Why is the burden of knowing "good" from "bad" feminism placed solely on men?

a-man-from-earth · 2021-12-28T22:25:05+00:00

Great post! Stickied.

dzialamdzielo · 2021-12-28T20:32:51+00:00

This is really insightful, actually. I think I agree with you.

It's sort of an epistemological gotcha:

"No, it doesn't matter if your experiences led you to a very functional, albeit negative, definition of feminism. Only my definition is correct and it's your fault you don't share it."

Skirt_Douglas · 2021-12-28T21:24:05+00:00

If the “good” feminists are providing cover for the “bad” feminists, allowing them to flourish unchecked by downplaying their greater role in feminism and how their ideas have roots in the ideology, then the good ones aren’t all that “good”, are they?

RhinoNomad · 2021-12-28T21:25:34+00:00

EDIT: I don't have any hatred for feminism. It's a deep and varied movement and while there are not enough feminists who are seeking to challenge misandry, there are many who do.

For someone who's more "feminist-friendly" than the rest of us, you did a pretty good job of highlighting what a lot of people in male advocacy spaces have with feminism.

Especially here:

It's doubly confusing to realize that the expectation is on men to "educate themselves" and somehow sift through this quagmire of no-true-Scotsmans, the vocal misandrists, the genuinely hateful, and come back to the original person and be open-minded and ready to learn.

Also here:

They don't see the interactions with women overflowing with hate and anger who use feminist language as a paper thin shield for their dripping misandry. And even if they do interact with it, chances are there's just not as visceral of a reaction as if they were male. So bad feminists are even further written off.

I think it's even deeper than a simple visibility bias issue, its that many feminist identifying folk, both male and female, implicitly agree with the explicit misandry of "so-called" problematic feminists. I know it's a harsh thing to admit, but many, even well-meaning feminists, turn to soft victim-blaming, misandry by omission, and "not our problem" points in the face of male victimization.

I've spent a while reading feminist literature, participating in AskFem, and discussing with my friends who are PhD students in psychology (all self-identified feminists), and one thing that hit me is that from the disproportionate rate of homelessness to the disparate outcomes in childhood between black men and black women to male victims of domestic violence, men were somehow to blame for their situation.

Often times some in the group were perplexed by how boys could be falling behind girls that have to deal with misogyny and racism. They would argue that male victimization is male perpetrated and it's "not their problem." Or how it is "easier" for a man to leave an IPV situation than it is for a woman. Or how homelessness happens because men are more likely to be drug-addicted. Or even that men commit suicide at higher rates because they don't reach out and are inherently more violent than women are.

To be clear, this isn't necessarily a "feminist" thing, conservatives make these types of arguments too, to an even more extreme level. However, feminists, who are used to systems-level thinking for women, can fall into the trap of denying male victimization the same analysis.

This type of thinking creates "misandry by omission" which basically means that less research, studies, analysis, and information is available on male victims and victimization and when it is proposed, it is often underfunded or rejected. Male victims of rape, SA, prison, human trafficking, sex trafficking, CP, domestic abuse, general violence etc are rendered invisible leading researchers and the general public to believe they simply don't exist or when it does happen, it's rare and not that bad.

There are plenty of feminists who are actively working against this bias, including Adam Jones, the late Murray Strauss, Emily Yoffe, Lara Stemple (there's a lot of others, but they escape me atm). But they are in the vast vast minority and bias against male victims is still prevalent.

Sorry for the massive comment, I could make a whole post on this subject because it's something I'm pretty familiar with from interacting with problematic feminist arguments on a nearly daily basis for 3 years.

SpiritedPenguin · 2021-12-28T21:04:07+00:00

I think the kinds of feminists you're talking about here probably just think 'why can't everyone just have the gender studies lecturer I had', ignoring of course that most people don't even go to university.

I'm with you tho, elements of feminism are fine but if they have a PR problem, it's their own fault for only ever giving lip service to helping men and for being too bogged down in stupid theory disputes instead of actually trying to help anyone.

fndo84 · 2021-12-29T00:00:36+00:00

You have already stated it in your text. Again, we are seeing the effects of the classical no-true-Scotsman in action. Following this same line:

Some religion may argue that priest child abuse epidemic within their church doesn't represent the true religion, or justify their actions using the concept of 'god'
Some country may argue that war crimes committed by their armed forces doesn't represent the true spirit of the armed forces, or that that crimes are not as bad the wrong their army is combating
People who believe in an specific political ideology that have examples of authoritarianism and abuse to population may argue that are not "abuses" at all or that their ideology is thriving for a bigger goal and some things doesn't represent it correctly

Every one of this cases, as well as many others, are about a group trying to separate the actions of their members from the "ideals" of their discourse.

Every ideology tends to be "idealized" in the discourse, and when people who labels themselves as members (or even have official memberships in some cases) act in ways that are against the stated beliefs, the group has the "instinct" to protect the comfort of their idealistic view, instead of admitting that real people of their own group, who share their flags, ideas, spaces and language are acting in reprehensible ways using their core dogmas as shields, justifying their actions, taking the examples above:

Some priest justified the abuse as being a situation "sent by god" so, religious dogmas are at the core of his beliefs
In a war perceived as joust, many people justified war crimes , so the ideological visions about their own group create a moral bias
Some students justified forced labor camps by trying to frame them as "compassionate", just to "protect" the dogmas of their political beliefs

We just need to realize that feminism is the exact same: a dogmatic ideology, that on one hand is trying to impose its idealized definition, but on the other has very real members showing to the world that their definition doesn't represent reality.

Every ideology wants the outsiders to belive in their dogmas, and to dismiss (or positively interpret) their bad actions, and in the case of feminism, the "natural" outsiders are the men.

YesAmAThrowaway · 2021-12-28T23:49:13+00:00

Reminds me of that book somebody wrote where she disguised herself as a man for one year and now sees the problems both genders have in a more balanced and... equal manner, having been able to experience both.

Distinguishing good and bad feminism is also incredibly difficult, because the people you agree with might turn around and say something about a different topic that you find absolutely abhorrent. It's a result of individual opinions and unavoidable, leading to much judgement.

Then there's also the power "bad feminists" hold and the way its been enacted in active legislature (paternal rights being removed in the UK is one example, after an equality minister argued that fathers are unnevessary to any family and told everybody to suck it), biases in criminal sentencing, arrests and other systemic areas.

reddut_gang · 2021-12-29T05:55:11+00:00

It's not our responsibility to fix the bad feminists, it's these self-proclaimed "good ones" to call them out and reject them from the movement. But they don't. At best, they let it slide, at worst they partake in the hate. But all of them agree with the hate, even if it's just a little. How can you not, when you are fed so much misinformation about how good men supposedly have it? It may come from a place of envy, it may come from a place of resentment, or bitterness, but it's there. And that's why I don't think this "good feminism" exists in any significant quantity. Even the best of them, the most reasonable and open-minded, still hold on to the misguided beliefs of male supremacy and the ever repetitive "oppressor vs oppressed" mentality. And through that misguidance comes hatred, and thus they are responsible for this hatred.

Enzi42 · 2021-12-29T12:43:16+00:00

This thread seems a little old, but I wanted to contribute since this is an excellent question and I have my own take on it that I hope the OP finds useful.

I should make a disclaimer that I am not in any way a feminist supporter/sympathizer unless you look at the basic dictionary definition of the word, but I am trying to give an unbiased answer based on experiences I've had with people who act the way you described, and the reasoning they have given.

The very simple answer to your question would be entitlement because, at the core of things, that's what it is.

But it is far more complex than that and these expectations of men--to be knowledgeable about feminism, discern the "good" aspects from the "bad" and then support those good aspects wholeheartedly--have deeper origins than mere arrogance and self-assurance of one's own righteousness.

A lot of people, whether through mockery or just good faith criticism, note the general sense of victimhood that feminists seem to carry with them. In many ways it seems built into the core of their ideology, that women are the victims of men in a myriad of ways that make their lives a nightmare at the hands of their oppressors. This translates into many malign attitudes towards men, but the attitude your question asks about is a specific one.

One of the side-effects of seeing men as an oppressor group is that you start to see all interactions with us as some form of exploitation. Even if those actions are objectively good, the oppressor/oppressed mindset will find some way to wring malice and ill-intent out of them.

This comes into play when it comes to teaching men about feminism. For all the feminists I have come across who wish men to adopt the ideology, I have definitely seen those who are appalled at the idea that they should even have to teach men about it. In their eyes, the idea of giving men instruction on feminism is an act of subservience...because they are providing a service to a man after all, and that puts them somehow in a servile role, reinforcing the oppression of women overall.

This attitude is what pushes the idea of teaching men about feminism beneath the "emotional labor" tent and drives people who think like this to demand those who may even be interested in actually learning to educate yourself, it's not my job!

From an objective standpoint I think it's actually a highly self-destructive way of looking at things. Not only does it obviously push people away and sour them on your ideological premise, but it also sets them loose to stumble into all sorts of aspects of your beliefs, and form conclusions you perhaps wish they hadn't. Pushing men away like that may actually create antifeminists. It's really kind of ridiculous, but I'm not in the habit of correcting an enemy when making a mistake.

I will concede that feminists are not the only movement to act like this and adopt this sort of mindset; I can think of at least one other who is just as guilty and it always makes me shake my head when people adopt this attitude, for the reasons I listed above.

Anyway, I hope this helped bring one more perspective as to why this expectation exists. I took my sources, as I mentioned, from interactions I have had with feminists over the years as well as a certain post on one of the feminist subreddits that actually tackled this exact topic. I just wanted to list those, so it doesn't look like I'm randomly guessing and psychoanalyzing.

hottake_toothache · 2021-12-29T15:08:26+00:00

Because placing the burden on women for ANYTHING is forbidden.

aerial_coitus · 2021-12-29T00:04:24+00:00

feminism isn’t about hating women

No. It’s about hating men. Deny it all you want but the facts speak for themselves. Feminists claim to be about equal rights for all but nobody gets mad about mens issues faster than feminists.

Cfox006 · 2021-12-30T17:31:54+00:00

Love it when feminists say “well they aren’t real feminists” without actually ever calling these people out because enabling these feminists makes them feel good

TheSnesLord · 2021-12-30T00:56:36+00:00

what "true" feminism is and ignore all the misandrists who might label themselves feminists.

The radical misandrist feminism is represented in government, politics, law, education, institutions, mainstream media, entertainment media, news outlets, news media, the workforce, Hollywood, Tech, etc. Basically this type of feminism has infested every corner of Western and European society.

Therefore that makes feminism a misandrist hate movement. Until I see the so-called "good" feminists step up, call out and stop the bad feminists then I will continue to see the entire feminist movement as a misandrist hate movement.

And don't give me the "oh but the good feminists get attacked by the bad feminists if they speak up" card, if the so-called "good" feminists and women united together and fought the bad feminists then the bad feminists would disappear in a week.

It's crystal clear that the "good" feminists and women are loving the rewards of what bad feminists has brought them. That's why you never see "good" feminists go against the bad ones. Both "good" and bad feminists have the same goals at the root, the only difference is that the "good" feminists are just quiet and polite.

Feminism and women in general are having a great time by taking advantage of the privileges granted to them; mocking, insulting and degrading men for giggles; and being smug and obnoxious about it.

jesset77 · 2021-12-29T21:09:32+00:00

Hateful feminist erasure by "good" feminists is approximately as helpful as bad/crooked cop erasure by "good" cops enforcing the infamous blue wall of silence.

TAwayLWMA1107 · 2021-12-31T12:08:52+00:00

Reminds me of a comments I saw a while back in regards to feminism. "Your movement’s image is not the public’s responsibility to uphold."

danielnogo · 2021-12-29T06:19:26+00:00

Truthfully, the only time feminist use the no true scottsman fallacy is when they are called out, if it weren't for critics of feminism, it would descend into a cacophony of insanity unchecked by anyone because the feminist community is so insanely toxic and if you go against the grain as a feminist you are quickly booted out of the community with prejudice. Just look at what happened to JK Rowling.

In the feminist community you are either eoxected to either contribute to the insanity, nod your head in agreement, no matter how insane or factually wrong the idea is, or stay silent, anything else is "denying the lived experience of oppressed womxn"

knightfluttershy · 2021-12-28T21:11:06+00:00

Feminism doesn’t exist, there are so many contradictory versions of it that it means nothing…

The_UndeadAngel · 2021-12-29T21:42:23+00:00

you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

despite what they say, they allow misandry to thrive because they let misandrists say what they want and behave however they want unchallenged by the very people who claim they fight against it, or...they say it doesn't exist, essentially gaslighting you.

RoryTate · 2021-12-30T17:17:50+00:00

If someone is working towards the same goals of a fair and just society, but doing it using a different framework and set of axioms, I don't understand why there should be so much focus on what a person calls themselves, unless the real truth is that the label is more important than the genuine desire to create a better world. I really think your friend betrays the fact that she is just as much part of the problem with the way the movement is perceived as the feminists who openly hate and vilify men. That unconscious bias against males doesn't surprise me though, since as a very smart woman once said (paraphrased):

"Feminists may or may not hate men, but feminism sure does have a nasty habit of naming everything bad in the world after men." – Karen Straughan

Man_of_culture_112 · 2021-12-29T02:14:43+00:00

An insightful post

AngoPower28 · 2021-12-29T05:13:35+00:00

brilliant post

TEL-CFC_boi · 2021-12-28T22:04:48+00:00

Well said! I do agree that feminism can be a force for good (Suffragettes and the second wave in the 60s had a good current), but it's as much a victim of misinformation and dogmatic nonsense as anything.
I also agree that it's ridiculous that the onus is on us to decide what is good and bad about feminism, especially since the moment we voice an opinion on the subject, we get shot down...hard. It's designed so that we can't win, we just have to sit down and shut up and take the wave of shit
Being a man at the moment is like treading a fine line, but you're treading it while blindfolded and a vast, yawning chasm sits either side of you (yes, I'm comically melodramatic, I know)

Zinziberruderalis · 2021-12-30T07:20:13+00:00

This particular notion hit me during an internet feud with someone who was deeply hurt that most men weren't feminists and that she was extremely tired of trying to explain to men that feminism isn't about hating women

That must be a new branch of feminism.

sneedchuckfuck · 2022-01-01T19:00:22+00:00

We have been fooled into falling for a trap by feminists. It's clear that the feminists who demand others to ignore the bad feminists, have no intention to wrestle with the bad feminists. They just want to dump that burden on us to deal with. And there's also the factor of feminism being seen as the "default". How many ignorant statement have we seen celebrities say about how "feminism is equality, and if you believe in equality, you are by definition a feminist"? This kind of social engineering taught from the culture at large is what led to this mess because people grow up thinking that feminism is the movement you should support if you want gender equality. This prevents people from even admitting (or if they do admit, they certainly downplay) the nasty rhetoric coming out of some feminists. It's a cultural blind spot. You can thank the mainstream media, celebrity culture, and social media for that.

Blauwpetje · 2022-01-02T13:01:23+00:00

Feminism is not about women deserving the same rights as men, but about not yet having them. This is nonsense and harmful, and in the long run must lead to misandry - for how can this inequality remain if not because of men perpetuating it? Always ignoring statistics like these: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/2020-update-for-every-100-girls-part-i/ About harassment: the narrative about that always degenerates into a motte-and-bailey, first coming up with examples of men really behaving rude, and then drawing the conclusion men should leave women alone under virtually all circumstances. So yes, in the years '10 I turned from a critical feminist into a staunch anti-feminist. And my advice would be: don't bother about 'good' feminism. On the other hand: avoid discussing 'feminism' when you can, discuss about their issues.

mushysandwich121 · 2022-01-10T01:33:37+00:00

Not universal - my partner doesn't like feminists. She's openly argued against me for Mens rights because she feels so many things are slanted towards women. I think her biggest issue is parental rights.

That's probably because her brothers ex partner argued fervently that he was a drug addled abuser when he is anything but. However She was tested positive for Meth and got to keep custody.

Things like that seem to annoy her a lot. To the point where sometimes I just have to be quiet and let her vent. I try to add some opposite pressure to the scales lol

Title	Why is the burden of knowing "good" from "bad" feminism placed solely on men?
Author	throwra_coolname209
Upvotes	245
Comments	87
Date	December 28, 2021 8:29 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/rqov9t/why_is_the_burden_of_knowing_good_from_bad/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/why-is-the-burden-of-knowing-good-from-bad.1090204 https://theredarchive.com/post/1090204

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