Q4RP: What do you find most frustrating about non-RP/BP ideology?

Cartesian_Duelist · 2015-10-22T17:24:54+00:00

I have several.

1) The insistence that any man who has experienced difficulty with women and intersexual relationships is autistic, retarded, moronic, defective, deficient, stupid, and other various and sundry epithets.

2) That there is absolutely no consideration given to how these men were socialized. There is no consideration given to the pervasive nature of the feminist, feminized messages inculcated into them during their formative years. That there were concerted efforts by the adults in their lives to reinforce the feminist, "niceguy" messages and remove and filter out any masculinization messages, because masculinity is seen as toxic, violent, criminal, and maladjusted.

Whenever these things are brought up, the stock Blue Pill response is "you're lying, no one ever says or does those things, you did it wrong; you applied it wrong; you're just a moronic autistic socially defective retard who can't read social cues."

3) The idea that the world is awash in "NiceGuys (TM)", i.e. the man who plays a role to get in her pants, then turns dark and violent when rejected; screaming "I was nice to her, she owes me sex!" Blue Pill's beliefs in this regard are paranoid and delusional. BP wildly overestimates the number of NiceGuys (TM).

4) The fantasy of "egalitarian" relationships. Power is always at play in any relationship between two people. And in any relationship between two people, one is always dominant, the other is always submissive. The persons occupying the roles might change and shift from time to time, but there is always a dominant and always a submissive.

5) The notion that men can get relationships and sex just as easily as women can. The apex fallacy is extremely strong in the Blue Pill set.

6) The fact that extremely basic, rudimentary and simple RP concepts must be discussed and explained to Blue Pill over and over again, repeatedly, with the same stone wall of "well, that's just not my experience, so you're wrong and you're also a sexist misogynistic asshole" in response pretty much every time.

[deleted] · 2015-10-22T18:19:44+00:00

Or take anything most BP flaired men and women post. They are so rooted in idealism and detached from reality. You can't debate that.

Or it's the exact opposite.

Sometimes I have the impression that blue pillers look at relationships from a very rational point of view. Not a wrong view, but sometimes it sounds like they are against looking at relationships from a romantic/idealistic angle.You'll probably want to have a happy medium.

Again, this is only the impression I get from reading here. I am not saying that blue pillers are heartless robots.

disposable_pants · 2015-10-22T18:54:42+00:00

Two things, mostly:

First, the refusal of many blue pillers to argue against the intent of TRP and TRP concepts. Too often conversations get bogged down in details, disagreements over whether a comparison is appropriately descriptive, and/or willful misrepresentations of TRP. It's like saying "a football team wants to score points" and hearing back a ton of obscure, specific situations where scoring points is bad; complaints that comparing football to, say, basketball is useless because the sports aren't exactly the same in every way; and accusations that you're in favor of airing it out when you just need to take a knee to seal the win. The intent of "a football team wants to score points" is clearly that generally a football team wants to score points in most situations, but blue pillers often choose not to argue that and instead choose to nitpick irrelevant edge cases. They'll continue to do this even when the intent is made explicitly, unambiguously clear.

Second, the tendency of many blue pillers to outright reject ideas that are (for good reason) taken for granted almost everywhere else. Stuff like women having more sexual options than men, or women not always perfectly communicating what they want. Almost everywhere outside of this little corner of the internet challenging those ideas would get laughed at, because it's abundantly clear that they're true. But here, blue pillers will derail entire threads debating those basic concepts simply because they choose to disagree with anything TRP says.

OlBastard · 2015-10-22T17:39:39+00:00

My largest problem with bloopers(and generally, progressives) is the fact that most of their arguments stem directly from a desire to build their self-esteem and are thusly emotional. There is absolutely no foresight and consideration of factors outside of 'what feels right'.

This is why they are idealists. Ideals make them feel good about themselves and so they see everything through a distorted glass of "How does this make me feel?"

I've observed this phenomenon mostly in women, but now a large amount of men are catching on.

This is why TRP was a haven from bullshit to me. It was refreshing to find people discussing social dynamics not intertwined with idiotic emotional appeals. If something feels bad, too fucking bad, reality isn't supposed to be inherently pleasant, life is a hustle.

I'd disagree with you /u/drok007 on the collectivism aspect. Social animals, and especially humans, by nature, form ingroups and outgroups. Ingroups are a bit distorted in the age of immense connectivity, but the principles still apply; they consist of groups of individuals who benefit from their inclusion and who share some belief/goal/anything that encourages cohesion.

Collectivism is merely a large-scale focus on groups. There's nothing wrong with humans being humans and organizing themselves into groups, in fact, it's the healthiest for our mental well-being.

Putting aside social psych 101, bloopers/progressives don't follow the natural paradigm, instead, they use some idealized assumption that all humans are part of their 'ingroup'. This is obviously false, most people don't give a shit about you, and wouldn't really give a shit if you were dead.

Studies have shown that conservatives are more similar to oriental collectivists, while liberals are more individualistic on measures that don't take into account some faulty perspective of the world.

This is why I cannot stand idealists like bloopers. They're not realists or pragmatists, but some idiots with pipe dreams.

exit_sandman · 2015-10-22T22:16:59+00:00

Loads of stuff, /r/alreadyredschool has compiled a nice list.

But if I had to pick one thing it's... no, not the fact that bluepillers think redpill strategies are morally wrong, that's their prerogative.

What's really frustrating is that many consider any opinion, statement or position that's offensive to them automatically as factually incorrect and resort either to really wobbly counterarguments (like "so, you say men are overrepresented among persons with higher IQs? what about Marilyn Vos Savant?" or "so, you say men are stronger than women? what about Ronda Rousey?") or to a reaction that can only be labeled as outright denial, even in the face of definite evidence to the contrary because they feel what the evil redpiller says just has to be false.

You can clearly talk about probabilities, likelihoods or general tendencies, and they will still get pissed and be contrarian on principle if these probabilities fly in the face of the assumption of the equality of the sexes or imply something unflattering about particular demographics. Even when the argument is basically forcing itself on them (I had once a debate with someone who insisted that bodymods are no indicator at all regarding someone's sexual habits, and than the same fucking person quoted from a survey how the median partner count of people with body mods was 3-4 times as high as that of peope without... you can't make that shit up).

alreadyredschool · 2015-10-22T17:27:38+00:00

Political correctness

Muh feelings!

Generalizations are bad mkay!

What are analogies?

Gullible idealism

Outstanding ignorance combined with a disability to understand the other side.

Inability to address TRP, they always have to resort to their faulty understanding of anything, guys misuse and misunderstanding of something is no valid criticism. No really I came here to have my views changed and apparently only one in two thousand posts manages to be a valid critique.

Tone policing

Inability to understand that stating facts does not mean that we automatically are in favor of that.

Failure to understand that most twerps do not care about your moral judgment.

BP's belief that TRP only works on broken women.

The belief that TRP is a cult/science/pseudoscience.

Failure to understand SMV or believing that SMV doesn't exist.

Believing that we believe in the alpha beta dichotomy.

Hating plate spinning and condemning TRP because of that.

Failure to articulate what they actually want or mean.

Equal relationship > world peace

Thinking that "soo alpha" is a good retort. There are many alpha traits that are not TRP endorsed, TRP is pragmatic, we do what works not every single thing that can be considered alpha.

Thinking that all twerps are the same.

Thinking that TRP is about bashing and hating women.

Lack of humor.

Inability to make use of logic the moment something is offending.

Wishful thinking and the just world fallacy, strongly believing in something because the truth is too uncomfortable.

Having no idea how to use any tactics, they think we follow a script like robots. No there is no reason to use dread game when everything is smooth, most of the time we are just ourselves.

Thinking TRP is inconsistent because MRP, RPW, and TRP purse different things.

SOwED · 2015-10-22T17:21:18+00:00

The BP focuses too much on absolutes, and not enough on majorities in terms of opinions.

For example, if someone says, most young girls like confident, assertive, fit men who aren't afraid to be bold with their sexuality, the BP will say, "oh but some girls don't like that, they like nice, kind guys"

Archwinger · 2015-10-22T17:49:53+00:00

I don't like the way everything devolves into morality instead of logic.

Example:

"If I do X, women want to fuck me and treat me better, even though X seems like a self-interested and mean thing to do. If I do Y, women make excuses to get away from me even though Y seems like a nice, inviting, and engaging thing to do. Therefore, I do X."

"How can you do X? That's manipulative!"

"But...it works. If women didn't like it when I did X, they wouldn't respond positively to me doing X. If women preferred men who did Y, they would respond positively to men doing Y."

"Lots of people I know didn't have to do X and still got laid! They're not abusive shits like you!"

"So...we're in agreement that doing X works?"

Here's another one:

"The best route for men is to become hot, successful, and valuable. Then, they have their choice of women and can avoid marrying sluts."

"There's nothing wrong with promiscuity!"

"Okay, but, see, some men prefer not to risk being with sluts, druggies, criminals, women with mental health issues, or any other trait they perceive as negative. And by becoming awesome enough to have a choice, they don't need to."

"Uh, stupid terper, being a criminal actually hurts people but having a healthy and active sex life doesn't."

"Okay...but we agree that a man who has his choice of women doesn't have to date anybody he doesn't want to, such as sluts, right?"

ifelsedowhile · 2015-10-22T17:37:10+00:00

when they talk of men's and women's sexuality like it's the same thing downplaying the natural differences. such differences are even Greater than those ones concerning physical strength so it's foolish to pretend they don't exist. they should be taught in school to clear people of any confusion later in life but I see the school system and the institutions are helping to add confusion probably because the truth is inconvenient (hypergamy etc.)

fiat_lux_ · 2015-10-22T17:52:40+00:00

I can't have prolonged convos with certain people online. IRL, it would be fine , but online, their personalities just clash with mine.

These are people who tend to be more sensing than intuitive. On a scale ranging from "shallow/superficial" to "neurotic", they are much closer to the shallow end. I'm closer on the neurotic end. I like thinking of things, and would rather err on the side of overthinking than underthinking.

... And then there's others who are even worse. They're capable of thinking beyond what's in front of them, but they still choose to behave like infant postmodernists and get offended by abstractions. It's almost willful ignorance to me.

A great example are all the posts bemoaning the concept of "SMV" we get over the months. Wtf. That should be one of the least controversial rp ideas.

The logic they spout off against "SMV" can be used against any hypothetical representative values, such as "average height",or maybe "average net worth". No, of course these numbers don't represent a single real object in the real world. Each individual person is a special snowflake with his own unique height which probably won't be the exact "average human height" (might get within a micrometer or even nanometer though), but the number still exists and has a purpose even if YOU don't understand it.

And the complaints about objectification ("You're reducing people to numbers! omg!") make little sense to me unless I assume they are just mindlessly relaying platitudes. How do these people even live if they are being serious? For example, how do you negotiate a salary without "reducing yourself to a number"? All these numbers are contextual. I'm "reducing myself to a number" when I talk about my ELO to chess nerds.

It's not a problem with all bpers, but I consider it a bp mindset. There are plenty of bpers who are honest and can understand/recognize abstractions for what they are and their purpose: /u/TheChemist158, /u/madscilove, /u/gridrexx, etc. They're just choosing to ID as bp, and more power to them. And then there are NON-bpers who try to appear edgy and individualist and call themselves unlabeled, but still have that infant postmodernist way of thinking. IIRC, the most recent couple complaining about "SMV" never called themselves bpers. So I don't want to call it just a bp thing.

I don't even want to call it a problem of ideology. It could be any dumb ideology that they simple-mindedly latch onto for whatever reasons (likely because the ideology is popular).

It's a problem with their brains. Their personalities. They're incompatible with mine.

TheGreasyPole · 2015-10-22T17:09:30+00:00

Personally I find the constant inability to divorce what I would like to be true of reality from an understanding of what is actually true in reality incredibly frustrating.

I have always been of the opinion that in order to change the world such as to make it what it ought to be you must first honestly understand how it currently is.

That gives you your base position for changing it, if only your little corner of it.

I find the common BP position of this is how it is, because this is how it should be incredibly frustrating for this reason. There is no reason to think the world as it is is anything like how it should be! And also because when you argue back "that's not how it is" then they automatically jump to the assumption you are also saying "and this is not how it should be".

So that's one of my personal annoyances.

I'm also quite an analytical guy, and so BPs constant insertion of emotion and feels into it also drives me a little around the bend too. It's not a good way of analysing the world.

Finally, people who have read a lot of my comments will also know I find TBPs "monster creation for the purpose of mocking other humans with a clear conscience" particularly odious.

I am no great friend of the haters on either side... But I find it it richly ironic that the main criticisms from a site built on such "monster creation" and "mocking of the monsters" is that TRP is hateful. Seemingly completely blind to the fact that this is ALL TBP IS.

I don't like people who make monsters of others, especially not if they are doing so in order to mock and ridicule the monsters they have created in their own mind. That is a dark road... One that leads to hatred, and book burning, and the ability to ruin others lives and feel good about it safe in your moral hug box.

So that makes my skin crawl too. It just screams to me of pogroms, and mob justice, and lynchings. And they are totally blind to that "Because it's OK. They really are monsters, aren't they ? And mocking monsters shouldn't bother your conscience should it ? After all, it's not like they are humans or anything, right ?~The rest of TBP agrees~. Phew, glad I cleared that up. Now back to hating with a clear conscience"

Xemnas81 · 2015-10-22T16:46:32+00:00

I will play devil's advocate.

Mostly that they pretend that women don't actually see outlier males in all of their forms-incels, the mentally ill, the disabled, the autistic, the seriously socially awkward, the lonely-as ow status genetic waste, little more than boys, and by extension society heavily disrespects those men who are outliers for the same reason women do. The approval of women is simply a symptom of the status of these men and their inherent value to our society.

The concept of 'able-ism' is fairly new and part of the tenuous SJW kyriarchy. I believe that the psychological community enables outlier men to derive a fallacious and naive sense of equal value to the rest of the world since one of the accepted natures of feminised men is to indulge in victimhood, looked after by the wing of a benevolently matriarchal welfare state (at least in the UK). They teach such things as 'not lesser, just different'. The reality is most of these men will live a life devoid of many of the experiences that others will take for granted. Sex and romance is just the tip of the iceberg here, which they are almost bound to die without experiencing… but we can also include the genuine esteem of peers, social standing, intimacy, a loving family, guarantees of non-abandonment, passion, excitement, access to the 'high-end' life and just basic respect and social acceptance. This is most transparently seen in the social rejections by women but as mentioned, this is symptomatic of their alienation from society at large. In some cases this may even include equal opportunities for employment-that is, they are more likely to be disregarded for promotions, not invited to networking events, shunned by their tutors and employers, or even given sufficient hours by their boss to make a living wage. Of course, there will always be faux sympathy to the differently abled by society at large, as per political correctness, but just as desire cannot be negotiated, not can genuine respect be socially engineered.

Moreover, the psychological community's covert tendency to seek to redefine masculinity upon terms which suit the feminine imperative (Be Nice Be Respectful, women are people, etc.) will only further hinder their ability to achieve experiences Alphas and women take for granted. However, any outlier who challenges this re-definition overtly will swiftly find themselves under the controlling foot of the formerly benevolent matriarchs, at best filed under 'product of toxic masculinity' re: Connell's 'Hegemonic Masculinities' thesis, and at worst completely alienated from the daggered hand of the state.

http://www.avoiceformen.com/series/tom-goldens-mental-health-misandry/mni-misandry-in-psychological-research/

Of course we cannot guarantee how outliers will react to the brutal awakening to the fact that they are extremely disposable and unloved, but by extension I believe most people secretly loathe the outliers who give up, especially those who take their frustrations out on others (cf. Rodgers et. al., beta uprisings) but even those who simply quietly commit suicide or retreat to eternal hermitage.

A man has two choices. He can either sacrifice the respect of the world for the security of childhood, or he can relinquish the promise of security and risk his life for survival. In the latter he risks premature death, in the former he is damned to a half-life.

[deleted] · 2015-10-22T23:22:22+00:00

Denial of basic biological and genetic differences between men and women.

cats_or_get_out · 2015-10-23T00:02:45+00:00

I don't get the RPW hate.

I don't think they understand the difference between leader and boss.

Also, I am not RPW because of religion or BDSM (ewwww).

Gnometard · 2015-10-23T00:27:51+00:00

The fact that everything said by everyone online is 100,000,000⁷² % literal.

This idea that TRP, or red pill, is about manipulation rather than meeting a demand in a market most of us feel a biological need for and learning to communicate with women on their terms in a way they're receptive too.

Finally, the fact that EVERY SINGLE MOTHER FUCKING BP IN THIS SUB (not literally every single one, chill) is or is involved with a special snowflake. I've travelled the US, I've had more jobs than I'd like to admit, and I'm part of quite a few social groups, and although the majority of people I've met are great, they're all fucking similar. Where are all of you special snowflakes? Why is it so hard to accept that an animal has tendencies, when said animal is humans? AWALT is true! As is AMALT!

ThirdEyeSqueegeed · 2015-10-22T17:54:21+00:00

Generally, they lack compassion. They try to steer young men away from the red pill but when asked for an alternative they usually just say it's not their problem, and they're not interested in helping men get laid.

Also, while a lot of bloops are fairly reasonable (even if I disagree with their opinions) there are some who are very angry and full of hatred. The worst culprits are the men, some of whom appear to have a pathological view of masculinity, and only come on here to shit on their fellow man so they can fulfil their white knight fantasy.

prodigy2throw · 2015-10-22T17:07:42+00:00

The constant need to be politically correct and tiptoe around the feelings of a small group of people at the inconvenience of the majority.

InformalCriticism · 2015-10-22T21:59:30+00:00

I think if I had to pick one thing it's that they have no will, and perhaps no capacity, to consider any possibility outside of their own world view.

[deleted] · 2015-10-22T17:20:11+00:00

The most frustrating thing about BP 'ideology' is that it promotes a veneer of tolerance and equity that is compromised by an unprincipled core of identity politics.

[deleted] · 2015-10-22T17:37:06+00:00

I see the following argument progression from Blue Pill all the time. Goes like this:

The claim that TRP doesn't work to improve men's lives and as a viable sexual strategy.

Then when shown that it does work, the claim is that the men advancing TRP are lying.

Then when shown that these men aren't lying, the claim is that TRP works only on women who are slutty, shallow, broken, damaged, stupid or mentally ill.

Then when shown that many men who use TRP are in successful relationships and/or getting what they want from their sex lives with high quality women, the claim is that TRP is fraud, deception, manipulation, abuse and trickery.

There can never be any acknowledgment from Blue Pill that TRP might actually help some men.

Cartesian_Duelist · 2015-10-22T17:50:56+00:00

Blue Pill's near-complete, almost reflexive, rejection of generalizations. BP's vehement objections to generalizations of intersexual relationships is irrational to the point of pathology. BP acceptance and approval of generalizations about everything except intersexual relationships is downright insane.

[deleted] · 2015-10-22T19:45:30+00:00

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GaiusScaevolus · 2015-10-23T14:14:38+00:00

Many are extremely obtuse with any sort of simile or metaphor, to the extent i'm actually hoping it's intentional. Every word of text on TRP is taken in it's most literal, most evil interpretation, even when several TRP Mods/ECs/Vanguards explicitly say that it's to be taken metaphorically or interpreted differently. Concepts like 'dread' and 'LMR' are presumed rapey and abusive because it doesn't occur to many BPers that in the moment a man could calibrate his actions or identify the difference between LMR and real resistance.
They assume darkest intent for TRP/men and best intent for women. It's pulling teeth to get some of them to admit that women can do shitty things for malicious or callous reasons, but these same folks think every TRP man is an intentionally abusive misogynist and rapist.
They assumed homogeneity of TRP. Anytime the dig out a post that says something vicious, we're all expected to defend it. This is especially annoying when it's a new poster clearly venting, because again, every word of text is taken as literal gospel truth by some BP folks.

[deleted] · 2015-10-22T19:19:58+00:00

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[deleted] · 2015-10-23T03:09:06+00:00

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Mysteriouspaul · 2015-10-23T17:03:10+00:00

Late to the party, but my biggest complaint is BP's complete lack of understanding of what analogies are.

RPer will throw out a pretty solid analogy that explains a concept quite thoroughly and there's always at least 2 BP comments along the lines of "What do arctic tigers have to do with the smv? That analogy is fucking retarded." Dog this isn't fucking mathematics or something concrete where you can make an analogy that is always factually correct

HalfysReddit · 2015-10-23T18:45:21+00:00

IMO, TRP is the only source of relationship advice I've seen that admits people can be assholes.

It's not just enough to be in shape or charismatic or whatever else - I do believe that one should be aware that some people will fuck them over given the opportunity. And nowhere else do I see that concept addressed. Failing to discuss it leaves people vulnerable, and while ignorance may be blissful it is still ignorant and one should have the option of awareness.

poolerboy0077 · 2015-10-27T05:37:02+00:00

Most proponents appear like whiny, bitter juveniles, which doesn't really help in the self-improvement department IMO.

[deleted] · 2015-10-22T18:36:22+00:00

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[deleted] · 2015-10-23T06:45:29+00:00

It's not frustrating. It's just silly.

Title	Q4RP: What do you find most frustrating about non-RP/BP ideology?
Author	drok007
Upvotes	21
Comments	142
Date	October 22, 2015 4:32 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3pshj3/q4rp_what_do_you_find_most_frustrating_about/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4rp-what-do-you-find-most-frustrating-about-non.278909 https://theredarchive.com/post/278909

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