Jezebel: Objectifying Olympic athletes is horrible... uhhh, except for when they're men. (xpost from /r/tumblrinaction)

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Feminism made the bad rap. No one else.

Accusing others for your own decisions (obviously I am NOT talking about every feminist issue) and doing nothing to help men or even speak up against the double standards men face (many as a result of feminism) will give you a bad rap. Actions speak louder than words, and as a man, I hear feminists say one thing, but do nothing. And this is why this post is in mensrights, it's a double standard men are forced to deal with for no other reason than that feminists tend to make it so.

In all honesty, this sort of thing would never bother me in the slightest way, but since I am constantly told I am if i even look at a woman I am objectifying her, now it is a big deal to me. Feminism made this particular thing an issue for me and since I am being told what I am thinking (based on the fact I have a penis), there is a natural need to defend.

[–]varisforge 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes, we know Not All Feminists Are Like That. We hear it so often and in so many ways that we just use the acronym, NAFALT.

Despite NAFALT, enough of them ARE like that and lash out with what can easily be identified by a five year old as misandry that the whole group is most easily identified by their man-hating behavior.

Maybe its time for feminism to actually focus on improving women instead of bashing men.

The patriarchy doesn't exist, it never has. The only war between men and feminism is the one the feminists have been trying to start for the last fifty years, and the only reason it hasn't worked is because the majority of men are not dumb enough to fight over stupid bullshit.

All that anyone sees of Feminism anymore is "HURR DURR, TEH SHITLORD MENZ ARE RUINING EVERYTHING! OMG ROFLCOPTER"

What happened to, "Equality for all, regardless of gender?"

The truth is, that was a handy saying to get somewhat reasonable people on your side to improve your cache, and now that feminism has an army of screaming retards at its beck and call, they refuse to admit that they have no fucking clue what to do anymore.

Women are respected ABOVE men in every fucking field of endeavor. They are given lighter sentences for THE EXACT SAME CRIME as men. They are spared the draft. They are given pass after pass after pass and all the feminists do is keep on saying that they are mistreated and abused and hold up ever-shrinking examples of general human cruelty as "proof" that women are discriminated against.

Feminism is the living, breathing, putrescent proof that you can't please a woman by giving her what she wants. Women in America have been getting everything they want for fifty years and they are more hateful, resentful and bitchy than ever.

Feminism is fucked.

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[–]sicsemperTrex0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thank you for clarifying, I am sorry for the confusion. Here is what I meant:

Veyron can,and certainly does, post whatever he wants. Nothing is stopping him from doing do, but, by that same token, nothing is stopping me from following him around and calling him out on it. Reddit allots both of us the opportunities to do. Ostensibly, neither of us are wrong or right. We're just two people exchanging ideas on the internet--equals in this sense. But I contend that the ideas he shares concerning women and their place in society are fundamentally wrong with the values that a just, compassionate and equal society hold dear. These just so happen to my personal views too.

I don't want to resort to nitpicking. If anything I want to strive for clarity here. I appreciate you taking the time to engage me like this. Robust discussion can foster better ideas for both parties involved.

[–]PIBagent1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

neither of us are wrong or right. We're just two people exchanging ideas on the internet--equals in this sense. But I contend that the ideas he shares concerning women and their place in society are fundamentally wrong

Neither of you are wrong or right but he is more fundamentally wrong? On this sub we tend to call that doublespeak. You act like you are conceding a point or finding common ground when in truth you still believe on some basic level that he is "fundamentally wrong" and will make it known to him that he is wrong regardless of if that clashes with the statement you previously made (i.e. neither of us are wrong or right).

This is one of the major reasons most people on this sub don't like feminists (and yes this is a classic feminist tactic). They'll preach equality til their blue in the face but the second a situation arises in which having equality would be a detriment to them (selective services, harsher prison sentences , equal gender roles in dating, etc) they will remain eerily silent if not outright sing the praises of traditional roles in these situations.

You love to talk about how his ideas are out of place in a society that values equality, compassion and justice as if we live in a society that actively demonstrates these qualities. If anything his words are a defense mechanism, an adaptation against a society that doesn't care about him or any other man for that matter. Often times society is quick to throw men under the bus and nobody bats an eye, not even the self-proclaimed arbiters of justice and equality the feminists. Now that some people are starting to raise their voices the feminists are feeling threatened because it calls their self-appointed role as the gender authority into question.

If that's the case then I will fight tooth and nail against the feminists and their bigotry until they no longer have a stranglehold on society.

[–]sicsemperTrex-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're confusing all feminism with women who are misandrists. There's some overlap there (and that is unfortunate), I agree, but not all feminists--or just women in general--disagree with the points you're making--harsher prison sentences, gender equality, a less biased court system etc. I don't disagree either, and I do think we men face certain gender specific difficulties in this society and these most certainly have to be addressed as they too don't conform with the values of a just, compassionate, and equal society--which still just so happen to be views I share. What I want is accountability on both sides of the spectrum. For both sides to recognize the struggles the other faces, and to seek out solutions rather than doubling down on the same arguments. For either party to deny the problems faced by the other is foolish and wantonly close-minded. How do you expect to change things around here if all that is done is circle jerking around shitty screen caps of tumblr pages and poorly written jezebel articles. That's not fodder for good discussion, man. It only serves to entrench this place deeper into that terrible "us versus them" mindset.

Veyron isn't a paragon of logic or reason any more than he is a product of a society that outright hates men. I think he is just plain ignorant and afraid of women, so he seeks out opportunities to belittle them on internet forums like this, and the only thing you've done is enable him.

[–]PIBagent2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're confusing all feminism with women who are misandrists

I've made no such mistake, from the very beginning I have declared that feminist =/= woman. As stated in my very first comment one is a ideology and the other is a biologically identified group. That being said I do believe that feminism as an ideology is inherently misandric and therefore any practitioners (feminists) can only be of two kind: the woefully ignorant and the truly misandric.This is true regardless of their gender. Any well informed individual who actually believed in the equality and justice they spout wouldn't be caught dead associating with them.

How do you expect to change things around here if all that is done is circle jerking around shitty screen caps of tumblr pages and poorly written jezebel articles. That's not fodder for good discussion, man.

A discussion can only truly be had when the problem has been identified in quantifiable terms. Imagine having a discussion on a topic to which you have no data underlining the points you make. perpetually highlighting misandry as it appears in our culture provides numerous examples of the points we make on this thread.

Veyron isn't a paragon of logic or reason any more than he is a product of a society that outright hates men.

Do you have any proof that he isn't a victim of a society that disadvantages men or are you just denying him victim status because it is easier to hate a villain who is well off?

[–]sicsemperTrex-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you think all of feminism is inherently misandrist then you're damaged goods, friend. My guess is you have a superficial understanding of the broad and complex ideas of feminism. You're symptomatic of the problem and no different than the stubborn "feminists" on the other side of the debate who refuse to make an effort to understand men's issues as well. I'm sorry you feel like there is a grand conspiracy out there against you, I really do. My advice, which is free, is to educate yourself a little more on what feminism actually is in all its facets. You can even think of it as "knowing your enemy" a little better for all I care. And hell, maybe you're right about poor Veyron. Maybe something terrible happened to him that soured him on women...but, I don't get that impression when I read the idiotic things he's content with posting. So I'm just gonna keep pushing his buttons because I am certain what he posts is just plain wrong. Take care, fellow man. Take care.

[–]PIBagent2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]sicsemperTrex0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PIBagent2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I am not going to do the legwork and walk you through the history, aims, goals and multifacited ideas of a whole philosophy just so you can continually tell me it is all wrong.

I'm not asking for a complete history of the feminist movement or any of their philosophies, just a logical counter argument to the few points I have brought up so far. This should be easy for someone as educated on feminism such as yourself.

The real truth is that you like picking easy targets (like Veyron) who you know probably won't put out any real arguments against your belief system that can't be easily countered. That way you can brag to your feminist friends about how you told those damned MRA's a thing or two and struck a blow for social justice without actually doing anything. When faced with a REAL argument that challenges you you'll turn tail and run much like your doing now.

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[–]sicsemperTrex1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You know what? I take it all back. I have said my peace here, and I realize I am fighting a losing battle. I am losing in the sense that there really isn't much convincing you or the lot of other people on here of the points I am trying to make. The only thing you have succeeded in doing is bringing me down to your moronic level, and I fell so far into the hole we've dug together I feel like an ass for even bothering to pick up a shovel in the first place. You can interpret this as me turning tail and running or whatever, and that is fine. I can definitely live with that. You'll probably cry foul, whine and complain or maybe you'll gloat and call me names or insult my character or any other number little joys you'll derive from this little back and forth we've had. But the thing is, you're still just defending someone like Veyron and in doing this you're not very different from him--or better for that matter. You might be a little more articulate, a little more persistent, and perhaps a little more deserving of civility when being dealt with, but only to a fault. Fact is you're still part of a fringe group of people who see themselves as victims against a boogy-man (women?) of your own goddamn creation. Yeah, there is misandry and sexism towards men out there, and we need to work on these issues like we need to work on every gender issue that crops up in a free, democratic society. And hey, are some women's groups to blame for this? Sure, yeah, I'll concede to that. Does this mean that the whole lot of feminism is out to bring men down? No. It just doesn't. But reiterating this point here to you is just going to fall on deaf ears. Look, I am not some "feminist crusader." I am not going to go brag to my feminist friends in my drum circle full of middle-aged lesbian women of color about how I went deep into the lion's den of an MRA message board and locked horns with you. I am just a guy who got caught up in a petty internet argument with some other guy who is convinced any progress made by women in our society is the source of man's regression. And that's just stupid. But that isn't how you see your personal narrative here: you see yourself as someone "unplugged from the matrix" or some nonsense. You're so convinced of your own victimization that some idiot like me churning out a few C+ paragraphs isn't going to make a dent in your righteous indignation. I really considered sitting down and carefully weighing the arguments presented in the link you hastily posted, but I realized it is just so futile and a colossal waste of my time, so I'll just go back to my original point: I pick on Veyron because someone like him needs his shit shoved right back in his face. This is isn't about ticking off a little victory for feminists everywhere, this is about me wanting to get some asshole to realize what kind of an asshole he is, and how fucking bad he smells so maybe he'll wise up and take a goddamn shower.

[–]PIBagent1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]autowikibot1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Feminism:

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.

Feminist theory, which emerged from feminist movements, aims to understand the nature of gender inequality by examining women's social roles and lived experience; it has developed theories in a variety of disciplines in order to respond to issues such as the social construction of sex and gender. Some of the earlier forms of feminism have been criticized for taking into account only white, middle-class, educated perspectives. This led to the creation of ethnically specific or multiculturalist forms of feminism.

Feminist activists campaign for women's rights – such as in contract law, property, and voting – while also promoting bodily integrity, autonomy, and reproductive rights for women. Feminist campaigns have changed societies, particularly in the West, by achieving women's suffrage, gender neutrality in English, equal pay for women, reproductive rights for women (including access to contraceptives and abortion), and the right to enter into contracts and own property. Feminists have worked to protect women and girls from domestic violence, sexual harassment, and sexual assault. They have also advocated for workplace rights, including maternity leave, and against forms of discrimination against women. Feminism is mainly focused on women's issues, but because feminism seeks gender equality, the author bell hooks and other feminists have argued that men's liberation is a necessary part of feminism and that men are also harmed by sexism and gender roles.

====

Image i - International Women's Day rally in Dhaka, Bangladesh, organized by the National Women Workers Trade Union Centre on 8 March 2005.

Interesting: Second-wave feminism | History of feminism | Feminist movement | Anarcha-feminism

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[+]Pocketlizard 12 years ago [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

While I appreciate your decrying Jezebel, the sad truth is that it is currently one of the most influential blogs, of any category, today (ranked 17th overall by Technorati). When the "shittiest most reactionary aspects" of a group are also the most influential, you've got a real problem.

But please, continue to be vocal about Jezebel being an embarrassment to feminism. If every purported feminist took the same stance, maybe it would lose some of the power it currently holds.

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I stand corrected.

You mean feminists have only been lying to you about how "Return of Kings" is an MRA website in order to shame us from getting support? NO WAY!

The point I'm making is that I'm pretty sure I can find a site featuring a purported mra saying something shitty.

A "purported mra saying something shitty" is not the same as the LARGEST AND MOST POPULAR feminist outlet making routine contradictory articles. Jezebel has written TONS of articles being staunchly opposed to men's rights issues, from male circumcision to domestic violence to paternity fraud.

Paul Elam springs to mind here.

Oh no, big bad Elam! Committing such horrible crimes as writing wordy articles and exposing feminism. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if you attach him to some worthless feminist buzzword like "rape-apologist" just because the feminists told you so just like they convinced you "Return of Kings" was a MRA website.

Jezebel is one step up from tumblr and is an embarrassment to feminism. Basically it's a fucking joke and I dont even think rhe people who run it would try to defend it.... it's troll bait

Then please explain why Jezebel is literally the largest and most popular feminist outlet? Seems like most of your fellow "feminists" don't agree with you on what an "embarrassment to feminism" actually is.

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What are the other two? I could maybe think of PUA but that is a wild guess.

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[–]mean0dean044 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

then who says I cant disavow jezebel and other crappy sections of feminism the same way?

Because feminism already has the cultural, academic, and political legitimacy to make its message ubiquitous, so much so that it CAN encompass both Jezebel and academic feminism (even when they're not that far apart, like Luce Irigaray, who infamously decried the "masculine" "phallic" nature of Einsteinian physics). When feminists cry "Not All Feminists Are Like That," what they're actually saying is "I can call myself a feminist and not believe that, and those people can call themselves feminists and believe things completely different, and we're all feminists, so it isn't moving the goalposts--it's just removing goalposts altogether!"

So yeah--you surely can disavow Jezebel as No True Feminist--but they can do the same to you, and academics can do the same to them, and they can do the same to academics... meanwhile, institutional feminism is STILL a multimillion-dollar lobbying group with hundreds of taxpayer-funded institutions at the local, state, national, and international level pushing for women's issues regardless of whether the women being championed are truly disadvantaged or not.

Feminism is a cultural juggernaut; the MRM is literally a few internet blogs and a men's center here or there, and those are so terrifying to the feministopolis that all pretense of "feminism = equality for all" goes out the window. But do you see the MRM embracing its own Andrea Dworkins and Valerie Solanases? Fuck no--MRAs are doing what feminists refused to do for decades while their radical elements ran roughshod over the legal, political, and academic landscape. Shit--nearly 40 years on, the attempted murderer and author of the SCUM Manifesto is STILL BEING READ on some college campuses! Maybe instead of disavowing Jezebel, you should seriously consider disavowing feminism altogether for allowing that shit to happen. Seriously--millions of dollars in taxpayer money and Valerie Solanas still gets play? That would be like MRAs tacitly supporting Marc Lepine, the Ecole Polytechnique shooter for forty years straight, then having a big laugh when some young MRAs make a tribute video to him. THAT'S the true nature of feminism--excusing the horrible behavior of women by blaming men and hoping nobody notices the switch.

[–]kragshot 17 points18 points19 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually, I am not even close to "splitting hairs."

Return of Kings is far, far, closer to the PUA school than anything that the MRM espouses (in fact, I was mistaken in calling RoK a "red-pill" website, even though they do adhere to some tenets of red-pill thought). And as I said above; the contributors on RoK has on many occasions, openly disavowed the MRM, as we have done with them.

Now, I will admit that there is some crossover between the two groups. But that is because the MRM and the PUA movements, as well as the MGTOW movement all consist of men who are seeking a new epistemology regarding what we know about manhood and masculinity. The one thing that all three groups agree upon is that the old ways are not working for men anymore.

But here's the bigger thing and you're gonna love this, kitten; we are open about either our approval or disdain of each other. You will see MRM advocates who do not agree with AVFM's approach to the MRM speak openly in here. Just as you see folks in here who don't agree with the PUA movement, the MGTOW movement, and the Red Pillers. We all are open about our disapproval of these various responses to what we see as a world with a very misandric bent to it.

I have yet to see any feminists speak up about the Rad Fems, the Academic Bullying that's going on up in Canada, or even the Tumblr Zombie feminists. You all can't even get your shit together to respect triggering non-white feminists; or have we forgotten the NYC Slutwalk in 2011 with the casual disregard of the word "nigger" and the blatant "femsplaining" in trying to justify its use?

No...I'm not the one being intellectually dishonest here about my movement. Not in the least.

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[–]753861429-951843627 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think feminism and MRA have to be diametrically opposed.

That's actually not a clear-cut thing and depends a lot on what the MRM's ideological and intellectual base fill ultimately be. Despite more and more people peddling extremely shallow soundbite-definitions of feminism there's a foundational ideology that is hard to pin down exactly, but at least outright rejects any epistemology that aims to produce objective knowledge from an objective universe (in the sense of "independent of people") in favour of things like standpoint theory, impartiality in favour of a clearly stated universal bias towards the good of women (this means that science that produces data or theories that could be construed to support agendas that are detrimental to women, or science that doesn't support the next list item I'll bring up, is to be rejected on that basis), and any narrative that does not support or does criticise the class oppression narrative that has been applied to gender relations at the least since the early sixties, in favour of a stated axiom that women are, as a gender, oppressed (either directly or indirectly by man), and more. None of those are compatible with any of the ideological and theoretical frameworks that are slowly emerging in the various subsets of the MRM, so that I do not expect any large change in these areas.

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[–]CyberToyger 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think Objectification is natural and fine so long as it doesn't devolve into treating the person like garbage or abusing them in person. It's only natural to lust after good-looking people, or see knowledgable people as basically an interactive book/source of information rather than a living being with their own aspirations. It's only a problem when people treat them poorly, as in, verbal abuse or physical abuse. Feminists and SJW's might feel uncomfortable with being lusted after, but unless someone is stalking them or blocking their path while they walk to work/the store, they're not being directly acted upon and don't have a very strong case. If we punished people for merely objectifying others, most of the world would be paying fines out the ass or have binders worth of restraining orders slapped down on them.

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[–]cyborek 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Characters in a smut work aren't treated as full persons, they are depicted in unrealistic situations designed for your gratification and when you use real people as basis for them that's like bringing all the aspects of these peoples lives to the level of objects. In short, everything about a fanfic like that screams objectification while in the ad you have normal activity by whole but anonymous people but filmed and edited for your gratification. It's objectifying the body of an anonymous person vs objectifying a specific person's whole image. When you look at an ad like that you treat these people a little worse than an attractive person you ogle for a moment in the street, you don't forget their humanity, while reading a fanfic you see people acting like puppets and it takes away from their humanity in your eyes.

[–]Chef_Lebowski 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]redkey42 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Honest question... Why are many here so intent on focusing on feminism tear downs?

I look at this subreddit front page and the content is overwhelmingly presented as 'men vs women'/'woman screws man over'. Check r/feminism for a comparison, and it does not present the same.

This thread draws attention to an instance of an individual "feminist?", writing an article that displays their own hypocrisy. Disappointing, and good for calling it... But then it's made out as though it represents the views of all feminists. That's illogical.

You won't find support for this article on r/feminism, so what's this really about? Does on idiot amongst you represent MRA's position as a whole?

I think there's a worrying trend here that shows lack of objective reasoning, and a tendency to display and promote the most negative, and hypocritical instances of "feminism" as though it's the creed of all feminists. I guess negative, and bait-piece articles are more compelling?

No one could even try to deny that some women are genuinely assholes, and the same goes for men. It doesn't by extension mean that now all people are assholes, so it's tiresome to see this poor reasoning trotted out in other circumstances.

In my view, honestly I don't see the point in this constant "us versus them" mentality. Ideally we both take a balanced and objective view on fairness and try to make positive steps towards it, because isn't that the whole point?

Anyone who has another agenda needs to get some perspective.

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Uh, I don't know. The sport is pretty fun to watch. Men's Beach Volleyball included.

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Title	Jezebel: Objectifying Olympic athletes is horrible... uhhh, except for when they're men. (xpost from /r/tumblrinaction)
Author	FrostytheSnowColt
Upvotes	1070
Comments	178
Date	April 1, 2014 6:16 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/21xz8q/jezebel_objectifying_olympic_athletes_is_horrible/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/jezebel-objectifying-olympic-athletes-is-horrible.1002124 https://theredarchive.com/post/1002124

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