Male Privilege | MensRights

[–]thatsahotpickle 326 points327 points328 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheRunawayBrit 26 points27 points28 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]chinawinsworlds 59 points60 points61 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Sgshallow -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]rwwman50 -6 points-5 points-4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]conspirized -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ISOanexplanation 100 points101 points102 points 10 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Qapiojg 93 points94 points95 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]ISOanexplanation -28 points-27 points-26 points 10 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]OllieWille 21 points22 points23 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]throwthetrash16 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ISOanexplanation -5 points-4 points-3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]throwthetrash16 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Astomi 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Headsock 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Headsock 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]soalone34 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Gequinn 23 points24 points25 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]epicandrew 16 points17 points18 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Flaktrack 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]epicandrew 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]xkcd_transcriber 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ArchVileRespawned 52 points53 points54 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 14 points15 points16 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ajinho 18 points19 points20 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 33 points34 points35 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]SkeptiCynical 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]e_d_a_m 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]morthond 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]expletive-deleted 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AgingAluminiumFoetus 21 points22 points23 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]SuggestiveMaterial -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]toysjoe 19 points20 points21 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Trident1000 22 points23 points24 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]suRubix 18 points19 points20 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]KnowsAboutMath 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]pure4life986 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Beltox2pointO 11 points12 points13 points 10 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]Home-Before-Dark 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I actually looked into it a while ago...ill try to find the website, forgive me if I don't follow through.. I'm easily distracted.

But it was something like 80%+ of custody cases are settled out of court with a vast majority being figured out before mediation even begins where both parents sit down and agree to terms for whatever reasons work for their personal lives.

It also brought up the point that in most instances men don't seek custody in the first place which may be indicative of a larger societal problem but you can't really point fingers at a custodial mother when the father never asked for custody in the first place.

In the cases where father's did seek joint or full custody they were granted it in about 70% of cases.

There is definitely room for improvement and as we continue to break down gender walls these numbers will continue to change.. What is certain is sole paternal custody has risen over 300% since the early 80s and that is very good!

[–]TomwaIvory 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

But it was something like 80%+ of custody cases are settled out of court with a vast majority being figured out before mediation even begins where both parents sit down and agree to terms for whatever reasons work for their personal lives.

How many of those men didn't fight because they knew they couldn't beat the bias against them?

A default shared parenting law is necessary.

It also brought up the point that in most instances men don't seek custody in the first place which may be indicative of a larger societal problem but you can't really point fingers at a custodial mother when the father never asked for custody in the first place.

Default shared parenting law. If the man doesn't want custody or unfit the court can rebuke it (same with the women).

There is definitely room for improvement

DEFAULT SHARED PARENTING LAW.

Stop perpetuating the narrative that fathers are terrible people (and using that crappy narrative to justify preventing any man from having default equal rights unless proven otherwise).

Feminist organization NOW (National Organization for Women) fights against default shared parenting keeping children from their fathers. http://www.nownys.org/archives/leg_memos/oppose_a00330.html

We need to completely rid the family court system of the ability to instantly and unarguably remove the rights of a parent unless proven to be unfit.

[–]e_d_a_m 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I can not voice how right you are.

Seriously. I just tried, and have written, rewritten and rewritten again my response, but it's just too personal and -- even 2 years on -- I don't think I'm actually ready to talk about it yet...

The big problem with the current system is that it incentivises the parties to try to take custody of the children. A parent who comes away with a lion's share of the care of the children,

is going to receive large sums of child maintenance from the other,
is very likely to be able to keep any house involved (even if it belonged to the other!), and
on a most basic level, gets to assert control over the parent (and don't underestimate this as a factor!).

In short, in situations that are often quite bitter, the current system incentivises parents to try to screw the other parent, and also their own kids in the process!

Conversely, even if one parent has had a lesser role in their children's upbringing, it is absolutely right that the default position is for equal shared care.

It reflects the fact that both parents are equally responsible for their children.
If one parent does not want that responsibility, they can always then negotiate with the other to be able to reduce it in exchange for payment. But, crucially, that makes it the option of a parent as to whether they would rather pay to take a reduced role in their children's lives, which, if anything, incentivises parents to remain a part of their children's lives!
Fundamentally, to not default to 50/50 is to make basic presumptions about competency and/or suitability of a parent based on their gender, which, aside from being overtly sexist, is very often going to be wrong. Such presumptions are a bias and, as such, get in the way of determining what is best for the children (or anyone else) in an individual case.
It removes any issue of one parent trying to take control (to the detriment of the children).

Obviously, if there are reasons why care should not be equally shared, then they should be taken in to account. But even here, those reasons should have to be established and proven, the same as with any other allegations. As it stands, one parent and their children are penalised without evidence, based on the word of someone who stands to gain from making the allegations and is involved in an (often bitter) dispute involving children and is therefore very possibly acting in self-interest, rather than in the interests of their children.

This shit's so obvious that it boggles my brain that it isn't already in effect. The very fact that it still isn't is a towering monument to exactly how hard-wired human beings are when it comes how our dealings with men and women differ...

[–]TomwaIvory 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]XeroDream 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lechateau 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]killcat 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[+]Lechateau -6 points-5 points-4 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]trnajshgfdbxs -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lechateau -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Where is it said that men should no be helped?!

You said and I quote:

The homicides statistic is also laughable

You think men being murdered is funny? That's pretty fucked up.

Only mentioned that it is multifactorial and for the vast majority contained within one gender.

Which do you believe gets more media attention: Homicide (Primarily affecting men) or Rape (Primarily affecting women)?

Do you think that if Rape was primarily women raping women (Women raping men\boys is already ignored)that it should\would be ignored?

Relevant facts on how rare rape is:

[1] Attempted Rape is incredibly low for students and non-students in the most vulnerable age group.

"For the period 1995–2013, females ages 18 to 24 not enrolled in a post-secondary school were 1.2 times more likely to experience rape and sexual assault victimization (7.6 per 1,000), compared to students in the same age range (6.1 per 1,000) (table 1)"http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

[1a] The rate of Completed Rapes is even lower: "The rate of completed rape for nonstudents (3.1 per 1,000) was 1.5 times higher than for students (2.0 per 1,000). " http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

[1b] Rape has been decreasing rapidly and of statistics in 2014 rates were as low as 1.1 per 1000 for the general population. (See Table 1) http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv14.pdf

[–]Lechateau -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]killcat 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[+]Lechateau -8 points-7 points-6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Temperfuelmma 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Lechateau 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MsArya 15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (56 children) | Copy Link

Sure, I'll take a shot at this. We don't have a draft, so I'm not sure how combat deaths is really relevant. These are people who chose to go to the frontlines as soldiers, and the military is largely still a boy's club so there's not nearly as many women in the military so you should be using a % of men that die while serving and % of women that die while serving.

Homocide victims is a weird one as well. While certainly true, there are other violent crimes that women are more likely to be affected by. Its one of those things where you're just cherry picking

82% of all juvenile victims are female. 90% of adult rape victims are female.

Females ages 16-19 are 4 times more likely than the general population to be victims of rape, attempted rape, or sexual assault.

1 out of 6 women have been victims of rape

1 in 71 men have been victims of rape or attempts

Industrial Deaths are very similar to military deaths where women just won't be in the field nearly as much. Its a field that's been a boys club for a long time and a lot of them won't hire women because they feel that they can't get the job done due to strength, work ethic, or whatever.

Suicides is the one that really made me want to talk about this though. That's the statistic for successful suicides. That does not take into account the attempted suicide rate where women have a MUCH MUCH higher rate of attempted suicide. This is due to the methods that men and women typically choose. Men usually use a gun and women usually use pills. With pills they're able to regret it and get help, or have a failed attempt. With a gun, a failed attempt is a lot less likely.

Also I'm not sure I understand this custody chart. Where is joint custody? Or neither? I feel like those are both pretty important to understanding the numbers on it.

[–]flee_market 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Home-Before-Dark 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

Where are your citations?

That does not take into account the attempted suicide rate where women have a MUCH MUCH higher rate of attempted suicide.

So a man dying counts as much as a woman who tried unsuccessfully? How many times is an unsuccessful attempt recounted?

This is due to the methods that men and women typically choose. Men usually use a gun and women usually use pills.

Do you think say, women are FAR MORE LIKELY to make a call for help? Do you think men see a system stacked against them (No Men's Center at their campus, no Men's only help lines, practically no Male help to be found!) and simply end it with complete determination?

Also I'm not sure I understand this custody chart. Where is joint custody? Or neither? I feel like those are both pretty important to understanding the numbers on it.

Fact of the matter: It shouldn't be an issue. Default shared parenting with equal parenting time should be the case but Women (primarily Feminists) fought against that.

Feminist organization NOW (National Organization for Women) fights against default shared parenting keeping children from their fathers. http://www.nownys.org/archives/leg_memos/oppose_a00330.html

Here's a significantly improved chart from a while back (it is of my own making) with specific links and citations (page numbers, tables, etc.) https://imgur.com/WWozf7O

[–]MsArya -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

So a man dying counts as much as a woman who tried unsuccessfully? How many times is an unsuccessful attempt recounted?

Think of it this way. There are 5 men who commit suicide. There are 15 women who attempt suicide, some of which survive because your body can painfully shut down a pill suicide attempt. The fact is, those 15 women were trying to die just as much as the 5 men who did end up committing suicide. Just because they ended up getting help doesn't somehow make the deaths of the men more important than their attempts or vice versa.

As for how many times an unsuccessful attempt is recounted, each attempt is one attempt. You probably don't know this, but if someone is attempting suicide and we know about it to the point that we can document it for statistics, they will be put in a hospital and forced to get help. That's why the death rate is so much lower as well. With men shooting themselves, its a lot harder to get them the help they need.

http://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

Do you think say, women are FAR MORE LIKELY to make a call for help? Do you think men see a system stacked against them (No Men's Center at their campus, no Men's only help lines, practically no Male help to be found!) and simply end it with complete determination?

Why would you think women are far more likely to call for help? It seems that more women are attempting suicide than men for sure, so it seems like they feel like they can't call for help. The reason they end up surviving is because almost everyone who attempts suicide regrets it immediately. This is actually something we have evidence of with people who jump off bridges and ended up surviving for whatever reason, or people who take pills. The pills are not an instant death, and its a very painful one, so once that pain or the threat of imminent death start to show up, their problems don't seem so bad anymore.

As to Men's Centers and Men's only help lines, I don't see those as relevant to this. You do realize the national suicide prevention hotline : http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ is for everyone right? You can also call your 24/7 crisis center in your local area at any time.

Fact of the matter: It shouldn't be an issue. Default shared parenting with equal parenting time should be the case but Women (primarily Feminists) fought against that.

Well, I'm not so sure this is the article you want to use to say that feminists are out to get you. This is literally what they say in that link :

The National Organization for Women-New York State, Inc. is in favor of primary caregiver presumption. This means that the parent who assumed primary responsibility for the children during the marriage, either father or mother, should continue to be the custodial parent

And this as well

Fathers Rights groups continue to promote the myth that courts are biased in favor of mothers. In litigated cases, father who sue for custody almost always win. In fact, fathers are often awarded sole custody even when sexual and physical abuse of the children is alleged and substantiated. According to The American Judges Association, 70% of the time the abuser convinces the court to give him custody.

And your chart is literally no different from the one in the OP, just having some citations that are linked under it. Workplace death is going to be much higher for men because a lot of people won't hire women in the jobs that can cause death, such as oil rigs or the military. Undergrad enrollment looks fine to me. Does it need to be 50/50? Because a 56/44 split is pretty even I'd say.

And let's look at your homeless statistic, because its not quite right either and is missing some context.

The US Interagency Council on Homelessness estimates that of the chronically homeless 75% are male. One third of those are veterans. In case you are wondering 97% of the homeless vets are male.

This is because of our extremely poor veteran's care programs and mental health system. And those are currently being reformed, even if it is slow. If we ignore the veterans for a second, you can see that 1/3 of the 75% were the veterans. 1/3 of 75% is 25% which puts it at roughly a 50% men/women split. Its hard to say just how much it would go down from fixing the mental health system, but I'm sure we'll be finding out in the next 10 to 15 years.

[–]TomwaIvory 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

The fact is, those 15 women were trying to die just as much as the 5 men who did end up committing suicide

Prove it. They intentionally choose a non-lethal method, despite knowing how unsuccessful it is.

As for how many times an unsuccessful attempt is recounted, each attempt is one attempt.

Wrong, that's not how statistics work and that's not how the CDC gathers it's statistics. This would require a massive national database to track each and every person who has ever committed suicide (in order to remove double detection) which does not exist.

but if someone is attempting suicide and we know about it to the point that we can document it for statistics, they will be put in a hospital and forced to get help.

I've attempted suicide, they give you a few days in a psych ward and send you on your way. Please do not talk about things you are ignorant of.

Why would you think women are far more likely to call for help? It seems that more women are attempting suicide than men for sure, so it seems like they feel like they can't call for help.

They intentionally choose a non-lethal method, despite knowing how unsuccessful it is.

The reason they end up surviving is because

They intentionally choose a non-lethal method, despite knowing how unsuccessful it is.

Leading causes of Death, females (2013)

1) Heart disease 22.4

2) Cancer 21.5

3) Chronic lower respiratory diseases 6.1

4) Stroke 5.8

5) Alzheimer's disease 4.6

6) Unintentional injuries 3.8

7) Diabetes 2.8

8) Influenza and pneumonia 2.3

9) Kidney disease 1.8

10) Septicemia 1.6

http://www.cdc.gov/women/lcod/2013/index.htm

Leading causes of Death, males (2013)

1) Heart disease

2) Cancer

3) Unintentional injuries

4) Chronic lower respiratory diseases

5) Stroke

6) Diabetes

7) Suicide

8) Influenza and pneumonia

9) Alzheimer's disease

10) Chronic liver disease

http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/2013/index.htm

The National Organization for Women-New York State, Inc. is in favor of primary caregiver presumption. This means that the parent who assumed primary responsibility for the children during the marriage, either father or mother, should continue to be the custodial parent

And who was the default caregiver at that time in almost EVERY SINGLE MARRIAGE? WOMEN.

Fathers Rights groups continue to promote the myth that courts are biased in favor of mothers. In litigated cases, father who sue for custody almost always win. In fact, fathers are often awarded sole custody even when sexual and physical abuse of the children is alleged and substantiated.

I.E. In the teeny tiny percentage of cases where they know they can beat the mother in court they do so. Fathers should have parental rights by default, if abuse is proven then those rights can be revoked (same with the mother). Massive fathers movements asking for default custody? Oh they just want to hurt children! I wonder if that hurts mental health at all?

According to The American Judges Association, 70% of the time the abuser convinces the court to give him custody.

Where are the citations on this page? Where is this source? Why does this horse shit not need verification?

Workplace death is going to be much higher for men because a lot of people won't hire women in the jobs that can cause death, such as oil rigs or the military.

Which jobs are feminists pushing women to? The jobs that are disproportionately killing men or the jobs that are safe and comfy? Where are the feminists pushing for deep sea fisherwomen?

Undergrad enrollment looks fine to me. Does it need to be 50/50? Because a 56/44 split is pretty even I'd say.

Again, which group gets Affirmative Action? And no 56/44 is not equality, nor is 60/40, nor is 70/30, it's 50/50. Affirmative Action should be removed immediately and proper aid should be given to boys\men.

And let's look at your homeless statistic, because its not quite right either and is missing some context. Its hard to say just how much it would go down from fixing the mental health system

As to Men's Centers and Men's only help lines, I don't see those as relevant to this.

Yes let's not help males who are homeless, males who are DV victims, males who want other males to confide in! While we're at it, let's abolish all those same resources for women! I wonder, do you think suicide will rise as a result?

So let me clarify:

You don't think suicide attempts are counted multiple times (as people repeat) despite having no evidence that such is the case and the fact that such reporting would require a national database of personal information.
You don't think Male suicide is an issue because other people are trying but not succeeding (Crazy thought! Maybe, we can help these men too?) despite males being 80% of those who die, and it being the #7 leading cause of death.
You think there's no justification for someone using a non-lethal method as a cry for help, despite the fact that it takes literally a 30 second google to determine that this is ineffective.
You don't think workplace death is an issue. (I wonder how you feel about the pay gap? Maybe you also don't understand hazard pay)
You think 56/44 (and worsening) is acceptable and don't think women should lose affirmative action or that men should receive it (ignoring the fact that boys are failing in lower education as well: https://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/leaving-boys-behind-public-high-school-graduation-rates-5829.html)
You don't think 1/3 of homeless men matter because they are in a profession dominated by men saying "This is because of our extremely poor veteran's care programs and mental health system."

I understand. It's okay if men die cleaning our water, building our buildings, mining our oil, fishing in our oceans, fighting for our rights. It's fine if those men kill themselves or die in the streets with no shelter. Should we point any of this information out and attempt to say "Hey, look! Men aren't some privileged super class! We really do have issues and we really need help!" it's not okay. If only a handful of men who can afford the difficult legal battle of the family courts fight knowing they can win then it doesn't matter for the rest of them, right? Should those men come forward and say "I really want my children, I love them and I need them! Please help!" we should ignore them, call them rapists, pedophiles, wife beaters after all all men are the same right? How dare those men ask for equal parenting, right?

After all of your nonsense you have the audacity to spin around and say this:

Its hard to say just how much it would go down from fixing the mental health system

A mental health system that won't focus on those dying, won't offer to lend an ear to those most likely to kill themselves, won't support those who are most likely to die or get injured at work, won't support those who are falling out of the education system, won't give the same support structures (Men's centers, DV Shelters, etc.) that already exist for women is not going to help men at all.

Boys hear all the time about how awful men are, about how privileged men are, about how "oppressed" women are, how men have it easy and how men don't work for the money they earn. Everything is given to you when you have a penis right? Except empathy, you'll never get empathy.

[–]MsArya -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

It helps to read everything I say and to not only read the parts you disagree with you know.

You don't think suicide attempts are counted multiple times (as people repeat) despite having no evidence that such is the case and the fact that such reporting would require a national database of personal information.

I said they were right here : "As for how many times an unsuccessful attempt is recounted, each attempt is one attempt"

They intentionally choose a non-lethal method, despite knowing how unsuccessful it is.

Yes, but why do you think this is. The answer isn't, oh because they weren't really suicidal so they didn't want to die! I believe the leading theory that I heard was that women are worried about leaving a mess for someone to clean up afterwards while also wanting to preserve their beauty at the same time. The theory was saying that women have it so ingrained in them that they have to maintain beauty at all times and a bullet to the head would damage them. It sounded a little crazy and dumb to me, but I saw a lot of women nodding their heads in the audience while the speaker was talking about this.

You don't think Male suicide is an issue because other people are trying but not succeeding (Crazy thought! Maybe, we can help these men too?) despite males being 80% of those who die, and it being the #7 leading cause of death.

Where did I say it was non-issue? This chart was painting is an issue that affects men more than women because it has no context, and that's all I was pointing out.

You think there's no justification for someone using a non-lethal method as a cry for help, despite the fact that it takes literally a 30 second google to determine that this is ineffective

Why do you keep saying cry for help like its a bad thing by the way? As someone who attempted suicide, you should be able to understand that of course you want help. You don't want to die, you just don't see any other option for your situation.

You don't think workplace death is an issue. (I wonder how you feel about the pay gap? Maybe you also don't understand hazard pay)

I don't think its a gender/sex issue, no. Something can be an issue without it being against men or women.

You think 56/44 (and worsening) is acceptable and don't think women should lose affirmative action or that men should receive it

I don't recall ever even mentioning affirmative action, so I'm kind of curious how you got that from what I said, but ok. I don't think a 50/50 split is realistic, that's all. A 56/44 is about as close as it will get. If it was 56% men and 44% women I'd feel the same.

You don't think 1/3 of homeless men matter because they are in a profession dominated by men saying "This is because of our extremely poor veteran's care programs and mental health system."

Again, I didn't say they don't matter. I said that the reason that 1/3 are homeless is currently in the process of being fixed, so I wanted to look towards what the numbers could be in the future.

Should those men come forward and say "I really want my children, I love them and I need them! Please help!" we should ignore them, call them rapists, pedophiles, wife beaters after all all men are the same right? How dare those men ask for equal parenting, right?

You really need to calm down. Have a conversation like an adult. I haven't said any of this. In fact, I didn't give my opinion on it at all. I told you that article wasn't the best for supporting what you wanted to say since I saw you posting it around all over the place.

A mental health system that won't focus on those dying, won't offer to lend an ear to those most likely to kill themselves, won't support those who are most likely to die or get injured at work, won't support those who are falling out of the education system, won't give the same support structures (Men's centers, DV Shelters, etc.) that already exist for women is not going to help men at all.

Hi, I work in the mental health system. We do literally all of these things. We're just very poorly funded and still figuring out some things. Psychology is still a relatively new field and you can't expect us to have literally all the answers since it was founded in 1879. There's still a stigma that a lot of people need to get past as well. We want to help people, but not everyone sees it that way. And we can literally only help people if they themselves want help. As to why there aren't very many men's centers, there are less male victims and men are much less likely to actually step forward and ask for help with whatever issue they're having. The combination of these 2 factors leads a lot of regular people who aren't in the field to believe that these just aren't issues that affect men. People are starting to realize that isn't true luckily, so once we manage to get some more funding to fix our mental health systems you should definitely be expecting some of those to pop up more frequently.

Boys hear all the time about how awful men are, about how privileged men are, about how "oppressed" women are, how men have it easy and how men don't work for the money they earn. Everything is given to you when you have a penis right? Except empathy, you'll never get empathy.

Here's the thing. I used to be a guy. I never heard any of that. I never heard really anything about how bad guys are. I still haven't heard it now that I'm on the other side either. There's the occasional shitty comment from women sure, but its comparable to a guy saying "Bitches are crazy." It's awful sure, but its not that serious of a thing for them to say.

I think you might be spending too much time on the Internet looking for this kind of stuff if this is what you hear all the time honestly.

[–]TomwaIvory 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

And we can literally only help people if they themselves want help. As to why there aren't very many men's centers, there are less male victims and men are much less likely to actually step forward and ask for help with whatever issue they're having

Men are ASKING FOR HELP, they're asking for equal parenting, they're asking for DV shelters, they're asking for aid. Feminists come in and tell us men are "privileged" that is the ONLY point of the infographic, not to imply that women aren't suffering but to show that men aren't some kind of apex citizen living in peace and harmony.

I think you might be spending too much time on the Internet looking for this kind of stuff if this is what you hear all the time honestly.

How many of these issues do you think get discussed? Where is the council on Men and Boys? There most certainly is one for Women and Girls. We've asked for one: whitehouseboysmen.org/ repeatedly in fact.

These issues are ignored because they disproportionately affect males, and yes suicide attempts are bad BUT DYING IS WORSE. It is great that women are having their lives saved, now let's starting the lives of men. Suicide is the #7 leading cause of death in males.

Feminists attend meeting on Men's Issues and blow noisemakers in order to prevent discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4euzB0CAsCg

Feminists disrupt forum about battered husbands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qodygTkTUYM

Feminism bang and stomp while disrupting a female speaker talking about Men's rights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yg-f7fC0Uw

Feminists pull fire alarm to disrupt meeting about Men's Rights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO_X4DkwA_Q

Feminists attack participants at University of Toronto discussion on men's rights making pig noises and verbally attacking anyone who nears the area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0

Feminists violently attack peaceful protesters spraying them with pepper spray, spitting on them, and more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOCD_T9Qqpc

[Feminist writer for the guardian wants men put in camps]

"I mean, I would actually put them all in some kind of camp where they can all drive around in quad bikes, or bicycles, or white vans. I would give them a choice of vehicles to drive around with, give them no porn, they wouldn’t be able to fight – we would have wardens, of course! Women who want to see their sons or male loved ones would be able to go and visit, or take them out like a library book, and then bring them back." - Julie Bindel

UK official says men shouldn't be hired because they might be pedophiles.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/andrea-leadsom-men-paedophiles-childcare-workers-hired-sensible-a7139351.html

Don't forget the wage gap:

The fact of the matter is that Men/Women have different priorities and preferences.

For example Men to tend to work the nightshift more than women: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/flex.pdf

(See Table 4) Notice how Men work more Night Shift hours in every category, then look at Evening shifts and notice an even greater difference with men working more hours than women.

These night shifts pay more. Why? Because they wear down the workers greatly.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/06/rotating-shift-work-health_n_6417644.html http://theconversation.com/night-shifts-may-be-more-disruptive-to-women-than-men-brain-study-suggests-57999 http://time.com/3657434/night-work-early-death/

This lines up with some facts about men at work:

80% of suicides. http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide_factsheet-a.pdf
92% of workplace fatalities. http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0013.pdf
Men work more hours: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat22.htm

Is it not up to men/women how they work? After all women do live on average 7 years longer.

What about time out of the workforce? Do you believe men/women take more time out for children? Add to that dynamic things like motherhood and child support and you further widen the gap. If women have children to raise themselves do you not think they'll work less and if men are losing earnings due to child support do you not think they'll work more?

One of the most incredibly frustrating things about this gender earnings gap where women earn less is - the answer is generally helping men.

For example men demanded equal default shared parenting - a notion where both parents get equal custody and responsibility by default unless one is proven to be unfit - ending the warfare-esque family court system. Feminist organization NOW fought against this. (I know you don't mind this articles lack of statistics\facts\sources and it's MEN ARE RAPISTS, ABUSERS, etc. claims)

http://www.nownys.org/archives/leg_memos/oppose_a00330.html

Of course also is the issue of paternity which plays a role in child support. Fathers all over the western world have been seeking default paternity testing with great opposition from feminists.

Feminist wants to force men to raise children that do not belong to them: http://www.spectator.co.uk/2010/10/whos-the-daddy/

"DNA tests are an anti-feminist appliance of science, a change in the balance of power between the sexes that we’ve hardly come to terms with."

She argues that men should not be allowed to parent only their own children but rather be forced to parent according to the woman's wishes.

This happened again just recently in the UK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3V7tRpSRs

How can you expect equal work when men do not have equal parental rights? Do you expect men to take parental leave and spend time with a child that may or may not be theirs?

Keep in mind the INCREDIBLY small percentage we're dealing with here ~4-5% not only is this well within the margin of error for wage calculations like these but a small shift like these within the population can easily affect the overall representation of the wage gap.

It's just not cut and dry, and to say "SEXISM!" long before accounting for even basic differences in male and female behavior.

A good testament to this is China where 40% of the STEM workforce is female. This is due to economics - in china women have to work hard jobs in order to provide for their family. The more egalitarian the society the more pronounced the gender differences tend to become.

https://itif.org/publications/2016/03/03/women-represent-40-stem-workforce-china-only-24-us

Though if equal STEM representation is what you're looking for - perhaps we should take a page out of China's egalitarian book?

HA HA HA FUNNY COMMEDY!

http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2015/03/25/sarah-silverman-suggests-all-men-are-potential-rapists/

It's men are misogynists, rapists, murderers, abusers, pedophiles, stupid.

When men ask for help? It's complaining, it's not gendered (just because it affects you more) you can't complain! Then you say "We'd help more men if they'd speak up!"

[–]MsArya -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

[–]MsArya 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

You simultaneously complain about Men not coming forward and harass them when they do.

I haven't harassed any men actually, but thanks for the input. I actually talked about how things will likely be getting better for men over the next few years because of the awareness from groups like yours. All you did was rant about feminists in that last post. If you want to talk about men's rights, talk about the issues not your "opponents." Feminism is a broad group of people and they don't all agree with that.

When men say "We're not getting fair custody" you cite an an sourced claim saying abusers always win.

It said the fathers win when they actually attempt to get custody. That's just the kind of thing that awareness should be raised on so that fathers don't give up on getting custody. It said that fathers win DESPITE being abusers if they are one. Not that all fathers are abusers. It was just that fathers can win despite that.

You have no intention of helping men, despite the fact that you are one yourself.

Nice, now we get the transphobia because you disagree with me.

[–]TomwaIvory 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

I haven't harassed any men actually, but thanks for the input.

You came to dismantle the infographic (low quality as it may be) completely missing the point: Men aren't privileged, they need help same as anyone else.

I actually talked about how things will likely be getting better for men over the next few years because of the awareness from groups like yours.

"Thanks for raising awareness, let me explain how none of these things matter! Men dying, #7 cause of death? Well, women attempt more! So it's clearly not an important gendered issue for you! Yes, sure it's killing you but that's minor right?"

All you did was rant about feminists in that last post.

I.E. Those pushing this "Misogyny", "Male Privilege", "Men are paedophiles, rapists, etc." narrative.

It said the fathers win when they actually attempt to get custody.

In the tiny fraction of cases where they know they can win.

That's just the kind of thing that awareness should be raised on so that fathers don't give up on getting custody.

The system is stacked against them, we're advocating for law that would guarantee a fair playing field.

It said that fathers win DESPITE being abusers if they are one. Not that all fathers are abusers.

If it does not apply to all fathers (or a provable majority even) then it's irrelevant to the discussion. I won't bring baby drowning to a table about mothers when I know it's not the majority of mothers.

It was just that fathers can win despite that.

This claim was entirely uncited, seriously go back to the page and show me the source, the original study, the methods, the facts. Where are they?

Feminism is a broad group of people and they don't all agree with that.

Feminism is a cancer, their ideology is broken. Their leaders and movement have repeatedly fought against equal rights. Men are 92% of workplace deaths? Let's push women into cushy office jobs. Men are 80% of suicides? Well Women attempt more! Men are most homicide victims? Well men are to blame, because men do it more!

Men's centers, men's shelters, male specific programs to help those most affected? Not necessary, don't ask for such things, yes women have all of these but why SHOULD men have them?

Nice, now we get the transphobia because you disagree with me.

I have no fear of you, I'm merely pointing out the facts: You are a man. DNA does not lie.

I suppose we can't all claim we're something else though.

[–]MsArya1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MsArya1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MsArya0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh?

What about these cases?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXYY_syndrome

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/48,_XXXX

There are more as well.

Chromsomes aren't quite as cut and dry as you think.

As for this garbage

It most certainly is a mental illness, that's not up for question. The fact of the matter is you have two things: Body and Mind. If the body is healthy then it must be the mind that is broken. Do you have a normal healthy body? If such is the case then you have a mental disorder. Being Trans is no different than the man in the asylum who believes he's Elvis Presley or Peter Pan.

Its literally not considered that in the medical community. The mental illness that trans people have is gender dysphoria. The cure for gender dysphoria is to transition and then it goes away. The person is still trans, but its no longer causing them any serious discomfort from a mental illness. Why do you think you know better than the medical community? This is similar to people who think vaccines don't work because they don't trust the medical community.

[–]TomwaIvory1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome that result from two or more X chromosomes in males

Y chromosome => Male. One who suffers from a genetic disorder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome XYY syndrome is a genetic condition in which a human male has an extra male (Y) chromosome, Some medical geneticists question whether the term "syndrome" is appropriate for this condition[1] because its clinical phenotype is normal

Y chromosome => Fully functioning male, can't even tell the difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXYY_syndrome 48, XXYY syndrome is a sex chromosome anomaly in which males have an extra X and Y chromosome. Human cells usually contain two sex chromosomes, one from the mother and one from the father. Usually, females have two X chromosomes (XX) and males have one X and one Y chromosome (XY). The appearance of at least one Y chromosome with a properly functioning SRY gene makes a male.

Y chromosome => Male.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/48,_XXXX XXXX syndrome (also called tetrasomy X, quadruple X, or 48, XXXX) is a rare chromosomal disorder caused by the presence of four X chromosomes instead of two X chromosomes. This condition occurs only in females, as there are no Y chromosomes present.

No Y Chromosome => Female

Why do you ask silly questions when your links already contain the answers?

The cure for gender dysphoria is to transition and then it goes away. The person is still trans, but its no longer causing them any serious discomfort from a mental illness.

Yes this cures the symptom dysphoria, if you have a man who thinks everyone a spider you may not be able to fix his delusions but at the very least you can lessen his fear of spiders.

Why do you think you know better than the medical community? This is similar to people who think vaccines don't work because they don't trust the medical community.

Biology can't be trumped by psychology. Scientific fact always remains. If you were to commit a crime and leave only DNA evidence behind they could - guaranteed - know exactly what you always were regardless of how many "Transitions" you do.

[–]MsArya1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MsArya1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MsArya0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MsArya0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MsArya1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Because of how rare it is. It's one of two things either you're wrong (i.e. You were XX and were never a man) or you're lying (and you don't have XX chromosomes).

You are aware that being trans is just as rare as these genetic disorders right?

Gender is what you think you are, Sex is what you really are. Gender means nothing, gender won't let you reproduce, sex will. Gender doesn't carry on humanity, sex does. Gender can't be identified, Sex can. If your Sex doesn't match your Gender you've got a disorder.

That's odd, I didn't realize gender couldn't be identified. That's why Gender Identity is a thing I guess. Because we can't identify it. Also, who gives a shit about reproducing? If a woman has her ovaries removed due to cancer and can no longer have kids, she's still a woman (obviously not talking about trans people here before you say anything).

If your Sex doesn't match your Gender you've got a disorder.

You're wrong. Being trans is literally not considered a mental disorder. Just like how being a homosexual does not make you have a mental disorder. Being homosexual won't let you reproduce, heterosexuality will. Homosexuality won't carry on humanity, heterosexuality will. We can't look at someone's brain and know they're gay to identify it, does that mean its not a real thing?

[–]TomwaIvory1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MsArya1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Let's think of this way. You're a straight man, you like women. You tell everyone "I'm gay" what the FUCK other than your words would lead someone to conclude that?

And I can tell you don't trust the mental health community so you probably don't know this. In order to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, in this instance in order to get prescription medicine in order to transition, you have to meet certain criteria. There are typically 10 or so symptoms that are possible and you need a set number of them for a diagnosis.

But yeah, literally everything you say is exactly what people used to say about gay people. That's why this is so sad. You literally won't even look at how you perpetuate these ideas that cause people to limit the rights of LGBT members, and yet you then go ahead and talk about rights you want. Why do you think I'm in this subreddit? You think its because I see myself as a man? (No) Its because I want to see how people who are being denied rights are going about trying to get rights. And you're mainly what I've seen here now.

[–]TomwaIvory1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Let's think of this way. You're a straight man, you like women. You tell everyone "I'm gay" what the FUCK other than your words would lead someone to conclude that?

It's provable: I.E. You either DO or DO NOT fuck people of the same sex.

And I can tell you don't trust the mental health community so you probably don't know this. In order to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, in this instance in order to get prescription medicine in order to transition, you have to meet certain criteria. There are typically 10 or so symptoms that are possible and you need a set number of them for a diagnosis.

Yes, the process of classifying a mental disorder is challenging.

But yeah, literally everything you say is exactly what people used to say about gay people. That's why this is so sad. You literally won't even look at how you perpetuate these ideas that cause people to limit the rights of LGBT members, and yet you then go ahead and talk about rights you want.

I'm going to clarify very clearly the difference between gay people and trans people. Ahem.

Consider the following analogy.

Most people like tacos. Gay people simply have a different preference and prefer say Pizza. Trans people think they ARE PIZZA even when it can be conclusively shown they are not.

Consider this:

A gay man sleeps with other men considers other man attractive, and then proceeds to identify as a heterosexual. That's a disconnect from reality. Totally fine, to have your own preferences but when your beliefs don't align with provable reality it becomes confusing.

Why do you think I'm in this subreddit? You think its because I see myself as a man? (No) Its because I want to see how people who are being denied rights are going about trying to get rights. And you're mainly what I've seen here now.

Again, I've deprived you of zero rights. Live, work, fuck, play, eat, sleep, vote, own land, merry do whatever it is you want to do I have no desire to revoke any right from you. What right have you been deprived of? I've already asked this and yet you've failed to mention.

[–]MsArya1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What right have you been deprived of? I've already asked this and yet you've failed to mention.

Let's see. I can't donate blood. Can't join the military. Can't go to any public bathrooms. Been denied jobs. Been denied healthcare. Been denied housing once. Not personally, but seen some people beaten and sexually assaulted for being trans. Literally can never win a custody case since you love talking about that one so much. A 42% suicide attempt rate because of how shittily we're treated. That is 42% of all trans people will attempt suicide at some point. And you're not helping any of this.

The way you talk about all this is kind of like "You can do whatever you want, just don't do it around me!" or "What those gays do in the privacy of their own bedroom is not my business but they better not do it in the street!" Its super empty and comes off as insulting especially when you refuse to even recognize that being trans is a thing.

It's provable: I.E. You either DO or DO NOT fuck people of the same sex.

LOL, you really think that's all there is to sexuality? I know people who have sex with women and men, but they don't find men attractive. They just find sex with a man to be pleasurable and its easy to get. They say they're straight and I believe them. I don't see a problem with that.

Most people like tacos. Gay people simply have a different preference and prefer say Pizza. Trans people think they ARE PIZZA even when it can be conclusively shown they are not.

Its not a different "preference." That makes it sound like a choice, when they are clearly born that way. Just like how trans people are born that way.

[–]xaivteev1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I apologize for the bigotry that you've faced. But, I would ask that you overlook these bigots, in the same way that you've asked reasonable people to overlook the subset of feminists that attack and hate men. I would also like to draw your attention to your original post, as it's been upvoted fairly high despite being against the original post, and hope that this indicates to you that there are rational people here. Reading through this specific comment thread and seeing it devolve from discussion to yelling (furious typing?) was a bit saddening for me.

So, in an attempt to return to calm discussion, I have a question that I have not yet had the time to research, and was hoping you might shed some light on. I have a trans-man friend who is against the idea that gender is fluid (that you can identify as multiple genders and move between them), and is against the idea that there are more than two genders. This seemed strange to me, considering that he is trans, but he maintains that there are only two gender identities, and that he firmly identifies as male. What does the psychology field say about these?

[–]MsArya2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nothing at all. Its one of those things where its hugely controversial within the Trans community as well. Think about bisexuals in the LGBT community. They're constantly told that they're straight or gay and just looking to be special when its entirely possible that they could be bisexual.

When it comes to gender fluid stuff, we don't honestly know if its real. But we don't want to come out and tell people that their core identity is wrong because we've seen how that works out with the rest of the LGBT community. I'd imagine we'll know for certain if its real or not once we manage to actually track down what causes people to be transgender. For instance, if there was say an organ in the brain that was different in trans people from others. We could then check people who are gender fluid to see if they have a sort of in-between state. But until then, we just let them do what they want really. As long as its not harming themselves or someone around them, there's not really a serious problem with it. You still need a prescription which requires a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to transition as it is, so they're still essentially transgender if they can get through that step. Just think of it as a subset, like MtF or FtM.

But, I would ask that you overlook these bigots, in the same way that you've asked reasonable people to overlook the subset of feminists that attack and hate men

As to this. It's a little different to have a vocal minority attacking your group and having the vast majority of the world attacking your group. Its a lot harder to ignore when its literally everywhere in my day to day life. And I don't mean reading about it. I mean experiencing it in my day to day life.

[–]xaivteev1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nothing at all. Its one of those things where its hugely controversial within the Trans community as well. Think about bisexuals in the LGBT community. They're constantly told that they're straight or gay and just looking to be special when its entirely possible that they could be bisexual.

Sorry, just to clarify, this was in reference to whether or not there are more than two genders, right? I only ask because the analogy seems to fit the gender fluid point more, but you address that in the next paragraph.

As to this. It's a little different to have a vocal minority attacking your group and having the vast majority of the world attacking your group. Its a lot harder to ignore when its literally everywhere in my day to day life. And I don't mean reading about it. I mean experiencing it in my day to day life.

I apologize again. But, I feel the need to ask again. Reasonable people seem so hard to come by. From this thread, you seem to be one of them. To lose a voice like yours in places like this sub would be tragic.

[–]MsArya1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sorry, just to clarify, this was in reference to whether or not there are more than two genders, right? I only ask because the analogy seems to fit the gender fluid point more, but you address that in the next paragraph

Both really. The third gender that most older cultures talked about from what I saw were mostly just transgender people or eunuchs. Basically they knew they weren't what they were born as, but they didn't quite have the science we have today to actually fix things.

I apologize again. But, I feel the need to ask again. Reasonable people seem so hard to come by. From this thread, you seem to be one of them. To lose a voice like yours in places like this sub would be tragic.

Don't worry about stuff like that. I'm too stubborn and stupid to ever stop arguing with strangers on the Internet about this stuff. I've been doing this every 2 weeks for like a year now trying to convince someone about trans people and it's never worked. That won't stop me from doing it though!

Unless you mean the men's rights vs feminism thing. That's just the kind of stuff we talked about a surprising amount back in college so I have all these tidbits of knowledge that make me think that it doesn't look quite right and then fact checking it.

[–]xaivteev 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I agree that the graphic is pretty unrepresentative and cherry picks quite a bit. But your statistics about rape victims is actually a Men's rights issue. Rape typically doesn't include being made to penetrate (someone forcing someone else to insert their penis into someone or something) under the law (Assuming US or UK, don't know much about other places). With that included, the rape stat turns into a 60-40 split (women are the 60).

The 1/6 women having been victims of rape doesn't tell us much, as someone who is raped once and never again is added on to the massive accumulation. Also, I'm not sure what source you're using, but most I've seen reporting that number or a number close to it (1/5, or 1/4) include other forms of sexual assault (which is still bad, but not considered rape) and are of a non-representative sample size. But, back to my main point, it's much more informative to point out that the rape rate per year has declined and is projected to decline still.

Still, I'm glad you bothered to talk instead of making some cheeky remark. It's only through educated discussion that actual progress will be made.

[–]MsArya 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]xaivteev 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"The overall weighted response rate for the 2010 NISVS ranged from 27.5% to 33.6%" See page 6: http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_sofindings.pdf

[1] Attempted Rape is incredibly low for students and non-students in the most vulnerable age group.

"For the period 1995–2013, females ages 18 to 24 not enrolled in a post-secondary school were 1.2 times more likely to experience rape and sexual assault victimization (7.6 per 1,000), compared to students in the same age range (6.1 per 1,000) (table 1)"http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

[1a] The rate of Completed Rapes is even lower: "The rate of completed rape for nonstudents (3.1 per 1,000) was 1.5 times higher than for students (2.0 per 1,000). " http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

[1b] Rape has been decreasing rapidly and of statistics in 2014 rates were as low as 1.1 per 1000 for the general population. (See Table 1) http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv14.pdf

[–]killcat 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]MsArya 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]killcat 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]soalone34 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Look at suicide rates in other countries where guns are banned. Men STILL do it more. For whatever reason women are more likely to make half hearted attempts, and men more likely to really mean it when they do it.

As for military deaths, what the hell? So it's totally okay that msn are way more likely to sacrifice themselves? Also men still have to sign up for selective service while women don't.

Industrial deaths, you're right. For lower class people when the job opprutunities are bad usually the man is expected to take the dangerous jobs in industry and the woman becomes a stay at home wife. Luckily, in higher classes the woman branches out and starts working in safer better paying places. Weird how all the affirmative action is about putting women in safe secure jobs and leaving dangerous ones almost entirely populated by men.

[–]MsArya 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MsArya -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This post is a month old.

For whatever reason women are more likely to make half hearted attempts, and men more likely to really mean it when they do it.

Women aren't making "half hearted attempts." Men and women choose different methods of suicide. Women tend to think more about what people will find afterwords and about preserving beauty even after death because society has ingrained that beauty is the most important over and over.

As for military deaths, what the hell? So it's totally okay that msn are way more likely to sacrifice themselves?

Its not that men are way more likely to sacrifice themselves, its that we literally won't let women into those positions. So how is that a fair comparison?

Also men still have to sign up for selective service while women don't.

A draft isn't' likely to ever happen again. Secondly, you don't HAVE to sign up for the selective service.

For lower class people when the job opprutunities are bad usually the man is expected to take the dangerous jobs in industry and the woman becomes a stay at home wife.

That is literally not how lower class families work. In lower class families, both parents work jobs. Sometimes they work multiple jobs. What do you think lower class single parent moms do? You're literally running with the assumption that these people are poor because they're lazy and won't work jobs and that's just been proven wrong over and over again.

Weird how all the affirmative action is about putting women in safe secure jobs and leaving dangerous ones almost entirely populated by men.

Its not? Women want to join the military. Women want to work in factories. Women want tech jobs. But literally everyone steers women away from those jobs.

[–]unbelievablepeople 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MsArya -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]littlecolt 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]unbelievablepeople -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]MsArya -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]dork_souls 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]MsArya 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]dork_souls 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]xkcd_transcriber 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]unbelievablepeople -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MsArya -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SleepDeprivedPegasus3 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Incruentus 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]WodensEye 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mitzibishi 14 points15 points16 points 10 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]NegativeChirality 28 points29 points30 points 10 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–]badwig 17 points18 points19 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]NegativeChirality 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]badwig 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]badwig 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]NegativeChirality -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]badwig 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ali3nation 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Throwawayingaccount 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ztsmart 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]-Oizys 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ztsmart 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Raquefel 10 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm bi, but I'm seriously doubting that I'll ever date a woman again because of this. It's ironically MUCH easier to get by without being harassed in college when people think you're gay than when people think you're straight, and like you said, straight dating is horribly unequal. It's kinda depressing.

[–]Zwischenzugzwang 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Raquefel1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]chinawinsworlds -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]morerokk 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]chinawinsworlds -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]morerokk 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]chinawinsworlds -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]morerokk 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

It is. Obviously it's a different sort of problem. But filtering takes effort. Slogging through hundreds of conversations is time consuming and frustrating. Turning people down feels shitty. Ignoring someone clamoring for attention is irritating. Etc. Dealing with hundreds of people who are all wrong can be demoralizing.

I used to run a sex blog with my ex - the amount of women frustrated and unhappy with online dating is huge. Not finding anyone really sucks, but not finding anyone right also sucks. By and large, I have put in far less effort into online dating than women I met online.

A craigslist meet (for some casual play, not even anything serious) told me she read through over six hundred messages before answering mine. It took me five minutes to write. Who put in more effort?

Here is a letter we got (one of hundreds like it), and my ex's reply.

http://i.imgur.com/enYurqE.png

It's a problem of plenty, but it is a problem. In all honestly, I'd fucking hate it if legions of unattractive women were clamoring for my attention and beating down my door everywhere I went in real life, and on every dating site. I much prefer my current situation.

[–]McFeely_Smackup 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]10107770101 10 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I used to love this subreddit until it became a bait for easy karma and half-assed content, like this one. Or when someone posts a Facebook comment of a random person saying women are superior. Where are the articles, the promotion of activities for men and so on?

[–]mrroboot 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]karmacrazywarboi 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Pointless_arguments 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]un_salamandre 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]killer3james 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SenorTrumper 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]derp126171 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MRA-automatron-2kb -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MRA-automatron-2kb 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]pjmcm 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]pjmcm -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jayebyrd1515 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Jaeryth 10 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Avoidable things like combat deaths and industrial deaths don't really have a place in comparing male to female 'privilege.' To be fair, men are physically better at the jobs that lead to these high death tolls, and we don't have anything forcing men to do these jobs. It also comes off as asking for men and women to be murdered at similar rates which is just.. off-putting.

A much better example would be homeless shelters for men/women vs. homeless men/women, or money spent compared to money earned. Or funding of men's cancers vs women's cancers as well as death rates of men's cancers vs women's cancers. Or likelihood to be convicted compared to women as well as sentence served compared to women for the same crime.

[–]oshmkufa2010 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]Jaeryth 10 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Holy shit your comment is excessively bitchy. Besides that, did you completely miss the point of what I was saying? Because you went on a complete tangent. At no point whatsoever did you come close to having a tangible argument that was even remotely related to what I was trying to get across.

First off, we're talking about female vs. male privilege, I suggested better ways to demonstrate it rather than statistics over avoidable deaths. You don't have to join the military, and you don't have to work in an industry that might kill you. There are plenty of jobs where the chance of dying is relatively a lot lower - women are just less likely to work in the ones that involve a risk of death due to being physically weaker. I'm going to repeat this a couple more times in different ways because I get the feeling you're not smart enough to comprehend with one explanation.

How is that ANY bit related to the concept of people getting shot by police? Men don't die in combat or in an industry because we are discriminated against, men die in these roles because they sign up for jobs that we know has a risk of death or injury. Women don't sign up for these jobs or don't get hired, possibly, because they are physically weaker and are just statistically less likely to apply for industry jobs. Whereas people getting shot by police can happen at any moment. How hard is it to put 2 and 2 together with what I was saying?

I was suggesting better statistics to represent on an infographic about male vs. female privilege:

A much better example would be homeless shelters for men/women vs. homeless men/women, or money spent compared to money earned. Or funding of men's cancers vs women's cancers as well as death rates of men's cancers vs women's cancers. Or likelihood to be convicted compared to women as well as sentence served compared to women for the same crime.

Women don't die in combat and industry because here in the western world we don't have to choose a job we don't want to. It's called freedom, buddy. And don't you dare be retarded enough to mention a draft because it's been 50 years since the last one. Whining about us dying in jobs we choose to do is completely stupid and makes our movement look stupid because it isn't really discrimination like those other things I suggested. It's almost as self-defeating as the people who whine about wanting their foreskins back or feminists lying about the wage gap.

Yet there we are talking about police brutality towards black people and racism on an epic scale.

Who's 'we?' Because last I checked, I never mentioned it. Do you automatically assume I'm a BLM fuck-nut?

I'm DYING to know.

I'm dying to have another bitchy, attitude-infested comment from you, because holy shit this was the most infantile and irrelevant thing I've read today. If you can't realize your statement was completely off-topic with what I was saying, it's your own fault. I'm ignoring you buddy, go try to apply SJW tactics somewhere else, alright? Read a book or something. I've never met someone with such a lack of reading comprehension they couldn't understand two tiny paragraphs.

[–]oshmkufa2010 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Wow, look who's talking. At least I'm not the one who can't respond in a semi-civilised way and starts insulting the other person right from the get go. You were talking about how it is “off-putting” to ask for men and women to be murdered at similar rates, which is implying that for some reason men apparently deserve to be murdered in higher rates than women, which is a rather sexist thing to say. I drew the comparison by turning the gender issue into a race issue, because it would be pretty universally considered racist to imply that it's no issue if black people are murdered in higher rates than whites.

I've never met someone with such a lack of reading comprehension they couldn't understand two tiny paragraphs.

Says the person writing a whole rant about things that are completely off topic by pulling the military, draft and industry deaths right out of their ass. That's not the part I was responding to, jackass. How about you practise what you preach and learn some reading comprehension instead of insulting people?

Oh, and you're ignoring me? Aww, you hurt my feelings. I'll probably have to cry myself to sleep tonight. /s

Claiming I'm the infantile one and going ahead by announcing that you're ignoring me without giving me a single chance to respond. How mature of you. Pathetic.

[+]Jaeryth 10 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

which is implying that for some reason men apparently deserve to be murdered in higher rates than women,

You're a complete tool if you think anything I said remotely inferred that. If that's what you thought I said, why didn't you say your were a triggered little dumbass from the get-go?

First off, industry deaths and combat deaths aren't murder. They're accidents and war, and they're due to professions that are likely to lead to these two things. Second off, I was saying that it doesn't count as female vs. male privilege because it is a fucking choice to enlist in the military or to join the industry. Do you still not understand this shit? I explained it like 5 fucking times to you already.

Keep being a pseudo-intellectual there, kiddo.

At least I'm not the one who can't respond in a semi-civilised way and starts insulting the other person right from the get go

That's exactly what you did. You completely did a 180 with your interpretation of what I posted and projected things about my argument because you're an offended little fairy. Your entire post was riddled with stupidity and snark.

I drew the comparison by turning the gender issue into a race issue, because it would be pretty universally considered racist to imply that it's no issue if black people are murdered in higher rates than whites.

You still don't get it. People don't choose to get shot by cops. But people can choose their profession. Your infantile debate skills fall flat on their fucked-up face.

That's not the part I was responding to, jackass. How about you practise what you preach and learn some reading comprehension instead of insulting people?

Hey jackass, you don't cherry-pick one part of someone's argument to change the meaning of their message. Quit using bullshit SJW tactics. Thanks. It's still your comprehension that sucks if you can't take a string of sentences that compliment one another and combine them into one message.

Says the person writing a whole rant about things that are completely off topic by pulling the military, draft and industry deaths right out of their ass.

It's not off-topic, I was explaining to you the core concept of my message. If you want to misinterpret one single sentence in an entire post I made just to start this bullshit here, go rightfully fuck yourself.

I've explained what I meant several times over, it's your retarded-ass who can't understand jack shit.

[–]oshmkufa2010 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

First off, industry deaths and combat deaths aren't murder.

Thanks Captain Obvious. That's exactly why I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the homicide statistics, which your excellent reading comprehension skills seem to have missed. So again, stop pulling stuff out of your ass.

That's exactly what you did.

Oh, really? Quote anything from my first response that goes beyond being somewhat provocative and is a direct insult. I dare you.

People don't choose to get shot by cops.

But people choose to be the victims of other cases of homicide that are committed by civilians? Yeah, totally. I'm talking about homicide, not combat deaths.

Hey jackass, you don't cherry-pick one part of someone's argument to change the meaning of their message.

Wtf are you even talking about? I was merely asking of you to explain one point: why it's okay to imply that there's no issue when men are murdered in higher rates than women, but it would be considered racist to imply that there's no problem if blacks are killed in higher rates than whites. It's not my fault if you go full rampage and start throwing in all kinds of stuff that I wasn't talking about.

[–]Jaeryth1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thanks Captain Obvious. That's exactly why I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the homicide statistics,

I never mentioned the homicide statistics in the post, so why are you arguing with me? Why are you derailing the topic and blatantly changing the content of my post to suit your narrative here? Here was my post you so eloquently responded to:

Avoidable things like combat deaths and industrial deaths don't really have a place in comparing male to female 'privilege.' To be fair, men are physically better at the jobs that lead to these high death tolls, and we don't have anything forcing men to do these jobs. It also comes off as asking for men and women to be murdered at similar rates which is just.. off-putting.

Continuing:

Oh, really? Quote anything from my first response that goes beyond being somewhat provocative and is a direct insult. I dare you.

Your entire post was assuming I was bigoted against men and assumed I was justifying why men are victims of homicide so frequently. When in fact my entire post never even mentioned homicide statistics. None of my posts here mentioned homicide and YOU YOURSELF NEVER MENTIONED HOMICIDE UNTIL NOW. Quit changing the fucking argument. Quit fucking derailing. Quit fucking misinterpreting something that is easy to interpret just to argue with me.

why it's okay to imply that there's no issue when men are murdered in higher rates than women

I NEVER EVEN TALKED ABOUT THIS YOU FUCKING IDIOT.

It's not my fault if you go full rampage and start throwing in all kinds of stuff that I wasn't talking about.

When you attack me and my posts, I have to assume you're talking about the views I outlined in my posts. Instead you're assuming something completely different from what I said and it took you until now to reveal that you were COMPLETELY off tangent and assuming.

but it would be considered racist to imply that there's no problem if blacks are killed in higher rates than whites.

YES IT WOULD BE RACIST, JUST LIKE IT WOULD BE SEXIST IF YOU SAID THERE'S NO PROBLEM WITH MEN BEING KILLED AT HIGHER RATES. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT YOU FUCKING RETARD? THE PROBLEM IS I NEVER SAID THAT SHIT.

I was explaining why combat deaths and industrial deaths are not a good measure of male and female privilege, because it is a choice to join those jobs and men are physically better at them. I was explaining better statistics to put in their place. How many times must I post this?

I was merely asking of you to explain one point:

The misunderstanding came about because of you. And only you. You change the topic, you changed the meaning of my post, you misinterpreted everything about it. Because you did that, I responded in a way that didn't satisfy you because I was assuming you were talking about something that was actually related to what I posted. I was wrong, your post was completely off-topic and wasn't related in anyway to what I said. I'm sorry I don't have the same idiotic SJW mindset that spawned your beliefs.

If you want me to take you seriously, how about you stay on topic?

[–]ChicagoRunner 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]YmirisHappy -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ohbeejuan -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Ohbeejuan -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ohbeejuan -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mac4491 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]killcat 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Grasshopper21 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]anonymous_212 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]i_pray_4live0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]earlywarningsigns -4 points-3 points-2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]dmikalova-3 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+]Surtysurt -8 points-7 points-6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]SweelFor -11 points-10 points-9 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]ArchVileRespawned 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mac4491 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomwaIvory 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ArchVileRespawned0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The only one that shows a situation where men are possibly treated unfairly is the custody battle one.

I never said men are treated unfairly in these situations. I said they weren't privileged.

More men in combat roles will obviously result in more male deaths. More men in industrial workplaces will obviously increase the number of males being injured/killed in a workplace accident.

Men might expect higher pay to do these jobs given the danger...

Even still, there doesn't seem to be much of a concern about the mostly male lives lost. Yes, there is a movement to get women into combat roles, but it is motivated by female empowerment, not saving male lives. Meanwhile, there is plenty of noise about not enough women having cozy white collar STEM jobs.

Where's the correlation between men killing themselves and that being an example of an argument against the existence of Male privilege?

The whole point of privilege is that the allegedly privileged group benefits unfairly at the expense of others. If men are so well served by society relative to women, why the suicide rate disparity?

Same for why more men are victims of homicide.

Basically the same arguments from above apply. If men are so privileged, why isn't male safety a big issue?

[–]TomwaIvory 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So are you asking that more women get killed ?

Maybe the point is that, men do a lot dangerous work? Maybe the question is "Why are women's groups advocating women to work in cushy office jobs and not in sewers"?

Men suicide more ? That's true. But are you accusing women of that ?

Maybe, just maybe we can have a White House council on Men and Boys? You know, like the one we have repeatedly asked for?

http://whitehouseboysmen.org/

http://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2014/02/03/exposed-obama-blocks-white-house-council-on-boys-and-men-n1788584

http://www.warrenfarrell.name/

https://www.aei.org/publication/statement-from-the-white-house-council-on-men-and-boys/

If not what's the point ? I don't understand

The point isn't to HURT women, it's to HELP men.

Here's a better infographic (I made it): https://imgur.com/WWozf7O

Homelessness, Suicide, Undergrad enrollment (Which women receive affirmative action for) all disproportionately favor women.

It's time to say:

"Okay, women aren't dying from suicide like men are, let's give Men some specific attention and help them out!"
NO MORE discriminating against men, let men into higher education just as women are. ~60/40 is not equal. Help men reach 50% and help keep it there.
Time for some major homelessness fixes, particularly those affecting men. Time to give places for men abused by their wives and to ensure that men who return from combat are getting treated right.

[–]I_Like_Stats_Facts -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Nulono -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]1-picAlbumsareCancer -5 points-4 points-3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]FiftyshadesoBullshit -7 points-6 points-5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Sgshallow -11 points-10 points-9 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Male Privilege
Author	KnyfeGaming
Upvotes	1782
Comments	197
Date	July 17, 2016 5:45 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4tao3b/male_privilege/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/male-privilege.945380 https://theredarchive.com/post/945380

Comments