Question /MR/ - If men shouldn't be expected to pay for dates, how will I get a girlfriend?

LostPristinity · 2012-05-11T18:30:26+00:00

I live in an area where guys definitely feel they have to be macho and pay for everything for the girl. Its really aggravating when on dates because i pretty much have to scream "i am a big girl and make my own money" or sneakily pay without him noticing. I am pretty upfront about i want to pay my own (especially since i know i have expensive tastes).

The guy i am currently with is one of the first to let me pay half or all of the bill. At first his supposed gentleman sensitivities were upset but he realized that this was fair and there was no way in hell he would be paying for everything.

You need to be open and honest with the women you are with because if you can't have conversations about paying the check, what else will you not talk about later? Down here, there are girls who absolutely would be offended if you did not pay the bill, but i know plenty of girls who would be glad to share payment or even pick up the bill now and then.

carchamp1 · 2012-05-11T17:43:09+00:00

If a girl won't go out with you unless you pay she is USING you, not dating you.

he_cried_out_WTF · 2012-05-11T16:06:23+00:00

I try to think of it this way when I am presented with a situation with no real win scenario like you mentioned. For example, if it's cold outside and my girlfriend ( who agrees with most of MR luckily ) asks for my jacket, I'm not giving her my jacket because she's a girl. I'm giving it because I care about her. If the situation were reversed I would hope she would do the same.

I guess my advice is to go on the date. At the end, offer to pay. If she says she wants to split it at the very least, you know she is either worthy of a second date or knows the social rules all too well, haha. If she just says thanks, don't go on another date. And feel it out from there.

ignatiusloyola · 2012-05-11T16:05:55+00:00

If a woman won't date you simply because you won't pay for dates, she despises you and only wants your money. So the question you have to ask yourself is "Is having a girlfriend so important to me that I am willing to subsidize the entertainment of someone who despises me?" (I am exaggerating a little bit. But only a little bit.)

P.S. Also consider coming up with dating ideas that don't cost any money. There are millions of things you can do that don't cost any money. If she demands to go out on $$$ dates, refer to my first point.

agilecaveman · 2012-05-11T18:06:32+00:00

I'm your age, different area. I never pay for dates until relationship starts. You have the following options:

a) Go to cheap dates and pay (coffee)

b) Go to dates that are obviously Dutch (picnic with your own food)

c) Learn the Game and pretend/act like SHE should be paying

d) Meet more women. Online, meetup.com is the best place to meet women (and men). OkCupid is not even close.

truthjusticeca · 2012-05-11T16:04:12+00:00

Yeah, I hear you. Keep dates very inexpensive unless she's willing to contribute.

solinv · 2012-05-11T16:10:11+00:00

Just be honest in your expectations. You expect her to be an independent women with her own thoughts who can contribute equally. In my experience, most women under 30 no longer expect men to pay for everything. Be straightforward.

TheSacredParsnip · 2012-05-11T16:37:34+00:00

Before anybody just says, oh no problem- just don't date girls who expect you to pay- I have to be completely honest when I say that I don't think I've ever met girls like that.

Girls like that are out there. I think my girlfriend may have paid on our first real date. We end up going back and forth normally.

How do you balance the knowledge that these things are unfair coupled with the reality that things are unfair, and if you expect to land a woman (i.e. not be alone) you have to suffer these injustices?

You don't. You go for coffee or something else that's inexpensive and assume you're paying. Most women say, "well if he asked then he should buy." I think my girlfriend actually subscribes to this train of thought, but she wasn't afraid to ask guys out so the rule worked. Sometimes she paid and sometimes the guy paid. In most cases, it's just an easy way to excuse the expectation that the man pays. In my experience probably a quarter or third of women will gladly pay the bill, while the rest will just assume you're a cheap bastard for not paying.

fondueguy · 2012-05-11T18:35:17+00:00

Girls will date guys regardless and the more guys who don't pay for dates the less necessary it will become. It just a matter of what people can get.

Interestingly, during wwii women would pay men for dates seeing how their were less men around. Now that women make more, the trend should change with some effort.

timmah1991 · 2012-05-11T19:05:14+00:00

I had a girlfriend who INSISTED on paying for her own share of dates. Just keep looking.

Redebidet · 2012-05-12T00:20:43+00:00

I have been really hard pressed to find a woman who doesn't automatically want to pay her share, or want to treat me to part of the date when I treat her to the other part. Maybe we just have different circles of people we know?

If I was in your shoes and I didn't feel right about paying for everything , yet my ability to date really suffered for it, I would ask a woman out and assume I'm going to pick up the check on the first date. If she wants to pay her part, great! She passed that part of the compatibility test! If she doesn't, well either she is trying to be a gracious date and let me play a "man" role, or she really wants me to foot the bill.

If I pay for the first date, and it all goes well, I'd call her up in a few days to set up a second date. Before I ask about a second date, in the process of our conversation I'd bring up how sometimes when I date women I wind up just feeling like a wallet, and since I really like her and want to feel assured she likes me for me, would she be willing to go dutch for the rest of our dates going forward? I'd apologize for the awkwardness, but let her know why it's important to me, and make it clear that I wanted to treat her to the first date, but now that I know I want to go forward, I'd like to start going dutch.

If she accepts, great! We're compatible. If she doesn't, well I got some more experience in making a good impression on a first date, which is probably the hardest part of dating.

Also, just a word of encouragement and advice. There are a lot of great women out there, so don't despair. Personally I've found the women I'm most compatible with, and think most highly of, usually are friends of friends. If I meet a woman in other ways, it's usually because she can't find anyone else in her circle of friends or acquaintances to date, so she makes herself available through other means (bars, clubs, online dating profiles, etc).

So anyways, if you don't have many friends to meet women through, make some! Start volunteering for a good cause, join groups focused around your hobbies, anything. Even if it's all guys, they're bound to have compatible female friends, or girlfriends/wives who have a friend who would be a great person for you, etc.

Cartesian_Duelist · 2012-05-12T12:02:15+00:00

Alright, I've had a lot of experience here.

Always a cheap first date.

No fancy dinners, movies, go-karting, whatever. When you make the date, you should insist upon a cheap, daytime date because you'd love to get to know them more, but your schedule is tied up for a bit in the evening. I found coffee and cheapo lunches are best. You're talking and getting to know each other over a half-hour.

Now, when the time comes, offer to pay and gauge her reaction. If she's like 'sure! go ahead!' it's a warning sign. Most women are not stupid and are aware of the pressures on a guy. Now, what many expect is for you to say something like "You sure, it's really no trouble" and pay anyway. Don't.

This does a few things:

1) Lets her know you're direct

2) You don't put up with gender-stereotypical bullshit

3) You're not wishy-washy

When everything is paid for, invite her out again for a more exciting date. She knows the rules you play by now. If she agrees, you've probably found a keeper. If not, move on.

khaosxxkels · 2012-05-11T17:40:59+00:00

If you've never met any girls willing to pay her share of the date, you need to meet more people who know how to act like an adult. :/ Pretty much all the girls I know don't expect the guy to pay for everything. How old are you, anyway (if you don't mind me asking)?

jacKofKats · 2012-05-11T17:05:06+00:00

If you don't want to pay for dinner? Wow, in my experience women who you're honest with about going Dutch and splitting the bill like the refreshing change more.
Remember, if someone offered to buy you dinner, you'd say yes. After all, refusal often offends, but many, many women are with it and don't want to live in the past and are more than happy to pay.
I've even had girlfriends when I was skint who've been happy to pay for me. Then down the line I bought them expensive gifts to make up for it. Relationships are all about give and take.

phukka · 2012-05-11T17:50:51+00:00

Once you get into your mid-twenties you'll start to meet grown-ups that don't expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

Until then, don't date girls. Just have unattached sex with them, no expectations. If something comes from it, there you go. Otherwise, don't treat them as anything special, because in all likelihood the sentiment won't be returned.

rightsbot · 2012-05-11T15:56:17+00:00

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chavelah · 2012-05-11T20:10:11+00:00

I met the man I am married to at a time in my life when I was very gung-ho about paying for my own food and movies tickets. My husband tells me that he really enjoyed this, not because he couldn't afford to pay for me, but because it gave him the impression that I was actually sleeping with him just for the fun of it. (Which was true.)

But that was college, in the Golden Age of sportfucking. You are 26. I think, as you think, that the vast majority of women you meet will screen out men who appear less than eager to pay for dates. It signals either money troubles, or that the guy is looking for sportfucking rather than courtship. A woman who wants to marry will be quite reasonably put off by either one. Most decent American women are actively looking to marry by the time they are 26.

If just just want to sportfuck, then do so. But if you want to court a woman and want to get the highest-value woman by whatever criteria you choose to apply, you are probably going to have to buy a lot of dinners and movie tickets.

InfinitelyThirsting · 2012-05-11T17:17:40+00:00

How old are you, and where do you live? That drastically affects things.

2012-05-11T18:32:37+00:00

Agree that you'll go "dutch" as stated earlier. If she finds that unfair, then you don't want to waste your time and get attached to her anyway because she has problems. My current girlfriend and I did that and now we wrestle over the check when it comes. She even wins half the time. I always said I got a good one though, but it was a long search. There's nothing wrong with being single, as monotonous as it can be. You're better off waiting a long time than having a long string of bad relationships.

HalfysReddit · 2012-05-11T18:33:25+00:00

If the girl is worth your time she's going to be with you for who you are, now what you have. Money will only buy you a gold-digger.

What I do to cope with the fact that being an enlightened, modern man will inevitable cause some women to disregard me, is I remind myself that the only women who are turned away by such things are the same women I wouldn't care to spend any time with. I'm saving myself the emotional turmoil of being played by them and the financial turmoil of paying for them.

dakru · 2012-05-11T19:21:05+00:00

Here's the thing. So many guys have such little confidence that they think the only thing they can offer a girl is buying her a bunch of stuff, like drinks, dinner, presents. An extension of just being excessively "nice" to make up for everything else. He doesn't have a personality, he's not exciting, he doesn't have a strong personality, he's not going to challenge her. She knows she's got him, and so she loses interest and attraction rather quickly.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-05-11T19:38:53+00:00

This is not a mechanical issue. Its a question of personality and emotion.

PellagiusTheSane · 2012-05-11T19:47:04+00:00

Situations like this call for a certain bluntness. If a woman goes on a few dates with you and not even offer to pay, ask her when she is going to take you out. Just be prepared to walk away from a woman that says she is "traditional" and expects a man to pay. Nope.

You have to believe that you are as much of a catch/prize as she is. Your time matters, you are important too. That attitude will keep you from being taken advantage of in dating. A date should be graded both ways. You are interviewing her too. Just remember that. It also helps to be good-looking though...

YadaYadaYada2 · 2012-05-11T20:03:16+00:00

Her Double-D’s Can Bankrupt You

"Every relationship has two termination points, the beginning and the end. The best end for a married couple is natural death in old age, after many years of happiness. Unfortunately, at least half of marriages end prematurely, in divorce. And, as I indicated in the first section of this article, women seek 70% of all divorces. According to credible research, the biggest reason women seek divorce is to take custody of the children, the most important assets of the marriage. This means that most men, by definition, enter marriages in positions of weakness.

In the marriage so typical of modern society, the beginning and ending points are dating and divorce, respectively: The Double-D’s. Think of The Double-D’s as a pair of matching bookends that bestride the relationship’s key epics: marriage, friends, children, the house, and wealth—all of which virtually disintegrate in divorce for most men."

"I contend that whatever financial dynamic occurs between a man and woman in dating will be mirrored in divorce—hence, the matching bookends. So, if a woman exhibits selfish entitlement behavior in your first few dates, as exemplified by her refusal to host you for a night on the town, she is making a cosmic statement. Overlook this statement at your own peril, for she is demonstrating just how much she’ll clean your clock in a divorce. If she feels entitled to be the primary beneficiary of the dating dollars, she will feel no compunction about taking the lion’s share of the divorce dollars, as well as custody of the children and the house—while watching with schadenfreude as you downgrade your life. And that, my friends, is how her Double-D’s can bankrupt you." here

CaptainChewbacca · 2012-05-11T20:08:41+00:00

I paid the first few dates, but then once we got committed she started sharing the costs. I'd buy the tickets, she'd buy the popcorn and soda, etc.

I'm not required to pay for dates, but I choose to as a sign of respect and appreciation. If the woman you're dating never chooses to reciprocate, thats probably a bad sign.

elebrin · 2012-05-11T22:11:53+00:00

Go on dates that don't require money. I don't date, but a number of my friends have been very successful with that tactic. This may not be an option for you, but they would invite them to a school function that was paid for by the school or the student activity fee. You might not have much choice as to the venue, but its a free way to see if she likes you.

Sunshineinpittsburgh · 2012-05-12T05:31:16+00:00

I'm a girl, so maybe I am not the best to comment on a predominantly men's issue, but perhaps go to a park or go get coffee. Most girls would love the time to talk and get to know you, and the expense is minimal. I don't care about the gender, but usually whomever asks is the host should pay. If a girl won't accept a date if it's not a fancy dinner she's probably not worth a fuck.

planejane · 2012-05-12T08:41:31+00:00

Go with the Ted Mosby approach: Ask her on a date, and if she offers to pay, advance her to the next round.

BinaryShadow · 2012-05-12T13:03:31+00:00

First date should always be something light and friendly, like coffee. I refuse to "wine and dine" some random chick just because she has blessed me with her company.

For the record, all my g/f's have refused to take my money on the first (light) date. Afterwards, we took turns just to avoid the hassle of dividing out the bill (which in busy restaurants adds yet another lenghtly return trip from the staff to get you out of there).

Whisper · 2012-05-12T15:14:59+00:00

Go start reading r/seduction.

Paying for dates actually makes you less attractive. You'll learn why, and what to do instead.

celibacy4life · 2012-05-12T16:08:27+00:00

My answer is to not engage in any formal dating behavior. In my old age, I have found it's far more satisfying just to be friends with women, rather then to pursue them romantically. Economically this works out because you'll never have to pay for them. More importantly, you get to know them better on terms that doesn't involve the rules of engagement for dating. If you feel comfortable enough you can take a calculated risk and make a move. If you value your friendship then you aren't under the gun to adhere to all the protocol. You can just have a good time without worry.

2012-05-14T15:39:57+00:00

You don't THINK or you don't know?

Make friends with people. Get to know what they're about by talking on the phone or exchanging e-mails a bit.

Meet for non-pay dates. Free movies in the park, an outdoor activity like bike riding, going for walks to get to know each other.

By then you will have enough information to know whether or not she's the type to think you're required to pay because of your penis. And if she is, you don't mesh so move on.

zyk0s · 2012-05-11T17:36:26+00:00

You have to ask yourself what you want from life and from women.

Is it just sex and superficial companionship with an attractive girl? Then Learn Game. Go to the seduction subreddit and start reading. There are ways to sway women to even get to pay for the date themselves, if you're good. Successful players, or pickup artists, never buy women drinks unless there is an understanding the woman will buy him a drink in turn, and never pay more for dates than their share. They only start giving gifts when there is a relationship. Some people here disagree with pickup and say it's immoral and you are manipulating girls' feelings for sex. Since these girls will likely manipulate yours to get free drinks and dinner, I don't think you should feel bad about doing the same.

If on the other hand, you do not want to play mind tricks and be completely honest with a woman, then ask yourself about the type of relationship you want with her. Would you want your couple dynamics to be more traditional, i.e. she stays home, takes care of the house and you are the primary breadwinner? In that case, it would make sense to pay for everything, but realize that woman needs to be extremely honest, because if a marriage like this goes sour, you risk loosing everything.

The other possibility is an egalitarian, modern woman who has a career and thinks of herself as independent. If you go on a date with this kind of woman, then you should explain to her that if she truly is egalitarian, she won't insist on you paying for everything. If she still wants you to pay, ask yourself why that is, and if that woman is really as valuable as you thought she was. If you want a relationship, one of the values is honesty and truthfulness: how can she claim to be an egalitarian if she doesn't believe in equal responsibilities. If she doesn't have that quality, but you still find other qualities in her then either accept to be subservient in the relationship, or refer to the first paragraph.

tl;dr: either get equal division through communication or through game, depending on the type of woman you want.

TomBayes · 2012-05-11T19:09:47+00:00

Pay for your dates when your date has done something that deserves it being paid for. Did she just help you move? Did she buy the movie tickets? Did she cancel plans with her girlfriends to hang out with you? Did she drive all the way across town to pick you up because your car broke down? Did she go with you to the hospital to see a sick relative?

If you are going to pay for dates, make the sure the cost of the date is small. Like just a coffee or an ice cream. Something you might buy for a friend. At some point, you're going to have to start paying, and as I said, it should only be at times she deserves it. Though once you're in a serious relationship, that all goes out the window.

mikesteane · 2012-05-12T00:34:42+00:00

It's the other way round, mate. The more you pander to women, the less they respect you. Read the essay by that consummate scientist Mr. Richard Feynman entitled "You Just Ask Them" for the results of his experiment with not paying for things. I recommend you start looking at some PUA sites or read "The Game" by Neil Strauss.

Embogenous · 2012-05-11T17:11:09+00:00

It's a general societal expectation much more than a personal one. That is, women will typically assume you'll pay because that's just the done thing, but if they're aware that you have a problem with it that doesn't mean they'll personally require you to. So how to navigate to that issue? Well, paying for a date or two and then mentioning that you prefer to split tabs seems pretty damn safe, and you're only out half a check (/one check). You could of course bring it up prior, I'm just worried about how it will come off (whether they'll correctly interpret it as "I don't like the expectation that I'll pay because I'm a man" or incorrectly as "I don't want to spend more money on you than I have to"). The type of woman who would think the former would probably be a better fit for you than the latter, but it comes down to your ability to work it into conversation (so no idea how well this will work out, you might as well give it a shot).

Or you could just hold out for somebody who does expect to pay half, but if you're sick of that I recommend going one of the two above routes.

VoodooIdol · 2012-05-11T17:52:23+00:00

Whoever does the inviting is the one that should pay. That or you agree ahead of time to go "dutch".

And, really, you aren't going to live in backwardsland forever. You'll eventually be somewhere where women and men aren't both relegated to certain specific gender roles.

2012-05-11T20:03:06+00:00

Shit like that doesn't matter, I care more about family law in general, what happens between two people dating isn't my concern. If you want her to pay for your food then she can pay for your food, if you want to pay then pay, it's not my business.

2012-05-13T11:56:01+00:00

Just 'forget' your wallet.

nicklestutor · 2012-05-11T19:16:39+00:00

Game.

There is no free.

Either pay.

Or learn how to turn women on so they'll want to fuck you by learning how to be an attractive man.

2012-05-12T00:32:07+00:00

why do you want one? what will you do with it?

Title	Question /MR/ - If men shouldn't be expected to pay for dates, how will I get a girlfriend?
Author	IAskTheObvious
Upvotes	12
Comments	73
Date	May 11, 2012 3:56 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/tib6g/question_mr_if_men_shouldnt_be_expected_to_pay/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/question-mr-if-men-shouldnt-be-expected-to-pay-for.1022020 https://theredarchive.com/post/1022020

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