The Blue Pill & Gaslighting

GridReXX · 2014-03-05T20:01:50+00:00

I never got the advice described in the article. When I was growing up, I was told that attractive girls like attractive guys and vice versa. What's attractive to girls? Symmetrical face, masculine facial features, athletic body, height, ect. My mom also told me that if I'm ever wealthy, some women will date you for you money, and that those women don't actually like you, they just like the lifestyle you provide for them.

shitlordlucy · 2014-03-05T21:09:18+00:00

Current advice to both men and women is terrible, which is one main reason I see the side of TRP. Women are told men should and will love them no matter what they do or look like (and that any guy who doesn't is an ass). The idea that anyone is less than a special perfect prize is just never covered.

Men get BS "just be nice to a woman and she will like you eventually" stuff, as well as endless "respect women" stuff (honestly, you should respect everyone to some degree but women are not infallible and some women are not respectable people, same with some men)

And then everyone goes off about how this culture ruins our "self esteem". If anything it inflates it.

autoNFA · 2014-03-05T19:31:16+00:00

Absolutely agree with this article. It's insulting to be lied to over and over and be told that either 1. those lies were never spoken or 2. we were supposed to ignore them - but only at certain times (times which we were somehow supposed to figure out).

Most salient example: the movie Can't Hardly Wait.

sh1v · 2014-03-05T21:40:08+00:00

Warning: Serious post incoming.

I think the shittiest of the shitty blue pill advice really reached its zenith in the mid 90s. Third wave feminism had gained serious traction into all areas of public life, particularly the academic sphere and media, which is where kids (American at least) derive much of their ideas about... well, everything. All the shit that the "bad advice" crowd complain about were rampant during this time. Weak or emasculated male role models in every corner, especially in media and in the public sphere. Political correctness was recognized as a growing plague upon the civilized world, enforcing a herd mentality and reflexive shaming culture that confined thought, debate and speech into increasingly narrow confines of acceptability.

There was not yet any coherent response to it at a political or societal level, but at the cultural level there was a certain... if not backlash, then simply areas naturally resistant to feminism, populated by a rogue's gallery of bogeyman who still dominate the feminist consciousness to this day. The over privileged casual rapist frat boy. The violent, macho, neanderthal jock. The unrepentant, staunchly conservative southern patriarch. I hate to use a feminist phrase, but "toxic masculinity" was alive and well at this time. There were bullies beating the shit out of middle school kids giving rise to school shootings. Mobs of troglodyte skinheads literally stoning and crucifying gays out in the midwest. High school cliques were crueler and more repressive than anything seen today, unrestrained by zero tolerance policies or anything of the sort.

The response from leftists, academics and intellectuals was to try to metaphorically beat this out of kids through "education." Basically they thought that if they just hammered the "be nice" message (the opposite of what this resistant, asshole portion of the male population was doing) into boys hard enough, and often enough, that the above problems would all go away. But what it actually did was simply create a division between kids that bought into the new message (who, being inherently inclined to niceness, were never the problem to begin with) and those that did not. We see that same division reflected in the posts in this thread. Part of it is a generational gap, part of it is probably location-based (US suburbs and affluent urban areas were more under the sway of liberal intellectualism than other places), part of it is socio economic class, etc, etc. Throw a kid into the midst of this, add in some other factors like having an alpha widow single mom, or being born into a particularly left leaning household, or whatever the case may be, and you have a formula for disaster.

To recap: you've got a fraction of the young male population, highly visible, violent, aggressive, dominant, and as you can imagine, successful with the ladies. You've got another fraction heeding the advice of teachers, counselors, the ocassional misguided parent, and all the other well meaning authorities telling them that niceness is what (40something embittered feminist) women really appreciate. The two groups are mutually exclusive, and in the highly clique driven milieu of which I speak, it's difficult to simply jump ship. Hence, once you're part of the latter group the pressure is to continue doubling down and investing in your beliefs, aided along by the factors that led you to it in the first place.

I don't know how relevant this all is to today. My suspicion is that the desire to engineer nice, non threatening boys has diminished along with the overall influence of feminism. As a new generation of feminists, academics, and intellectuals has come of age, with a healthy disdain for the class of neutered males their predecessors created, so too have the priorities and tastes of feminism shifted. They're sophisticated enough now to demand men who can strike just the right balance between obsequiousness and outright dominance, who are naturals at making them feel all the nervous insecure tingles but simultaneously the deep abiding respect that they feel entitled to... whereas feminists of yore were just aiming for what either what they thought they wanted, or simply thought they could achieve; the lesser of two evils.

That's my 2c. I don't know if it will resonate with any of you blue pillers. There's a reason you're blue and not red pillers after all.

pillburt · 2014-03-05T19:48:10+00:00

Ironically, we have a group of 40,000 guys saying they've gotten bad advice from parents, family, television, and school- and here on PPD we have a bunch of people doing exactly what's illustrated in your article.. "I've never heard such terrible advice! They must be crazy..."

"I have never heard anyone say anything"

Of course, kangajoe, nobody phrases it that way, they just teach the man out of you. They teach you the "right" way to progress.. touchy-feely anti-masculine bullshit. They teach you that anything like competition, aggression, and other traits are to be avoided and nobody likes them. They teach you tons of terrible stuff. And then the television and movies reinforce it...

"As a man - I mean, male - all my life, I've never received the kind of bad advice that TRP always complains about."

Outright denial. Unbelievable.

"I do wonder...we all know Rambo is not real, but why do some men hold onto the Disney romance world for so long?"

Maybe these guys are so stupid, they deserve to fail!

Kenny__Loggins · 2014-03-06T02:40:20+00:00

It seems there are multiple ways to take the "be nice" tip that young guys get sometimes for dating. The first is to just be a good person in general and treat women with respect. The other is to be a doormat and supplicate to women. Not that I'm saying people consciously think it out that way. But it seems that a lot of times, people complain about how "nice guys finish last", and I'll agree they do, if we are defining nice as "pushovers." It is entirely possible to be nice, masculine, and confident all at once.

Not many women will be attracted to a really insecure guy no matter how nice he is. Harboring respect toward women is just something that a lot of people feel should be instilled in young men. When people say that, however, they don't mean that you should castrate yourself and use your testicle juice to lube her bike chain.

PastorofMuppet · 2014-03-05T18:56:56+00:00

As a man - I mean, male - all my life, I've never received the kind of bad advice that TRP always complains about. No one ever told me just to be nice, to always be deferent to women, etc. When this trope comes up - and it always does - I literally have no idea what you're on about. It may very well be your experience, but it's certainly not the universal you all claim it is.

My theory is that a lot of guys say this because it allows them to avoid taking responsibility for their lack of success. It's not their fault, it's society's fault, it's the culture's fault, it's their parents' fault, it's the media's fault, it's the educational system's fault.

Anyhow, I'd love some actual examples of music, movies or TV programs that have led you astray. My guess is that for every example you offer, I can find a counter example.

mc0079 · 2014-03-05T18:38:32+00:00

Is some advice suspect? Sure as is all "advice"...but most men/women/people through socialization, maturity and experience learn that Disney ain't real....the people who "suddenly" realize Disney ain't real and become bitter are the ones left behind. While everyone else realizes that people are human and flawed and can make bad choices and not be perfect, relationships take work etc.... these guys hold on the the Disney princess fantasy they never existed.

I do wonder...we all know Rambo is not real, but why do some men hold onto the Disney romance world for so long?

BabeOfBlasphemy · 2014-03-06T23:15:24+00:00

I do thinks its a maladaptive culture but not one due to feminism, rather due to the imperialist self entitled "have it your way", "on demand" culture which teaches everyone to be a narcissustic, special snow flake who should chase after the next thrill and the only ethic one should retain Is to maximize their own profit and happiness.

BOTH men and women bitch about the shallowness, selfishness, and lack of morality of each other. They argue over who is worse and no one seems to notice the demon they see in others is also in themselves....

Young fat neck beards bitching the out of league women they want only like asshole frat boys. As if she's not entitled to be just as superficial as he is... Women bitching men don't make enough money, as if their anti union politics help their cause...

I could go on and in but I won't bother because I know some self entitled moron who is convinced its the evil of the other gender will pitch a shit fit downvote fest...

[deleted] · 2014-03-06T03:34:37+00:00

[permanently deleted]

kangajoe · 2014-03-05T18:39:25+00:00

No, I don't agree with that article at all. I have never heard anyone say anything like "Masculinity is not attractive and girls don’t like it." Can you list any examples of movies or TV shows that encapsulate an "anti-masculine" message? How are you defining masculinity in this context?

I don't know what you mean by "strange-bedfellow relationship between traditional conservatives and feminists" (maybe you could articulate further?) but the only thing I can think of that they might have in common is general advice that treating other people well is important. Isn't it obvious why kindness is a widespread social value across various political philosophies?

Also, being nice to people doesn't mean that they will automatically want to date you. Just because you were nice to someone and they didn't sleep with you doesn't mean that kindness is bad strategy in general. It just means they weren't attracted to you (for any number of reasons), or they were already taken, or they weren't looking for anything at the moment, or they were working through some other issue, or maybe they thought you were cool but had doubts about how successful the relationship could be in the long run. I've rejected people for all of those reasons, and I've been rejected for most of them as well. Rejection isn't a sign of some great conspiracy. It's just part of life. It happens to everyone.

I would never date someone who wasn't kind, and I know lots of nice, empathetic, kind men who are in happy relationships.

rulenumber303 · 2014-03-05T21:04:50+00:00

Hah. As kids everyone gets the "be nice" treatment from parents, schools, etc. What exactly does he think the world would be like if kids weren't told to be nice? There'd be 9 year olds setting fire to cars in the street, and roving gangs of 14 year olds shaking down grannies for their pension money. I think that probably trumps whether or not you're going to need to learn to vary your approach in order to get laid when you become an adult.

masterrod · 2014-03-06T03:54:40+00:00

I think this situation arises from so many single mothers in this day and age. Instead of men watching their fathers be men, they have to seek out find out how to be man.

Culture at large shows that assertive people get to goals. Relationships, shows or romantic comedies show the same. So, I'm not really sure that men are getting the wrong advice. The major problem is part of being a man is taking risks, accepting consequences, and more than anything knowing where he's going in life. As long as men know how to do that, feminist must respect it, because at that point they are marginalized.

fasterfind · 2014-03-05T20:33:34+00:00

Blue pill theory doesn't exist, because it's just common sense. RP theory comes from the media, not blue pill.

RP mods will delete your posts and ban you if you say something they disagree with that is outside of the strict codex of thought. Blue pillers can say anything they want, we have no rules. Again, that's how common sense works versus dogma.

[deleted] · 2014-03-07T06:46:00+00:00

The whole "women don't like niceness" thing is bunk anyway. Vetinarian, humanitarian aid worker, paramedic, firefighter: all professions which are fairly high on the panty dropper scale.

What women do not like however, is niceness born of weakness.

The problem isn't any kind of false imperative to "be nice" (which is obviously going to circle society in some form or another) its that most mens definition of nice is a kind of push towards bland innoffensiveness.

Those_Who_Remain · 2014-03-05T20:11:33+00:00

Barring a better explanation for today's swarm of beta men, I believe your assertion is true.

A = blue pill teachings

B = blue pill men

B is true

If A, then B

If B, then possibly A, but possibly C or D.

So, are there any other explanations for why B is true? What could C or D be?

Title	The Blue Pill & Gaslighting
Author	roe_
Upvotes	14
Comments	327
Date	March 5, 2014 5:47 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1zn4fg/the_blue_pill_gaslighting/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-blue-pill-gaslighting.286114 https://theredarchive.com/post/286114

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