Domestic Violence | PurplePillDebate

vegansoymilk · 2023-11-13T09:47:50+00:00

According to Australian domestic violence statistics at least one in three are men. The report also documents that the injuries to both men and women are very...

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I don’t agree. Men not showing up absolutely 100% IS an indication of demand. The need may be there. I’m not saying DV on men doesn’t exist. But NO ONE gets to complain we don’t offer services when we do… for two whole years… and no one even walks through the door.

It’s also not lack of reach. We have 9k residents. We have our own local radio station & newspaper, both stupidly involved in community affairs. You’d have to be blind, deaf & dumb not to know we had shelters and DV programs for both men and women. The shelter partnered with every social agency & first responder in town.

And your immediate need to blame everyone else makes me incredibly angry on behalf all the people who got blood from a stone (money) to fund running that for 2 years while zero people used it. The people who got donations from local businesses to not only pay for the services, rent, utilities, etc., but also to furnish rooms comfortably and make it look nice and not some run-down hotel. The person who found & recruited a male DV counselor, who coordinated all male staff & volunteers.

When I say they did everything they could, I meant it. So unless you’re going to share your foolproof method to make it work and get your approval, please realize what you’re doing is horrible for programs in general, and men in the long run. YOU are perpetuating the fear/shame/distrust. YOU are blaming everyone else. YOU are telling us we shouldn’t bother because nothing’s ever going to be good enough.

I have the stats. 4 phone calls. One visit to get a flyer (flyers only list services offered, emergency and non-emergency phone numbers and hours open). Zero clients.

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Your half-hearted “olive branch” still ended with another blame statement (lack of reach) with zero basis in fact. You just cannot stop blaming others and admit that sometimes, even when ALL the right things are being done, men have to be responsible for accepting the help offered.

Yes, men’s services are scarcer than women’s. But sometimes that’s because they’re not using them. For whatever reasons. But you have to stop blaming everyone else, all the time. You’re not helping. Not the people trying to offer the services. Not the men who need them. You’re too busy assigning blame and shutting down everyone’s efforts.

How about you tell me your foolproof plans? How our services are supposed to be better?

When one wants to be a victim, one will find a way. I’m not going to take the blame so you can be the victim. Women have been doing that too long. And in this particular case, when I’ve put blood, sweat & tears into something, I’m not going to meekly accept you running it down with zero basis or experience of it and say thank you for the crumb of half hearted acceptance that maybe we’re “one of the good ones”.

You, instead of just saying you were wrong, or that you made unfair assumptions, try to turn it around and attack me for making “bad faith and uncharitable mischaracterizations” about you. Excuse me?! WTF have you been doing this entire time about a program you know NOTHING about but bashed & blamed from the first mention? You show me where I made a “bad faith” mischaracterization. I based everything I’ve said on your own comments. Whereas you’ve based every complaint of the service & organization based on your own biases and prejudices, not from any fact whatsoever.

I’m done with this conversation. I spend my time volunteering to help those who want help. Not to defend those efforts from someone with a chip on their shoulder the hulk couldn’t lift.

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I'm saying we should question how these services actually work and improve them. I mean I can't even judge what you're saying if I don't know what kind of theories/framework they were using to provide these services. If you're saying "they did everything they could" I would like to know what that actually means. I'm skeptical for a reason. A lot of these services are more concerned with "teaching men how not to abuse women" rather than helping men who where abused by a woman. A lot of the time "we did everything we could" means "we can't possibly criticize or deflect from feminist theories because our personal belief system is more important than actually helping someone".

And yes if you provide a service to people in vulnerable positions and they don't use your service the first step should be to blame the effectiveness of your service, and not the vulnerable people themselves.

[–]AriesProductionsPurple Pill Woman 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

No one even came in to find out!!!!! I can’t seem to get this through your head.

It was a service for men. Designed BY MEN who’d experienced DV. Funded privately & through government grants (grants, not programs). Advertised TO men who experienced DV or thought they may be in an abusive relationship. Counseling was offered but it wasn’t mandatory.

So honestly, miss me with this “it’s everyone else’s fault”. If we do nothing, it’s our fault for not providing support to men. If we try to do anything it’s not good enough even if you don’t know WTF it involved. You’re saying “improve the service” but a) you don’t know what it offered or how it was run and b) if no one even tries it, how does anyone know what, if anything, needs to be improved?

You literally sound like all you want is someone to blame for men not accepting help.

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Why? Is it that weird that people lose their trust when so much sexism exists?

Compare it to women not going to religious counselors. Is it weird that they don't wanna go to someone who endorses a religion that is essentially misogynistic?

Many men simply feel like they cannot trust anyone with this problem. That's really not just their own fault. If anything when I experienced DV my trust in people completely dropped to an all time low and it never recovered. Before that I used to trust easily and I would seek help, after that I realized that as a man you're usually alone and you can't trust anyone but yourself. Idk what it takes to get yall to understand how big this problem actually goes. How can you even expect men to trust anyone when they live in society where they can be arrested as a perpetrator by the police even when they called for help as a victim? How can you expect men to trust societal institutions when all of them are sexist when it comes to this problem, including academia? It's the same level of lack of empathy as people had during covid for people who are scared of vaccines, completely ignoring that these people usually belong to minority groups that have very real trauma in their family of being experimented on by governments. Men are not going to trust counselors, therapists, police departments, academics etc as long as they are complicit in perpetuating the very sexist bias that prevents men from seeking help in the first place.

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[–]Maffioze25M egalitarian -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

commented elsewhere, but I think the prevailing belief that many hold when hearing about a male DV victim is, “How did you get beat up by a woman?“ And then followed by more shaming.

The prevailing belief is rather that you must have done something to made her do it. Or simply that you're lying.

But society hasn’t gotten to the point where they take male victims seriously, and in some cases, these men are even mocked. So many victims are likely embarrassed to come forward and report their assaults and then to get the help they need. Society’s attitudes need to change. This wasn’t on the DV center or their counselors.

Yes this is all true but this has all been made significantly worse by feminists and their theories and policies. Counselors as well are often trained in sexist ways. Please step back from defending feminists and look at it objectively. I'm not saying you need to reject your feminist identity but nothing can change if people can't even acknowledge the people who have a responsibility for causing this problem. It's truly awful what they did when it comes to this topic. I don't think we men can do anything without getting people to acknowledge that.

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[–]Maffioze1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well i'm not the one who's doing that, you are, or rather you're ignoring a big factor in it. Your feminist identity is more important than acknowledging the truth, and that's honestly just sad. Its exactly because of this that male victims are not getting actual help. There have been literal women who studied this topic, tried to help men, only to be bullied, harrassed, forced out of the country, had their dog killed etc. all by people who identify as feminists. And here you are telling yourself that what i'm saying isn't true even though its all true and you could just look it up yourself. It only takes a day out of your life to read up on it, but you probably won't and instead you keep trying to defend people who simply don't deserve to be defended.

Idk what else to tell you than that you're ignorant on this topic. I experienced partner abuse for years, and afterwards I started reading. I have spend days and days reading papers about it, because I wanted to understand and to actually do something. You should really read it all in totality yourself, its one of the most awfull things that are currently happening towards men and its largely perpetuated by feminists. Its not actually going to help you, or women, to blindly defend feminists from things they observably did, all it will do is push men towards the rightwing, and make people think your movement is hatefull, because you're condoning/excusing hate.

[–]Jambi1913Purple Pill Woman 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

It sounds like you have had a traumatic experience with this personally and I’m sorry you’ve been through that. But I think it is making you somewhat biased here.

If you look at it historically, you should find some hope because until relatively recently women also were met with stigma and blame if they came forward about sexual assault or domestic violence. It may look like everyone supports women victims now (which is not 100% true, but certainly far better than it was) but we had generations of women that found it extremely hard to come forward because they were often blamed and shamed for their assaults. The assumption was often that they had “asked for it” or deserved to be “disciplined” by their partner. Marital rape was legal right up until the early 90s and it was quite routine for domestic violence to be dismissed by police as a “private matter”. The climate was not friendly to women coming out to accuse a man of domestic violence or assault.

What changed it was a combination of changes to laws and public attitudes towards victims, and the courage of women themselves coming forward and challenging the stigma and pushing back on the pervasive victim blaming mentality. A lot of women still didn’t come forward because they couldn’t face the inevitable questioning of their character and the blowback to their reputation and their family.

But we are seeing signs of all this going in the right direction for men now too. There is far more public awareness and discourse around men being victims of domestic violence and sexual assault and I have certainly heard and read more about the police, etc being educated in taking male victims seriously. It is not as bleak as you are painting it - at least not on a macro level.

There is a very long way to go, but things are changing and you can’t truly continue to only lay blame on everyone else for male victims not seeking help. The men themselves need to try to come forward and find the resources and support that does exist and challenge the stigmas. It is immensely difficult - not least because often other men are the most resistant to challenging these stigmas. It’s toxic masculinity 101 to paint male victims of female violence as “sissies” and not “real men” or tell boys who have been raped by their female teachers they are “lucky” and “I would have loved that when I was 15!” I have heard men on podcasts (like Joe Rogan) say exactly that.

But there are clearly efforts to challenge and change these attitudes. Blaming feminism or women in general or saying that there’s too much sexism towards men in society, so it’s simply impossible for men to come forward is a defeatist attitude. Nothing will change if men give up and stay silent.

[–]Maffioze25M egalitarian -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Where are you seeing things getting better? All I see is things getting worse? There are barely any efforts, just virtue signalling and low effort approaches. If anything the police is being educated to do the opposite.

Why can't we hold the people accountable who created this mess, these people are feminists? Why is it always this same old "men need to seek help"? I don't want people's help because I don't trust them, and I dont trust them because they treat us like shit. This whole post is full of victim blaming, and I'm pushing against it yet appearantly it's not the right kind of pushing against it.

Is it really so damn hard for people to say "this shit is terrible, men are being treated badly, they don't get proper help, therapy fails them, the feminists have created a terrible domestic violence policy and should be held accountable, we have to fix these problems"? How in the actual fuck are people talking about "men don't seek help" more than these problems? This is victim blaming by portraying problems that are external as self-inflicted, this is what it is, the thing that starts and ends your experience with dv, or rather it just never fucking ends. Not a single group of people is treated like this today in Western countries except for men. Would you go to a doctor that misdiagnoses you each time? You wouldn't.

I genuinely don't get it. How can you expect people to trust people that treat them like this. Why would I not just deal with everything myself and open up maybe to one or 2 people I can trust rather than go through yet another round of victim blaming. Yall completely don't understand what it is like to live as a man in this situation. You don't know what it is like to be seen as a stoic, self-reliant rock that can never be perceived as a victim. You don't know what it's like to have people act like your issues were all self-inflicted and to have them make you take responsibility for the actions of other people because acknowledgment you were a victim of someone else can never happen from the moment you turn 14. Then you think that adding yet another layer of portraying it as self-inflicted on top of this by saying "well actually it's mens fault, they don't seek help" is somehow helpfull and productive????? You think men should seek help but you don't get why men are immediately turned off when they are talked about in this manner by people that supposedly wanna help them? No one puts any effort in actually winning men's trust, they are just blamed once more.

Blaming feminists is exactly me not staying silent, or are you saying men should either be silent or censor themselves and the truth?

[–]Jambi1913Purple Pill Woman 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Can you explain why you think it is getting worse? Why is it all the fault of feminism? You don’t think there is a major role being played by male attitudes to this as well? It’s all at the feet of women and feminism that men are not taken seriously? I find that hard to see myself.

Where is the evidence it’s improving, you ask? For one thing, years ago domestic violence was 100% considered to mean male-on-female violence. Today it is not - it is explicitly talked about as a non-gendered issue (even though more women are affected by men - reportedly, it has to be said). There is also far more female-on-male violence and sexual assault being officially reported and researched than in the past. In my country, there are several groups dedicated to helping men only - not only with being victims of domestic violence but also in fighting for custody of their children and caring for their mental health in male-focussed ways. There are infinitely more discussions about all of this than there used to be. There was recently a AskFeminists post about “Is men’s liberation necessary” and many of the top comments said “yes - particularly for men’s mental health and attitudes about men needing to hide their feelings and victimisation to save face”.

It’s not enough, but if you don’t see any of this as heading in the right direction, then I don’t know what to tell you. Calling it all “virtue signalling” is just dismissive and unhelpful. Just like with women, it’s not going to change overnight - it takes time for attitudes and biases to change.

What do you want to see done? How do you think we can support men better to come forward? What help can we offer that is truly helpful to men and not just expecting men to respond like women?

[–]Maffioze25M egalitarian 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Can you explain why you think it is getting worse? Why is it all the fault of feminism? You don’t think there is a major role being played by male attitudes to this as well? It’s all at the feet of women and feminism that men are not taken seriously? I find that hard to see myself.

Do you know what people are actually doing? Just because your gut feeling is that things are getting better doesn't mean that's actually the case. The VAWA is recently passed, it focuses completely on women. The Istanbul convention is being ratified, it frame the problem as gendered. Multiple European countries are introducing laws that discriminate against male victims.

It's not all the fault of feminism but it's mainly their fault and even more so the fault of people who continue to make excuses for them. I don't trust anyone who does that and anyone who does that is not practicing what they preach when they claim "I care about male victims". That's why its nothing but virtue signalling, you can find that dismissive of me, but that's simply the truth. I was always taught that actions speak louder than words, and I make no exception here. And yes male attitudes play a role as well but that's the only thing people ever wanna talk about because then they can blame men for it again.

Where is the evidence it’s improving, you ask? For one thing, years ago domestic violence was 100% considered to mean male-on-female violence. Today it is not - it is explicitly talked about as a non-gendered issue (even though more women are affected by men - reportedly, it has to be said).

I don't think that's true at all. Its getting more and more seen as a gendered issue.

There is also far more female-on-male violence and sexual assault being officially reported and researched than in the past.

Do you have actually proof? I don't think this is the case sorry.

In my country, there are several groups dedicated to helping men only - not only with being victims of domestic violence but also in fighting for custody of their children and caring for their mental health in male-focussed ways.

I can't speak on that as I don't know.

There was recently a AskFeminists post about “Is men’s liberation necessary” and many of the top comments said “yes - particularly for men’s mental health and attitudes about men needing to hide their feelings and victimisation to save face”.

I'm sorry but AskFeminists? One of the most hatefull, sexist and hostile subs on reddit? I'm sure they said yes to a completely abstract question that requires zero action or self-reflection on their part and yes its nothing but virtue signalling. This is a sub that believes "women are the primary victims of war", that claims "gender based oppression of men doesn't exist" and that can't ever stop whining about even menslib for not being feminist enough and for being too misogynistic (menslib btw did an AMA what a so called expert that claimed male victims don't exist). I recognize you have good intentions but please stop being so blind to how bigoted these people are. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Why would anyone trust that the statements of AskFeminists about men are anything but virtue signalling? Heck why would any men trust someone who thinks they should trust these people in the first place? It's an unrealistic and unfair expectation to have if you're saying I have to trust them when their actions and the things they support completely contradict what they are saying. It's like expecting a jew to take it seriously when a group of nazi sympathisers says they support the fight against antisemitism. Of course they don't do that.

It’s not enough, but if you don’t see any of this as heading in the right direction, then I don’t know what to tell you. Calling it all “virtue signalling” is just dismissive and unhelpful. Just like with women, it’s not going to change overnight - it takes time for attitudes and biases to change.

Calling it virtue signalling is accurate in the majority of cases. I'm sorry the world isn't as great as you wish it was, but that's not my fault. And yes I agree it's not going to change overnight. I just don't believe it's likely that it will ever change. That doesn't mean I have given up tbh.

What do you want to see done? How do you think we can support men better to come forward? What help can we offer that is truly helpful to men and not just expecting men to respond like women?

People need to stop using sexist approaches to domestic violence. It needs to be talked about in a non-gendered manner. Equal funding needs to go to male victims. The police should stop arresting male victims. All these bigots in power should be fired and it should be acknowledged that feminists are often misandrists. As long as that doesn't happen, the problem will not go away and saying "men need to seek help" really doesn't cut it.

[–]Jambi1913Purple Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Maffioze25M egalitarian 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, I don't think I'm being too pessimistic. The world is just pretty awfull. It's for women as well.

What are the laws that discriminate against male victims?

I will send you a link in DM. I can't send it on this sub.

I didn’t say you need to trust anyone. I just think you need to be less pessimistic and see the little glimmers of hope around the place. But, that’s just how I work - finding the good in people and the world is important to me. Online it’s unfortunately sometimes hard to find that - but it is there.

For some things you can do that but for male victims of abuse there is just very little hope. I used to be a very hopeful person who always saw the good in people but that was all destroyed when I experienced partner abuse and everything around it. Nothing has ever blackpilled me more than this experience. Not only are you blamed for everything, you're also blamed for logically closing yourself off from that blame. It's just awfull.

[–]Jambi19131 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I’m really very sorry for what happened to you. Men who are victims of partner abuse should not be taken less seriously or subject to victim blaming any more than female victims.

I don’t “blame” you for closing yourself off - it is very hard not to when you are traumatised and gaslit. I only question whether there is a different approach or perspective that might help you get back some of your old optimism. There are terrible things in the world and unfair laws and mainstream narratives - but losing your hope and optimism is unhelpful, I think?

Anyway, I will certainly be opposing any biased laws in my own country that disadvantage male victims of abuse. The fact remains that women are more likely to face violence from a male partner, but that doesn’t mean male victims should be treated any differently when they come forward to make allegations and ask for help.

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Ask yourself why a men’s movement hasn’t been organized by men to address their issues?

Because every time it gets derailed and kneecapped by feminism.

Sure, there’s a men’s rights movement in name, but it seems like all they really do is talk about their problems. Talk doesn’t get you very far.

Yep, because every time they try and organize IRL they get called misogynistic, incels, violent, and patriarchal, and get derailed and kneecapped by feminism.

Men need to get together and create an organization that really works to implement solutions to various problems, including male victims of DV.

Is there literally any other group of victims that you would tell them "you need to unfuck yourself on your own with no sympathy or support from us"?

So why hasn’t this happened? It‘s not on women to do the work for you.

You are aware that half of all feminists are men, and that men have done a ton to help women and women's rights issues yes?

Isn't it massively hypocritical to just take for granted all the help men gave women, and then turn around and say that men aren't entitled to any help, support, or empathy from women?

It seems to me your misandry is showing.

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[–]Maffioze25M egalitarian 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Feminism is a woman’s movement. Of course it’s going to focus its efforts on women’s issues, including female victims of domestic violence.

They didn't just do this and if you think they did just this you're not educated enough on the topic. Besides this separation of men and women isn't even possible in practice. The moment you're suggesting female victims are more important you're being sexist and inherently harming male victims as well. I'm tired of people pretending this somehow makes logical sense when it's just awfull sexism wrapped up in nice sounding language.

Ask yourself why a men’s movement hasn’t been organized by men to address their issues? Sure, there’s a men’s rights movement in name, but it seems like all they really do is talk about their problems. Talk doesn’t get you very far.

Why? Because people react with hostility to the idea that men can be victims and that they are not independent and self-reliant. Most people care more about women than about men. This is the main reason.

Men need to get together and create an organization that really works to implement solutions to various problems, including male victims of DV. So why hasn’t this happened? It‘s not on women to do the work for you.

Do you have any clue what actually happens when they do that? And I'm so tired of this gender wars bullshit. Why exactly should a woman care more about another woman just because she shares the same genitals? Why should a man care more about another man because he shares the same genitals? Why can't we just use a science based approach with consistent moral rules of equality towards societal issues instead of this disgusting gender nationalism that only results in additional suffering? What you're saying doesn't even make sense either. No one is asking women to do the work, they should just simply stop defending and excusing awfull sexism because they identify with feminism. The feminists in power haven't just ignored men, they have actively harmed them and you would know that if you were actually educated on this. But as usual its just ridiculous defensiveness instead of actually acknowledging the problem.

[–]TSquaredRecoversBlue Pill Woman 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

All I’m hearing is excuses.

First all, nowhere—and I mean nowhere—did I imply that female victims are more important than male victims. I don’t appreciate you implying I said something that I didn’t. I do not believe that at all anyway. I 100% support male victims of domestic violence.

You just sound angry that feminism exists. To that I say tough shit. Most groups of people have a movement that addresses the issues that affect them personally. Women are no different.

And lastly, this is where the excuses come into play. If there are issues that impact men, then you guys need to come together and form a movement. Feminism tackled issues related to female domestic violence. Create your own movement and do the work necessary to implement solutions. Women did what they needed to help female victims. Men are more than capable of organizing a group to tackle issues that affect themselves. But no, guys like you would rather bitch about feminism than actually do something productive to address the issue.

[–]Maffioze25M egalitarian 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

First all, nowhere—and I mean nowhere—did I imply that female victims are more important than male victims. I don’t appreciate you implying I said something that I didn’t. I do not believe that at all anyway. I 100% support male victims of domestic violence.

No but thats what feminism effectively did. If you're lobbying for policies to become gendered in favour of women, you're harming male victims. If you spread an unscientific model of domestic violence that frames men as perpetrators by default, you're harming male victims. If you train the police so that they arrest men by default, you're harming male victims. You can't selectively care about women without harming men. Stop trying to avoid responsibility, the person who is making excuses here is you.

You just sound angry that feminism exists. To that I say tough shit. Most groups of people have a movement that addresses the issues that affect them personally. Women are no different.

Because feminism has caused a lot of problems? You simply wanna ignore them. Did you forget both men and women are human beings? How exactly do human issues not affect humans personally? There is no reason to divide everything by gender. You're just clinging to that because it's convenient to blame men once more.

And lastly, this is where the excuses come into play. If there are issues that impact men, then you guys need to come together and form a movement. Feminism tackled issues related to female domestic violence. Create your own movement and do the work necessary to implement solutions. Women did what they needed to help female victims. Men are more than capable of organizing a group to tackle issues that affect themselves. But no, guys like you would rather bitch about feminism than actually do something productive to address the issue.

In that process, feminism completely fucked over male victims. This is part of the issue. I really don't get this take. Why do men and women have to be in a constant battle with each other instead of people helping other people? The idea that women just did what they needed is also a huge lie. From the very beginning feminism could only exist because of the support of men.

[–]TSquaredRecoversBlue Pill Woman 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Maffioze1 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

For the last time, it’s not feminists who are the problem.

Stop saying this, you don't know what you're speaking about. Feminists have written domestic violence policies that discriminate against men. They have lobbied governments so that programs that were not gendered became gendered so that all funding would go to female victims. Feminists have trained the police to arrest men by default. They have written bigoted articles where they suggest men are less capable of feeling pain and anxiety while abused. They have intimidated researchers that found domestic violence is not gendered, these researchers were using metastudies of hundreds of thousands of people. They are trying to rewrite laws so that the severity of punishment depends on the gender of the victim and the perpetrator. They play around with male victims as if they are toys in their gender wars.

You're not aware of any of this, yet you continue to tell me i'm wrong for being more knowledgable on the topic than you are. Please just stop, its patronizing.

[–]Arn4r648901 point 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You know that Ellen Pence, a feminist, created the Duluth Model, right? And it's that Duluth Model that's still used today to paint men as abusers no matter what.

Ellen Pence even says herself that she was wrong:

"By determining that the need or desire for power was the motivating force behind battering, we created a conceptual framework that, in fact, did not fit the lived experience of many of the men and women we were working with. The DAIP staff [...] remained undaunted by the difference in our theory and the actual experiences of those we were working with [...] It was the cases themselves that created the chink in each of our theoretical suits of armor. Speaking for myself, I found that many of the men I interviewed did not seem to articulate a desire for power over their partner. Although I relentlessly took every opportunity to point out to men in the groups that they were so motivated and merely in denial, the fact that few men ever articulated such a desire went unnoticed by me and many of my coworkers. Eventually, we realized that we were finding what we had already predetermined to find."[20]

There was a controversial Chuck Derry AMA on r/MensLib . As stated in this response post, Chuck Derry relied heavily on the Duluth Model, which paints victims as female and perpetrators as male.

Feminists created a framework that

Does not account for LGBT+ relationships.
Does not account for nonbinary abusers and victims.
Does not account for female abusers and male victims.

A lot of feminists will argue that oh the Duluth Model is just describing one model of abuse but yet it's used for everything.

[–]BCRE8TVEPurple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Why can't we just use a science based approach with consistent moral rules of equality towards societal issues instead of this disgusting gender nationalism that only results in additional suffering?

Well see this is patriarchal science and reasoning based approaches that lead to the oppression of women, because women won't receive 100% of the help and 100% of the support like they deserve!

Today we're in a post-truth feelings-based anti-white anti-patriarchal anti-colonial feminist framework, which means women are always right and always deserve more help and sympathy, while men deserve none.

I wish this was sarcastic instead of functionally exactly what we're seeing in reality.

The pendulum has swung way too far in women's favour, we're starting to see some pushback, and it's about damn time.

But as usual its just ridiculous defensiveness instead of actually acknowledging the problem.

Yes but see feminism is the new religion, it can do no harm!

Again I wish this was sarcasm.

This whole debate is supremely frustrating, isn't it? It's really difficult to argue with people when it's like they live in a different reality.

[–]AlysArriaTraditional Woman 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Maffioze25M egalitarian 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I'm not depicting anything, that's literally what they did and are doing when it comes to this topic.

You even have women who were bullied out of the country, one that got her dog killed by a militant feminist and others that receives bomb threats because they wrote academic papers that showed men are victims of abuse as often as women are. The whole thing is a shit show. You have feminists lobbying for different punishments based on the gender of the perpetrator and victim. You have ones calling for "a strategy of containment" towards male victims. You have others trying to argue men are less capable of feeling pain (I wish I was kidding). All of the funding of the VAWA goes to women, even for research so basically there is barely any funding for research into male victims in the first place. Whenever police were arresting to many women in the past, feminists lobbied for changes in the police policy so that the police would arrest the taller person (and other things) by default, this was just a proxy for arresting men. In Australia, banks are allowed to freeze a man's bank account on merely an accusation of "financial abuse" by a woman, not needing any kind of court order.

Sure they look like an evil cabal here, but they are simply this awfull when it comes to this topic.

[–]AlysArriaTraditional Woman 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]BCRE8TVEPurple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]BCRE8TVEPurple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I am happy if you control yourself and don't do the us vs them mentality.

It is still important to recognize when people cause problems, and to call them out on it.

It's like that famous poem

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Not perpetuating the problem is great, but not calling it out when it happens allows it to continue spreading.

And as it is, nobody is standing up for men and opposing the misandry and double standards spread about men.

Nobody has time to go on a crusade for every single cause under the sun, the only thing I ask of people is to remember this, to notice this, and to call it out verbally if they see it happening around them, that's it. It shouldn't be too hard, and it can do a world of good to stop each gender treating the other like the enemy.

[–]Maffioze25M egalitarian 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]AlysArriaTraditional Woman 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Maffioze25M egalitarian 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AlysArriaTraditional Woman 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It certainly isn't. Mostly, I'm referring back to the "evil cabal" comment. I can certainly believe a group of feminist researchers would develop a domestic violence policy, push that policy, and then through further research and critique we discover the policy has major negative aspects. That happens constantly throughout numerous fields. I would hesitate to expand that to "all feminists are awful when it comes to male victim domestic violence," because even I personally know feminists who had strongly advocated for such protections or contributed money or time in some fashion.

I tend to be wary of people who paint very broad brushes, because you end up getting nowhere there. Though I am not one, I've always been under the impression that a real feminist wouldn't say "patriarchy means men are bad," but rather "patriarchy is an oppressive system that harms both genders; both men and women contribute to it."

Sadly, lots and lots of people poorly represent their ideologies and don't even believe their ideologies fully. There are misogynists and misandrists. Though in general, I'll always take the stance that men have been left behind by social movements as of late, and it's causing serious issues. Education in particular--men are falling far behind and nobody seems to care.

My apologies if I misunderstood or misrepresented your position. You've been very polite, patient, and informative towards me, so I thank you.

[–]vegansoymilk[S] 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

There are lots of comments here where I could post this same reply, just choosing you as you were the most recent last to comment.

In Australia crises centres are government funded or by large charities like the salvation army. I'm not aware of any benefactor established centres. Different models for different countries and jurisdictions. Which doesn't mean an independent centre based on donations, benefactors etc. could not be established.

Researching the internet I found a video by Alison Teaming who sees resourcing as a negative sum game. She believes that if benefactors acknowledge that men have a need for resources for similar reasons as women then no resources will be made available to anyone. She also makes the point men (or women) can support resourcing by individual donations.

In a previous post I made the comment that I had reached out to a number of men's groups in regards to starting a political party in Australia advocating for men's issues. The silence was deafening. I offered a number of reasons in that post for such a response. Some of these men's groups do pro-bono work for men in difficult situations, eg legal, accounting and physiological services. So becomes perplexing to me the lack of interest in establishing a men's political party when there are men interested in helping men in need generally.

https://youtu.be/XUExkKgENpQ?feature=shared

[–]MyHouseOnMars-wonder woman 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

She believes that if benefactors acknowledge that men have a need for resources for similar reasons as women then no resources will be made available to anyone.

this just doesn't make sense. You can just make an separate organization and raise money on your own without even mentioning women's shelters and avoid comparisons. I disagree with the video that says that people loose interest in DV alltogether. It just doesn't make sense.

So becomes perplexing to me the lack of interest in establishing a men's political party when there are men interested in helping men in need generally.

Same, I don't understand. It's not like building shelters and publicity for awareness is a new concept. Again, sure some people won't like it like homophobes didn't like gays having rights, but that's what political movements are for, change people's minds.

[–]BCRE8TVEPurple Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BCRE8TVEPurple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I wish the Men'srights movement would raise money for men who are victims of domestic abuse.

They did. That money helped to open a shelter for men victims of DV in Toronto, one of only 3 shelters for men victim of DV in Canada, and none of which receive any governmental support.

Now tell me, has there ever been a time when we told it's up to black people to fundraise to solve their own issues? For Jews to take protection into their own hands?

It's really weird because it's only to men that we would say "unfuck yourself on your own with no help, support, or empathy", that attitude is literally never used for any other group of people, ever.

That's the only way to raise awareness.

Right, because it would be so difficult for feminism to dare to spend some time addressing men's issues and raising awareness about them, instead of burying men's issues and dismissing them.

[–]MyHouseOnMars-wonder woman 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BCRE8TVEPurple Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree it didn't happen overnight.

The problem is that feminism is effectively opposing and kneecapping any efforts to actually bring up male issues. Allow me to copy/paste from a previous comment:

Feminism has a stranglehold on the equality discussion, and it seems largely unwilling to share the podium with men. I have no qualms with feminism addressing women's issues because those are serious issues that need to be addressed, and more often than not they do it well.

It's just whenever men's issues come up that I believe feminism fails horribly.

Feminist Mary Koss specifically and deliberately wrote male rape victims out of the definition of rape, saying

“Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman. p. 206”

She influenced the definition that the CDC uses to this day, as a feminist, because of her feminist beliefs. It's how you get the bullshit statistic that 90% of rape victims are women and all the male rape victims are raped by other men, because all the men who have been raped by women count as "made to penetrate" and are specifically and deliberately excluded from rape statistics. When you include "made to penetrate" as the rape that it actually is, men make up half the rape victims in the US and women make up almost half of all rapists. This is despite the heavily prevalent bias against male rape victims and female rapists, so the numbers are sure to rise as we start taking those into account more and stop erasing male rape victims and female perpetrators.

The same thing happened with domestic abuse. Feminists in the 1980's came up with the Duluth model, based on the assumption that the majority of perpetrators of domestic abusers will be men who brutalize their wives out of a masculine desire to dominate them. It's the single most widely used program on domestic abuse in the world, and it flat-out assumes the man is the perpetrator and should be arrested and taken to jail to make sure the woman is safe, and this, even if the woman is the perpetrator. She could come at him with a knife and stab him, and the police will still arrest the stabbed and bleeding man, while the wife gets to stay home.

Further research found that the desire for dominance has very little to do with domestic abuse, it's actually more out of a desire to control. In Canada more than half of all victims of domestic abuse are men, that women are more likely to initiate violence, that half of domestic abuse is reciprocal (they hit each other, regardless of who started it) and that unilateral violence (ie one partner hits while the other doesn't retaliate) is 3x more female-on-male violence than the other way around. So the traditional image of domestic abuse consistently peddled by feminism of the large imposing man beating up a small innocent woman only actually represents some 20% of all domestic abuse, while more than 30% of the time it's the wife beating up the husband, and half the time they're both beating each other up.

There are hundreds of domestic abuse shelters exclusively for women across Canada, but only 3 shelters for male victims of domestic abuse, and neither of those 3 shelters receive a single cent in governmental support.

Also, gay couples have the lowest domestic violence rates while lesbian couples have the highest domestic violence rates (and divorce rates), so the more women there are in a relationship the higher the odds of domestic violence and the higher the odds of divorce.

These are all statistically true facts, we've known that all of this is statistically true for at least a decade, but feminism continues to push the notion that rape and domestic abuse is a primarily female issue, and consistently continues to erase and invalidate male victims and male issues.

This is why I can't call myself a feminist, and I call myself a humanist instead, because I can't support a group that claims to be for equality, but in practice treats equality like a one-way street exclusively to the benefit of women.

We need to talk about and address men's issues more, but unfortunately the largest stumbling block more often than not is feminism itself standing in the way and refusing to let society talk about men's issues if they're not firmly in control of what is being said and how.

[–]ComfortableJeansMan, Aspiring Skitarii ⚙️ 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

Men generally don't want help. Or maybe it's more accurate to say, men know better than to ask for help.

Men who want help are seen as weak. Men who're seen as weak are seen very negatively by women, men, and society as a whole.

People who are seen negatively are treated poorly.

Men don't want to be seen as weak because they'll be treated poorly.

If you're a weak man, the best you can hope for is to be ignored and unseen, instead of mocked and criticised.

I was with an ex who'd hit me in the past. I'll be damned if I would let anyone know about the bruises from having shit thrown at me. Men wouldn't take me as seriously if I needed help with that, and women wouldn't look at me the same either.

Offer men as much help as you want. Men are so conditioned against ever accepting it that we know better. We see how men who take it are treated.

You can't condition us against something from ages as early as 6 and reinforce this our entire lives, then wonder why we don't do it.

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Title	Domestic Violence
Author	vegansoymilk
Upvotes	14
Comments	189
Date	November 13, 2023 9:47 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/17u79gf/domestic_violence/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/domestic-violence.1238311 https://theredarchive.com/post/1238311

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