Sexual selection and intelligence. Men manipulating women into sex = good.

sublimemongrel · 2017-01-23T18:48:25+00:00

By this logic manipulating men into marriage and then divorce raping him and moving on to a "better man" = good. Under your argument, if it's favorable to the sexual imperative and reproducing with the best genes possible, any type of manipulation is "good" including cheating, cucking, hypergamy, etc.

shoup88 · 2017-01-23T18:08:47+00:00

If men are being taught how to manipulate women into sex through RP techniques, then isn't that a false marker of intelligence? If it didn't come naturally to them and they're simply following instruction, then they're not actually passing on any "superior" genes.

If anything, learned manipulation tactics lead to inferior genes being passed on, no?

haikufun · 2017-01-23T18:05:50+00:00

because the men who were better at manipulating and tricking women into sex due to higher intelligence had their genes passed on more, eventually increasing the average intelligence of the whole population.

Wouldnt overall iq be better served by people having sex with people who agree instead of being tricked? Being tricked isnt a sign of high iq.

rand_redditor2 · 2017-01-23T18:50:27+00:00

I'm sorry but this premise is flawed. I feel compelled to point out that there is evidence the Flynn effect has stopped and actually reversed in Western countries. And in Iceland "education genes" (whatever that is) are getting rarer

And the reason is supposedly that high IQ people are less likely to reproduce

"Using data from Iceland that include a substantial fraction of the population we show that individuals with high scores tend to have fewer children, mainly because they have children later in life. Consequently, the average score has been decreasing over time in the population."

Also seen among teens, especially girls less likely to have sex when high IQ

So right now at least that manipulation strategy doesn't work out all too well when it's mostly average people having all the sex and getting all the kids

4Nova · 2017-01-23T18:11:50+00:00

Because manipulation is a sexual strategy for the benefit of one party at the expense of the other. Also, deceitfulness is not equivalent to intelligence, so you'd have a lot of work to do if you wanted to show that the trait is a net positive for the species.

willyhoo · 2017-01-23T19:41:43+00:00

The idea that men were manipulating women into sex back in pre-civilization days is pretty far-fetched. You weren't just wandering around meeting random chicks at bars (or watering holes? IDK) back then. There was very limited opportunity to actually manipulate anyone, and the truth is the other elements of attraction were far more important than 'game'. You can't trick someone into thinking that you're actually a totally alpha hunter guy if you can't also prove it.

Game works (I guess) because condoms and birth control exist so women don't need to actually think about who they're having sex with.

With regards to intelligence, it's far more likely that a demonstration of intelligence (i.e. the ability to build tools, track animals, grow crops etc.) was the attractive thing and that's why it was a selected trait. Guys who couldn't demonstrate their value would be exposed very quickly.

anitapk · 2017-01-23T20:20:51+00:00

Manipulation isn't a sign of intelligence in men. Achieving things is.

IamTheWalkingMenu · 2017-01-23T18:59:54+00:00

You believe human intelligence had a paid evolution due to trickery and manipulation? What about nutrition and medicine and stuff like that.

This is one of those things that sounds smooth and believable but isn't really. Kind of like the tricky manipulative fuckboys you're talking about.

Ascimator · 2017-01-23T18:24:02+00:00

There isn't much intelligence involved in internalizing a set of dogmas to maximize your chances for casual, low-effort sex with a set of women, IMO. I'd argue it takes much more to support a stable relationship, while being able to identify the person suitable for such a relationship.

midnightvulpine · 2017-01-23T19:38:49+00:00

If you look at it from a perspective that ignores morals, sure. Not everyone does that. Personally, I consider it shitty behavior. After all, propensity towards trickery can be considered, within a society, a heavy negative. Societies don't function if the majority of the population are predisposed to doing anything to get what they want, legal or not.

damaskrose · 2017-01-23T20:36:21+00:00

It doesn't take intelligence to manipulate people. Children, pets, and salespeople do it all the time. Fuckbois are not exactly known for their intelligence.

Entropy-7 · 2017-01-23T19:43:51+00:00

Women are born manipulators because historically they could not use strength or personal resources to get what they want.

quicklogaccount · 2017-01-23T19:03:52+00:00

Whether it is good or bad is a judgment of value, but regardless, I don't think it'd work.

What is the evolutionary pressure that benefits these "intelligent" genes above others? What is giving these children greater success or impairing others?
I assume a man that "manipulated" a woman into sex won't care to provide.

You could argue that if he manipulated lots of women, he'd be adopting a sort of "R" strategy. But manipulating takes time and he'd have to compete with highly attractive men that don't need to waste such time.

DashneDK2 · 2017-01-24T01:00:50+00:00

You can't trick 21st cent. Western women into sex. If she wants it, she's not tricked.

Princeso_Bubblegum · 2017-01-23T18:43:04+00:00

Because lying is wrong.

Who the fuck taught you your morals?

stonepimpletilists · 2017-01-23T18:12:36+00:00

Life is manipulation. You can make it sound nice by calling it:

persuasion
coersion
sales
propaganda
narratives

But it is there, regardless of how you feel about it. Either use it, or don't. It's up to your moral barometer to decide how much of a zero-sum, or synergy you want to have with it.

Do you both win, or do you win at their expense? Regardless, it's still manipulation to have someone change their behavior, based on how you interact. Babies cry when they want a bottle or to be changed, women cry, nag and shame when they want men to act, and guys will be charming, use anger, or the threat of violence to do so.

All tools, all different situations. To lump it together in one 'bad' package does human interaction a disservice.

Also, its a bit circle jerky to blame it all on some caveman reasoning. I know many do it, but it's just shifting your responsibility of your actions in the world, to some kind of pseudo scientific excuse.

Humans influence other humans, own it and move on.

Tyler_Gatsby · 2017-01-23T18:11:19+00:00

Not really arguing as much as pointing out there's probably as many women manipulating men with/for sex as the other way around. Some use it as a tool to control men, like those, "honey-Do for sex"relationships I hear and read so much about, but haven't really been in.

grapesaregreat · 2017-01-23T23:58:33+00:00

This is actually sexual selection for pshychopathy and dark triad personality NOT intelligence

ifelsedowhile · 2017-01-23T18:46:22+00:00

I can't be 100% straightforward with women: asking them to let me insert my penis in their vagina doesn't work so I need to resort to other strategies and a bit of manipulation is always involved.

AutoModerator · 2017-01-23T18:01:18+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair, just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

kkohl98 · 2017-01-23T18:13:11+00:00

I could have sworn I read somewhere that the average intelligence has dropped by a bit since the "renaissance", I need to find that data...

FortunateBum · 2017-01-24T01:46:13+00:00

Define "manipulation". I believe it necessarily implies deceit or deception, lying of course. Seduction is not manipulation. Most seduction, including red pill techniques, does not involve manipulation. This is a misunderstanding.

Seduction (or "red pill") is about signaling your status to women. A nice car is one of the most reliable seduction/status signals which is why it works so well. Women trade sex for resources. Men want sex. Women want resources for their offspring. This is the basis of everything.

When men signal resources they don't have or women signal they're willing to have sex and they don't, then yeah, there's some manipulation involved. This is where the complaining comes in. Yes, people get tricked. Women find that men don't have status/resources they claimed to have, or don't want to share them, and men find that women aren't giving in to sex in spite of resources being given.

despisedlove2 · 2017-01-24T02:17:42+00:00

BS.

It tends to be the betas who are smarter, better educated and more socially productive.

If anything, women's mating choices tend to chase the dark triad alphas, which is a holdover from times millions of years ago when being an alpha was an evolutionary advantage.

Why do you think every society that has been more obsequious towards its women's real choices has suffered a reduction in birth rates, increase in crime and social problems, demographic collapse and decline?

Betas create and maintain societies. Alphas and women free to express their natural inclination for them destroy them.

Meshakhad · 2017-01-24T05:38:34+00:00

Factually, you are correct. However, manipulating people into sex is immoral.

gavinok · 2017-01-24T05:40:01+00:00

Entirely false.

Your talking about social skills, not intelligence.

The dumb jock on the football team in college is much better at manipulating women into bed than the computer science major that has a fulltime offer at Google, but the CS majors is 1000's of times smarter.

-sick_sad_world- · 2017-01-24T12:01:27+00:00

Just because volcanoes are Earth's natural lava-spitters, it doesn't mean we should stand right underneath them and savor the fine delights of being burned alive by molten rock.

That if you even have a sound scientific evidence for saying we're manipulative beings, since that statement is just as solid as an egg-vs-chicken debate, if anything. You don't even have proof that "manipulative" men are smarter. By all means, they show qualities we find in sociopaths who lack empathy and emotional intelligence, and they aren't exactly really good at math either. The genes we'd be passing on would be those devoid of empathy, and that's just sick.

Title	Sexual selection and intelligence. Men manipulating women into sex = good.
Author	theiamsamurai
Upvotes	11
Comments	240
Date	January 23, 2017 6:01 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/5pqf6t/sexual_selection_and_intelligence_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/sexual-selection-and-intelligence-men-manipulating.270463 https://theredarchive.com/post/270463

Comments