How to eliminate the "gender wage gap" [repost]

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What do you think of a day in this sub to recognize great women who have helped with men's rights?

I was thinking something along the lines Great Women Wednesday, or GWWday. It would be a great way to introduce people and newcomers to the figureheads of the movement and lead them to some excellent reading and other materials to lean from. It would also show very clearly that we aren't anti-women or such. We could also make a day for the men leading the movement, GMM for Great Men Monday?

I've been thinking we need an group activities people could work on and get them participating in the group. Other subs like /r/TwoXChromosomes/ has their IFF every Friday.

I'm thinking of trying to get people interested in another MOVEMBER day for posting their Movember achievements. Movember is almost over damnit, we need a showing!

edit : I'm trying. Not too many biting this morning.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3uviux/movember_madness_monday_i_gave_over_300_of_food/

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An actual socialist is about workers owning the means of production; as in, I would be the one making extra profits when my company does well instead of investors, and this seems to kinda make sense considering it was me who put in all that extra labor.

When Sanders says he's a "democratic socialist," he's implying a similar outcome, as you say, without the need to undermine the basis of capitalism.

Businesses are dictatorships. No matter how long a person owns them, they hold all the power. That means Mr. Sam Walton opens a little store, makes it successful, and not only does he get to retain that business against the full benefit of his workers, he also gets to pass that wealth draining onto his children who are then dictators of something they had no influence over, essentially a monarchy of power based on our capitalistic wealth reliance.

Now, how do we make this a little more sensible and avoid self-destruction after the slow deterioration of our middle-class and the violent rebellion that will follow?

Well, what created the middle-class?

When FDR was president, he gave us social security, minimum wage, child labor laws, and a fuckload of union support among other things. That created the middle-class. We weren't "entitled" to a 40 hour work week or overtime. He made that shit up out of thin fucking air. And that's how easy it should be to pull back the reins from our corporate oligarchy that's currently held us in the palm of their hand for decades.

Deny this all you want, because the corporate propaganda has been all too fucking strong against our own selfishness, yet it fully fucking empowers the selfishness of business as if it's somehow a moral good. I hope you live long into the future if people keep agreeing with you. You need to see the fall of America and the freedom we lose for the sake of the freedom of business dictatorships.

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The owner controls every aspect of the business, so yes. Average employees are completely under the control of the leader and he can make any business decision he wants with them. The only freedom is for the employee to leave. That would be equivalent to fleeing a country. This is particularly fitting considering successful businesses are finite, and people require part of that success to even exist. So if you're on the planet, you leave North Korea, head to Mexico, shit isn't any much better, then you try to "get a job" in America, but they don't hire you, what do you do? Holy shit fuck, where's the free will in this scenario? We have the freedom to get fucked by the lesser of all evils if we're okay with sucking its dick whenever it wants.

No, but this just got weird. The idea of a business being a dictatorship is pretty obvious. Under socialism, it would be a democracy. That would mean, for example, that amazingly important CEO making $40 million a year is now subject to logical democracy. The workers of the company get to vote of their value and give them a definitively higher cut depending on their actual value. So if specific CEOs really were so important, the best business democracies would be gladly voting to give that CEO a larger share of their profit.

Imagine that. A world where people make reasonable wages. Hell, they should also be subject to direct profits. Business does well one week, you get more money. Business does poorly the next week, you get a little less, but still a fuckload more than outside that system, no doubt. Take fast food, for example. "$15, say hello to your replacement touchscreen!" How about $20/hr, we take a pay cut for a few weeks to buy the touchscreens, then everyone splits hours again making the same amount of money and working 30 hours each instead of 40. Makes a shitload more sense than our current backwards obsession with "creating jobs."

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Trump into battle against the Mexicans

Yes. I am ready for battle. Point me to the front lines.

Obviously anything short of unfettered, unmonnitored immigration IS WAR. Obviously. lol /s

You are no better than the women that attack a man for being a rapist because he doesn't support their movement.

This is a joke. ZERO CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS.

You are exactly like the people you fight against, except for a different cause, from a different perspective.

Men are demonized and ostracized for nothing more than failing to inherently support their agenda. And they use inflammatory language to shut down debate and attack their enemies on a personal level because they cannot win in a straight up debate in the arena of ideas.

That's what you just did to Trump and his supporters. (and I don't even like trump)

You are the EXACT same as that which you fight.

Which is why you're losing.

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Socialism is inherently a redistribution of wealth from "undeserving" to "deserving" members of society, not based on merit but instead based on some perverse inherent "right".

The argument for the wage gap closure and the argument for socialism are effectively the same.

SOCIALISM:

"The difference in the salary between the owner of that company and his employees is too great"

.... "Okay, but he built the company, or his dad built the company. They DID something to justify that difference"

"Doesn't matter. Those employees have a right to live a comfortable lifestyle too. He wouldn't have that company if he hadn't built it on the backs of the less fortunate. How dare you! Grrrr"

WAGE GAP:

"The difference in salary between the average man and average woman is too great".

..... "Okay but men are doing jobs that are more in demand so it makes sense that they earn more on average because they are actually doing something to create that gap"

"Doesn't matter. You wouldn't even have those careers if generations of women hadn't been subservient and women have a right to equal pay! How dare you. Grrrrr"

Lets consider two families:

My neighbor is a working class guy. He holds a decent, but unimpressive job, spends most of his time outside of work in leisure...watching sports, maybe he owns a small boat. He goes to the movies. blaa blaa. He loves his son and buys him nice shoes and clothes and cool toys and takes him to Disney once.

I own a business and work like 65 hours a week for years. I hardly do anything for leisure and any extra money I have I sink back into my business. I really don't waste money on extra stuff for my son. He doesn't have the newest oakley shades or most expensive nike shoes. He's never been on a vacation out of state.

At some point I hire the man from the other family to work for me. And he works hard. He is a good worker. But he is my employee and he earns a wage while I maintain CAPITAL in a growing company.

Upon my death, do you think that my wealth should be taxed at 90% or some other such nonsense that would effectively REDISTRIBUTE my son's inheritance to my employee's son? Should they now be equal?

Look, you'll find plenty of disagreement over socialism, and probably what socialism even IS, just like disagreements over what libertarianism is, but I promise you one thing:

Most people who believe in socialism believe in the gender wage gap. I guarantee it.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

i believe in socialism, up to a certain point, and i'm absolutely no supporter of the wage pay gap. that said your points is well thought and i respect your view on this matter. the question between socialism/kapitalism will always be:

He wouldn't have that company if he hadn't built it on the backs of the less fortunate.

the people who build the company from scratch always deserve more than the rest, no doubt about it. the question however is "how much more?" they took the risk and that risk payed off and the reward should be theirs. but consider this: why should the company CEO that has held the company since the start get 20x+ the salary of the "normal" worker that has worked there too since the start? but that's just small scale. why should the upper class, even though they have worked just as hard, if not harder than the rest, not get taxed the same (in precentages) as the others? why should the middle/low class pay half of their income in taxes but the upper class less? but that's what's happening in the USA at this very moment (luckily not in europe)

and another point you brought up: the problem of inheritance. we, as a society, agreed that power should not be inherited. that's why we got rid of monarchies. but why should power in wealth be any different. why should your grown son, who has work of his own, inherit everything you owned upon your death? if you die when he is still <18 it's a whole different story off course, but shouldn't he have to earn the right to your property just like everyone else? that's what socialism, for me, is. everyone is equal and everyone should have the chance to make it, no one deserves a head start and no one should have the right to withhold anyone from gaining that opportunity. but at the same time the more fortunate people should realise that they hold a responsibility for all of us, not just themselves (and that goes both way). they have the power and wealth to make the country a better place for all of us and for that power and that responsibility they should get rewarded, not the fact that they made it. the wealthy should be rewarded by all of us if they care for the rest of us (so if they willingly take a higher tax rate for example). and i guess that stance, especially the inheritance part, is pretty radical for most people but if you look at America and much of the western world inheritance is one of the biggest problems for the income gap. that way all the wealth in the world will continue to belong to the wealthy. and the part about everyone being equal, that was feminism at its core, the feminism i believed and the feminism I still believe in. but that time is long gone and here we are now: supporting a males right group because the females forgot what the definiton of equality is.

i know some things in this mind rubble are contradictory, to be honest i'm not sure where i stand in a lot of those points, but it may be food for thought. it's my believe that everything, literally every single thing (so yes, even the nazis and the reds and yes, even isis) had/have some good points that should be considered, and no matter how crazy thing may seem there will always be some truth in every theory. if you can find all those truths in every -ism and fight a middle way/not get extremist about it/ not disadvantage anyone else in every single one of them that's when you've reached enlightment, and also done the impossible.

anyway this rambling has been going on too long. keep fighting the good fight!

ps: for anyone reading this and thinking that i'm in any way a nazi/commi/isis supporter

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Right, but the point stands. Why are women working less?

No, your point doesn't stand, until and unless you can show specific examples that illustrate your argument. Up till now, all I can see from you is generic "waah discrimination women". Why are you asking us for reasons that women engineers work less? Why don't you ask them?

Why does a man who work the same job and same hours, on average, make more money?

Again with this claim. If you have evidence of real differences in pay rates, go right ahead and show us (after you've reported these discriminatory practices to the relevant authorities, that is). If you provide sufficient evidence of a female engineer being paid less than a male for doing the same job (assuming equal qualifications, comparable experience and aptitude, and equal productivity [or at the least, a willingness to put in the same effort over the same number of hours]), I'm sure everyone here will support you in putting your case before the relevant authorities.

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Lol. I know you're all delusional manbabies who are barely a half-step removed from redpillers here, but I'd hope even you cretins could see that this post is proof positive that this subreddit, and indeed the "men's rights" movement as a whole has absolutely nothing to do with advocating for men and everything to do with advocating against feminism. But calling yourself "men's rights" sounds less like an asshole move than "anti-feminists", sort of like "pro-life" sounds better than "anti-women's autonomy".

The only time you even bother to roll out the obligatory "but custodial rights!" defense(s) is when someone calls your bullshit on being a purely destructive movement with no constructive aims. Then you have to pretend like the handful of noble goals that actually exist towards the betterment of men that intersectional feminists have already been addressing better and for longer than MRAs have even existed are somehow your true and noble aims, when we all know that couldn't be farther from the truth.

[–]marinkydinkydink[S] 29 points30 points31 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[+]KipEnyan -24 points-23 points-22 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

There does exist some gender wage gap, and many more significant and concerning problems women face in the workplace, but the "78 cents" or whatever narrative is, by and large, complete shit. As a feminist, it's frustrates me immensely every time it's dragged back out because there are plenty of arguments to be made that have strong factual data to back them but this is not one.

All of that is completely beside the point, however. The point is that this subreddit is called "MensRights", and is ostensibly about male issues and how to improve them. Except it's not. Anything addressing male issues makes up a small minority of the content, and is never anywhere near as popular as the anti-feminist rhetoric that pops up on a daily basis. MensRights and MRAs as a whole are a hate group. Their primary concern is attacking feminism and feminists. And all it does is make it harder to make real progress on real men's issues because reasonable, compassionate people all see MRAs for the hate group they are, and what could be a movement for the betterment of men and by extension all mankind is instead a tool for exactly the opposite.

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Here's an article by a feminist talking about how feminists have corrupted partner violence research to hide/dismiss/ignore male victims. It's pretty clear in this example that feminist actions harm men.

We we go looking for biases in how much we pay women verses men for the same job, we can't find them. When all the factors to ensure we are comparing apples to apples, are taken into account, we are left with a few percent difference between men and women, but that might be due to a factor we have not considered.

If gender roles and biases affect our choices, what do you suggest we do? Force people to make other choices? Introduce more biases into society?

I think it is better to give people as much freedom to choose as possible, but as people choose different trade-offs, that will mean that the outcome will never be completely equal for everyone.

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[–]MrDoradus 26 points27 points28 points 10 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

You seem to have missed the point of the statistics regarding wages, in a spectacular manner no less.

Statistics do show that there is indeed wage gap between sexes, no one is denying that and no one can argue it doesn't exist. It just doesn't mean what feminists want us to mean, what you repeated just now:

that women make less for the SAME job.

That's very far from the truth and already illegal. The fact that all wages men make and all wages women make are so different is because of choices people make, which dr. Hoff sums up nicely in this tweet, or as you'd call it "autistic circlejerk".

All in all, you couldn't have gotten it more backwards.

tl/dr: wage gap exists, but it does not mean women earn less for the SAME job. Only feminists and people who haven't (or aren't capable) given it enough thought would say so.

Edit: PS, though I really don't know if that's (that women do earn less for the same job and that there isn't a wage gap) what you're saying or there was a screw up on how you worded yourself.

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[–]MrDoradus 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The image is making a claim to the point you're trying to tell me, which is not the claim feminists are making, because that'd just be irrational to be upset about.

OK, I think we're all on the same page here, hopefully. You just misinterpreted what this post was about.

This is a well known rational thinking feminist dr. H. Summers that makes fun of the many misinterpretations current mainstream feminism has. With this, she implied that if women made better career choices, there'd be no more wage gap (the average one, not for the same job), basically ridiculing their cherry-picking and misinterpretation of the data on wages.

tl/dr: She knows women are paid the same for the same job and that the wage gap is a consequence of choices and this is her way of making fun of feminists who think otherwise, that women actually earn less for the same job.

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Title	How to eliminate the "gender wage gap" [repost]
Author	marinkydinkydink
Upvotes	3242
Comments	332
Date	November 29, 2015 9:53 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3urjai/how_to_eliminate_the_gender_wage_gap_repost/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-to-eliminate-the-gender-wage-gap-repost.966096 https://theredarchive.com/post/966096

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