An exchange I had with my women's studies professor

AgentCircle · 2013-08-31T00:33:57+00:00

Unfortunately, it's a lot more common than it should be.

The problem with women's studies, and I think this expands into anything in "identity studies" (women's studies, black studies, jewish studies, etc.) runs the risk of injecting the personal. It's one thing to be a feminist, and teach a women's studies class, but if they are unable to separate their personal identity and politics from the scholarly critique and analysis of gender, then the class becomes less about learning and more about being a better X (whether X is feminist, black person, jew, you get the idea). If the professor mentions that feminists believe in the gender-wage gap, well that's true, feminists do believe that (by all means, bring up alternative views of gender, discuss, that's what college classes are for). But for the professor to let her own views of gender cloud scholarly critique, it's a bad sign. And she's not the only one.

AnnArchist · 2013-08-30T23:56:10+00:00

ANNNNND youre going to fail that class.

nickb64 · 2013-08-31T02:11:10+00:00

This quote is not about men's rights, but I think it's relevant to this issue (if you swapped out some terms, the idea remains the same):

Over the past two decades, the topic of censorship on campus has often been treated as a "conservative issue," because the fact is that socially conservative opinions are the ones most likely to be stifled at colleges and universities today. While many attempts at censorship are apolitical, you are far more likely to get in trouble on campus for opposing, for example, affirmative action, gay marriage, and abortion rights than you are for supporting them. Political correctness has become part of the nervous system of the modern university and it accounts for a large number of the rights violations I have seen over the years.

For decades, our universities have been teaching students that speech with a chance of offending someone should be immediately silenced; but the slope for offensiveness has proven remarkably slippery, and the concept of hurtful speech is often invoked by campus administrators in the most self serving ways...

Why is it odd that a liberal should fight for free speech rights? Isn't freedom of speech a quintessentially liberal issue? Some members of the baby boomer generation may be horrified to learn that campus administrators and the media alike often dismiss those of us who defend free speech for all on campus as members of the conservative fringe. While I was once hissed at during a libertarian student conference for being a Democrat, it is far more common that I am vilified as an evil conservative for defending free speech on campus.

I remember telling an NYU film student that I worked for free speech on campus and being shocked by his response: "Oh, so you're like the people who want the KKK on campus." In his mind, protecting free speech was apparently synonymous with advocating hatred. He somehow missed the glaring fact that the content of his student film could have been banned from public display if not for the progress of the free speech movement.

The transformation of free speech on campus to a conservative niche issue is a method of dismissing its importance. Sadly we live in a society where simply labeling something an evil conservative idea (or, for that matter, and evil liberal one) is accepted by far too many people as a legitimate reason to dismiss it. This is just one of many of the cheap tactics for shutting down debate that have been perfected on our campuses and are now a common part of everyday life.

Greg Lukianoff, FIRE President, in his book Unlearning Liberty

Thil · 2013-08-30T23:50:29+00:00

Yes, it's the norm.

Basically what you've discovered is that feminists, especially the academic ones, do not care about statistics, or facts.

They care about narrative. Their narrative is that women are paid less than men. They will do anything to preserve that narrative.

It doesn't matter that the "wage gap" doesn't take into account women's choices, more sick days, more family time, more family oriented lifestyles, working less hours than men etc.... what matters is that sound bite of "well we're paid less than you".

That matters to them, because feminism is the ideology they have bought in to. If they started admitting "hmm well maybe there isn't a wage gap", they would soon find themselves coming to some unwelcome conclusions, which they absolutely will never let themselves do.

because_misogyny · 2013-08-31T00:40:56+00:00

Facts very, very rarely win out over feels.

2013-08-31T02:40:25+00:00

Drop the class or shelve your dignity and regurgitate what she tells you right or wrong.

You can go to the dean, but if she is a big deal as you say, then it won't go in your favor.

I repeat, drop the class. It would be worth telling the dean why you are dropping it through. Let the dean confront her with the same evidence and see what happens.

ThePigman · 2013-08-31T00:27:07+00:00

"Is this normal for women's studies?"

No, it isn't normal -- this woman sounds unusually reasonable for a feminist professor. Most of them would have shut you down by screaming "misogyny" as soon as you disagreed with them.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2013-08-31T01:08:16+00:00

I think something is being overlooked. She didn't qualify why she chose the liberal side.

You would have to press her-respectfully-that what she provided were not studies so she did not provide any liberal studies-that she accepts-for you to even consider, and asking her why she accepts the liberal side, and to remind her that an argument is valid or invalid regardless of who presents it so who does the study should not matter, and if it's based not on who did the study but the results then she's agreeing with liberal studies because she's already decided on what she thinks is right.

In either case, the reasons she gave are not logical. That doesn't make her position wrong inherently, but that they're not well supported.

ManicMuffin · 2013-08-31T00:16:17+00:00

Is this normal for women's studies

Yes. I've heard this same story countless times.

Women's studies is not a place where you go to to study facts and data. It is where you go to study feminist theory.

The only way you will pass that class is by showing that you can regurgitate feminist lies accurately. Independent thought or analysis will be slammed as misogynistic, or as she said 'conservative'. (Fucking hilarious how feminists brand everyone who disagrees with them 'conservative'. I am not conservative in the slightest.)

The 73% stat has been completely and utterly debunked by many people, many times over, and it is not 'conservative data', whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean - there are only two types of accurate data; complete, or incomplete, and taking the average salary for women and comparing it to the average salary for men with no consideration for the types of jobs, the hours or years of experience is very much incomplete data. Despite the fact that it has been debunked, feminist university professors are still preaching it as truth. In what other fields of study does that happen? Where else is something proven false, or even reasonably contested taught to college level students as fact with no mention of the other argument?

Only in religion and political dogma do you see this kind of reality denial and suppression.

Unless you are capable of the intellectual dishonesty needed to just parrot the professor and talk like a good feminist, you are not passing that class while there's an MRA bone in your body. You are there to be indoctrinated and nothing else.

JaydenPope · 2013-08-31T01:20:48+00:00

When you or her say women, do you mean married or single ?

Single women that are childless actually make more money than men, only when women marry and have children is when they start to lose money due to commitments to raising the family.

The_Patriarchy · 2013-08-31T12:39:51+00:00

When I was in school, all students were required to take either African American Studies, or Women's Studies. I took WS. Long story short, I had a similar exchange with the prof after class (over Viagra). She just disregarded actual facts with some bullshit as well. I don't know how common it actually is, but your experience resonates with my own. For what it's worth, this doesn't mean you'll fail the class...I wound up with an A. Just parrot whatever bullshit they say and you'll be fine.

For those that want the specifics of the incident:

We were going over something in the textbook and it claimed that Viagra was proof that pharmaceutical companies spent more money researching trivial male problems like erectile dysfunction instead of life-threatening female problems like breast cancer. Anyway, she made a big huge point of this in class. I didn't want to be that annoying person who wastes everyone's time arguing with the teacher during class-time, so I waited until class was over and approached her desk to speak with her.

I used to work in a cigar shop and had actually met one of the guys who discovered Viagra. He personally told me the story of its discovery. For those that don't know, they were actually researching a treatment for some gender-neutral heart condition. They noticed the male subjects had rock-solid erections as a side-effect and realized that they had found something which could be MUCH more profitable than heart medicine. The story was told to me in more colorful language, but that's the gist of it.

So I related the Viagra story to her, and asked if she could maybe get the textbook corrected, or at least let the class know what was up. She completely dismissed it. I don't remember exactly what she said, but it wasn't full coherent and I could tell I caught her a bit off-guard. If I had to approximate her words, it would be something like "that doesn't mean anything...pharmaceutical corporations make other drugs for men and don't care about women". After she spoke, I realized I wasn't dealing with a reasonable person. This was probably apparent on my face because everything else is, and I just said something like "uhh...okay", then stepped back and noped the fuck out of there.

This was around 2004/2005, so it wasn't yet as obvious just how much more funding was put into breast cancer and Gardasil wasn't yet a household name.

bl1y · 2013-08-31T13:22:07+00:00

Slate article that demolishes the gender wage gap myth

ArstanWhitebeard · 2013-08-30T23:49:56+00:00

This person does not sound very intelligent, but I cannot say whether this response is representative of many feminist ways of thinking. My advice is to bring this story to a logic professor and see what he or she says about it.

hockeyrugby · 2013-08-31T03:22:00+00:00

Hey bud, I am planning on taking a womens studies class. Being in my last year of school I am getting ready for this and will do my best to sit down and shut up and "take it like a man". But at least I will have tried to drink the kool aid. That being said. You will come across other profs and classes you do not agree with or who have theories that suck etc... Just sit back get a good understanding of it and hopefully you will grasp, understand, and be able to retort better in the future. I am very sorry that this is your first taste of academia but sadly if it is womens studies or American History sometimes you will just need to sit back take a swig of what your prof says. I know it sucks because universities used to be a place where ideas could be talked about and discussed but less so now a days.

NakedAndBehindYou · 2013-08-31T04:50:55+00:00

Is this normal for women's studies?

Yes. Welcome to the world of the feminism brain (or lack thereof).

BillC618 · 2013-08-31T06:26:34+00:00

She entirely disregarded every study I linked(I doubt she read them) by saying they were conservative. "Data, analysis, conclusions etc. can all be either liberal or conservative and I choose the liberal side."(paraphrasing).

Please tell me that you have this on email! If you do, this is pure gold. Consider sending it to Christina Hoff Sommers, Warren Farrell, or some other important MRM supporter.

2013-08-31T06:42:56+00:00

You have 2 options, pretend to be another mindless zombie and re-gurgitate their lies for a good mark.

OR you can do something, that although might fail you, will be worthwhile, you need to fully participate in the class, but call them on their bullshit. Question all the bullshit they continuously say, many of the questions in tasks/tests will be loaded (for example "how to fix the wage gap", any answer that doesn't challenge the assumption agrees with it) so disagree with the question.

You need to get students on your side to, next class bring in 20 or so (I have no idea how big your class is) copies of the studies that disprove the wage gap myth. If you have to hand them out after class.

Whatever you do do it proporly, no use trying to half arse both methods, you will only fail at both.

JayBopara · 2013-08-31T06:47:25+00:00

iamknowman keep on correcting these ideologues and bigots. Write about it in your essays, and then tell us your marks. Take it all the way up to the hierarchy of your university if they give you poor marks. Do it. DO IT! Behind you all the way.

nick012000 · 2013-08-31T10:59:01+00:00

I am a freshman in college and am taking a women's studies 101(don't judge, it's easy and it fits my schedule).

Drop the class, seriously. The fact that it's just feminist indoctrination aside, the point of university is to give you the education to get a job. If you don't think that this class will help you with that, it's just a waste of money, no matter how easy it is.

onkelskrues · 2013-08-31T11:12:32+00:00

I highly suggest that you google search the glass ceiling. You will find a bunch of studies proving that there isn`t one. Then send those studies to her.

Pecanpig · 2013-08-31T00:48:00+00:00

Is this normal for women's studies?

Yes, this is the norm and should be expected.

rightsbot · 2013-08-30T23:46:17+00:00

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Perpetual_dissident · 2013-08-31T06:06:29+00:00

the census bureau of labor is a branch of the tea party and the illuminaty didnt you know

Seand0r · 2013-08-31T07:09:09+00:00

Hah! Easy? The one class that covered female and LGBT studies that I took was one of, if not the most difficult class I took. To be honest it was one of my favorites, I learned a lot.

It sounds like she might be stuck in her way of thinking, but at the same time she doesn't seem aggressively against what your'e saying. In fact, sounds like she's been pretty reasonable by continuing the conversation outside of class. Count yourself as lucky. Keep us posted!

2013-08-31T13:43:39+00:00

So, be careful here. How weird this is depends on what you sent her in the first place. If you sent her non-peer-reviewed material, as an academic, she's entitled (obligated even) to say that it's nonsense. One way she can say that is by saying, essentially, given conflicting non-authoritative sources (not peer-reviewed sources) choosing one is as arbitrary as choosing the other because they both have zero value in an academic environment, so, presented that choice, she chose the liberal bias. If this is what is happening, she's being "clever" with you. In my opinion, it's not a great teaching technique, but some profs do this. What you need to do is present peer-reviewed material and tell her that news sources are "not convincing in an academic context".

However, if you already provided peer-reviewed material and that's how she responded, there is a serious problem and you may want to get her to put her response in writing because it is deeply unprofessional.

Also consider she isn't necessarily privileging her view over yours. She may be implying that as the evidence stands, her view is just as valid as yours, and she's waiting for you to get your shit together and come back with something stronger, something more convincing. As a student, you are obliged to respond in the most generous manner possible, and assuming this is her intent is a good way to do that.

General lecture about surviving in the Humanities

You'll find that in the Humanities, getting along with others in a constructive manner is weighted heavier than being right. Coherency, clarity, and COLLEGIALITY. Demonstrate these, always. What's "true"? That matters at the Phd level and out in the real world. Forget that, for now.

RogueWedge · 2013-08-31T15:47:58+00:00

mind citing the studies you sent?

sens1t1vethug · 2013-08-31T17:31:40+00:00

Do you think she suggested talking more after the class just so that the other students wouldn't hear your point of view?

2013-08-31T18:23:40+00:00

On what basis did she claim the scientific research was conservative, was it funded by a conservative think tank or does she just emotionally disagree with the findings?

Nutz76 · 2013-08-31T18:38:15+00:00

So she's admitting to dogma guiding her, not facts.

Nutz76 · 2013-08-31T18:48:47+00:00

So she's admitting to dogma guiding her, not facts.

bl1y · 2013-08-31T20:24:38+00:00

I took a class on feminist jurisprudence in law school and I pointed out that one of the studies we were discussing used only anecdotal data, and none of the data was published or available for peer review.

The professor's response was "We just accept the conclusions because it's So-And-So-Brand-Name-Feminist." ...Fuckin' ay.

DavidByron · 2013-09-01T08:11:47+00:00

don't judge

Judging things is what I do, or I wouldn't be here and neither would you.

cobysan · 2013-08-30T23:52:18+00:00

This is called hamstering. Women at times when confronted with facts they don't like make up stuff to justify it. It is fruitless except to further their beliefs, just like a hamster running on it's wheel is egaging in a fruitless effort.

ManicMuffin · 2013-08-30T23:52:08+00:00

I am a freshman in college and am taking a women's studies 101(don't judge, it's easy and it fits my schedule)

I am judging. You are a weasel and your generation is shit.

2013-08-31T01:53:06+00:00

Firstly I'm not sure what this has to do with men's rights, the "feminist can't logic" comments aren't pro-men they're just feminist-bashing. Anyway, I've never taken a women's studies course and can't really argue with an anecdotal example, unless you could provide the links you exchanged?

FeministBees · 2013-08-31T09:31:10+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	An exchange I had with my women's studies professor
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	85
Comments	137
Date	August 30, 2013 11:44 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1lfldq/an_exchange_i_had_with_my_womens_studies_professor/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/an-exchange-i-had-with-my-womens-studies-professor.1165046 https://theredarchive.com/post/1165046

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General lecture about surviving in the Humanities