(Meta) There's a massive misunderstanding going on between BP and RP debaters here.

washington_breadstix · 2017-03-19T03:03:19+00:00

You assume that the majority of users come to this subreddit to have their minds changed. They don't. They come here to convince.

caesarfecit · 2017-03-19T04:06:56+00:00

Truesay blooper.

Both sides can step up their game and do more actual debate and argument and less posturing, shouting matches, and bad faith games. And we have to self police, the mods can't, won't, and even shouldn't do it for us.

locriology · 2017-03-19T11:56:56+00:00

A good practice to fight the constant back-and-forth of straw-man arguments is to have both sides attempt to accurately and thoroughly state the other person's position such that they would agree that that is indeed what they're arguing. It forces people to actually try to look at the situation from a different perspective and understand the other side, which makes for a much more meaningful discussion.

Of course, there's just so much angry screeching and shitposting on this sub that it'd be silly to expect that level of discourse here. The comments in response to this very thread demonstrate that pretty clearly.

BiggerDthanYou · 2017-03-19T12:01:44+00:00

That's different communication styles.

For TBP it's important that it is factually correct, for TRP it's important that it is helpful.

They don't care if their generalizations aren't technically correct as long as they get results. We care because we know that broad generalizations are barely ever correct.

And then there's also the fact that TeRPers are blind to nuance and don't really understand words.

We might say that not all women are like that and they will argue as if we said that no women are like that. It's their black and white thinking that makes it impossible for us to have actual conversations because we always speak past each other.

We agree on the basics that self improvement is important, but we disagree on how it should be presented.

despisedlove2 · 2017-03-19T05:58:29+00:00

You are forgetting that RP is a crisis center born philosophy that doesn't care if BP agrees with it or not. Such "understanding" is meaningless to us.

ManSentHisOwnWay · 2017-03-19T12:15:41+00:00

This entire place revolves around us not agreeing with each other's premises.

ProbablyBelievesIt · 2017-03-19T03:50:13+00:00

There's no need to pretend both sides are equally guilty.

Right now, the evidence for women only being attracted to alpha leaders is that many TRP posters like to leave links blue, and refuse to seriously debate any woman who disagrees with them.

Oh, and they're confused about the difference between beta and omega, because they don't even understand their own terminology.

squidracer · 2017-03-19T02:02:28+00:00

So are personal experiences null and void just because some university didn't bother doing a study on it?

stonepimpletilists · 2017-03-19T03:38:36+00:00

No premise. Bpers want a venue to shit on rp guys, and rp guys shit post, occasionally DEERing themselves like idiots (me inclided)

Its the all singing all dancing compost heap, those who keep saying debate are the cluless ones.

Want to convinve an rp guy? Post a field report, or provide something working more than what hes already doing.

I mean cmon, they cant even get an incel laid. Cant even get one to stop crying. Half are lesbians, the other half are 30 year old lawyers who tried to be good men, as if thats what i want... Why the fuck would i value their opinions?

Theres a 23 year old soccer chick and 25 year old somethingorother that arent clueless, but again, why would i listen to a wee little girl about manhood?

Yall had 40 years to helpndefine masculinity, and fucked it up bad. Men are taking over, just smile and be pleasant

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soccerstar77 · 2017-03-19T03:46:17+00:00

This has to do with one's own view on the world and has nothing to do with evidence. People still try and treat cancer naturally despite the enormous scientific, peer-reviewed evidence chemo therapy works and eating herbs doesn't.

So you talk about evidence, but what does evidence mean to you?

Look at this comment chain of mine

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/5y8i7b/q4rp_explain_rape_culture/df2b0xo/

I present overwhelming evidence that Afghanistan is an extremely dangerous muslim country where women cannot go to school yet a BPer still thinks its a normal place and quite safe.

Sepean · 2017-03-19T15:14:51+00:00

The heart of the problem is that most BPers and many RPers don't understand that TRP says that women have a dual sexual strategy. Women do pursue men with beta traits. It's not with the same raw sexual attraction as with alphas, but they do seek beta partners.

crankypants15 · 2017-03-19T15:23:35+00:00

Whenever someone makes a statement "men do X" I just assume they mean "IME most men to X". That's a given. There are always exceptions to the rule and some people 1) don't see those exceptions or 2) don't want to talk about them for some reason.

Never underestimate the power of denial.

hauswyfetechno · 2017-03-20T04:51:40+00:00

RPs basic premises make debate impossible in any case. When you set out believing that everything NOT RP is a lie or a fabrication and that you are one of an enlightened few exposed to THE TRUTH^tm you aren't going to be able to actually have a decent argument with anyone. RP is a cult, not a coherent worldview.

ThwarterOfFrame · 2017-03-20T07:16:56+00:00

Hi OP, I'm writing this response to change your view. You say you are open-minded, so lets test that premise.

Imagine we do a research study with 100 participants. For example, lets say we present a dating profile, and then experimentally manipulate the n-count, such as 1, 5, 10, 20, etc. Our hypothesis would be at what point the n-count makes the person in the dating profile unappealing. Or, as another example, lets say we do a survey asking people about their opinions of n-count. So we do either an experiment, or a survey, which are the two basic forms of research.

Each participant is 1 data-point. And we collect those data points by collecting more and more participants.

How is that any different than people responding in this sub?

For example, someone posts a question or statement or issue. The commenters (participants) respond. Each person is a data-point. Now, its mostly qualitative responding (I'll grant you that), rather than quantitative, but you, as the reader, can look over the responses and get a sense of the results.

What I am arguing is that (1) yes, you are right, more "present evidence and research supporting that premise" would be nice. My job is social science research. I would love it if this sub, and all subs in existence, used more of it!, (2) but you have to also admit that the very act of posting/commenting is a type of research study, with the commenters as participants, each one a data-point, providing their opinions to survey questions, or providing their experiential life history as responses to experimental mechanisms.

Let me say it another way, in a more provocative way. Imagine a post stating that women tend to like bad boys over nice guys. The commenters respond. If the majority are drawing upon their life history to confirm the statement, isn't that de facto a research study supporting the premise?

UA_Hammer · 2017-03-19T03:02:15+00:00

BP and RPers seem to often make arguments based on premises that the other side doesn't agree to. For example, a red pill might make an argument that relies on all/most women being attracted to the RP alpha, and present this premise without evidence. The blue pill will then disagree with the premise, and typically the argument will dissolve, with nobody having learned anything.

RP posters regularly get BPers to use RP frame to make an argument, effectively winning the argument

You see the opposite too sometimes with BPers getting RPers to start off on the "we were oppressed" blah blah parallels to feminist narrative

DarkLord0chinChin · 2017-03-19T08:21:36+00:00

If you disagree with the premise, either look up a previous post debating the premise or make your own. When it is pretty much established that women are attracted to alphas, we can move on and make points that follow from that premise, without having to prove it all over again.

Title	(Meta) There's a massive misunderstanding going on between BP and RP debaters here.
Author	HugMuffin
Upvotes	12
Comments	164
Date	March 19, 2017 1:48 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/607s1t/meta_theres_a_massive_misunderstanding_going_on/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/meta-theres-a-massive-misunderstanding-going-on.269396 https://theredarchive.com/post/269396

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