This might be a controversial statement but I feel like a lot of western FDS users really don't understand the level of misogyny in the third world and what women HAVE TO DO to survive in our cultures

subgirlygirl · 2021-12-18T05:46:13+00:00

'Pickme' has definitely become a blanket word/term to define any woman who's putting up with undesirable behavior. But that's not what it is - or at least not what it originally meant - and it most definitely doesn't refer to women who are in precarious or dangerous situations dealing with volatile men or family members acting on cultural norms the rest of us know nothing about.

MariaDolorosa · 2021-12-18T05:52:43+00:00

Yes and unfortunately it does extend to women in poverty in otherwise developed nations. It’s easy to think that western men are somehow intrinsically more feminist but our freedoms are only as good as our laws. We can’t rely on the good nature of humanity alone. It simply will fail us.

We have to be constant advocates for vulnerable girls and women worldwide.

Shrews, harpies, witches, bitches, whatever. We can use our voices and resources to lift up other women, no matter what we’re called in the process.

OP, you’re right. It is unsafe for many women to advocate for themselves and I do think most women here understand that. For those of us who are fortunate enough to speak out, we should always remember that it’s not just about us but also for women around the world who are not safe to do so.

Noemie_Mathilde · 2021-12-18T10:35:38+00:00

It's true, without having experienced the situation women in more oppressive countries suffer, we can't really begin to imagine how that must feel. I see articles about women who are burned with acid or harmed by family members and my heart breaks. We certainly don't consider women trapped in such situations pickmes, but maybe FDS members from similar countries can provide the best advice and support?

Emergency-Feed8216 · 2021-12-18T08:37:46+00:00

Great points. As a former advocate for dv survivors, I'd add there are instances where even western women have choices limited by circumstances beyond their control or such enormous risks from being seen to take control that they're playing possum to survive another day.

I have no problem with criticisms of Pickmes who take down other women in service to men despite not having a gun to their head forcing them to, or who police other women for not Pickme dancing hard enough. But unless I'm willing to throw my body in front of bullets, knives, fists or speeding pickup trucks when things go south for another woman due taking my advice to "just leave" an ab.user, I'm not going to judge if she can't manage it that minute.

Ab.used women do leave even if takes a statistical average of seven attempts. Not all meek behavior is genuine submission or catering.

VenusInsufficiency · 2021-12-18T06:12:20+00:00

I do not believe that being a pickmeisha applies to people who have no choice, as then they are not picking anything. It's an oppressive society (or, more likely: an oppressive man, or men) who are dominating.

While I can appreciate and sympathize with your post and sentiment, I hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive us western FDS folks. I personally think the FDS ideals cannot be accurately or remotely effectively applied to all situations, especially not for people who live in 3rd world countries, or who are within some certain cultures. Does it mean that you are not valuable because you cannot be out about the Queen you are? No. You are still valuable and special. Please know your worth, even if you can't actually live your truth, or stand up for yourself.

Being an advocate for yourself and for others is often only possible for people in positions of privilege. It's hard to fight for fair treatment of women if you have to fight to survive. It's like how only people with money can afford to have good health sometimes, because being poor can cost you all your energy (hard working hours, not enough money for good food, can't pay anyone else to take care of kids etc.).

I see the FDS ideals as ones that I personally can ascribe to, and because I happen to be in a position of power (white, living in a developed country, excellent health, middle class income, educated) it means that it is more my responsility to try and advocate for others. I have the privilege and the ability to do so. So I'm gonna push others to be Queens, Level Up, and Know Their Worth. But when I know that there are people out there who reasonably cannot do those things for themselves (like people in 3rd world countries) then it's my privilege to try and do it for others through activism, philanthropy, and various means of enacting change in places that I do not live.

It's not a perfect system. But you're not alone. You've got a whole world of women rooting for you.

s_slayer · 2021-12-18T12:44:04+00:00

A gynecologist I saw a few times was a very kind, caring woman. I believe she was Indian or Pakistani. I saw her at the mall one day. Her husband, of the same ethnicity, was absolutely berating her as they walked out, she had her head down and was just silent. Even being highly educated can’t protect you once you’ve been married. I’m not sure of her situation but it was really troubling to see such a kind woman being obviously abused to the point of her husband doing it openly in public even. This was here in the US.

cicerii · 2021-12-18T14:47:51+00:00

And a lot of libfems act like these men are oppressed because they aren’t white too, while these men oppress their wives and sisters.But that part is conveniently ignored.

asoww · 2021-12-18T06:57:54+00:00

I agree with you entirely. Added to that, some users here are forgetting that "choosing" to stay in a situation can also be an unconscious reaction to a vulnerable state whatever the reason is (A childhood trauma or a recent event, it could be anything). Some western users unfortunately have that mentality that every single thing within a human's life is because of the individual's doing and forget to question the context (Sometimes it's irrelevant and other times it isn't ). But that is also a very westernised point of view so this is not surprising either.

HappyCoconutty · 2021-12-18T14:48:14+00:00

I’m Bangladeshi American and my parents are considered to be “liberal” when it comes to social practices.

But I know of many Desi American girls here who are in upper middle class or from rich families who got sent back to South Asia against their will once they were caught dating a boy or even just talking to one on the phone. And sometimes not even in the city with cousins but in the village to do manual labor.

My brother’s wife was a law school graduate but couldn’t move to another state for a job unless she got engaged first. Both her parents were doctors. Ridiculous. In the meantime, their 40 year old son was constantly in and out of rehab and never held a job on his own his entire life (they have now secured him a wife from South Asia that can’t speak English but is amazing at cooking and chores).

My wealthy cousins in Bangladesh practice a form of FDS without calling it such. They are in their early 40s, highly successful, good looking and fit - and absolutely refused to settle for all the cheating, balding, controlling and sexist options they had available there. They would rather remain single and happy and their parents are fine with it because even the parents see how dismal the options are. Who wants their daughter to marry a loser?

Specific-Composer300 · 2021-12-18T09:05:57+00:00

At least western FDS users are honest there is a massive problem in their world countries though. Nowadays liberals online will say you can't say anything negative because it's not your culture, don't judge, you're being "islamophobic" etc 🙄

LR_today · 2021-12-18T06:16:31+00:00

No. I'd like to think other women, like myself, understand completely that the FDS rules are for western and/or secular countries only. Further, most understand the extreme conditions other women must endure to merely survive, let alone progress, in a entirely patriarchal society where women are treated as less than human.

Until basic human rights are established for women, they can't be expected to live up to the standards set by FDS or women in societies that they are somewhat equal.

spoonxxm · 2021-12-18T12:02:34+00:00

I feel like that’s mostly the fault of libfems. I come from a muslim country and everytime I try to tell people that muslim women, especially muslim women in muslim countries, are oppressed people want to call me an islamophobic lol They think they’re being woke by defending a sexist religion/culture but in reality they’re harming the women in those countries.

UnevenHanded · 2021-12-18T12:47:00+00:00

As an Indian woman, I take what's best and leave the rest. I'm constantly adapting what I learn from my Western sisters 🥰 I'm almost thirty, so I have decades of experience of the lengths I have to go to to keep myself safe in India. I've lived here my whole life, and I know what's practicable and to what extent. What principles have to be adapted to suit our circumstances.

I find FDS incredibly valuable in that the radical honesty I see here is unique to this space. I've learned so much about my own socialisation and how men are socialised. It's the only space I've ever participated in where there's no excuses made for male behaviour, no sugarcoating the reality of it OR self-pity and victim mentality. That's not to say people are not made victims. We are. And then we become survivors. And then we grow past that, too, and are no longer defined by the trauma inflicted upon us.

All that being said, thank you, OP, for sharing your feelings. I think it's an important perspective to add to the conversation. Those of us privileged enough to have choices, and yeah, being in India as a woman born into an educated, middle-class family of a certain caste DOES afford me a LOT of privileges... those of us with privilege should always be grateful.

I also think it can get very daunting, if you feel like these are the non-negotiable behavioural guidelines you have to adhere to, to be a feminist or embody a queen mindset. That's not true. Anything that can help you is yours to use. These are all just resources provided to you, and growth happens in small steps. None of us is expecting perfection from ourselves, everyone here is about giving ourselves grace ❤

It's also such a Thing, ingrained into Desi culture - women are raised to believe and feel like their actions reflect on their families, while men's actions only reflect on themselves. To some extent this is a universal experience for women. Misogyny is much the same everywhere, even when the specifics and details are different 🙃 I don't feel any kind of judgement liek that in this sub, at all. We've all experienced struggles that are much the same, even if the extent and specifics are different.

In fact, I'm always surprised at how universal our challenges at, for women. How universal misogynistic behaviour is, how universal male entitlement is... If anything, it serves as a powerful validation of the undeniable reality we live in, that even the most privileged women in the most "developed" nations have very relatable, very female struggles in life.

I appreciate all the comments clarifying the intention of developing a queen mindset. Even if just within our inner world, it's not nothing. Not by any means. Speaking from experience, it can make life worth living ❤ Our inner world is what informs what choices we are able to perceive, even, not just what we choose out of the pre-existing lineup we inherit.

Thanks for sharing, OP! And thank you to everyone who's commented. The comments were kind but honest, and I appreciate that.

Platipus6 · 2021-12-18T08:57:39+00:00

Pickme's are women who have choice, and they want to be picked by LVMs.

A lot of women don't want to be picked, but have no choice.

extragouda · 2021-12-18T06:48:24+00:00

Unfortunately the majority of the world is not as liberal as Australia, New Zealand, North America, and many countries in Europe. And even in those cases, there are some communities where FDS would get you killed. This is why my feminism is intersectional and not just radical. I never forget that white American feminism was created off the backs of black women. I also don't forget that in many places in the world, merely being a girl who is still in school is a feminist act. There is also domestic violence, which is so common everywhere, it is scary. For women in developed countries where education is freely available to them, where divorce is legal, and where leaving one's family doesn't get you killed (necessarily), I think FDS is useful.

duascoisas · 2021-12-18T06:38:16+00:00

100%.

I just take what works for me and my circumstance, and keep the rest for later. But what you describe is something that exists in the larger feminist movement. There’s a clear demarcation between a western (read: white) woman’s view of feminism vs everyone else.

I’m not trying to be divisive, but this is why terms like intersectionality exist. As listeners/readers/members of this community, we have to select and filter and sometimes adapt certain concepts to really fit our local contexts. Culture, history, social class, these are all factors that greatly shape our range of “choices” and subsequent decisions.

Saga-the-fierce · 2021-12-18T10:21:37+00:00

This is a difficult one and I'm sure you may think I'm controversial for saying this but I don't agree.

I use this sub everyday and I've not seen any posts or comments insinuating that women in oppressive countries or cultures are pickmes. There have been discussion around religious beliefs and how they primarily benefit men, and perhaps encouraging women to avoid this where possible. That's not the same as insinuating these women who are trapped are pickmes.

This is a Westernised sub-reddit which is why a lot of the content refers to techniques that can be applied in a Westernised context. This is the main audience.

Most women on this subreddit have an awareness that women in oppressive cultures must do what they can to survive. FDS isn't a do-or-die rulebook. Everything here is designed to maximise benefit for women.

Most women here are Westernised and if they even attempted to write a post trying to offer advice to women in oppressive cultures, they would be vilified. It's not fair to say that FDS doesn't offer enough for women in these cultures, because most women here don't have the knowledge or the experience to post strategy for these circumstances.

I think if a woman with this knowledge and experience wrote a strategy post designed for women in these situations, it would be welcomed with open arms by the FDS community.

MajesticSkyPachyderm · 2021-12-18T07:51:36+00:00

I don't think that's true and that's a bit unfair. FDS was created on Reddit which is an American website, so of course it will resonate way more with American women and those with a similar culture, and mostly apply to & reflect those. But that doesn't mean there is no awareness of how much worse the situation is in other countries. It just means that we talk about what we know and experience, and how we can improve our situation.

For instance, my mother is from Africa and my father from Europe; I grew up in Europe, so I'm intimately familiar with the European/Western flavour of misogyny, but I'm aware how much "easier" I have it here. But that doesn't mean I can't discuss what it's like where I grew up and live, and how to make it better here, just because my mother had it worse in her country of origin and it's better for her here than it was over there. I'm not going to just "count myself lucky" or stop calling out women here who reinforce the type of patriarchy we have, just because it's worse elsewhere.

With all that said, women from different culture should not stop themselves from posting on FDS if they so wish and share the strategies that work for them. FDS at heart is about maximising female benefits and improving women's lives, and it will look different depending on where you're from because the situation/starting point is different.

Edit: a missing word and emphasis.

woadsky · 2021-12-18T09:27:29+00:00

Thank you for reminding us of this, and how lucky some of us are to live in a country where we can take action and change our situations if needed. I hate that women have it so rough in some cultures, to the point of possible death if they stand up for themselves. It is sickening. Woman from such deeply misogynist cultures deserve respect for what they do to stay alive, rather than be labeled as a pick-me. Let's support each other and avoid judging others.

Perhaps some here would be interested in making a donation to help the women in these countries as a show of solidarity. I have not vetted this organization, but I have heard of it and will pass the name along: Women for Women International. They assist women who are victims of domestic violence, genital mutilation, child marriage, etc.

Saga-the-fierce · 2021-12-18T11:46:21+00:00

I'm going to add another thing because this post has frustrated me.

I understand it must be extremely frustrating that you are using a subreddit that you wish had more context aimed at you.

You've flaired this post as a discussion, but let's face it, it's really a rant. This hasn't resulted in much of a constructive dialogue.

OP, you've identified a gap in the FDS community. There are many situations that women cannot control. This content that you want to read needs to start coming from YOU. This is something that is in YOUR control. YOU are in a position to lead on this.

Some constructive suggestions: could there be an FDS flair for posts aimed at women in oppressive situations? How about some posts that highlight ways to win or survive, even if it may seem like a small win to Westernised women? How can the FDS community help?

If you start the constructive content now, perhaps this time next year there will be an increase in the user base. But having a rant about FDS only applied to Western women, prompting users to post their guilt and you continuing to sit around waiting for others to post the content you want isn't constructive.

Comments