. Nothing more. Most people who identify as "blue pill" completely reject this winner/loser framing altogether and believe in a cooperative paradigm. You seem to constantly motte and bailey by pushing male domination of women and defending rejection of female domination without acknowledging that neither of those are dominant paradigms.
Manson is purple and was purged from the TRP sidebar for being purple in one of RPS fits of rage a few years ago (although it has crept back into the recesses of the wiki and it's not something the ECs/mods seem to be waging war over lately).
Well to be clear you asked what the conflict between the blue pill and MRP is. Which is what I answered. So roughly speaking, you're asking what the meta conflict is between the average male in a LTR *and the teaching of red pill awareness. Red pill awareness is built into MRP, but you're trying to act as if blue pill readers are going to see only the delta between the two camps, not so. That's where they would object to MRP, the points I listed.
The debate you want to have is my conflict with MRP and that's fine.
And to be fair, the primary conflict blue pill readers have with MRP seems to be their unwillingness to take a moral position against cheating. The conflict we're having is more or less as theory snobs. All other lay people stop at the dread 10 debate.
And that being said, such a thing isn't male domination of females. It is, at best, power neutral.
Women, at nearly all points of the relationship hold penultimate power. That is more or less our bank robbery discussion, and Jack10heart's critique of MRP, which is more or less "I'm not going to the gym at 10pm because I'm mad." The difference between TRP & MRP is that MRP must compete within the LTR paradigm before around dread level 10.
I also outline this in the post I made which resolved itself as being two separate game theory applications. TRP recognizes that the game has one iteration, honestly, and operates in that frame. It ends when she doesn't want to fuck you proper (arousal issue). MRP pretends that the game has one iteration, but it has multiple. Some observation, different way of recognizing it. She stops fucking you proper and then you do a monkey dance to get back to 80% of how she used to fuck you. Probably.
embrace female domination of men. MRP does not do this at all. It's utter nonsense.
MRP has only 3 variations that I've seen.
Schema & Awareness
At MRP, the rules of the game still apply, more or less, until around dread level 10.
Now don't get me wrong, for a lot of marriages, this is okay. If the woman involved hasn't really been a party girl, has strong social and family support, this might bring a soft man into a good spot and it go swimmingly.
This is where you can say that MRP "doesn't need to accept male domination of women." But when a woman stops responding to the escalation of dread or continues her facta non verba protocol, then eventually the game needs to be ended and restarted under new rules.
That is my objection. The way you play the game inherently means that men function as useful idiots. That if you remove the commitment you offer, likely, there are many other more viscerally attractive men to slot in for a STR.
Women get much more attractive men in STRs. As in 2 points higher. So no matter how you slice it, if you're in a LTR, unless you're just a natural that beta slid, you're her puppet unless you burn down the bank and hold her hostage. Then you're both equally as disposable. That's power neutral.
You learn how much power women have if you ever go this deep, they have a lot.
You like to leverage your walk out argument here. That's fine. It's a healthy way to look at the SMP. But what I don't understand is how a man can hold that value and also hold feminist values.
I could hold those values disingenuously and practice dark beta game, but I don't get it otherwise.
You seem to constantly motte and bailey by pushing male domination of women and defending rejection of female domination without acknowledging that neither of those are dominant paradigms.
I've been pretty clear in saying, that even when men completely flip it on its head they are still power neutral. Men are disposable in all areas except fatherhood. Literally no man, worth being in a sexual relationship with, will treat another man's children as his own. In a LTR or STR, there's always a bigger, better, deal. It's innate to a woman's design to see it that way, even if he isn't better. That's what pair bonding chemicals are for. Same reason that men fall in love with strippers and whores.
The reason why I ultimately reject MRP is because up until the 3rd iteration style, men are playing an elaborate make believe game with themselves and their partners, more often than not. Most of these men are not okay with losing their partner, and therefor, remain in their frame. My objection to this is that it is sub optimal for arousal.
And the biggest lesson men learn from TRP is tingles uber ales.
So that being said, your LTR should be structured in that way. Which means that you reject being her useful idiot, puppet or dancing monkey. You call this "cooperating" but that's not at all what that words means.
A woman is not capable of cooperating in the way that men understand such a thing. Her view of the world is so distorted, that what men think is cooperating is considered "playing hardball."
You can play hardball with her, and approximate "cooperating" but ultimately you're still just the most controllable, sub-optimally arousing male.
It makes sense from a male perspective, it's a strong bargain and a good system for men who still require morality in their relationships.
Which I would agree with. It only functions on one point correctly, a way to regulate the level of vulnerability one shows in a relationship. It solves the static problem of "what is alpha" (which is actually, what is attractive behavior) in a dynamic way. Which is, you do you. Obviously you have to be mindful of how incongruent you are to attractive behavior, but if you decided you wanted to share struggles at work with her, because you felt it was the right thing to do, and you're prepared for her to dry up on you, then so be it. It's a valuable heuristic on outcome independence, and also aligns with MRP values in "stay plan and go plan are the same."
Otherwise you end up with an endless debate of what things are or are not attractive, when ultimately, you should be within your own frame. Just that over time, your frame should become mostly congruent to what she finds attractive.
Otherwise you end up MGTOW or incel, even if you're "in your frame."
You do you and share your weaknesses and play video games competitively, don't want to be "too much of a jerk" and then the heuristic doesn't matter.
It mostly serves guys like me that have to find spots to dial it down a notch. I rarely get shit tested anymore, but I have to pass comfort tests multiple times a day.
[–]wekacuckstupid buggy bot0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
No, I don't think you're following. If you're saying that MRP is blue pill paradigm, you have to ask what's blue pill about it and MRP goals are certainly not anything related to female supremacy, female subjugation of men. wife worship, or male sacrafice. Those just aren't the MRP goals of literally anything. The things you're saying people object to are all red pill things. It's more than awareness of red pill. And it's not blue pill goals. (And certainly cheating is not a blue pill goal.)
OPs question was "MRP vs TRP" so the discussion is pretty much exactly on topic and not some tangent because you're more TRP and I'm more MRP.
Not sure which jack10's comment you're talking about but that sound's fairly incorrect particularly given the MRP phase model he eventually developed. That sounds more like jack10's critique of guys who aren't MRPing correctly, not a critique of the MRP plan. Which is sort of what you've described but not understood in laying out your three variations. There is only one variation:
MRP has only 3 variations that I've seen. Compete within her LTR schema naively (BP-BP) Where a man just starts becoming more attractive. Compete within her LTR schema informed (RP-BP) Where a man starts to game, and reject her frame. But is ultimately still within the multiple iteration long game pretending to be a STR candidate. Reject her LTR schema and operate your LTR under the STR schema (RP-RP) This is 100% red pill compatible so far as I can understand. (CAD program and the like)
Compete within her LTR schema naively (BP-BP) Where a man just starts becoming more attractive.
Compete within her LTR schema informed (RP-BP) Where a man starts to game, and reject her frame. But is ultimately still within the multiple iteration long game pretending to be a STR candidate.
Reject her LTR schema and operate your LTR under the STR schema (RP-RP) This is 100% red pill compatible so far as I can understand. (CAD program and the like)
I think you've completely misunderstood then. What you're seeing is the basic progression of the early dread levels:
man just starts becoming more attractive man starts to game, and reject her frame operate in your own frame
man just starts becoming more attractive
man starts to game, and reject her frame
operate in your own frame
This is the only accepted MRP variation there are no alternates. It's shorthanded as "the go plan is the same as the stay plan". No idea where you're thinking those others are even remotely accepted as endpoints. Those other things you've mentioned aren't variations they are steps of the same plan. If the end goal is what you call "100% red pill compatible" how on earth can you call it a "blue pill paradigm"?
The reason why I ultimately reject MRP is because up until the 3rd iteration style
... again see above. You're rejecting strawmen.
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
If you're saying that MRP is blue pill paradigm,
"Blue pill paradigm" is analogous to long term relationship. More specifically, a relationship which operates under the principles of multiple iterative structure. Where power is held by the female.
Now you're asking me to off the cuff define something pretty hard to define, but that's pretty good for now, I'll let you poke at that for a while.
If the end goal is what you call "100% red pill compatible" how on earth can you call it a "blue pill paradigm"?
TRP compatibility is analogous to optimally structured for arousal.
MRP solves this problem by imitating a short term relationship. What CAD and the like to is restructure it into a single iteration, STR that imitates a LTR.
The duty of performance is shared in that case. Until that, a woman always holds total control, and anything else is a farce.
I mean what gives you power in a LTR with a woman?
If you have enough power, your selling yourself short not spinning plates. If you don't have enough power, the conversion to a STR style relationship would end your LTR (meaning you're sub-optimally structured).
And once you reach that level of relationship power, I don't see why you'd want to remain in a LTR with a woman who didn't appreciate you for what she asked for.
That's where we differ certainly. MRP camp loves to hang themselves over the fact they were incongruent, and grew into "real men." That doesn't make what they did wrong. That's one other point I can't stand at MRP.
The man who became the plow horse did nothing wrong except trust the woman he was with.
I can't understand how these guys stay in a marriage they put back together after seeing who the women they are with really are. That's a point we can't agree on.
At TRP we share this view and can't understand your view. What are women really brining you in this relationship? Why aren't you spinning plates?
And if you don't want to spin, why aren't you replacing her?
Unless you restructure it in your favor, it's just onitis. It's a variation of the plow horse.
So far as I can see it, you hang up the role of the plow horse and take the role of the king. And then if that doesn't work, you leave your kingdom and let her sort it out.
So far as I see it, you're just avoiding what was the end of your game and spinning it as the next iteration. IMO, your relationship must be restarted in male optimal structure, to become even power neutral, after she becomes incongruent to the relationship and is unable to fix whatever issues come from this or remain naive and good natured enough for it to fix itself.
Once she exerts leverage in the way of denying sex, hard nos, flirting etc. All the stuff MRP knows well, your marriage as you knew it was over. The theory just doesn't work.
It's pragmatic yes, but it still functions under blue pill value systems. Nearly 100% of the marriages at MRP have failed, they just lack the divorce papers. They're on life support. They're reattaching legs and arms etc. And why?
Because of the court system, family system, kids, lack of options etc etc
All blue pill stuff. That's why TRP is against all these things and why it's been such a challenge to construct a way to have children in the framework.
At TRP, she stops responding to you, starts the facta non verba, you give her the boot and replace her. At MRP you blame yourself.
When failure is a feature, not a flaw with women. It's literally constructing a system around a person where failure is a design feature.
That is blue pill.
You can say the stay and go plan are the same, but why are you with the same woman that disrespected you? And every women who doesn't naively pillage on, or have enough good nature to let the issue fix itself is disrespecting you.
And worse, on her terms that you agree to.
I just can't see it man, I literally can not see what you see.
What men see at MRP as "failure in themselves" we see as the inherent design at women, undeserving of respect. We understand it, but refuse to build a long term relationship that isn't giving us everything we want on top of it.
Since it's a house of cards and all that.
IDK where we're missing each other, I really can't understand or see what you see.
Normally I can see clearly, but I guess we can keep at it till it becomes clear.
Can you try and talk about the delta between what you see as TRP and MRP? Without blue pill specifically?
"Blue pill paradigm" is analogous to long term relationship.
OK so let's back out the disagreement about the definition of red pill and blue pill for a moment and we can restate your original answer to OP about the difference between TRP and MRP as:
MRP is the application of red pill knowledge within a blue pill paradigmLTR
I completely agree with that as it's obvious, so this is where I'm going to start. I would summarize the difference between TRP and MRP this way:
TRP is red pill aware STR
MRP is red pill aware LTR
What you seem to be doing is confusing prescriptive "red pill aware STR" advice for the "red pill knowledge" it's derived from. You seem to do this a lot--take a conclusion derived from red pill knowledge and substitute the conclusion for the source knowledge. Obviously STR and LTR are different contexts and adapted strategies will be required to achieve optimal results for each of those strategies.
Strategies emerge from tactics. In STR, "Next!" is an easy tactic with little or no risk or damage to the goal of STR, so optimal strategies will employ it freely. Within LTR, "Next!" is far costlier to both participants so optimal strategies are more guarded and nuanced about deploying it. This has nothing to do with the nature of women, it's just reality and obvious to everyone. This is even more true with kids and marriage involved. But "Next!" and the credible threat of "Next!" (i.e. Dread) are extremely powerful and central to both MRP and TRP strategies.
BP gets their panties in a bunch about dread but it's also pretty obvious and common sense. Everyone fears losing things they want. The greater the desire, the greater the fear of loss. Desire and dread are two sides of the same coin that cannot exist without each other. Seeking a desirable partner is identical to seeking dread. Because they're the same thing.
Obviously tolerance for dread in an STR is higher than tolerance for dread in an LTR. So women (and men) seek to tame dread to manageable levels. Everyone wants the most desirable person they can tolerate. This is what you've sort of begun to understand with your idea that women select controllable men for LTR--uncontrollable men ooze dread and controllable men fit the bill nicely. I don't agree with the protector vs provider thing, it's easily explained entirely by comfort with the attraction/dread duality. And of course men do exactly the same thing in their own analogous ways.
When women commit their youth and bodies to an LTR, they are far more sensitive to dread. This is why they prefer the safe harbor of marriage for committing their bodies to a man. Marriage is a security blanket that allows them to tolerate higher dread. Unfortunately, the reduction of dread brought by commitment is a curse for what men want, as you know. One obvious solution to maintain a dread-enriched environment is to not enter LTR and not to enter marriage. This maintains an effortless level of dread and keeps women "on their toes" where we want them and that's what TRP emphasizes.
But it's a mistake to assume that's the only solution to the problem. It's nice that your approach gives you the results you desire, but it's presumptuous for you to make assumptions about the desires of other men. We all have our own goals and standards. You cannot optimize my life anymore than I can optimize yours. At its best MRP fundamentally understands we're all on our own doing our own things swapping notes. It's not some movement or ideology the way TRP tries to be in its hilarious way.
That seems like a fundamentally flawed perspective. Every LTR was an STR at some point. In fact if you keep your eyes open you will notice that a lot of "normie" advice is some tactical variation of the "rewind your LTR to STR stage" strategy.
Well I prefer the Shahryar and Scheherazade model. But I literally don't give a shit what the courts do or don't do, the law will do whatever it wants to do. Iacta alea est, etc.
Because people earn disrespect. Are you expecting a manhood participation trophy?
That's because you're clearly anger phase and haven't accepted the uncomfortable truths or learned to do anything except react to them.
For instance, I think it's pretty interesting you keep bringing up CAD as the pinnacle of what TRP has to offer for LTR or red pilled marriage while dismissing MRP marriages as "just lacking the divorce papers". You really should actually understand CAD and the war he waged against jack10 (which is admittedly very difficult because all of the discussions where jack10 unraveled his lies and bullshit were deleted and have been destroyed). CAD and his wife hate each other.
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[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
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[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girl1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ITouchMyselfAtNight1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Idunnowhy24 points5 points6 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression3 points4 points5 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie2 points3 points4 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression4 points5 points6 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]aznphenix2 points3 points4 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]angels_fan 1 point2 points3 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]aznphenix2 points3 points4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]angels_fan 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]aznphenix2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]redpillrobert 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Superfluous97Student of Critical Thinking0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP Has The Tools0 points1 point2 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression4 points5 points6 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression1 point2 points3 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie2 points3 points4 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]Yahuhuhuh 1 points1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]planejaneThree Trench Coats in a Trench Coat.3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]FairlyNaiveRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Idunnowhy21 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]carefreevermillionLook at me. I'm the Chad now.2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]AlexDr0ps1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]BisquitBill 1 points1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]PPD-AngelIncel Ban Count: 9[M] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled-1 points0 points1 point (31 children) | Copy Link
[–]Yahuhuhuh 1 points1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Yahuhuhuh 1 points1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled-1 points0 points1 point (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression3 points4 points5 points (18 children) | Copy Link
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled1 point2 points3 points (17 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression0 points1 point2 points (16 children) | Copy Link
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled0 points1 point2 points (14 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression2 points3 points4 points (13 children) | Copy Link
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled2 points3 points4 points (12 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression1 point2 points3 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression1 point2 points3 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]paccount1121 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ElectronicReport1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]paccount1121 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]angels_fan 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]angels_fan1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Willow-girl2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]FairlyNaiveRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]wekacuckstupid buggy bot0 points1 point2 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled1 point2 points3 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]wekacuckstupid buggy bot0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]wekacuckstupid buggy bot0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]wekacuckstupid buggy bot0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link