CMV: Toxic masculinity doesn't benefit men.

wub1234 · 2018-12-17T14:22:07+00:00

What the OP is describing is what is joked about here.

Many men, I would say most, spend large parts of their lives limiting the parameters of their existence, in order to conform with how they think they're supposed to behave.

Another related issue is that many men simply cannot deal with their emotions because they never learn how to do it. So when they're confronted with an emotional situation, which is inevitable, they either try to brush it under the carpet and ignore their emotions, or they get angry because that seems to be the only acceptable emotion.

My close friend describes her father as being really angry all of the time, and having frequent explosions. And I've explained to her more than once (because she's a woman, and has never been required to repress her emotions to this ridiculous degree, and therefore doesn't instinctively understand it as I do) that he gets angry because he can't deal with emotions and emotional issues, he has never learned how to do this, so this is the only reaction he can manage, as he's not able to express his emotions or display them.

I don't believe that this is beneficial for the human race, personally.

Tedesche · 2018-12-17T14:54:46+00:00

The guys that adhere to these toxic masculine gender norms are seen as insecure, homophobic, sexist or overcompensating, but not as attractive alphas.

I don't know what to tell you here; you're just wrong. Maybe in your little corner of the world, no one thinks this way, but the entire reason "toxic masculinity" is even a thing, is because there are norms to male behavior, they do reflect relatively primitive "alpha" dominance struggles, and women totally do select for them--that's why they continue to exist and why they continue to work.

It doesn't make you look alpha if you only drink beer and whiskey out of fear that someone is going to call you a faggot. Women do not think less of you just because you do not drink like a Real Man.

Yes, as a matter of fact, they do. I myself was once made fun of by a woman at a bar for holding my beer in what she thought was an effeminate manner. Something as ludicrous as that isn't commonly said out loud, but you're naive if you think plenty of women don't think it.

Confident men can drink whatever they want, even if it is non-alcoholic or sweet, without having to use manly alcoholic beverages in order to project masculinity.

Confidence is masculine. Yes, when a guy can pull this off, it works for him, but it's definitely a risk. The safer route is--as always--to follow the flock.

It doesn't make you look alpha if you primarily eat meat and call vegetables gay. It only makes you look like a picky eater that is too insecure in his masculinity.

Seriously, who do you know who does this?

TBH, you're giving a lot of straw-man examples here. How's about you choose some actual examples of behaviors feminists call "toxic masculinity" and TRPers maintain women pressure men to engage in via their sexual selection.

For example, paying on dates. This is toxic masculinity, because it hurts the man's bank account more than it should, and infantilizes the woman. And yet, we see plenty of men who insist on paying on dates, and plenty of women who insist they be paid for.

Let's take another one: having a high n-count. A long history of sexual partners is valued in men, because it's a demonstration of how many women they can convince to select them for mating. It's a direct measure of their value on the sexual marketplace. And we tend to see women going more for men with high n-counts. It may not be that the actual n-count is what is attracting women, but it is a measure of what attracts women, and therefore a valid measure on which men have an interest in "scoring" highly.

Another: aggressively protective behavior. Men protecting women is as old a phenomenon as men exerting physical dominance and control over women, if not actually older. This trope is so old, it's practically wired into our brains. This is why you see men coming to the aid of women being assailed in the street, but no one coming to the aid of men (in fact, most of the time, they point and laugh). Women are attracted to muscly men, turned on when a guy does something like pick them up off their feet, and--so long as they don't actually become the aggressor needlessly--turned on when a guy defends them from another man. It's also why a lot of women seek out men to be thugs on their behalf, and why so many men stupidly accept those roles.

I think you're having difficulty with this concept, because you're thinking about it in cartoonish terms. Start looking at the subtle, actual examples of gendered behavior in the world, and you'll start seeing how both men and women reinforce them fairly consistently.

Now, wouldn't it be nice if feminists ever held women accountable for their role in reinforcing "toxic masculinity?" LOL.

says_harsh_things · 2018-12-17T14:18:22+00:00

> Women do not think less of you just because you do not drink like a Real Man.

I got news for you, pal.

Teh-Voice-of-Reason · 2018-12-17T14:18:07+00:00

Domineering men generally have the highest status in their social circles which attracts a mate via he sharing his status with her.

Your mental gymnastics opens the door to Nu Males and Soy Boys who don't care about their status then throw the baby out with the bath water.

NalkaNalka · 2018-12-17T14:38:56+00:00

You mean toxic gender roles.

Use the proper non misandrist terms.

Eastuss · 2018-12-17T14:12:27+00:00

By definition toxic masculinity = everything self harming men.

But what they call toxic masculinity is actually what isn't beneficial to women and to other men, but is beneficial for a men acting for himself.

The guy that adhere to these toxic masculine gender norms is going to attract women, because women do expect these traits to be here. You know what my wife says about men who take care of their hair? Gay. She's not homophobic, she's just not attracted. Everything you talk about originates from these things. Lot of this is then male projection.

Having super big muscle is an example of projection, muscle are masculine, men think more muscle = more attractive, but eventually enough women will think they're gay for taking too much care of their body. Because masculine men don't give a fuck about what they look like.

You criticise men for projecting badly what they think is masculine but you're doing it yourself. Beta men all think that with enough confidence you can do anything you want. But truth is that masculine men can afford being less masculine, and nobody else can.

Your movie superstar with a square jaw, wealth, and social proof at maximum can afford wearing pink colors and shitty feminine clothings and make it a new trend, you can't.

The answer is that there's a just middle in everything, but TRP sets this middle higher than most blue pillers and you would and that's where we will disagree. What's very common to hear from women is that men who care too much are feminine and it's unattractive, yet this is also well known as toxic masculinity because this ideology can silence men who are having issues.

SerpentCypher · 2018-12-17T14:03:00+00:00

I actually agree with you for once (partially). Toxic masculinity cannot benefit men, because toxic masculinity doesn't exist.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2018-12-17T15:46:19+00:00

From all the things that are commonly listed as being toxic masculinity I can't think of a single one that's helpful for men, but according to TRPers toxic masculinity is essential for getting laid and women encourage it by exclusively sleeping with toxically masculine men.

I just don't see that in my life.

This is because for TRPers and also some pop-feminists, "toxic masculinity" basically works out to "conventionally masculine behavior (I, a feminist, don't like)." You're using the term to refer to a very exaggerated slice of conventionally masculine behavior, often taken to hilariously stupid and/or obviously self-destructive extremes.

But the way the term is often used, at least by pop-feminists, is "my boyfriend is acting like a bit of a boor, he's leaving the toilet seat up, he isn't very culturally sophisticated, and he grunts and cheers when watching sport games, and this annoys me so its Toxic Masculinity." TRPers have basically reclaimed the term as a way of reclaiming masculinity generally, and valorizing it against some of the more stupid feminist critiques.

It doesn't make you look alpha if you only drink beer and whiskey out of fear that someone is going to call you a faggot.

Other people can't tell the motivations behind your drink selection, so they wouldn't know if you drink what you drink primarily as an a Social Positioning Good. All they can tell is what you habitually drink, not why you drink it.

And you'd be in denial if you didn't think that there are prevalent social tropes which equate beer/whiskey consumption with masculinity, and describe cocktails/fruity beverages/etc as "chick's drinks." They're real tropes, relied on by marketers, and maintained by many members of both sexes (after all, women are part of society).

Women do not think less of you just because you do not drink like a Real Man.

Are you a woman? Are you representative of most women? If you answer "no" to either question, you're by definition mansplaining.

Confident men can drink whatever they want, even if it is non-alcoholic or sweet, without having to use manly alcoholic beverages in order to project masculinity.

Change the word "confident" to "physically attractive" and you'd be right. But "confidence" is just an internal mental state. You can be some ugly scrawny geek, or some flamboyantly queeny gay dude, or a fat alcoholic with asperger's syndrome, and still be confident in the literal sense of the term... but it isn't going to get you pussy.

"Confidence" is not a sufficient condition to get laid, and arguably it isn't even necessary. If you "look confident" you may secretly, inside, by a pathetic wreck who is desperate for social approval (which is why you cultivated such a confident appearance)... but people will still think you are, in fact, confident. And what is seen as a confident appearance on a man?

Generally, 'looking conventionally masculine.'

It doesn't make you look alpha if you primarily eat meat and call vegetables gay. It only makes you look like a picky eater that is too insecure in his masculinity.

No, you don't say "I don't eat vegetables because I'm a real man and salad is for fags," you say something like "I'm going to the gym a lot and need to watch my macros. I need a lot of protein."

Confident men can chose to be vegetarian without having to worry that someone is going to take away their man-card.

I agree. But very few men are truly confident (i.e. won't change themselves to comply with society's expectations, and unapologetically live by their own standards), and those who are are often not considered sexually desirable.

Not to mention, even if someone doesn't worry about having their man card socially revoked, that doesn't mean they will not have their man card revoked at all. It takes a fuckload of confidence for a man to do drag, but doing drag will absolutely encourage a lot of people to take your man card away! Your man card is something granted to you by others, not something you can retain by simple force of will.

I just don't understand how adhering to toxic masculinity is helpful for men.

Because they are often not talking about toxic masculinity in the first place. Just conventional masculinity or at least aesthetic masculinity or "macho mannerisms" on a shallow level.

A man does in fact benefit (socially and sexually speaking) from these things presuming they aim for social esteem and sexual success with women.

Note: I'm talking specifically about toxic masculinity and not about masculinity as a whole.

Then you're going to talk past the people who are trying to make the point that society (which, as you've pointed out, includes women) penalizes men who don't look/act at least meaningfully masculine. So, they use the phrase "toxically masculine" in a way that doesn't comply with the conventional definition. Big deal. Please confront the actual argument.

Can men look unmasculine (by traditional definitions) or act in a nonmasuline manner (by traditional definitions) without losing at least some sexual desirability or social status in the eyes of the typical straight woman? No. Are there some exceptions? Yes, some women have nontraditional preferences but they're a minority. In addition, some men are so physically attractive they can afford to slip-up in mannerism terms or "peacock" with their appearance, but these are not exceptions... they're just guys with so much "masculine capital" they can afford some deviations. Their deviations are acts of Costly Signalling, not "truly being confident in their masculinity."

Mr_Smoogs · 2018-12-17T15:04:53+00:00

Benevolent sexism is “toxic masculinity” and it certainly benefits men because it gets them laid.

aretourner · 2018-12-17T19:54:49+00:00

You're right, it doesn't.

OHG1 · 2018-12-20T23:05:31+00:00

Bros can shit on each other for drinking bitch drinks but everyone likes them sometimes.

Just moderate and take your lumps

crackrocksteady7 · 2018-12-17T15:00:33+00:00

The guys that adhere to these toxic masculine gender norms are seen as insecure, homophobic, sexist or overcompensating, but not as attractive alphas.

attractive alphas couldnt care less if you call them any of this

abaxeron · 2018-12-17T15:06:30+00:00

I just don't see that in my life.

Your anecdotes don't matter.

sadomasochrist · 2018-12-17T17:51:13+00:00

You have to define what is "toxic" because that's a list that is large or small depending. Create a list, be specific. This is just a lazy straw man and not eating vegetables isn't toxic masculinity. You need to define it. In this case it would be insecurity.

BiggerDthanYou · 2018-12-17T20:46:08+00:00

Women will fuck a toxically masculine man more than they will any other kind of man.

That's the benefit. Husbands will kill men they find in bed with their wives, but men still risk it. If men are willing to risk their lives to get laid, they'll do anything to get vag, it's a behaviour reinforcing reward.

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GrumpyOldHistoricist · 2018-12-17T15:53:37+00:00

Emulating stereotypically masculine behavior is playacting for men to whom authentic masculinity is alien. It’s usually pretty sad to witness.

I’m vegan, drink coke with grenadine when I’m out at bars, and respect women. And I do just fine with women who prefer masculine dudes. You’ve either got it or you don’t.

perhapsinin · 2018-12-18T01:16:09+00:00

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201812/feminists-think-sexist-men-are-sexier-woke-men

yolo__tomassi · 2018-12-18T01:30:01+00:00

I think your title is using circular logic here - toxicity is categorically non beneficial.

The toxicity I'm trying my best to see here seems to be something like 'giving in to social pressure for the sake of appearances is bad'. My argument is that those things are more about traditional trappings of masculinity rather than masculinity itself - that is to say, it's the traditions rather than the masculinity that are the problem.

The rabbit hole gets a little weirder if you think about real men being able to do whatever the fuck they want, including picking how to express their masculinity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVygqjyS4CA

wobbleelbbow · 2018-12-18T01:50:34+00:00

The guys that adhere to these toxic masculine gender norms are seen as insecure, homophobic, sexist or overcompensating, but not as attractive alphas.

This whole OP is pretty good example of toxicity, shaming men for being men. Way to disprove your own post.

darksoldierk · 2018-12-18T05:00:44+00:00

What's the saying? You are mistaking the molehill for the mountain?

The shit you listed is child stuff. No man past 23 years old thinks about drinking whisky or beer because he is afraid someone is gunna call him a faggot.

Now, the problem is, you are trying to separate toxic masculinity from masculinity, when they can't really be seperated since toxic masculinity doesn't exist. Just remember, when you think "toxic masculinity", all it really is is parts of men that don't benefit women. It's just parts of men that only benefit men. Who cares what benefits women? Women's definition of toxic masculinity would be equivalent to men saying that toxic femininity is women who aren't obedient. Are you okay with that? People making those kinds of labels?

So, TRP says to just be masculine, but because you've been brainwashed into believing that parts of masculinity are "toxic", you automatically see the examples of TRP and make the connection that TRP says that toxic masculinity is good for men. That' isn't what it's saying. There is nothing wrong with being competitive or being violent so long as you can control it. There is nothing wrong with going against the norm, the expectation.

You care too much about not being seen as an insecure, homophobic, sexist or over compensating so you make it a point to drink a sex on the beech when what you really want is a beer. There's nothing wrong with just having a beer man, nothing wrong with eating steak instead of salad.

It's as I said, not adhering to toxic masculinity is simply conforming to what women say that they don't like about masculinity, and you changing yourself to meet what women say they want is not going to get you anywhere. Embrace your masculinity, all of it. There is no toxic masculinity, again, that's just a term that women made up to try to make you feel guilty about thinking things and feeling things that are completely healthy and normal for you as a guy, but they are things that women don't want you to think or feel.

WavesAcross · 2018-12-18T06:43:47+00:00

Confident men can chose to be vegetarian without having to worry that someone is going to take away their man-card

Like usual you continue to straw man TRP. No one is worried about their "man card".

It is fact that vegetarians are less attractive than those who are not. If choosing not to be vegetarian because you want to be more attractive to women is an example of toxic masculinuty, then trp isn't wrong that it is beneficial for sleeping with, and encouraged by women.

the_calibre_cat · 2018-12-18T15:10:24+00:00

but according to TRPers toxic masculinity is essential for getting laid and women encourage it by exclusively sleeping with toxically masculine men.

I just don't see that in my life.

I mean, that's nice. I've seen it enough times to observe that heuristic is accurate. Women did masculine men. "Toxic masculinity" is basically just overdoing masculinity, which masculine men are overwhelmingly more likely to do - and you can't tell me that women don't dig it when their man gets aggressive with other dudes and comes out in top.

It doesn't make you look alpha if you only drink beer and whiskey out of fear that someone is going to call you a faggot. Women do not think less of you just because you do not drink like a Real Man.

Confident men can drink whatever they want, even if it is non-alcoholic or sweet, without having to use manly alcoholic beverages in order to project masculinity.

The number of times I've seen women go home with the guy that drank and isn't under the table is greater than zero, which is the number of times I've seen the guy that can't hold his alcohol go home with a lady.

Note: I'm talking specifically about toxic masculinity and not about masculinity as a whole.

And if it was easy and clear a line as feminists make it out to be, maybe they'd have a fucking point regarding it. It isn't, though, so they don't - and since they shame every aspect of masculinity to some degree no matter what, I'm not really sure feminists are the crew that men should ever turn to for above and guidance on how to deal with it.

Feminism is a women's special interest movement. They neither know how to be men, nor are their interests aligned with men.

SmackinDatAss · 2018-12-18T20:34:37+00:00

Oddly enough, the examples you give have NOTHING to do with masculinity.

Society and the media have decided to use the term toxic masculinity to describe anything bad that a man does. A guy beats his girlfriend--toxic masculinity. A guy shoots a crowd of people--toxic masculinity. And yet, the very act of beating your girlfriend or shooting a bunch of people is "un-masculine".

Drinking wine does not make you masculine or non-masculine. Eating meat does not make you masculine.

Your examples are not real world examples but instead caricatures.

HumanSockPuppet · 2018-12-17T18:17:45+00:00

From all the things that are commonly listed as being toxic masculinity I can't think of a single one that's helpful for men, but according to TRPers toxic masculinity is essential for getting laid and women encourage it by exclusively sleeping with toxically masculine men.

I just don't see that in my life.

Then you have failed. The other critical element to success that TRP preaches right next to toxic masculinity is personal responsibility.

whatyoucallaflip · 2018-12-17T18:41:02+00:00

In no culture ever studied have women repeatedly preferred to mate with pear-shaped, low-status, tepid men possessing high-pitched, nasal voices. In no documented culture do women’s sexual fantasies revolve around granting sexual access to unemployed, unambitious men who occupy the lowest stratum of the social hierarchy. Instead, women are attracted to “toxic masculine” male phenotypes that correlate with testosterone, and they are desirous of men who are socially dominant, who are strategically risk-taking in their behaviors, and who exhibit patterns of behaviors that will allow them to ascend the social hierarchy and defend their positions from encroachers.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/homo-consumericus/201803/is-toxic-masculinity-valid-concept%3famp

Your army of strawmen missed both what "toxic masculine" behaviors are, and why they are crucial.

hammerhaunts · 2018-12-17T19:19:15+00:00

I just don't see that in my life.

"Works on my machine"

jax006 · 2018-12-17T21:17:57+00:00

This q depends on what people define as toxically masculine. The mantra for Bloops here is that they narrow it down to a small enough set of behaviors that Terps cant argue with them.

This, however, is just in line with the whole bias we have here on PPD - the Blues here at PPD are redder than like 90% of Blues out in the real world. They will readily admit things about attraction that I would never be able to snuff out of my bleeding liberal family/friends back from NY.

Most of them would say its toxic masculinity for me to hide certain insecurities from girls I date lmao.

virtualvirgincake2 · 2018-12-17T14:36:30+00:00

Where in the red pill does it say embrace toxic masculinity? Its all about self improvement and focusing on your own needs before anyone else's, as well as waking up to the absolute gynocentric culture we live in.

Pope_Lucious · 2018-12-17T17:28:14+00:00

These are the strangest examples I’ve ever heard to describe “toxic masculinity”.

I listen to Beethoven while I work, enjoy wine, and pound a spinach shake every day as my last meal.

No one cares outside of the weird hypothetical universe you’ve created to combat these made up shadows.

ifelsedowhile · 2018-12-18T00:12:51+00:00

The concept of toxic masculinity is orwellian doublespeak as it's defined so ambiguously and vaguely that pretty much anything can fall into it.

Title	CMV: Toxic masculinity doesn't benefit men.
Author	BiggerDthanYou
Upvotes	8
Comments	192
Date	December 17, 2018 1:57 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/a700wf/cmv_toxic_masculinity_doesnt_benefit_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-toxic-masculinity-doesnt-benefit-men.258491 https://theredarchive.com/post/258491

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