Do you know what bugs me?

PemCorgiSelphie · 2011-07-07T08:44:00+00:00

I'm a woman, but what REALLY bothers me is that news agencies will ALWAYS make a point to mention if some people were killed included women and/or...

[–]womblefish 44 points45 points46 points 15 years ago (48 children) | Copy Link

[–]FreddyDeus 29 points30 points31 points 15 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Someone posted an interesting video on youtube a while back, loaded with clips of the way men were referred to in news items.

If it was a crime and the perp was male, they were referred to as 'the man'

If it was a woman who was the perp, they were referred to as 'the attacker' - 'the assailant' - 'the defendant' - 'the accused' etc. Their gender was not referred to anywhere near as much if it were a man.

Likewise, if men were the victim of a crime or tragedy, their gender was barely referred to at all. The crew of the Kursk for example, were hardly ever referred to as 'the men' but always the crew, even though there wasn't a single female crew member aboard.

If the news item was about men performing a 'noble' act, once again, they were not referred to as men, but in a gender neutral way such as 'the skiers' - 'the rescuers' - 'the lifeguard' etc. Women reported on the same way have their genders at the forefront of the story.

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[+]forgettokillphilip 15 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Your comment has nothing to do with what womblefish wrote.

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[–]iTroll_irl -4 points-3 points-2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Way to miss the fucking point:

Great way to start out a post. Top notch. I'm already being persuaded.

They are described as happening to a de-gendered group of "workers" or "people". Whereas when things happen to women, it's always described explicitly in gender-specific terms, as something happening to women. This type of reporting unifies women and makes people think about women as a gender group, but works against the unification of men and makes people think of men as generic "people" or "workers", not as a specific gender group with specific gender issues.

Quite frankly, this sounds like nonsense. You're arguing that people believe that men cannot have issues because of how men tend to be the default class of people? That men cannot unify because we see iron workers as different from accountants?

30-year-long crackdown on American manufacturing jobs and the offshoring of American manufacturing jobs? 75% or more of manufacturing jobs are held by men, so this decline in manufacturing has affected far more men than women. Why is the 3-decade-long decline in manufacturing not referred to as a war on men? Because people have been trained by our culture to deny men as a gender.

Smart business decisions are not a war on anyone. Business decided it made more sense to offshore much unskilled or low skilled labor. While the recessions has hit us particularly hard, it has hit us hard because the skill set is no longer in demand. That is unfortunate business reality, not some concerted effort to impact the men of this country and to argue otherwise is essentially intellectually dishonest.

This is why there are so many people in our culture that scoff at the notion of men's rights. They have been trained their entire lives to discount the idea that there are issues that affect men as a gender, while at the same time being trained to always perceive anything that affects women as an issue for women as a gender.

I agree with you that people have been conditioned to discount the idea that there are issues that impact men as a gender. However, I disagree that referring to men by occupation but women by gender has anything to do with it.

As for the men's movement gaining credibility, we have a natural troll and white knight problem. We also have an ignorance problem -- very few people know the extent to which custody, child support, and alimony are fucked up. The rape discussion is naturally fragile and no person wants to be "soft on rape" so people get in "holier than thou" type contests.

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[–]iTroll_irl -3 points-2 points-1 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I get it. Women are gendered, men are de-gendered. I don't think it matters nearly as much as you.

Think about it. Have you ever in your life heard or read anyone describe the decline in American manufacturing jobs as a gender issue affecting men? No.

Actually, yes, I have. A couple years ago when they coined the term "mancession". I remember discussing it because I helped write a proposal about retooling education (community college and legit online education) because jobs that men were more likely to hold were ceasing to exist and wouldn't come back in adequate amounts -- because of sad, economic reality. A simple google search would have spared you this factually incorrect perception of yours. mancession

I'm not even going to read the rest of your response, because you're just annoying to deal with. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean they miss your point. Just because you didn't know something or didn't see something doesn't mean it others don't know or didn't see. That you have a point of view doesn't mean someone else's point of view is invalid.

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I'm a traditionalist MRA. I think that men have one role in society and women have another. Those roles are complimentary and together they advance society. Neither is really "fair" but it's what works.

And the better answer is to do what works. Return to traditional gender roles. I think it works best when both men and women have an expected role while still allowing exceptional individuals to work outside of those roles (think 1940'ish social discrimination rather than rule of law discrimination as exists in Islamic countries today).

The problem is, we're stuck. There's no real way to "go back" to traditional gender roles without going thru the collapse which will happen if we keep continuing as we are. Europe kinda has the opportunity to allow Islam to take over with a bloodless coup via reproduction rates (their totalitarianism is not ideal), but the USA is pretty much headed to a hard collapse into either anarchy or fascism.

[–]Celda 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Demonspawn1 point 15 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]KrisBW 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Traditionalism and the MRM are about as compatible as feminism and the MRM. You are a traditionalist, our enemy. You are of Cain, a betrayer of your own brethren. Go back to your traditionalist matriarchy you filthy dog.

Anyone who doesn't understand why we must view traditionalist's with the same level of contempt as we view feminist's needs to learn the truth about the gender war.

The Gender War has never been between men and women/boys and girl's. But between traditionalist and feminist women, with their respective lap dog's serving as proxies to enforce their will on other men and boy's.

Before the Industrial Revolution everyone worked. Different way's granted, but everyone pulled their weight. Well with the industrialization of America(sorry if this is America centric) families moved to the cities to get job's in factories. Well we all know how dangerous those early factories were. Also those early factories used a kind of piece work pay scheme. More you worked=more you get paid, so men in most cases made more then women and women in most cases made more then children.

Well after a decade women got fed up with it and started the "Mothers of the Republic" Women's rights movement. They wanted dominion over their husbands and children; and also to just be SAHM. They got what they wanted by stabbing the men's labor movement in the back. Set the labor movement back almost a century. Anyway women realized unless a vast majority of women sign up to be SAHM's the system would collapse(devaluation of labor because of too many people in the job market). So these women's rights activist's literally chased women(who later became feminist's) out of the work place.Employers reached a compromise where women could work, but would be paid less because they where women.

Fast forward to the 1970's after traditionalist's killed the ERA(to protect women's privileges) the feminist's orchestrated a new plan to defeat the traditionalist's. Poisoning the traditionalist's matriarchy's well. Aka poisoning America's boy's. The traditionalist's let this happened and used it to expand their own moral program on boy's(forcing 19th century masculine and feminine standards on boy's and young men) because to openly and truthfully fight against it would end the notion of the "feminine divine". Look at how quickly this traditionalist scum embraces totalitarianism. Because that is what these traditionalist's want.A traditional fascist state with a smiley face(Remember Nazi Germany was a Leftist traditionalist state).

They are our enemies, perhaps even bigger enemies then feminist's are. It is one thing to do something, to attack someone out of perceived desperation. But traditionalist's knowingly and willfully seek out to harm boy's, young men and men to protect their feminine divine ideology.

[–]Demonspawn1 point 15 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Woot, I have my first dedicated troll on reddit :)

The Gender War has never been between men and women/boys and girl's. But between traditionalist and feminist women, with their respective lap dog's serving as proxies to enforce their will on other men and boy's.

The "gender war" was over as soon as we became a two sexed species. Period.

Equality (of opportunity) doesn't exist and trying to set it up is a failure. Feminism (equality of outcome) can never exist and is a failure. Traditional gender roles (read: Equity) is the only system which allows civilization to exist and advance.

So say whatever the fuck you want but know this: we ARE returning to traditional gender roles. Period. Either we'll do so voluntarily or we'll do so after the needs of survival force us into it after the collapse feminism or your breed of the MRM will bring.

As for the rest of your post.. nice total swing and a miss. I'm mostly a Libertarian. Where I part from most is that I realize the truth that they don't want to admit to themselves: We could have a near-ideal Libertarian society in half a generation if we just repealed the 19th Amendment.

[–]misterdoctorproff -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]Demonspawn -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

I'm sorry, but I'm tired of dealing with morons today.

If you can't understand that when a woman gets pregnant that womb is tied up for 9 months (while the man is perfectly able to get another woman pregnant) then you are so fucking stupid that you should go fucking kill yourself to save the rest the world from having to deal with the fact that you've become an adult without understanding how basic fucking biological processes work.

If you are honestly that fucking tied to the idea that men and woman are the same that you can't comprehend that women get pregnant while men don't... go take that jump off a cliff. The rest of the world won't miss you.

Honestly... how did you become an adult without understanding this concept? Really... who fucked up on not teaching you these basic principles of biology?

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There is no reasoning with traditionalist's! That is your first mistake. Much like feminist's, the only way to deal with traditionalist's is to metaphorically kick their teeth down their throats whenever you come across this idiotic bigotry.

Much like feminist's will become hysterical to defend their concept of women being "eternal victims", traditionalist's will go hysterical trying to defend their "feminine divine". Your not just questioning his/her logic, your threatening demonspawns entire world view. Everything his/her life is based upon. So in a way your threatening demonspawns life, that is how ignorant and intentionally blind these dangerous extremist's are.

Boy's, young men and men will not have equality and freedom until the feminist's eternal victimhood ideology and traditionalist's eternal feminine divine ideology are utterly destroyed.

Traditionalist's have been spending the last decade trying to hijack the MRM just like what they did to the Tea Party movement. We must always be eternally vigilant against attempts by others to hinder or stall us. If they want to help us great, if not then traditionalist's aren't to be tolerated at all. They are nothing more then rabid human animal's. They are not even sentient, they do not deserve respect or consideration;except that which would be bestowed to a rabid dog that mauled a child to death.

[–]Demonspawn -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]misterdoctorproff -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

LOL Wow.

You really think your previous post didn't contain ad hominem attacks or straw man arguments?

You are one stupid motherfucker.

Go back to Wikipedia and read about the terms again. It's apparent I know more about them than you do.

But dude... really... just wow.

Yeah, I know. The truth. Like, wow. Really.

You did make it sound as though women asexually reproduce. I told you that you need sperm to go along with those wombs to make babies, and you go fucking ape-shit on how I somehow don't know how the fact that women being able to make less babies makes them more individually valuable in terms of reproduction, even though I never even implied that and was just educating you on simple shit 3rd grade kids learn about.

Tell the wizard to give you a heart, a brain, and a psychotherapist. Jesus H. Christ.

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There's always been a lot of self-martyrdom and also self-importance on both sides of the fence, especially in the 20th and 21st centuries. Before that, more often than not, it was all about the males. Even women staked grave importance on their raising of competent males (the first appearance in print of "behind every great man, there's a great woman" wasn't until the 40s.)

Especially now that we live in a mish mash of ethics and politics, its best never to be in a rush to point fingers.

I would be inclined to agree Hillary probably ACTUALLY considers herself a feminist, but this statement is nothing more than stoking the voter base.

Those that PRESCRIBE to this statement, see truth in it, well that's different... I'd say those people abandoned themselves to sorrow and in doing so abandoned the memory of those loved ones they lost. The 19 year old marine who dies in Khandahar or wherever is ALWAYS the primary victim of war. He's robbed not just of happiness, but of everything.

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[–]Demonspawn 27 points28 points29 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

http://clinton3.nara.gov/WH/EOP/First_Lady/html/generalspeeches/1998/19981117.html

In the ninth paragraph:

The experience that you have gone through is in many ways comparable to what happens with domestic violence. Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat. Women often have to flee from the only homes they have ever known. Women are often the refugees from conflict and sometimes, more frequently in today’s warfare, victims. Women are often left with the responsibility, alone, of raising the children. Women are again the victims in crime and domestic violence as well. Throughout our hemisphere we have an epidemic of violence against women, even though there is no longer any organized warfare that puts women in the direct line of combat. But domestic violence is now recognized as being the most pervasive human rights violation in the world. Here in El Salvador, according to the statistics gathered by your government, 1 in 6 women have been sexually assaulted and the number of domestic abuse complaints at just one agency topped 10,000 last year. Between 25 and 50 percent of women throughout Latin America have reportedly been victims of domestic violence.

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She's more out of date than anything else. This is a historical artifact.

Until relatively recently, women and children were often totally dependent on husbands and fathers because gainful employment was not available to most women. They had little opportunity to find work at the level which could support themselves and their families. I can't tell you how often I have read biographies of widows who found themselves suddenly plunged into poverty. The death of a male spouse was both a sorrow and an economic catastrophe for the wife and their children. Women cleaned, cooked, washed, ironed, sewed, all of which paid only pennies. often, even small children had to work. Wealthy or well educated women fared better but their numbers were few.

Of course, things are different now. Either spouse dying in combat today is equally bad.

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We're never really past it.

Deviation from traditional gender roles is a luxury for a civilization. Like all luxuries, it has a cost. This cost can be measured by social stability and rate of advancement compared to other civilizations. See, if we're far enough ahead, then it might make sense to relax these gender roles, right? Well sure, until some other civilization comes along and eats our lunch. Or when we get too far from the founding principles that made our civilization possible and we collapse like a Jenga stack.

And that latter situation is where we are today. Empire building is pretty faux pas and pretty much the entire western world has been doing this at the same time so we've been safe from being conquered. But our economy is suffering badly, our government is way too large, and we're about to face some serious reality soon by stepping way to far out of what made us work as a civilization in the first place.

And, funny enough, once we collapse we're going straight back to strict traditional gender roles, because that's what survival demands. So I like to use the adage: "feminism is a self-correcting social problem. It destroys the society it infests."

[–]rational_agent 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]vintermann 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I know you "won't argue with an idiot", but for the benefit of other people reading this thread:

In a modern society, as well as in a pre-sedentary society, it is highly unlikely that all your 100K women/my 75K women were having the 12 babies a woman can have in her lifetime if she really sets her mind to it. The nation that faces a relative shortage of women can compensate with each woman having more children in their lifetime.

Remember the barrel, the one they use to illustrate carrying capacity in biology, that can only hold as much water as its shortest plank? Uteruses are rarely in danger of becoming the limiting factor for reproduction. This was not an issue in the time we did most of our evolution, nor is it an issue today.

Frankly, I think that even in the time in between, although we had a population explosion (and thus uteruses may plausibly have been a limiting factor at some points), the explanation for devaluing men is more likely to have been people like you making the bogus argument that you're making, rather than any actual need.

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[–]vintermann -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It "saves" the lowest tier women from being forced to pair up with the lowest tier of men... instead these women can pair several tiers up.

Uh, no, it does not. Not when the premise is that the whole need for polygyny is that half the men are dead. Really, you're the one being an idiot here.

You do realize that twice as many women as men have reproduced in our genetic history, right?

That would probably depend on how far back you go. Give me a citation, and I'll see how well it supports your idea that wars are the explanation for the disparity.

Seriously, you claim to have all this knowledge of how ancient society worked and you don't know that monogamy is a modern invention?

I don't "know" it, because it isn't true. First of all, I'm talking prehistoric, not ancient (these are more accurate terms than you may believe). Monogamy is not a modern invention. The whole idea is absurd, as plenty of other animals are monogamous - it's a pre-human invention, and everywhere it exists at all in the animal kingdom, it is evidence of a situation where uteruses were not the limiting factor.

The only sense in which monogamy is a modern invention is if you only count monogamy with extreme (think Saudi-style) suppression of infidelity as monogamy. Hunter-gatherers are typically monogamous in the same sense we are (that is, mostly, but infidelity and divorce occurs), so it's likely that prehistoric humans were as well.

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Humans are not in anyway monogamous. Human males are naturally polygamous. Human females are naturally hypergamous.

In fact, hunter gatherer societies(which we have been for the larger part of our history) all over the world are fiercely egalitarian, and don't tolerate any sort of "alpha" behavior.

This shows you are completely clueless about anthropology.

Hunter gatherer societies are absolutely not egalitarian and are extremely violent. The real myth is that of the 'peaceful noble savage'.

And war does exist in pre agricultural societies in the form of tribal raids. In modern hunter gatherer societies it is normal for around 30% of males to die through raiding and murder.

And a tribal chief commands vast power. In fact the tribal chief is the real 'alpha male' that modern alpha's try to emulate. Not only do they rule their tribe but they also have multiple wives.

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Ah, thought so. War as we know it did not exist before the advent of agriculture, which happened very recently in evolutionary terms. So it can not explain biology ( it CAN explain culture, and I never said it couldn't).

How about you argue instead of saying "stop it"?

I'll say it again, as clearly as I can. If there is a shortage of men, one man can "replace" as many as necessary in purely reproductive terms. If there is a shortage of women, each remaining woman can "replace" about three women (by having more children than usual in a replacement scenario).

So, the supposed increased value of women on the band level only comes into play once more than two-thirds of them die, which means extremely rarely. Certainly not often enough to warrant first dibs on the lifeboats. That is a cultural phenomenon, not a biological one, and as such it can and should be changed.

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Title	Do you know what bugs me?
Author	PemCorgiSelphie
Upvotes	150
Comments	199
Date	July 7, 2011 8:44 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/iivrn/do_you_know_what_bugs_me/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/do-you-know-what-bugs-me.1037667 https://theredarchive.com/post/1037667

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