Physical attractiveness.

Littleknownfacts · 2018-03-09T18:10:44+00:00

1: Do women deny the importance of physical attractiveness more than men do?

No.

2: What are all the actual reasons that explain why women deny that physical attractiveness matters to them?

Because there are other aspects at least as important to women as physical attractiveness. Not to mention women perceive physical attraction different from men. Men cannot feel attraction as women do, and when women try to explain it, as they feel it, men misunderstand what women are saying as "looks don't matter".

3: If a differential indeed exists, then what explains the differential between men and women in terms of denying the importance of looks?

See above.

wtknight · 2018-03-09T18:07:41+00:00

Do women deny the importance of physical attractiveness more than men do?

Most women don't, but of those who do, more of them are women.

What are all the actual reasons that explain why women deny that physical attractiveness matters to them?

Because they actually are attracted to other things besides physical attractiveness. These women may be unconsciously lying when they say they aren't attracted to the physical aspects of men, though. However, it's just one of several factors of attractiveness for women.

If a differential indeed exists, then what explains the differential between men and women in terms of denying the importance of looks?

Male sexual thirst is greater, and that thirst is mostly triggered by the physical features of women

blackedoutfast · 2018-03-09T20:28:10+00:00

looks matter but not nearly as much as you think they matter.

LOOKS ARE NOT THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS FOR WOMEN <- this is what you incel guys are not understanding.

you think it's like how it works for men, where we look at a girl and decide if we want to fuck her or not based just on her appearance. it's not that way for women. what matters for them is the sum total of a guy's looks AND a lot of other less tangible attractive traits like personality, confidence, social status, etc.

the appearance threshold where a guy is so ugly he is absolutely unfuckable no matter what is extremely low.

but a guy who is just above the absolutely unfuckable threshold isn't automatically fuckable. there's a huge gray zone in the middle where it depends on all those non-looks-based attractive traits.

the real problem for most incel-type guys who think that they're too ugly is NOT that they're too ugly. the real problem is that they don't have enough of those other non-looks-based attractive traits. a guy has to be extremely attractive for a woman to consider him to be automatically fuckable based on his looks alone.

the vast majority of incels and guys who struggle with women are relatively normal looking. they're NOT so ugly that they fall below the absolutely unfuckable line. but they're also not so ridiculously hot that they women want to fuck them based on their looks alone. like most guys, they're in that middle zone.

the reason you struggle with women is that the combination of your looks AND all of the non-looks-based attractive traits isn't enough.

to improve your SMV enough to start doing well with women, you can (and should) try to improve your looks. but the problem is that you probably will never be able to reach that level where you can coast by on looks alone. there are too many things out of your control (all the typical things incels bitch about - height, jaw, facial structure, hairline, ethnicity, etc).

BUT THAT'S NOT WHERE IT ENDS. remember all of the non-looks-based attractive traits like attitude, confidence, social status, etc? there are very few hard limits on those things. there's nothing in your DNA limiting how much social status you can have. stop worrying about if you can looksmax enough, start thinking about how you can attitudemax and confidencemax and socialskillsmax. fix all those non-looks-based attractive traits and you won't have any problems with women.

GridReXX · 2018-03-09T18:46:39+00:00

Where in the video does the woman say she doesn't at all care about how he looks?

If anything she's listing things that spark chemistry for her, post the guy meeting her looks threshold.

I think I'm going to quote myself discussing “chemistry ✨” since it's relevant:

Female Attraction Trigger Equation:

(Physical Attractiveness)x+ (Presence)x + (Competency Quotient)x = 👄👅💦x

The “x” multiple being how much that variable in the equation is weighted; and that varies per woman, per class strata, per religion, per region, per culture and subculture, her mood, her time of the month, her sobriety, her age, etc.

Physical Attractiveness is self explanatory, but can mean in addition to what he was born with, how he grooms, styles, etc.

Presence means his swagger, countenance, frame, confidence, etc.

Competency can mean a lot, but it includes his acuity regarding social and lifestyle means; also status.

Every woman has their own threshold for physical attractiveness, but it's there.

Depending on how superior the guy's "x" quotient in "Presence" and "Competency," his "Physical Attractiveness" can potentially be lower and he'll still be able to successfully "trigger her sexually."

It's just all very relative, but not "magic" or "feminine mystique."

To answer your questions:

1: Do women deny the importance of physical attractiveness more than men do?

Not really. It's simply assumed whomever she's dreaming up meets at least the lowest threshold for physical attractiveness. For some women it's literally "don't look repulsive" and if you have the other things she's turned on.

2: What are all the actual reasons that explain why women deny that physical attractiveness matters to them?

I hang around women and understand women so I don't see them denying anything. For most women it takes more than physical attractiveness for us to be turned on and those things can feel more or less subjective so women spend more time trying to figure that out instead of "derrr don't be righteously repulsive looking." And quite frankly the fact that men like Pete Doherty who look like unbathed ghouls can get hot women to genuinely lust after them makes it seem pretty obvious to me that the "female attraction equation" def includes WAYYYYYYY more than "looks."

3: If a differential indeed exists, then what explains the differential between men and women in terms of denying the importance of looks?

See above.

Tl;Dr

The disconnect seems to be that for men the arousal trigger is "be hot."

And for women it's more of an equation.

Women are not men. We do not have penises and hard-ons. Our arousal is its own separate thing.

goatismycopilot · 2018-03-09T18:12:13+00:00

They,they, they,they, they, they, they.

Women think that looks matter, how much looks matter and what looks matter will vary from woman to woman.
Women do not deny that physical attractiveness matter. Here at PPD when women state a preference that aligns with what the purple and red men think they should think they are told they are lying.
Men are up front about needing physical attraction, they lie about personality stuff. Everybody here always says they want an agreeable woman but if the woman looks close to their ideal they will date or marry a total psychotic bitch in order to obtain the looks they desire or the sex they desire. Nothing wrong with that however it conflicts a little with the whole agreeable/pleasant meme. Perhaps men are embarrassed because they are shallow and will tolerate crazy bitch stuff if they are hot, and women are embarrassed about being shallow about how looks matter. Men and women are both shallow, just shallow about different things.

DarkLord0chinChin · 2018-03-09T18:17:47+00:00

I have this wild theory that the term "attracted" does not apply to women at all. Feminine body parts and pretty faces arouse me literally just looking at them. I want more of that and I want to keep looking, it's like a magnet. I can spot a feminine shape among a million things, my eyes automatically fixate on it.

I think women are aroused by their brains instead, there are no male camboys, there are no magazines with hot Chads that women can't take their eyes away from, Chads are not used as decorations on car shows, etc. Instead women read / write weird walls of text that contain kinky porn, get wet thinking about how tall and strong that 6'6 guy is and get butterflies thinking about how cool it would be if that super successful rich self-made guy proposed to them.

On the other hand there's countless evidence of Chads and just better-looking guys doing much better than meh guys, which doesn't work well with my theory. One explanation is that having an asymmetrical / ugly face leads to a decrease in perceived status, so effectively being handsome is a passive bonus towards arousing her.

Priene · 2018-03-09T19:23:33+00:00

The importance of looks aren't worth mentioning because women think men aer going to bring the minimum to the table. That is to say the fucker won't be a fat ass with acne, a neckbeard and shitty hair that he either refuses to shave(balding) or he has decent hair but doesn't take good care of it, or he dresses like a 12 year old kid, or he's a square.

1: Do women deny the importance of physical attractiveness more than men do?

No, it's men who deny the importance of physical attractiveness more than women do when you realize that most of the Country is obese and most of those landwhales are men.

Hollywood doesn't deny the importance of looks, 'cuz last I checked it was Justin Fucking Timberlake starring next to Natalie Portman in No strings-attached instead of the ''average'' joe.

So why won't guys take their hint from Hollywood?

TheGreasyPole · 2018-03-09T19:59:03+00:00

1: Do women deny the importance of physical attractiveness more than men do?

No, it's just for men physical attractiveness is by far the most important characteristic... and for women it's one thing among a lot of other things that also contribute.

2: What are all the actual reasons that explain why women deny that physical attractiveness matters to them?

I don't think they do. I think they describe it correctly as they see it, and men (being MUCH more physically orientated) don't believe them.

Then they see the women being attracted to physically good looking men too, and they really don't believe it, but it's really just men applying their mental model of attractiveness on women again. The men the girls are attracted to often have LOTS of other things going for them that the men fail to notice in their haste to explain it all by physical looks.

(As you can tell I'm not a lookist).

3: If a differential indeed exists, then what explains the differential between men and women in terms of denying the importance of looks?

OK, so we're going to use the analogy /u/Littleknownfacts referred to below.

Imagine each woman as a board of lights. 10 bulbs by 10 bulbs, so a hundred bulbs in total.

We're going to say if you light 30 of her bulbs she'd possibly be attracted to you, if you light 50 she'll definitely feel strongly attracted, and if you light 70 she's REALLY going to be totally into you.

Each bulb you light with a particular thing, and perhaps some thing light quite a few bulbs.

Now you might assume, and Blue Pill Assumes, that the things that light her 100 bulbs are different for every woman... some like guys with dark hair... some blondes... some thing guys... some fat guys. But thats not true. What Red Pill has noticed is that there are some things that light bulbs on almost every womans board. They're what we call "Alpha Traits". Almost every woman lights lots of her bulbs for them.

Some of those are physical... facial symmetry, height, muscles... but lots of others are not... confidence, dominance, intelligence, status, wit etc etc.

And of course, plenty of womens individual bulbs are still idiosyncratic too... Maybe this one likes guys who look smart and tidy... and this other girl likes scruffy surfer bum types. But as these bulbs are idiosyncratic you can't really target them, because they're different for all women. These are just a minority really compared to the bulbs they light that all women share in common.

To get a girl attracted to you, you need to light a lot of her bulbs. And it's rarely enough to do so just on physical looks alone. Maybe if you're Brad Pitt, top 1% by looks type, you can do it just off that... but almost all guys IRL who are not professional model worthy in the looks department are going to have to light lots of non-physical traits as well as physical ones to draw attraction. Yet the "lookists" see the Brad Pitts and assume that is all there is.

How does this relate to your question ?

Well, guys are much more like a board with four big bulbs on it. One lights when she is young. One lights when she is attractive. The third lights when she is ideal weight. The 4th when she is not crazy. 3 out of 4 is enough.

So they assume women are the same... But they're not.

However, the go off and fit the women they see dating guys into their personal model.

Now, because physical attractiveness are in the alpha traits that light all women's bulbs ... the guys these girls are attracted to are often reasonably attractive. So the guys assume thats what got them the girl. They don't see or notice the other things those guys had going for them that light women's bulbs, but not mens, they're blind to them being factors really.

So they don't notice that the dominant, witty, guy displaying risk-taking behaviour gets the girls if he is decently attractive too.... they just think "the girl went for the attractiveness". She didn't. He probably wasn't attractive enough to her without those other things. He didn't light enough bulbs.

Other times they notice unattractive guys with bags of DGAF attitude, confidence, wit and risk taking behaviour get a girl even though they're ugly. But they kind of write those off as aberrrations, even though they should be a big clue that the guys "4 light system" doesn't work with girls.

The point for an aspiring male to take note of.... many of the things that light women's bulbs are things they can easily improve.

A guy who "lights" only 5 naturally .... because he ain't that good looking, and doesn't naturally have other traits women are looking for, is easily able to light 30 or 40 or 50 with increasing application. Developing the other traits or things that light those bulbs. But many do not. They apply the male system and say "Shit, I'm not attractive...it's hopeless for me.... so I give up" and they stay single and blame it on their not being attractive pointing to the naturally good looking guys with girls as proof.

Even guys who are "natural" 30's or 40's... and so getting natural attention.... can easily extend into the 50's or 60's or 70's by acquiring developable traits loads of women like (as well as getting luck and triggering a few idiosyncratic ones in some women).

But they too tend to think "Nah, it's all looks" (applying the male 4 light model to women) and so nerf themselves from their real potential.

Nor is this solipsism... applying their system wrongly to the other sex... unique to men.

Women apply their 100 bulb system to men in error too. They say "Hey! No need to be good looking, thin, young and not crazy. I get attracted to guys if they've got status, so if I'm a doctor more guys will fancy me (they won't).... or... I like guys better if they're witty, so I'll try to be funny too (they generally won't)".

Basically women are attracted across a whole range of things guys generally are unaware of. It's only a very few places like RP that work this out, and start targeting things that are commonly shared across female boards that are not looks.

And, fundamentally, it's why the lookist faction are wrong. They'd be right if they were talking about guys. But they're talking about girls, and thats not generally how it works.

There are plenty of bad boys out there with DGAF attitudes, riding motorbikes, and otherwise triggering loads of lights on womens boards that are (by any objective measure) ugly. And women are attracted to them nevertheless... because they are hitting so many of the other things on women's boards that commonly make men attractive.

theambivalentrooster · 2018-03-09T18:04:32+00:00

[permanently deleted]

ellieectrode · 2018-03-11T01:30:53+00:00

Of course looks matter. Most people want to date a person at least as attractive or a little more attractive than themselves.

Women who say that looks don't matter are just average to okay looking folks who know they're not going to appeal to their potential dating pool of average to okay looking dudes by proclaiming how important it is to date the handsomest men possible.

Merger-Arbitrage · 2018-03-09T18:58:44+00:00

What is there to discuss here? Why do we care what some women deny?

Meta-analyses summarizing studies of mate selection and attraction (relationships/marriages) will tell you what kind of mates men and women actually pick.

Here's one with an EvoPsych angle.

Both men and women prefer "sexually attractive" partners (esp. men) and this includes various physical traits.

If anyone has one without the EvoPsych angle, please post it.

Note: the guy in the video sounds like a fucking autistic bozo.

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Maikowski2 · 2018-03-09T21:51:10+00:00

That video is fantastic

terrible video. There were like 3-4 things I agree with the author of the video, the rest is just usual incel coping "muh face is all that matters". No. Face alone won't get you even in truck driver's panties. You have to act at least a bit confident around women to really make them wet. Just being wallflower may attract maybe fatties and other other world specimens.

I think most girls are BP but their advice shouldn't be outright rejected. They won't tell you full truth but they can and usually do tell you part of the truth. Laughing and smiling is really really really effective. It brings your attractiveness level by at least 0.5 point. Sometimes even more.

So if you are 5/10 like me, laughing and acting like you belong and not giving two fucks what observers are thinking will open at least half of the doors that attractive male model can open. Sure not everybody can enjoy good looks, that's the thing that should be FORGOTTEN forever if you are bellow average male. You should stop focusing on your lack of good looks, nothing will change from that. Because the more you focus on it the more insecure you appear and the more people notice that .. something is wrong about that guy.. oh he's just ugly. Well, they gonna notice that first, because the guy is not just ugly, but he doesn't act like he belongs, he is insecure, he holds his beer close to his chest, not to his legs and he goes around not trying to look people in the eyes - that is real attraction killer and as long as one is oblivious to this fact, as long as one is not self-aware of it, one will stay in this rotting pit full of snakes forever blaming others for his lack of social skills.

Social skills are learned. They do not come to you with "genetics" (maybe some, but not all), and it is possible to improve so much that people would never believe you when you say "I was so shy when I was younger".

There was a good video about average looking public speaker who was so afraid of the crows he couldn't spend one second in front of the audience. Yet he managed over the years to teach himself how to speak against the crowd. And he became so good at it, that he made it into a business coaching others and becoming a wealthy person. Which instantly made him much more attractive.

Incels and other failures constantly compare themselves to others, compare to unreachable standards and it makes them even more bitter and miserable. Stop comparing yourself to others, compare only to yourself, your yesterday self. Yourself 2 weeks ago, you are the only person who you should outgrow.

VoidInvincible · 2018-03-10T01:02:13+00:00

Well, a woman rated me an 8.5 today in person (she's my drug plug) and I have been rated a 5.5-6 on /r/truerateme so I don't know who to believe. Actually, I do. I'll just go on faith that I truly am an 8.5 and ignore what incels think.

bagoonga · 2018-03-10T03:23:52+00:00

I'll make this easy:

Different people have different opinions of what good-looking is, and different people care more about looks than others. It only looks different with different genders because society gives different ideals to men and women. Men are told to gain status and power and women are told to be pretty. Typical behavior will reflect these norms, but the fact that they are norms does not mean they are innate.

Anecdotally (like everyone else in this sub), I have met women who judged guys' appearance more than I judge women's. I have met guys who literally don't care about looks and are only really attracted to people they have an emotional connection with, and being an idiot in middle school I gave them shit for it.

The thing is, people vary more than you would think based on simplistic ideas of the essential nature of the sexes, and if you try to use those ideas to explain people, you're going to get some simple and inaccurate ideas (but be convinced they're plausible because you have internally-consistent reasoning to support it and think that's all that's needed).

2018-03-14T16:24:23+00:00

Self preservation, actually. By not being 100% honest, women are keeping the Seung-Hui Cho and Elliot Rodgers incidents to a minimum. Yes: the vast, vast majority of men won't go postal when rejected (even in a rather direct manner). And there's always going to be incidents like those no matter what. But if we were honest like "You just don't have genetically what it takes and frankly I wouldn't fuck an inferior male specimen such as yourself" level of honest, then those occurrences would likely be more common and she would put herself at greater risk (even though most males wouldn't react violently of course).

Her right to minimize the risks by lying to you >>>>>> your selfish right to demand she is honest/not lying. Every single time.

ReluctantSlimeball · 2018-03-09T18:20:38+00:00

You’d be surprised how unimportant looks are if you aren’t confident/alpha.

soupladlelad · 2018-03-10T18:53:09+00:00

In the world of women the importance of attraction and physical appearance is a given. It's drilled into then since they were 5 and their dad's came home from work saying "there's my beautiful princess". They aren't saying it's not important. They are assuming you have enough socialization to know it is and emphasizing the importance of these other factors.

You also have to think about "important for". These women are saying these other factors are of high (maybe even higher) importance for a relationship. Your concern if a fuck so you're not even having the same conversation

LewisCross · 2018-03-09T18:43:34+00:00

1: Do women deny the importance of physical attractiveness more than men do?

Yes

2: What are all the actual reasons that explain why women deny that physical attractiveness matters to them?

--they don't want to look like bitches.

--they don't want to be seen as shallow, superficial, or stupid.

--they don't want to hurt unattractive people's feelings.

--they don't want the guys they reject shittalking them to the hot guys they are attracted to. (I think this is a reason they have but I don't think the facts back it up. I don't think most guys they reject shittalk them to attractive men; and I don't think attractive men care about whether the girls they pump and dump are bitches or not. Attractive men don't stick around long enough to figure out if she's a bitch or not, and if they do, they drop her the minute she starts getting bitchy.)

The ones you mentioned.

3: If a differential indeed exists, then what explains the differential between men and women in terms of denying the importance of looks?

See response to 2. above.

TheBookOfSeil · 2018-03-09T18:29:55+00:00

they want to seem morally superior (but why more so than men? don't men also have this desire? why do women have a greater desire in this regard?)

I don't think this has anything to do with attractiveness.

they lack introspection and therefore express the way they would think/feel in an ideal world as though it is actually the way they think/feel, without any self-insight as to the reality of the situation ("hamstering?"); the hamstering often involves a claim that XYZ traits are attractive without a recognition that these traits are attractive if and only if the looks-threshold is met.

I wouldn't say that they "lack" introspection. There is an obvious disconnect between what women consciously say that they want, and what their brains subconsciously communicate that they want through their physiology.

consciously/subconsciously, they want to keep orbiters around and these orbiters would vanish if these orbiters knew that they had no chance

Orbiters are used for personal reasons, not anything based on their physical attractiveness.

consciously/subconsciously, they want to keep their post-Wall "beta bux" retirement-plan available (why would this require deceit unless they actually think that their future "beta bux" husband is somehow within earshot, which is incredibly unlikely? how would telling the truth possibly come back to bite her in this regard? it seems unlikely...)

That is a conscious desire, and not relevant to physical attractiveness.

1: Do women deny the importance of physical attractiveness more than men do?

More commonly, yes.

2: What are all the actual reasons that explain why women deny that physical attractiveness matters to them?

Think of it as though women have two brains. One brain is aroused by subconscious physical attractiveness, and the other brain is aroused by everything that they consciously say that they like. That is why they are capable of being with someone who is not as physically attractive, but are capable providing stability, security and everything else the "Beta Bux" concept describes.

3: If a differential indeed exists, then what explains the differential between men and women in terms of denying the importance of looks?

I don't understand what you're asking. Women are attracted to things in addition to physical appearance. Men, not so much.

Title	Physical attractiveness.
Author	ThenIncrease
Upvotes	19
Comments	261
Date	March 9, 2018 5:57 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/838nj0/physical_attractiveness/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/physical-attractiveness.263308 https://theredarchive.com/post/263308

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