Q4ALL: What do you make of TRP's claim that we live in a "gynocentric" society that values women more than men and cherishes/protects/treasures women while treating men as disposable?

Electra_Cute · 2017-06-15T03:55:08+00:00

This stems from the issue that men have to figure out what they have to do. Masculinity is earned, for some men it is not so clear to them how they earn their masculinity. It is very straightforward for women, all you have to do to be considered feminine is fail at being masculine.

The way women are valued is different than the way men are valued, simply existing for a lot of women is enough for them to be valued. Men feel like they have to earn their place in "society" and it can be more than a feeling. Right now there is an adjustment period going on for men on more of a macro scale, I think most men will feel as if they found their place eventually, but for the ones that do not, it is a very sad state of humanity for them.

This is why the movement parts of MGTOW, The Red Pill etc. even exist, because you have all of these acrimonious men and boys that are completely lost because of the current social climate and all of the disarray that comes with it, it makes it a complicated topic to even talk about properly. Being a woman is difficult at times, but not for the same reason why being a man is difficult. Some of the problems that women face seem farcical in juxtaposition to men's problem and vice versa. One example I can think of off the top of my head is how the school system favors a more feminine personality.

It is easier for women to be valued as it currently stands. I do not have too much time to write this, so it may be vague and grossly misguided.

NalkaNalka · 2017-06-15T03:47:14+00:00

Yeah men are disposable unless they make themselves useful. So as a man you can choose to be disposable or not.

It would be nice if society did not sugarcoat it. Just straight up tell boys growing up that society could not give less fucks about them unless they made themselves into something that people want or need. And if they don't they are shit out of luck.

OurThrownAwayDreams · 2017-06-15T05:58:12+00:00

Take Donald Trump for instance. How many parents who have daughters were utterly disgusted by his remarks about women allowing him to grab them because he's rich?

What he said alone wasn't that offensive because he's not describing himself going around forcing himself on women, rather, he's describing the scenario where women open up to him due to his status and his wealth, which is completely understandable. Yet I know a lot of parents, especially fathers of daughters found it utterly repulsive.

Now switch it around, what if Donald Trump said "boys growing up need to get spanked, boys need to get taught how to behave correctly, they need to get spanked if they misbehave." Do you think fathers of sons would be as upset about it as they would compared to the "grab them by the pussy" remark?

parents respond to the cries of daughters quicker than the cries of sons. why is that?

you read articles on the horror of female genital mutilation, but what about male genital mutilation aka circumcision? people dont seem to care as much.

i have witnessed this on facebook many times, a girl writes something like "got dumped, bad day" and everyone rush to tell her how things are gonna get better, she deserves better, guy's a jerk anyways, etc. when a poor bloke writes about how frustrated he felt after getting no replies with online dating, many rushed to tell him how he needs to lower his standards and stop feeling so entitled. what's going on here?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html

Straight out of huffpost, even a site like that cannot deny that women get less time than men in sentencing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtVHnZX8E50

Checkout this social experiment on domestic violence and watch what happens when a woman is seen beating up a man.

im sure there are more examples people can pull up. there is no doubt that women in general have enjoyed some preferential treatments over men and society does not treat women as harshly as they are toward men. but what people don't seem to realize is that the trade off being made here is that women, unlike men, have to deal with problems like feeling unsafe when walking home alone at night, especially in questionable neighborhoods. (worst they can do to me as a guy is to mug me and rough me up, but the worst they can do to a woman is to rape her) or how they sometimes worry about people slipping things into their drinks (as a guy, that almost never enters my mind) or some prettier ones often find their achievements to be dwarfed by their beauty. or how women are expected to look good and presentable most of the time especially at work.

but hey we each get away with shits based on our gender. it's just that i think women get away with more things than men do so that makes the society gynocentric. both genders have their shitty trade-offs. though it does become a problem when you have a movement that's out to remove the negative side on their gender while stifling the progress to remove the shackles on the other sex. women have been freed, but i feel like men are still stuck in the way back days. you can say how you know so and so is a stay at home dad, but can you confidently say that society's view on stay at home dad is MOSTLY positive?

cxj · 2017-06-15T06:38:14+00:00

Top men are less disposable than top women because they are the ones deciding who's disposable to them, lol. These top men realize that middle and especially bottom men are utterly disposable to them, more than ever in the age of automation, but women are still needed to create more people, and hence less disposable.

Men have always been more disposable, gynocentrism just exacerbates this through female favored family court, schools, professional environments etc.

Butt-Factory · 2017-06-15T05:06:35+00:00

I can understand why a man would feel this way. Simply put, men need women a lot more than women need men in modern times.

Women used to need men to provide resources while she gave birth and raised the family. In return, the man would get (hopefully) healthy offspring and companionship.

These days, women don't need men to provide resources. They can easily provide for themselves. Women don't need men for affection, physical touch, and emotional intimacy. They do that for each other. Women don't even need a man in their lives to have babies with sperm donation being so accessible and affordable.

Men cannot experience warmth, physical closeness, intimate companionship, or reproduction without a female partner. A single man will almost certainly have a lot of his basic needs unmet, even if he can afford to hire sex workers. A lot of this is due to the bizarre and surprisingly recent development of social norms that look down on intimate platonic relationships between men. Men being cold and distant with one another is not natural.

A man's value used to be based almost entirely on his ability to provide for his family. Now that ability is not so essential, he is forced to forge his own ideals and assert his own value. If there's one generalization I'm willing to make, it's that men want to feel useful. There are countless ways to make yourself useful outside of creating and providing for a family. Be of service to your community, adopt a needy shelter pet, build a thing with your hands, see how far you can advance in your career, make some art, write a novel.

The only men I know that feel worthless are quite literally doing nothing usefulv with their lives. You don't need to be special or talented to be a useful person.

Eastuss · 2017-06-15T05:04:35+00:00

The knowledge that you are disposable unless you accomplish something should be a basis of strength and a foundation of personal will

IIHotelYorba · 2017-06-15T05:19:41+00:00

It's absolutely clear if you look at demographics and don't muddy the waters with the 0.001% of men who are leaders, quarterbacks, moviestars, high power politicians, etc. Y'know, all the types feminists love to distract with.

I mean surely I can't be the only one who sees the tiny flaw in putting the slave and the slave master into one big group that oppressed women.

midnightvulpine · 2017-06-15T11:00:05+00:00

Depression and suicide are not new. They are real issues that need real help, not an internet forum that is more likely to feed and ramp up such feelings.

I don't put much stock in TRP's views on the nature of society because they look at it through a very narrow lens in my opinion. For example, take my news app on my phone. I get regular prompts when I get to my lock screen about this shooting, this killing, this fire, these deaths, this terrible thing and that terrible thing. Which reminds me quite a bit of TRP. If I based my views of life on the lock screen of my phone and it's narrow lens, I'd surely feel suicidal myself.

The problem with TRP is that is isn't focused on self help. There are elements of it, like with my phone app. I see some good news on there from time to time. But it far prefers to show me terrible things happening. And TRP likes to focus on how terrible life is, as opposed to how good it can be. If you look constantly into the darkness and ignore the light, you'll start to think the world is all about darkness. Of course you will start to feel hopeless.

EmpoweredGirl · 2017-06-15T15:04:31+00:00

Honestly we are biologically wired to have men as the more disposable sex. When we used to live in the trees/caves/plains for millions of years it became clear that clans that protected the women survived, those that did not were exterminated. One man can impregnate several women, while one women can only birth one child or rarely more at a time. A Colony can survive with one man, but would die with one women.

Though the problem men face today is different in nature to what it was before. The Female empowering movement have moved so far so fast that it has caused as many problems as it has fixed. Honestly unless you are a model of how a man should be, you will inevitably have so many things blamed and dumped on you and you can't do anything about it.

Honestly I think all men need to hear is that we appreciate what they do, and they shouldn't be blamed for everything that goes wrong. Jordan B Peterson has a really good talk on this. The metaphysical man can be split into the Tyrannical Father and the Wise King. We focus on the Tyrannical Father way to much today in society, and do away with all the good things men do.

If anything the most sexist people I have come across is women, as they often assume that being a man is privileged while being willingly blind to all the pains it comes with.

drok007 · 2017-06-15T03:33:44+00:00

That doesn't make it gynocentric, that just means women have more inherent value as objects.

IIHotelYorba · 2017-06-15T05:21:14+00:00

It's really disturbing: there was a guy on TRP the other day saying that he was going to commit suicide because he was sick of this "gynocentric society."

I hope he didn't kill himself

Also I hate to say it but guys like that are looking for a reason to kill themselves.

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TheGreasyPole · 2017-06-15T10:03:20+00:00

We've generally always lived in societies where men are disposable.

That's why we get shipped off to war, as much as any other reason.

Western society is not special in this regard. Men really are more disposable. They are also generally the "high risk/high reward" gender package, whilst women are the "medium risk/medium reward" package.

As such you'd expect women to have a much more even distribution of sexual success.... and men to be predisposed to the "win big, or die trying" strategy.

The guy you mention is giving up. He is not even going to die trying. He's just not even going to try, and is possibly going to die.

I'd say to him he needs to take risks to try and "win". That's a better option for him.

Faint heart ne'er won fair maid.

If he's got nothing to lose, I don't see why he shouldn't get stuck in and take risks. In the worst case scenario he can only be as badly off as he is now. What's he got to lose ?

Topping yourself is not about losing. It's about refusing to try.

AlphaWeaboo · 2017-06-15T12:12:14+00:00

That's what happens when you're a weakling mentally speaking, hapiness comes from within, not from others approval.

eliechallita · 2017-06-15T16:30:49+00:00

Short answer: Bitch please.

Longer answer: This is a nuanced issue, but TRP managed to get it entirely wrong nonetheless, for multiple reasons.

1- Men have always been the more disposable gender, throughout history, simply because of how reproduction works. That isn't a product of "this society". That didn't keep men from holding the majority of economic, political, and social power for most of that history as well, while relegating women to second-class citizens.

2- Men today might feel more disposable because women do not have to depend on them for material or social security: A working person doesn't need a spouse for financial support, regardless of genders. I think that it's an improvement, however, because it means that your partner would willingly choose to be with you rather than be forced to be with someone, which might be you, out of a concern for their security. That latter situation is still prevalent in many non-Western societies.

3- There's a lot of surface messaging about "You go, girl" and women being placed on a pedestal, but frankly it's often only skin-deep. Women are still held in pretty low regard in many areas, or have to work against stereotypes and expectations that weigh them only specifically because they are women. Forget gynocentric, in many cases our society is barely gyno-friendly.

I think that the three points above combine into the following: Men today can no longer rely on being necessary to a woman, and therefore feel lost because they have to put more thought and effort into their presentation and identity. A man in a Western society cannot base his identity around being the sole breadwinner anymore, and he cannot count on some woman, one day, being basically offered to him by society. That new responsibility goes against a few hundred years of social inertia and programming, and many of us are scared and confused by it because we're still in a period of flux where we're figuring out how to replace that basis for male identity.

I think that this will be a moot point in a few decades, as we'll have adapted to the idea of men and women being seen as equal individuals rather than a set of gendered expectations and responsibility, but I might be too idealistic there.

sublimemongrel · 2017-06-15T03:56:38+00:00

The men I know aren't "disposable." Be more like them.

theiamsamurai · 2017-06-15T09:39:06+00:00

It's BS. If women were as cherished as you say then their access to healthcare wouldn't be under attack, the maternity death rate wouldn't be the highest among developed nations, and they wouldn't be forced into poverty at the rates they currently are when raising our most valuable resource all on their own.

Some guy getting a hard on for a model doesn't Change any of that.

BPremium · 2017-06-15T11:43:27+00:00

[deleted]

incelsarepeopletoo · 2017-06-15T04:19:41+00:00

its true

RockinSocksII · 2017-06-15T03:17:46+00:00

It might be true, but if women cut out their uteruses, they would be just as disposable.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2017-06-15T05:16:55+00:00

The Gynocentrism/Male Disposability thing isn't unique to TRP. Its also shared by the MHRM and also MGTOW.

As an MHRA I agree we live in a gynocentric society (i.e. a society which evaluates things in terms of cost/benefit to women) and a society that embraces male disposability (i.e. a society which sees the expenditure of male life/happiness to protect female life/happiness as a good thing).

ClarityofDisaster · 2017-06-15T10:22:17+00:00

This is the part of RP that I agree most with.

I hope he didn't kill himself as well. If he happens to read this, I invite him to PM me. Talking does help.

StarvedOfHumanTouch · 2017-06-15T12:07:42+00:00

99.9999% of those who died in war were men

andrewisgood · 2017-06-15T13:54:23+00:00

He seems delusional, at least the suicidal guy.

What's interesting is learning about why for examples judges gives women lighter sentences.

https://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/criminal-justice/courts-lenient-sentencing-bond-women

The authors hypothesize that judges might treat female defendants more leniently when they conform to the traditional gender roles of housewife and mother. Goulette and her colleagues found support for the “evil woman” theory, which suggests that this “chivalry” is reserved for certain groups of women who appear to be docile and in need of protection.

I think this also goes into this idea that I've been hating on recently about how people are using naturalistic fallacies a lot, be it how chimps do it, so that seems like the best thing, or a recent post about taller people mating with smaller people, even saying mating here seems douchy to me. We don't live as cavemen anymore.

Lack of self confidence in oneself is certainly hard, and I've had that issue. You want to ask, how do you become confident, but there's no good answer. You can train, lift, and all that, but sometimes deep down, there's this inner monologue that says you're not good enough. I just think that blaming your problems on society treating women like the greatest thing ever isn't the best way to go about things.

wtknight · 2017-06-15T14:08:48+00:00

I think there has been one time in my life I felt that I was discriminated against because I'm a man. Sure, I had to register for selective service, but I don't think I ever worried that I would be drafted so I have never felt like it impacted me or made me more "disposable," although I can see the logic in the arguments for registering women, as well.

I'm sure most of the women on PPD can count more than one instance in which they have felt discriminated against for being a woman.

despisedlove2 · 2017-06-15T14:19:10+00:00

Is there a competition for posting the obvious that you are angling for?

[deleted] · 2017-06-15T14:50:07+00:00

simple.

how many women are in disposable fields that endanger their lives as a career choice? I mean active military combat duty, front line troops. not secretaries.

Once we can say that we have as easy a time putting a girl in front of a bullet as a boy, then we have equality.

grandaddychimp · 2017-06-15T15:34:41+00:00

That's why they call it The Red Pill. It's not meant for most men, and it's outright dangerous for some men to swallow it. Some men cannot psychologically handle the truth, especially those who are mentally unstable to begin with. They get to the 4th phase of the 5 Stages of Grief (Depression) and get stuck there. This can have serious consequences like suicide.

[deleted] · 2017-06-15T17:47:36+00:00

It's a misinterpretation of statistics and data fundamentally. They see that women don't get drafted. That must mean, to them, that society thinks women are more valuable than men. Well... sorta. It's actually that society thought women couldn't do anything in battle anyways because they are frail, they needed to be protected due to child birthing (which is 90% of what they were seen as, is birthing units), and that's how it came about. It's negative stereotypes about women, perpetuated by mostly men a long time ago, that had a discriminatory practical application against men. Anything that fits that definition seems to confuse TRP deeply.

rulenumber303 · 2017-06-15T12:38:31+00:00

If he just wants someone to look at him with lust and that is literally all he needs out of all this to decide to stay alive, he should put on a pair of booty shorts and go to happy hour at the sleaziest of the local gay bars. Something is telling me he doesn't really want to be looked at the way heterosexual men look lustfully at random women as fuckmeat.

But seriously, having your looks and desirability be the cornerstone of how the world values you is over-rated. Next to none of the people valuing you that way have your best interests at heart and extending your trust is a dangerous thing in that sort of world. No matter how much you do and achieve none of it seems to change a damn thing about how you are treated. And ultimately it can all be taken away by fate so so easily... beauty is fragile and perishable. In general value-through-desirability is just kind of fucked-up but in a way that those who aren't interacting with the dynamic from the being-over-desired end are never going to understand.

oh well. Join a monastery and focus on god. Get a heroin addiction and focus on getting money for horse. Watch a lot of porn and do a lot of gaming. Go into therapy and talk endlessly about yourself until you stop living your life from within and instead live it as something you observe and report on. Just fucking do something else if normal reality is too hard to handle. Anyone who has that sort of trouble... you're not the first person to find reality too hard to deal with, people have been having issues with reality for as long as we've had adequate technology for them to document their struggles with reality, and it sure as fuck doesn't come down to the modern era and/or society being gynocentric. Reality is hardtack whichever way you slice it.

[deleted] · 2017-06-15T03:45:50+00:00

Your edit has made it into two separate issues .

The first - yeah it is gynocentric but it's nothing we can't handle. It's like a shit test. Let them moan and cry about being women. There's already a big backlash. Just let them hang themselves with their own rope, it's already happening .

The second one is more of a nature thing no? Not really anything to do about that

[deleted] · 2017-06-15T06:47:27+00:00

I also remember one guy on Reddit saying how most average-looking men will almost never in their lives have the experience of having a woman look upon them with lust/desire in her eyes. Except for maybe just before PIV intercourse starts when she desperately wants you to enter her with your penis. But apart from that this look of lust/desire is alien to most average-looking men.

I can relate to that fear of never being desired, even if I think it's unfounded, and I can also relate to feeling disposable. But I don't think either of those things has to do with living in a gynocentric society. I think it's rather absurd to say we live in a female-centered world when so much power is still in the hands of men. I think a lot of men on the manosphere see the push by feminists and progressives for an equal standing between men and women and believe it to be a form of oppression when it is instead the opposite.

That feeling of being disposable has to do with how we as men feel like we've been wronged if women aren't interested in us. Lack of interest becomes oppression as well. Same goes for men, who for whatever reason have little success with women, who fear they'll never be desired by women like they desperately want to desire women.

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