"We've been lied to" stories.

exit_sandman · 2017-01-18T13:20:18+00:00

Have anyone else notice something similar?

Yes, to some extent. Most of my peers (especially those with a better education) were romantics when younger (in no small part because it was drilled into their heads that they just had to be), but after they fell on their faces with that mindset, a fair number of them is now a lot more comfortable with a fun-oriented and casual romantic lifestyle than they were in their 20s.

The irony is that the whole "be romantic, be reliable, grow up, be a good beta"-propaganda female complaints about relationships amount to is probably mostly directed at men around 30 or older; but men around 20 are far more susceptible to these messages. And the same men who, instead of trying to play the "exciting cool guy"-part that would serve them infinitely better at their age, heed that propaganda and of course fall on their face while doing so - which in turn only alienates them from that "I have to make women happy"-mindset and is actually more likely to produce exactly the outcome those complaining women were hoping to prevent with their nagging.

future_space_boobs · 2017-01-18T12:34:38+00:00

Sounds to me like you just came on too strong with the marriage and commitment thing. I knew a lot of "wanted to get married in 5 years" guys in college, and most of them did, but it wasn't how they advertised themselves or introduced themselves to potential dates. you had to kinda get to know them to figure out they were like that. bluntness is great, but too much and you sound too intense. Marriage-minded people generally (again, in my experience and this includes me) got into relationships early on in college with their future spouses but they still had fun and went to parties and whatnot. you need to find a balance... if you spend your college years playing house with your sweetheart you'll regret not partying and being dumb kids when it was socially sanctioned. you can have a serious relationship and not participate in hookup culture (hell, you can even not drink) and still partake in the fun stuff that phase of life has to offer.

LewisCross · 2017-01-18T14:52:34+00:00

It wasn't just Disney and media. It wasn't just parents. It was the women themselves. It was "we don't really like those guys. They're hot, sure; and we fuck them, sure; but we hate them. They're assholes. We really like nice guys. Guys like you.^{butonlysomedayiamnevergoingtofuckyounonotever"}

drok007 · 2017-01-18T12:37:29+00:00

I don't think that is it either. It's that they tell you, you don't want to be Chad, Chad is evil. Then they tell you you want to be BB, that is ideal and who wins in the end.

This all rests on the premise that listening to women is a good idea as a man. It's not, although when you are very young this can be confusing.

In reality, Chad is not an asshole, he is a pretty cool guy. You can also be both Chad and still settle down later.

GroovyEFS · 2017-01-18T11:57:40+00:00

I tend to generally agree with /u/biggerdthanyou on this issue: if anything the media shows you that being the stereotypical omega or beta makes you fail and being a bad boy rebel is super cool.

All the superhero shit we grew up on is badass vigilantes beating criminals up for example, and as for the Disney argument, since when were Disney films aimed at boys? Lmao! Stop watching girly shit then acting surprised at how girly it is ffs!

The main lie I do agree is a real issue is the whole "just be yourself" platitude because it is something most parents and authority figures repeat ad infinitum to impressionable kids as they grow up. Sure the blues make the argument that you should learn it's not true as you observe reality, but that misses the point. These people are idealists who have had their ideals confirmed to them by people they trust to teach them how the world works.

I'm pretty thankful that even from an early age my mum was very realistic rather than idealistic and just said yes you do have to change yourself to be successful throughout life, learn to deal with it. But most people do not get that treatment, and to this day my dad is extremely idealistic and will peddle just be yourself cuz he actually believes it. Of course he got super lucky in life without having to make much effort, so for him it's good advice, but that's kind of like a lottery winner saying getting rich is easy just buy a ticket.

And no most men will not go MGTOW. However, marriage rates will continue to fall and cohabitation will continue to increase. Most guys are still gonna seek relationships, but marriage is fast becoming an old fashioned tradition we as a culture are losing interest in.

disposable_pants · 2017-01-18T13:11:59+00:00

I thought that traits like financial stability, ambition, responsibility, low n (yes low n for men), ability to find compromise and loyalty are valued in marriage and muscle, clothes, wit, exciting lifestyle, carpe diem attitude and disrespect to rules are valued for short term fun.

The beta traits on this list are emphasized as extremely important to relationships, and relationships are emphasized as far more desirable than "short term fun". Guys might understand that alpha traits are desirable to some extent; but the full extent to which they are desired is what's downplayed.

KoennonTiger · 2017-01-18T14:43:31+00:00

It sounds like we had some similar experiences. Growing up I put huge amounts of effort into being a good beta father material type of guy. I worked very hard, volunteered all over the map, and had a full time job throughout all of college. I had zero game though and only ended up with girlfriends because girls would actually ask me out due to my awesome genetics and the fact that I got into lifting in high school for wrestling. But those girls would always cheat, and always cheat with compete losers. It took me a long time to figure out what those guys were actually bringing.

By age 20 I started asking girls out myself at university. We would go on dates, I would demonstrate my beta traits and solid father material traits and these girls would regal me with stories of fucking bad boy losers and tell me to keep being me and eventually a girl would want me. Awesome!

I ended up in another LTR from another girl who asked me out but I knew something was wrong. Deep down I knew. She would make all these demands from me and started to meter out sex like it was a way to control me. The sex wasn't because her gash was gushing and she actually wanted my seed inside. That very girl had some kind of hamster breakdown and called me on my birthday to tell me all about getting used hard at age eighteen by a Chad, hilariously enough that guy was the age I am today, and how she did anything and everything for him and he still dumped her. Clear alpha widow. Guy was a total utter loser as well, going nowhere. But she did anything for him. That sorta broke something inside me and I checked out of the relationship and started hunting for other girls, not consciously, but that's what happened. And lo and behold during the time I was at a very low point and dgaf about anything, and was cheating on my gf, I had a bunch of girls (more attractive than the girls of my past as well) interested. I got together with one of them and dumped the original alpha widowed one.

Stupidly enough over time I bought into that girls frame. Was with her for 8 years.

It wasn't until after that time that I realized there is no reason I shouldn't become the guy that girls clearly want. As demonstrated by their choices for who they spread their legs for. So I did that for a few years. I want a family though so I took a year of being single to make myself into solid father material again. Thank God I had those years of spinning plates as a bad boy loser myself though. Really helps take women off the pedastal and shows me just how low you will go. You can never look at women the same after some of the degrading shit I did to them on purpose just to see what they did and they liked it. Also I no longer care if a girl cheats or leaves. In fact it's good for me. It allows me to go fuck some other girls. Once you can replace any girl at pretty much any time and you know it, and once you get to my age with these skills, you have the power.

speltspelt · 2017-01-18T14:46:46+00:00

Guys in college distinctly aren't financially stable, haven't in most cases demonstrated responsibility, and have often never had to navigate a real world job market. A lot of them will crash and burn. In many cases they haven't even decided what city they'll end up living in.

KV-n · 2017-01-18T19:21:55+00:00

i dont understand why when it comes to any discussion about bp programming here on PPD, it revolves around the notion "media program guys to be blue betas" when IME the programming is done much more from real life sources with the biggest one being by FAR school, where boys are so feminized that we can easily call it gendercide.

Especially elementary school is a complete fuck up in this regard because until HS all the teachers are women. Masculine behaviour of aggression, dominance, leadership, disobedience to authority, DGAF etc is shamed and outright punished resulting in maybe 1/10th to 1/6th of boys being manly at ~15. Then certain (over)correction comes with "teenage rebel phase", especially with drinking, smoking and other drugs, but i dare say from my eksperience at least half of men still never recover.

wtknight · 2017-01-18T13:16:19+00:00

You cite Disney. However, the current SMP isn't exactly "child-friendly." Examples about how to comport oneself in the current SMP usually take place in one-on-one discussions between parents and children upon the reaching of puberty (and even then, many parents are clueless about the kinds of things today's kids do), not within the themes of a Disney movie. Even a mature program oriented towards teens tends to frame sex within the context of "Should I have sex with my LTR boyfriend now?" and not so much as, "What are the positives and negatives of casual sex and what precautions should I take to have it?"

If you aren't innately "sex smart," then you're likely to be deluded about the nature of the current SMP and make a lot of mistakes. I don't think it's a case of being purposely lied to or some vast conspiracy on the part of the feminist media to make men into betas. It's more about society lagging behind being able to have these kinds of discussions openly within it's media.

LewisCross · 2017-01-18T15:59:56+00:00

but I fell like there is an underexplored place where this kind of frustration is coming from that deserves to at least be worded.

The place where this comes from, for a lot of guys, is that they're told the exact wrong things.

I thought that traits like financial stability, ambition, responsibility, low n (yes low n for men), ability to find compromise and loyalty are valued in marriage

Not only that they're valued in marriage, but that they're sexually attractive to women. That women get wet for these things. Because... women said they do.

and muscle, clothes, wit, exciting lifestyle, carpe diem attitude and disrespect to rules are valued for short term fun.

Not only for short term fun; but that guys like these are assholes and are not desired.

I was unprepared to the fact that there was very little interest in settling down during college and therefore little to no demand for the first subset of traits.

I was surprised at the number of women even back in the late 80s just before hookup culture really set in, who were interested in casual sex and not so much "relationships".

I dont know what percentage of guys who claim that their lack of romantic success is due to overinvestment in "husband" qualities are just low value and find excuses for themselves,

In today's SMP, overinvestment in "husband" qualities IS low value. Low sexual value. A man like that will find a wife. But he will not get the sex he wants or needs in the frequency or quality he wants or needs.

goatismycopilot · 2017-01-18T16:21:32+00:00

Nobody lied to me as much as they did not say much. I remember my mother telling me if I got pregnant in high school she would personally strangle me which at that time in my life I am sure she would have. I also got the don't put out too early speech but the mechanics of relationships, nothing. I figured it out by observing how it went in high school and college and sharing experiences with friends. Probably I also grew up in an era of benign neglect where kids and teens had freedom and you were expected to fall on your face quite a bit and fight your own battles. I got a lot of "don't" type of advice because I grew up in a working class area and consequences were pretty obvious and it was always phrased like a disaster would fall on you. Don't date a man who fill in blank or you will end up fill in the blank terrible thing.

bala-key · 2017-01-18T19:09:17+00:00

My initial idea(that formed around high school) about the subject was that there are two types of traits that are responsible for short and long term attractiveness respectively.

My wife still insists that muscles only help men when they want to pick up women at a bar... (also: muscles only work on women who want to be picked up at bars!)

I dont want to say that there is some conspiracy to brainwash men through media into beeing a better BB

I was one of those guys whose dream was to become the uber-beta decent dude. The perfect 'husband material' with a stable career, who earns a lot of money for his family. I remember I was 16 and I already dreamed about finding the right girl that I can marry and have children with.

I honestly don't know what was the biggest influence on me growing up that led me to this mindset.

I wanted to be a good guy who doesn't drink (there was alcoholism in my family), who doesn't cheat, who respects the shit out of women and their feelings.

Even by my mid 20s I was the perfect BB. Unsurprisingly my (married) sex life was shit.

despisedlove2 · 2017-01-18T14:50:24+00:00

Yes.

MGTOW is a rising trend.

The fundamental issue is that most men tend to have a moral backbone, regardless of their SMV. Decency, loyalty, steadfastness, etc. are masculine traits.

Most women are raised devoid of any values, except the techniques to emotionally and sexually manipulate.

The men who either naturally or through training follow female traits tend to have more reliable success with women.

To the vast sea of largely amoral and opportunistic women, male values range between puzzling to quaint, but almost always exploitable.

Men need to overcome their evolutionary pressures to understand that women are very different kinds of creatures with a value system that is alien to us.

quicklogaccount · 2017-01-18T13:13:20+00:00

I guess you failed to account for the encouragement both men and women get to act against their innate drives at early childhood.

This is what makes us prone to accept the wrong models you mention, and it is why people are so resistant when RP talks about sexual strategies. The refuse to accept they are like that themselves, thus ruling out a basilar axiom to the model.

Anyway.

Have anyone else notice something similar?

Yep.

What do you think will be the ramifications of the rest catching up to the rules and values of the current smp?

I don't think they will. For various reasons, mainly progressives' mistakes on enforcing social policies and "change", people are going traditional and conservative. We're going back to Disney and social pressure to make that view forcefully realist. Trump. Le Pen in FRANCE.
Anyway. If I'm wrong and there is a catching up, we ought to face the same issues that first caused us to enforce a system that restraint our primal drives.
Seemingly, the main issue was paternity and inheritance of the wealthy. It is complicated but we might find an alternate solution that does not involve repression of primal drives now. But there might be other issues.

EchoZeroEleven · 2017-01-18T16:54:57+00:00

"We should totally get married in 5 years."

I've heard that one too. Just smile and joke about it, maybe flirt, then let them be.

Someone out there thinks you're good enough right fucking now. That's all you gotta concern yourself with.

(Not an excuse to stop self improving and being fucking awesome)

KrispyMcSockington · 2017-01-19T03:41:23+00:00

P.S. Im not a huge fan of "80% of men will go MGTOW" idea either, but I do notice a trend among my friends, that previously held fairly traditional views on family, to either become really disillusioned about it or downshift altogether. Have anyone else notice something similar? What do you think will be the ramifications of the rest catching up to the rules and values of the current smp?

Yes. Noticed this with some close friends. One guy was married and divorced before he was 30. The others felt no need to do more than earn just enough for a few drinks (or weed), games and food. Education was not high on their priority list nor was settling down. They would sometimes get into relationships (usually with crazy women) but it would not last long. One guy got a woman pregnant and committed to her but she was a nightmare: unattractive, loud and would publicly humiliate him.

One night we had met for a gaming session. The guys were having fun but near the end this dude's girlfriend drives up and starts shrieking and screaming for him to get into the car because he was out too late (like he, as an adult, could not be out after dark). He said good night and went home. A few months later they broke up. His personality changed for the better and he returned to dating casually.

These were solid guys. They were not perfect but they were decent enough to hold down steady jobs. Over the years they just got jaded and didn't feel the need to impress anyone. These are not 40 year olds who have to rediscover dating. They are divorced before 30 after years of abuse or poor treatment. Conversely my buddies who attended university tended to settle down and usually with someone they met there or at work.

Xander_DB · 2017-01-19T06:45:54+00:00

I was a hardcore romantic growing up. I wanted to get married at like 22, have 5 kids, take care of my wife and treat her like a queen. I treated all my early girlfriends like that. Did any and everything for them. Which is how I eventually found the Red Pill.

I remember once, I wanted an old girlfriend back. We dated in high school and my rep took a HARD HIT dating her because she somehow managed to piss off all the popular girls at school. She was really, really, really beautiful and a new transfer student. Either the girls were jealous of her and banded against her or she was flirting with alot of the boys who were dating those girls. Don't know or care which one was true. Either way, she was a leper at our school. The guys thought she was beautiful but, the girls hated her. We became friends. And we got really, really close, really, really fast....partly because I was the only person who talked to her. At the time, I was dating one of the popular girls and her seeing me getting close with the girl all the girls hated only reinforced their hatred for her. The popular girl dumped me. And three weeks later, I was dating the new transfer girl. This REALLY made them hate her. I went from having a normal high school existence who was somewhat cool with everybody to alot of people hating me for my association with this chick to the point of people wanting to fight me.

Anyway. I was in love. We lasted all through high school but, broke up shortly after. When we met back up a short time later, I realized how much I missed her and I remembered her birthday, so I went to Victoria's Secret and bought her like $300 worth of shit, a bunch of other romantic things I'd know she'd like, wrote her this long sappy ass love letter and sent it all with two dozen flowers to her house on the morning of her birthday. I really, really wanted this girl back obviously. Didn't even get a phone call. I got a Facebook message. A long one but, still a Facebook message, saying how I was one of the only guys who could make her feel so special. I got the dreaded "maybe in the future we'll be together". "That she could see herself with me one day but, not now". I later found out she was dating another guy. He probably took her to the movies or some shit like that whereas I went all out like a moron. When I found the Red Pill years later, I finally realized what it all meant. I was a Beta bucks to her. Her new guy was Alpha, more of a Bad Boy, and was pounding her out while I was sitting around writing love letters. I wasn't good enough to date her now but, in the future, some far far far off future where guys like me made good husbands, maybe then. But it didn't make sense because we had dated for 2 years before. But then I remembered, something I didn't realize before, that she was a social pariah at school. We probably would have never crossed paths if she wasn't blackballed by everyone there. Once she got out of HS, her SMV shot back up and I wasn't good enough anymore. Sorry for the rambling but, the point was, that was the kind of a "nice guy" I was back then. The kind of dude who sent chicks dozens of flowers and sappy love letters.

Randommorningkiller · 2017-01-19T06:52:46+00:00

I can't say I've ever felt lied to in the sense that I had a world view and it was false.

Rather, I always had a clear understanding of the nature of women/girls, as in since elementary. Life was really just a series of "So that's what they call it." moments. I knew what women/girls wanted from guys and I always laughed at attempts to mask intent 1-on-1 or when a girl was putting on an act in a group for sympathy or favours.

What I did find interesting was that others weren't really aware of ulterior motives. They'd often dismiss small actions as meaningless or not understand the consequence of their behaviour, even after the fact, because they didn't think someone could deceive them.

There was this veil of purity around women, which I liked cause admittedly, homewrecking is fun. I'd actually say the easiest time to get a woman is when she's with a guy, because that guy is no longer on his guard. Even if he was the type to have some awareness, he's bound to see his woman as "Not like other girls." and you have free reign with her.

But anyway, to the "So that's what they call it." moments.

I understood the concept of gold diggers and eventually learned the word from Kanye West's song. I understood hypergamy, the 80/20 and the whole social circle pecking order girls tend to have and eventually learned the words and evolutionary need for them.

Honestly, I think deep down, every guy understands these things to some extent, but you need a level of cynicism to acknowledge it and then a level of amorality to exploit it.

Candy_Kittens · 2017-01-18T15:09:01+00:00

I don't think I have ever really believed this lie. No matter what pop culture or my education tried to tell me.

I mean I have two eyes. I'm not stupid.

I knew that there were certain personality types that would be more attractive to women.

but i wasn't going to change who I was just to get empty validation from a nobody.

AutoModerator · 2017-01-18T11:39:08+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair, just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

Title	"We've been lied to" stories.
Author	FairlyNaive
Upvotes	14
Comments	191
Date	January 18, 2017 11:39 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/5oovs5/weve_been_lied_to_stories/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/weve-been-lied-to-stories.270555 https://theredarchive.com/post/270555

Comments