Why do feminists do this?

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2013-06-21T14:06:07+00:00

Do you believe people should be nice to each other?

Ha, you're a Scientologist!

radamanthine · 2013-06-21T13:54:16+00:00

Feminists are trained to understand the immense power in framing.

By labeling things they disagree with or don't like as misogynistic, woman-hating, rape-supporting, hate-groups, sexist, violent, scary, etc. they understand that they can destroy its credibility and never have to worry about addressing actual criticism. This is otherwise known as an "ad hominem" or "poisoning the well." Because feminist theory cannot stand up to criticism, feminists have become well versed and adept at engaging in this type of framing.

They also label things that they do agree with as equality, anti-violence, best interests of the child, freedom, safety, etc even when these things are the exact opposite. By framing things they like as universally good, they can get people to agree with them even when what they are selling is oppressive and discriminatory. This is akin to calling the wire-tapping bill "The Patriot Act."

They also understand that if they can get you to agree to call yourself a feminist, they own you. Once you've agreed to call yourself a feminist you are no longer an individual, you are part of their cult. You will be expected to agree with the most fundamentalist radical man-hating feminist theory or else you will be attacked viciously.

And what feminists hate the most is having their frame challenged, because this takes away their power over other people's perceptions. So when you told her, "No. I am not a feminist and stop calling me one," she became irate because she wanted control over you and you refused to give it to her.

Good for you.

DarthOvious · 2013-06-21T13:56:42+00:00

You've learned rule number 1. Feminism is all about control. Controlling structures, controlling dialogue and controlling labels.

Icyx · 2013-06-21T12:53:38+00:00

Feminists do that because they are echoing feminist PR campaigns which encourage them to do that.

The propaganda slogan "Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings" originated in The Feminist Dictionary, published in 1985. They did not hide their agenda-- to embed their biases into the very meanings of words:

"This is a dictionary with a difference. It places women at the center of language and uses definition and quotation to take us on a fascinating journey through the development and use of the English language from diverse feminist perspectives. A FEMINIST DICTIONARY illustrates women's linguistic contributions: the ways in which women have sought to describe, reflect upon and theorize about women, language, and the rest of the world. This is a unique source book that will serve as a valuable work of reference for many years to come."

Likewise, every time there's a poll which says a small percentage of people call themselves feminist, but a larger percentage support specific beliefs or policies which feminists claim as theirs, consider:

Who commissioned the poll? Who chose which popular feminist ideas to include in the follow-up questions (and which unpopular ideas to exclude)? Who interpreted the data in a study? Who disseminated it in a press release? Who selected that as a news item? You will find that these ideas are not spread spontaneously, word of mouth, in a grassroots fashion, on their merits alone; but are the product of coordinated lobbying campaigns. If you like food, then McDonalds!

More egregious than telling OP (who doesn't identify with a label) that they are a feminist/ is telling someone who Actively Identifies With A Different Label, that they are a feminist:

Any time a feminist tells you "...then you're a feminist", immediately ask them if they know about Womanism. Womanism was founded by black women who share some feminist goals, but have not been respected or represented by Feminism.

If you're talking to a Feminist who doesn't know about Womanism, then they are unwittingly participating in the more-privileged women's campaign to claim a monopoly on equality and women's issues; erasing less-privileged women from the discussion.

If the feminist you're talking to does know about Womanism, then they are actively participating in the exact racist process which the Womanists complained about: presenting the upper-class white woman's experience-- Feminism-- as if those are the only women who matter; treating black women's perspective as inferior.

Say so, and let us know how the feminist reacts.

McFeely_Smackup · 2013-06-21T15:25:43+00:00

You should have asked her "do you believe everyone should be treated equally under the law"? If she says yes, she's a Mens Rights Advocate!!

HappyGerbil88 · 2013-06-21T17:01:11+00:00

MRA's aren't big on labels. We just want equal rights.

Vandredd · 2013-06-21T15:40:17+00:00

Most MRAs would fit the definition feminists would like feminism to have. The problem is that definition is not reflective of reality.

ZimbaZumba · 2013-06-21T12:19:13+00:00

What Feminism technically stands for and what a Feminist is, do not always correspond. As is the same for any political group. Stalinism was "Power for the People.." for instance.

A group not only has a set of goals, but also a way of achieving them, eg smashing the Patriarchy. You can concur with the goals but not the means. Believing in equality of the sexes etc does no automatically make you a Feminist. These core values are also part of Humanism, Egalitarianism and Libertarianism.

The way our language works is that people who are a Feminist, Liberal, or Conservative etc, is that that the words infer far more than just a belief in the core principles of the philosophy. Unless carefully qualified, each word comes with a whole set of other inferences concerning your beliefs on other issues.

In short, there is Feminism the belief system and Feminism the politically active entity. Being a Feminist thus can mean two different things.

avantvernacular · 2013-06-21T13:24:40+00:00

We respect your right to identify as you see fit here. Your freedoms, indeed all our freedoms are important to us. If feminists don't think the same, you should ask them why.

tactsweater · 2013-06-21T17:23:30+00:00

It's pretty simple cognitive dissonance. When they're trying to co-opt you, the definition they use is something like "you agree women should have equal rights to men". They just assume that this means you agree with all of their theories because it just follows that "equal rights for women" means that women have always and everywhere been oppressed, and gender is a social construct.

literallyschmiteraly · 2013-06-21T14:07:58+00:00

Eeeeyup. They're fools though. I started out saying I was not a feminist. It was when I got told I really am and I must be (especially since I'm a woman) that I started to feel contrary. They are always shooting themselves in the foot, I think.

CMOS222 · 2013-06-21T17:37:44+00:00

I've said this elsewhere, and at the risk of repeating myself, the problem here is analogous to medieval Catholics and Catholic clergy being psychologically unable to fit Protestantism into their worldview. Nowadays, it's taken for granted that a person can be a good Christian (if they so choose) without being a member of the Catholic church. In medieval times this was anathema to the Catholic church.

In a similar manner, this person you're dealing with simply hasn't got the mental equipment to understand how someone can believe in equality and at the same time, not subscribe to feminism. What she's doing is the equivalent of the Catholic hierarchy telling Luther and other Protestant reformers the only way one can be a Christian is to be Catholic.

Try laying this metaphor on her, see if she finally gets it. One can only hope.

Neurotikitty · 2013-06-21T14:28:56+00:00

I had a feminist PM me once and tell me that I was a feminist (for advocating egalitarianism). I agreed by the definition she was trying to use (standing for equality) that I fit the bill. However, this mainly happens because feminists want desperately to cement themselves as the only advocates of equality. Whereas, I believe that labels only work when people actually identify with them. I can agree with libertarians on many issues but not call myself a libertarian because I don't agree with many elements of their movement. Feminists don't seem like they are able to accept this kind of moderate overlap in goals, though. They have to put their label on you.

DavidByron · 2013-06-21T16:35:44+00:00

It's a cult-like behaviour. Reminds me of a conversation a friend had with a Moonie

Moonie: So we agree

Friend: No we don't.

Moonie: yeah but basically we agree

Friend: No, we really don't agree

Moonie: yeah but....

AtheistConservative · 2013-06-21T17:45:58+00:00

Because feminism consists of 3 branches. You have the important, militant leaders (who we are always told aren't really feminists). They are the ones who actually get laws and policies changed. Then there are there are the ground troops who try to push feminism at a personal, social level. Many of the posts in this sub are about such feminists. Finally, there's the group they tried to draft you in to, the shields. Because you agree with some vague platitudes and maybe are pro-choice, they claim you should consider yourself a feminist. The shields are arguably the most important group, because any attack on the excesses of feminism can be rebuffed by throwing the reasonable, non active shields in the way. Feminists attack and smear transwomen? Simply respond by saying Greg and July are feminists, and they aren't like that.

Nipplestoker · 2013-06-21T15:04:29+00:00

If you're not a Feminists you're literally a rapist, shitlord!

lazlounderhill · 2013-06-21T15:33:37+00:00

Very "cult" like behavior.

UnbiddenKarma · 2013-06-21T17:20:53+00:00

Since feminism is such a broad area of thought including MANY different perspectives, when distilled down to it's commonality it usually amounts to some weak platitudes such as "equal rights" "equity rights" or "women are people too". Trouble being with how complex people and culture is it doesn't go very far in telling us how we ought act for a given situation. Most people beyond adolescence will realize the difficulty in trying to find what is an equitable/equal set of social standards/expectations to live by and that you would prefer to not give blanket approbation to anyone under the banner of feminism especially while some of them do things that you are flat out against.

At least that's my personal position.

If after describing this to her she still doesn't understand why you hate women simply ask her if she believes in "hard work and integrity?" If she answers in the affirmative, inquire how her friends and family took it when they found out she was a Republican. (this is especially effective in the states as most feminists are left leaning and left leaning people dislike the stereotype that those who utilize social programs are simply lazy and unwilling to do for themselves.

AloysiusC · 2013-06-21T17:33:46+00:00

There is an important difference between the two labels feminism and MRA. Feminism is a descriptive title, a name which ties everyone wearing it to the actions and history of a political ideology.

MRA on the other hand, is a description rather than a name. If you advocate for men's rights, you are, by definition, and MRA. Just like, if you play football for a living, you're a footballer.

Further indication that MRA is not a name is that nobody really knows what the acronym exactly stands for - if it's activist or advocate.

This has very important implications:

1) It means you literally cannot advocate for men's rights without being an MRA.

2) If you have a problem with MRAs in general, then that means you have a problem with standing up for men's rights.

Anonaux · 2013-06-21T17:52:05+00:00

Step 1: Force everyone to be a feminist

Step 2: If feminists do something criticizable, claim they weren't true feminists.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2013-06-21T22:42:41+00:00

Yet my right to free association isn't respected by her and she becomes irate that I don't want to wear her badge.

This is it in a nutshell. Identity politics is often about trying to control language to one's own ends.

giegerwasright · 2013-06-21T12:32:40+00:00

Co-option. Feminists would co-opt the motherfucking black plague if they could figure out how. I'd be willing to bet that there actually is a treatise on that very topic out there somewhere, written by some desperate classics student with nothing interesting to say.

Newspeak. Feminists are kind of like Kim Jong Un. He hands out Mein Kampf to his cabinet for studying, and then when caught insists that it never happened and has the journalist who broke it killed. But it still happened. Feminists love them some newspeak and doublethink.

Herd. The more people they co-opt for the herd, the stronger the herd becomes. The stronger the herd becomes, the more power it has to socially and emotionally blackmail people into donating to their causes so that they don't have to get real jobs.

seego79 · 2013-06-21T13:59:18+00:00

i find it funny that you get feminists who declare you a feminist because your statements are what a feminist is, but at the same time(and sometimes from the same person) you get the not all feminist are like that.

if feminism has defined parameters then the people who cry NAFALT are obviously not feminists.

6inchpianist · 2013-06-21T17:29:08+00:00

By getting upset by titles, you're letting titles control you more than you realize.

dungone · 2013-06-21T17:58:45+00:00

Do you believe murder is wrong? So then you're a Christian! /s

Dyed in the wool feminists take their theories on such great faith and they are so rigid in their thinking that they simply can't imagine reality being any other way. So you end up with the notion that if you believe in equality then you must be a feminist, which in turn means that you believe that men oppress women under an unfalsifiable Patriarchal system.

TorontoMike · 2013-06-21T18:13:42+00:00

One answer - Feminism is a cult / religion that the feminists believe that everything good flows from them.

Another answer , an attempt to co-op any political group / idea to serve their purpose such as the race segregationists in the 60's co-oped anti communists and tried to paint their racism as true blue American values - because Race Mixing is Communism

jianadaren1 · 2013-06-21T19:03:21+00:00

A feminist is both a label and descriptor. She's saying that your views are feminist and so feminism accurately describes your view. Nevertheless, you are rejecting the label (probably because it has its own baggage and is inconsistently interpreted).

All groups that have an urge to proselytize do this - atheists say "oh you're having doubts about the existence of God? You must not believe in God, therefore you're an atheist." They determine that you fit the descriptor and insist that your wear the label.

It gets really mind-bending when people go the other way - they don't remotely meet the descriptor but wear the label anyway "I'm totally a vegetarian, but I eat pork, beef, poulty, fish, and dairy."

It's not a uniquely feminist thing, but a quality of a member of any group who thinks recruitment is a duty.

Blemish · 2013-06-22T01:33:56+00:00

The term is "unwitting feminist"

Thats the term they give people who believe in gender equality, but dont "understand feminism"

2013-06-22T06:24:22+00:00

I don't believe in abortion. so you're a Republican?

rightsbot · 2013-06-21T11:56:16+00:00

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Pecanpig · 2013-06-21T13:50:09+00:00

Because they need to absorb other groups or the movement dies.

If they only counted self identifying feminists then the movement would shrink by a factor of 10 and the remaining members would look worse than the Nazi SS.

MyGogglesDoNothing · 2013-06-21T16:24:43+00:00

I think people have to stop overthinking feminism. Feminism is a secular religion. It's an ideology in the vein of Marxism and communism and socialism, and has nothing to do with reality. It's a secular branch of Christianity. The genius of these ideologies is that they coopt social topics that are genuine issues, but they are not an honest look at them. They merely use them to cement the power structures that are in place.

phukka · 2013-06-21T14:18:55+00:00

Because if they didn't co-opt people like you to their "cause," all that would be left of feminism would be the man-haters that want to castrate men.

You're being co-opted purely so they can use the NAFALT defense.

Personage1 · 2013-06-21T15:20:55+00:00

I had a friend who said she was pro-life. When I asked her about it she said she could never get an abortion but would never limit someone else's choice to do so. I think that makes her pro-choice and feel no problem saying so.

In your situation, it appears to be the same. The question I would wonder is why you didn't identify as a feminist. If you say "I believe in x, y, z but I am not a feminist" and I think to myself "but x, y, and z are what feminists believe in" I would at least be curious why you felt the need to distance yourself.

At the end of the day, though, some people like to have easy labels. It sounds like the feminists you know are uncomfortable with not labeling things.

spidermansion · 2013-06-21T15:51:59+00:00

WHO? WHO DOES NOT WANT TO WEAR THE RIBBON?

dval92 · 2013-06-21T18:52:10+00:00

It's a rhetorical tool (ideological) feminists use to make their population seem larger than it actually is. People who are unaware of the ideological core of the feminist movement will be easily swayed by this reasoning thinking that feminism is just an umbrella term for any "gender equality" movement, and thus adopt the term given this understanding.

In reality, feminism stands for much more than just "equality." Equality the goal to which it pays lipservice, but feminism and its various strains also has its own approaches to allegedly achieve equality, whether or not it comes through the eradication of the rape culture/Patriarchy or the leveling of the male population to a near 10% (as some radfems have condoned). By doing this, feminists construct a false dilemma but suggesting that, if you don't support these goals, you at the very least oppose gender equality, or even worse (are a misogynist, Patriarchy apologist, rape apologist, etc.).

It's eerily similar to the propaganda techniques of communists and the far left.

thescientist8371 · 2013-06-21T18:46:05+00:00

A few days ago I made a video on this topic exactly. It has become one of my more popular videos. Take a look, let me know what you think.

http://youtu.be/yvx0L1QxitQ

burntoast101 · 2013-06-21T21:32:51+00:00

Frankly many people here don't necessarily identify as mras either. In public at least I tend to identify as an egalitarian. Makes for smoother debates and it's not an inaccurate statement. I think the label is just less important than your advocacy of the issues.

Nomenimion · 2013-06-21T12:40:05+00:00

I think they do it to disarm you.

mrfauxpas · 2013-06-21T17:21:55+00:00

I'm not sure this is a feminist thing per-say. For example in politics, you could be labelled something over-reaching just because of your position on a particular issue. Or the whole "geek vs nerd" labeling.

I apologize if those examples are bad. It resonates a whole lot better in my head.

/u/IcarusLived said it right in his reply within this thread. It's all about the framing. And as with everything, framing can be used positively or negatively. You just get the feeling, however, that most of the times it's unfortunately more a power play than anything else.

But you're totally right. Labelers should realize that while they might consider it an effective tactic, not everyone wants to be labeled.

Legolas-the-elf · 2013-06-21T21:15:31+00:00

I tell her I'm not a feminist. So she asks me what I stand for and I list up my stance. So she says, hey, you're a feminist.

I've never had this issue when I've told mras I'm not an mra.

I have, right here in this subreddit, multiple times.

spermjack_attack · 2013-06-22T05:44:59+00:00

If it makes you feel better, as a feminist I don't think you're a feminist. Does that help?

Randomthrowaway1992 · 2013-06-21T18:00:38+00:00

if you believe that women should have equal rights as men, then you're a feminist. If you believe that women are better than men, then you're a radical feminist.

2013-06-21T15:44:35+00:00

That is such a trivial thing to complain about. Also, don't say "why do feminists do this". It has nothing to do with feminists, just that one person. Posting stupid shit like this makes MRA look stupid.

This sub is turning into /r/atheism... it is one big circlejerk

Title	Why do feminists do this?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	76
Comments	77
Date	June 21, 2013 11:55 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1gsfm2/why_do_feminists_do_this/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-do-feminists-do-this.1170557 https://theredarchive.com/post/1170557

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