Talk me down, Blue Pillers: two women's-advice writers are quietly agreeing with TRP, and I don't know how to deal with it.

[deleted] · 2014-07-01T20:26:56+00:00

It's just really unreasonable to me that we want to tell those guys who are "striking out" to just be patient.

It is unreasonable. The unreasonableness of it is a huge part of what drives people to TRP.

The problem is there are only, really, two options to give young men: either you find women who aren't playing that game, or you become the bad boy they want to date. TRP seems to suggest the latter, but I think people have more relationships over ONS with the former. Meet women outside of the bar/club/singles scene. Meet women who dislike the bar/club/singles scene, and you will have options besides "be patient".

Archwinger · 2014-07-01T20:12:49+00:00

It's just a sign of the times. That's where women are today. Not all women, but that's the public female party line you're reading.

Your great grandmother's advice to your grandmother was to find a good boy from a good family, snatch him up fast before some other girl does, and settle down to start a family -- and to stay away from the dashing hooligans. They were nothing but trouble and would steal a lady's honor.

Today's mothers are buying their daughters birth control pills at the start of puberty to control their acne. Since girls without acne are a lot more fuckable, it's a good thing they're on birth control already. Mothers are telling their little girls to not rush into settling down too quickly! Be sure to experience what's out there! There are all different kinds of men, and you should casually date a lot of them to figure out what you like!

My grandmother wouldn't let my mom go to medical school. She said it was a waste of money since mom was just going to get married and have kids anyway. Mom became a nurse. Meanwhile, my grandparents sent my uncle to law school. Mom got married and had kids. She went back to work and makes good money -- nursing's a great field. But she feels cheated.

The women today -- my generation -- go to college, many get graduate degrees, and they all go get jobs out of school. They don't need men as providers, which is a good thing. But on the other side of the coin, because they don't need men as providers, the game's changed. All of those guys who spent their entire lives working hard, studying like crazy, hoping to get great jobs and one day provide for a family aren't finding wives out of school any more.

Women don't really have an incentive to date those good boys any more. They don't need them. They can date whoever they want, so they date hot guys, bad boys, and so on. And fuck like rabbits. Because they can. Birth control is cheap and plentiful, society outright encourages casual sex nowadays instead of shunning it, and women can provide for themselves, so there's no need to give those good boys who are still playing by the old rules a second look. Go fuck hot guys, and only worry about settling down when the hot guys stop returning your texts.

[deleted] · 2014-07-01T22:06:18+00:00

[permanently deleted]

SirNemesis · 2014-07-02T05:29:27+00:00

It's just really unreasonable to me that we want to tell those guys who are "striking out" to just be patient.

And yet that's what society, especially women, constantly tell us. In fact, if I complain about "striking out", I'm labelled a Nice Guy (TM), and told that no one deserves sex, and that I'm acting entitled.

I wish as a young guy that I could be romantically (and sexually) successful by simply cultivating the traits that would make me a good husband. But that's not happening in the current society. I have no interest in cultivating those traits if I'm not going to get any respect for it, and would rather adopt the "bad boy" traits that society implicitly respects and values in young men (based on what is rewarded).

kissmekitty · 2014-07-02T06:19:49+00:00

I'll address Sheryl Sandberg's quote because I've read her book and I'm familiar with her opinions. The type of guy she is telling women to marry has nothing to do with the alpha/beta dichotomy. Someone who is smart, opinionated, ambitious, respects women, and values equality is not automatically a "beta" who gets passed over in his prime - plenty of guys who are able to date and/or get laid in high school and college exhibit all of these qualities.

The RP narrative of the "nice guy" seems to translate better to men who have low self-esteem, are pushovers, have poor social skills, or don't have other attractive qualities other than just being nice. Advising young men to overcome these traits isn't exactly rocket science, and it certainly isn't exclusive to TRP. Just because one thing those assholes say (regarding self-improvement / self-respect) is true doesn't mean you have to swallow the whole goddamn pill.

TRPsubmitter · 2014-07-03T15:29:21+00:00

And if that's the advice we're giving to young women, I need to readjust what I say to young men. You can't just expect them to forget the fact that they were overlooked for a long time by these same women, but that seems to be what Tracy Clark-Flory is expecting. His role is to be nice and available for later.

It's just really unreasonable to me that we want to tell those guys who are "striking out" to just be patient.

This is 100% what leads most guys to TRP. And I have no clue why it is criticized by BPers.

This reasoning is perfectly logical and empathizable. If you put yourself in a "nice guy's" shoes, how can you not understand his actions when he no longer wants to be patient?

So to answer your question, there's nothing to talk you down from. The problem is that there is so much "noise" and corruption of true RP messages like this one you "stumbled" across. So what happens is that people start saying "TRP is sexist! TRP hates women!".

So what you are "concerned" about here isn't the RP message itself; it's the fact that you are empathizing with something that could make you feel (or be called) "sexist" or "misogynist". That's the REAL issue here.

In that case, just get over it...because it's nothing more than propaganda that you've internalized. When you take the message by itself, it is completely self-evident; like you said, even self-made women billionaires and biz women admit it's true.

GuildedCasket · 2014-07-02T03:11:48+00:00

Hey OP, I responded to someone else with this, but I think a slightly modified version of it may help you too.

I'll see if I can make this not convoluted. So, if most females followed these two women's advice, we'd see a statistical trend of females having more sex than males. I mean, since most people are not alphas, so to speak, the logic is that a few men would be having sex with tons of women, and women's partner could would be generally higher, with male partner count skewing so that a few people had tons of partners and then the bulk had fewer. Basically: women sleep with the alphas, who are hard to find, then settle down for the betas later in life after their partner count has been raised.

Well, that isn't what we see. The bulk of women (67%) have had between 1 and 4 partners since they turned 18. The next highest bracket (20%) have had between 5 and 10 partners. Above 10 partners is less than 10%. Males also have more sex than females on average: 23% have had 5-10 partners, 16% have had 11-20 partners, and 17% have had 21 or more partners. Almost a fifth of men have had 21 or more partners. Compare this to 3% of women who've had more than 21.

This data suggests that the people who ride the "carousel" are males, seeing as the trend we'd expect to see if women were the carousel riders is actually reversed. A small percentage of women, rather than men, have had a lot of sex with lots of different partners (3%), while a large amount of men have had upwards of 5 partners. 67% of women have had less than 5 partners.

Basically, it's pretty obvious men screw around way more than females, and there are few females, proportionately who sleep with a tons of guys. Basically, there are a few female sluts, but most males are sluts when they get the chance. Males ride the pussy carousel and screw like rabbits while females tend to be more conservative. This is not what redpill teaches us, is it? Redpill teaches us that only alphas get laid and that alphas are few and far between as the whole of the Western world has taken the blue pill - but this is obviously not true, unless way more people are alpha than is proposed... which I don't think people will say is true.

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html#number

Scarlett_Begonias · 2014-07-01T23:07:54+00:00

Just because two advice columnists agree with TRP doesn't all of a sudden make it true. And it doesn't mean most young women agree with that advice either. Advice from strangers is rarely good ime. I think there's a lot of projecting going on there too. Not every woman rejects mature, healthy relationships when they're younger. Maybe as young teens, but plenty of girls grow out of that stage in high school. Just like plenty of guys do.

I don't think guys should just be patient, but you don't need to cultivate a "bad boy" persona to find a girl. And if you do, you're going to wind up in an immature relationship because you'll likely be dating immature women. Find a woman who is interested in a positive and stable relationship, they're not unicorns.

Additionally, I hate when people are characterized as "bad boy" or "crazy boy" as though that's their sole defining feature. People are complex. The guy who is emotionally unstable may very well have traits that make a good husband. Unless you're dating an abusive crazed murderer, it's unlikely that the "bad boy" is really as unmarriable as people seem to suggest. But that's what advice columnists do, they over simplify. Which is why their advice sucks. Also, why can't I marry a cool person? I like cool people.

tryin2figureitout · 2014-07-02T01:10:42+00:00

The thing is, starting from the TRP or "bad boy" position doesn't cost you anything. You'll get your start up with a ONS and casual sex and since the girl is attracted to you, if you have a decent job, money, and she wants a relationship she will push for one. She will entertain dreams of "changing" you. And if you like this girl you can always choose to let down your guard and let her in. You can always choose to be blue pill later in any relationship if you want to. In other words, there's no downside from starting from a position of strength.

OfSpock · 2014-07-01T22:48:19+00:00

These women are stupid and give bad advice.

sparrohs · 2014-07-02T03:20:44+00:00

So? Women will give different advice because they all have different outlooks on life. I, personally, don't think you should "date them all." Some guys aren't worth the time, especially "bad boys" (ie assholes). I just didn't date until I found a nice, intelligent, handsome man who is now my fiance. But, that is just what worked out for me, so that is how I view what Sandberg said. Is that Red Pill? Because I don't care if it is or not. I have an awesome SO and I didn't have to deal with the stupidity of 99% of the population to find him.

Funnily enough I have told my fiance I am going to "marry the fuck out of him" before.

crankypants15 · 2014-07-02T17:51:27+00:00

Sheryl Sandberg:

find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious.

Tracy Clark-Flory:

You know that guy friend you weren’t romantically interested in because he was just too nice and available? Suddenly, you’re grown up enough to come to your senses. Marry the fuck out of him.

I agree with both pieces of advice. I'm not Red or Blue pill. Now I'm divorced and in my 40s, dating again, the few women who want a relationship, even a casual one, find me appealing, because I have my shit together, while many other guys still have the high school mentality. What happened? These women grew up, and so did I. Now we're compatible.

I didn't know these concepts were part of TRP because I don't go there.

It's just really unreasonable to me that we want to tell those guys who are "striking out" to just be patient.

I was really shy and awkward in high school, now I'm really confident. This was not the girls' problem, it was mine, which I fixed later. So basically, yes, I had to grow as a person first, before I became desirable. Now I get to pick and choose who I date.

nicethingyoucanthave · 2014-07-02T18:55:19+00:00

Your three examples are good. I would like to add one more if I may

The issue you've identified, which TRP often calls "alpha fucks/beta bucks" is definitely something that our culture needs to address. A big part of the reason that TRP has grown so fast is that it's just about the only place honestly identifying the issue.

zluruc · 2014-07-01T21:49:28+00:00

Okay. Here's the thing. It does take patience, and it takes learning good people skills. Part of what TRP does is make shortcuts like "ALL WOMEN BLAH BLAH BLAH" or even "MOST WOMEN BLAH BLAH". The problem is, these shortcuts aren't as universal as they claim they are; they're looking at a very specific set of behaviors and personality traits that they then generalize across the entire female population, and then get even more bitter about women through confirmation bias, etc.

I'm in my thirties, and have dated numerous people of varying sexes ranging from short flings to committed long-term relationships, and the thing that worked for me wasn't "Here's the code for how to get into a woman's pants" or "here's how to get a good-quality guy". It really is a matter of taking each person as an individual, whether you want to sleep with them/get in a relationship with them or not. You have to learn good empathy if you want anything more than dysfunctional, manipulative husk of a relationship. You have to genuinely like and respect your partner--hell, decades of research into what makes a long-term relationship survive or fail hinges on that very concept.

So generalized shit like "Hey, that nice guy you know? You should just marry him" doesn't work. Because then you're stuck with someone you married not because you love him, but because you freaked out about the idea of being alone and some advice columnist who's working with limited information is throwing you a "nice guy" line. Red Pill especially scares women with the fear of The Wall and "You'll be a dried up old hag that no one will want"--which is utter shit, in my experience.

Furthermore, this is all contingent on a false dichotomy of "nice guy/bad boy", which really doesn't exist. Every person has their great qualities and their flaws, and trying to artificially categorize them into "nice" and "bad" is useless. Again, it's a stupid shortcut that tries to shove three-dimensional people into the two-dimensional character profiles of a romance novel. And we all know how much those don't reflect reality.

People who are desperate, who are impatient, who are scared--those are the people looking for the hidden Konami code of dating. But you get out of things what you put into them, and if all you put into finding a good partner is a checklist, then you're not going to get a very complex experience. I prefer loving individuals, getting to know their quirks and their idiosyncracies and all the little things I learn to love about them. Each new person is a new adventure, a new set of stories they can tell me about themselves and their lives, and someone to share neat things with. And that's how we figure out whether we're good for each other--we get to know each other with no previous expectations. We allow some vulnerability.

And if the risk is getting hurt now and then, well--as Tennyson said, "better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all". I enjoy each relationship for what it is, and if it ends, I mourn the loss but I celebrate the good and I look to the future. Even if it's just me, myself, and I for a while, that's okay--I have a fantastic life, and I can be quite content on my own until whatever relationship(s) come along down the line. I'm as comfortable in solitude as I am being partnered, and I think that's a much better thing to cultivate than "game".

Exner2 · 2014-07-01T22:02:29+00:00

Ok here's the thing. Socially awkward, nice girls aren't doing so great on the high school dating market, either. And unless you are looking to get married, a lot of young people - male and female - aren't looking for anything "serious." Which means a lot of really nice people of both genders get passed over.

TRP talks a lot about how "any girl can get laid, anytime." But in fact, a lot of people on TRP then go on to admit that there are a lot of girls (e.g., "too fat," "too ugly") who are essentially invisible to them. And even if they would stoop to drunkenly making out with them at a bar, they'd never ask them out on a date. There are a lot of young women who are "invisible," and who also don't get much attention until they meet a guy who is looking to settle down with a nice girl.

My argument ultimately is that I think the difference between the sexes in this regard is far less extreme than TRP would like to admit.

And - word to the wise - join the drama club. I seriously can't think of a single dude who didn't hook up, no matter what he looked like.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2014-07-02T13:32:05+00:00

When confronted with evidence that contradicts your beliefs your really only have two options: adjust your beliefs or ignore the evidence.

Frankly do you really find it that bizarre that people when young would prefer lots of meaningless sex and then shift towards more serious relationships as they age? For men this is not a controversial statement and numerous articles are written telling young men they need to settle down and how to tame them/make them good husbands when women are done with sleeping around. Only the reverse is seen as controversial and sexist.

la_sabotage · 2014-07-04T18:10:07+00:00

find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious.

Yea that totally sounds like she's in agreement with TRP!

myfriendscantknow · 2014-07-02T01:14:56+00:00

To be fair, the same advice is given to men in cheesy pop-advice columns (can't turn a ho into a housewife, a bloo bloo bloo). Date sluts and marry nice girls is advice that is explicitly given in TRP all the time, and it's definitely not just found there, so it's a little hypocritical that they're mad women get the same advice. Actually, now that I said that, I want to make a thread along the lines of "don't TRPers engage in alpha fucks, beta bucks too?"

goatismycopilot · 2014-07-01T21:32:10+00:00

I am not sure the Sanberg advice is all that unusual, she is talking as she always does about an "ideal" universe. Why would I want to marry a commitment phobic person or the "crazy" boy if I wanted to get married, honestly I don't even want to date those two categories. Why would a dude want to marry the "crazy" girl. I took it as date a few different people before you get married and pick wisely. But of course Sanberg is giving advice to women who she thinks will be ambitious whatever that is supposed to mean and I doubt her husband ever had to help with housework, they probably have hired help. The one thing nobody ever mentions for the "nice" guy meme, one woman's "nice" guy friend who hangs around hoping might himself be rejecting an available "nice" girl and so on and so on. Women get rejected by "nice" guys, and that is fine. The idea that women never get rejected unless they have three eyes isn't true.

2comment · 2014-07-02T01:28:34+00:00

And I'm reading two women (well-respected, professional women

Tracy Clark Flory, well respected, professional? Haha, too funny. Just a post wall hookup queen acting exactly as predicted.

The-Pax-Bisonica · 2014-07-06T17:40:04+00:00

My advice to you is to not put too much stock in any one persons opinion, even if they are the COO of face book or a writer for salon. At the end of the day these are the opinions of two people, not scientific research of any stripe.

who_wants_jello · 2014-07-07T13:15:45+00:00

Hopefully, if nice guys (truly nice guys) stick to their guns, the other chicks will find that, by the time they are sick of bad boys, the nice guys are already happily partnered with someone who appreciated them years ago.

[deleted] · 2014-07-09T00:58:58+00:00

Two writers is hardly a reasonable sample size, not that it really matters; taking conventional advice and turning it on it's head is a staple of click-bait

TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK · 2014-10-06T23:39:30+00:00

[deleted]

torn_hangnail · 2014-07-02T04:42:53+00:00

oh my god. this is the most delicious, buttery popcorn

http://fat.gfycat.com/AngelicQuerulousGerbil.gif

torn_hangnail · 2014-07-02T05:35:39+00:00

http://youtu.be/iwxZzTjgr9U

fillmewithyourpoison · 2014-07-01T20:30:36+00:00

[deleted]

[deleted] · 2014-07-01T21:08:16+00:00

What is there to deal with?

[deleted] · 2014-07-02T07:43:49+00:00

This sub sure is a blue pill circlejerk /s

Title	Talk me down, Blue Pillers: two women's-advice writers are quietly agreeing with TRP, and I don't know how to deal with it.
Author	TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK
Upvotes	36
Comments	313
Date	July 1, 2014 7:55 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/29l99b/talk_me_down_blue_pillers_two_womensadvice/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/talk-me-down-blue-pillers-two-womens-advice.285392 https://theredarchive.com/post/285392

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