Why does The Left Keep Missing This About The Male Loneliness Problem?

lolthankstinder · 2023-03-08T00:13:20+00:00

I recently read Of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves. One of the issues he brings up is:

Third, it became clear to me that the problems of boys and men are structural in nature, rather than individual; but are rarely treated as such. The problem with men is typically framed as a problem of men. It is men who must be fixed, one man or boy at a time. This individualistic approach is wrong.

Reeves isn't talking about dating here, but I think this applies to SO many things nowadays, especially dating.

RockmanXX · 2023-03-08T00:48:46+00:00

Is it that hard to admit that maybe being lonely doesn't mean your automatically a bad person?

Yes, its very hard for people to admit that Men can suffer&struggle through no fault of their own. People will go on tirades about how empathetic, liberal, progressive, humanitarian etc etc they are BUT when it comes to men, their empathy vanishes and the conversation shifts to bootstrapping.

Why is being lonely always seen as being a perosnal moral failure on the man's part?

Remember that line about men treating women like trophies to be earned? This is what it is, they consider it a "failure" on your part because they believe that Women are Status Objects to be obtained. Ironically, these same people will talk about how objectifying women is horrible and yet they constantly objectify Women by treating them as Status Objects.

ChemistryFederal6387 · 2023-03-07T22:59:11+00:00

Society doesn't react well to men asking for help or support.

Men are where society gets support from, and resents a reversal of that flow at all times.

This is the empathy gap.

This is why men are considered disposable.

In particular any perceived request for support that would put a burden on women gets immediately attacked and reversed back onto the person asking for help, and men being lonely fits squarely into this category.

TisIChenoir · 2023-03-08T07:04:26+00:00

"men who don't have success are treating women like trophies, and that's why they don't have success" is a phrase that negates itself.

Because the men who treat women as trophies, and usually as pieces of meat to fuck, usually have the most success.

If objectifying women was the root-cause of lack of sexual success, players wouldn't exist.

bkrugby78 · 2023-03-08T03:26:43+00:00

"I've come across countless posts from men who are kind, compassionate, and genuinely good people that struggle with dating AND friends. Meanwhile I see guys in person that are truly deplorable with large friend groups and relationships. (Seriously go look at my post history in fox brain about my former conservative coworker)

How is it that some of the most racist, sexist, misogynistic people I've ever seen have large friend groups, girlfriends, wives, children, and community? Meanwhile some of the most intelligent and kind people I've ever met are perpetually single or struggle to make friends."

Some things don't have reasonable explanations. Control what you can, not what you can not. It is understandable to be frustrated by such things, but for some of us, bad things just happen to us and it's up to us how to deal with it.

Just today, it was after school, (I'm a High School teacher) and students were asking teachers to pose for pictures with them (Seniors). I never get asked and I never get notes of appreciation. I could let it bother me, (and it kinda does in some way) but the reality is that it is not that I am doing anything wrong, they just don't see me as someone who would be interested in that.

As for why the "Left" (though I am not sure exactly what you mean by this) doesn't care, It is probably because men's issues are not very useful to them.

ProfessionalPut6507 · 2023-03-08T07:22:30+00:00

All these posts have one answer: because they do not care. Just look at International Women's Day (current...) and International Men's Day -usually in men's day the narrative is how men can change to be better, not the issues they face (poor mental health - don't be afraid to seek help, for example), and it is all somehow turns out to be about women, anyhow.

Look at movies -even Disney movies, like Lightyear. (White) men are stupid, imperfect, and have to fundamentally become like the diverse females who gently help them to improve. It is always the men's fault, so why would anyone care about these self-inflicted issues?

Heck, look at incels. "The Left" has tremendous sympathy for Muslim fundamentalists, terrorists, saying that "we" fucked up their countries, and they have valid grievances, although the methods are unacceptable (which is kinda true, actually), but when it comes to incels, the reaction is universal derision and disdain. Anyone trying to help them improve meets the accusation of being alt-right and evil. (Peterson for example - I do not think it is a bad thing trying to make them understand how to become not-incels. It is not an original sin, and it would make women better off, too.). Somehow there are no mitigating circumstances there.

Maffioze · 2023-03-08T10:00:57+00:00

People see men having emotional needs as an absurd entitlement.

Sinity · 2023-03-08T13:30:49+00:00

they can't go five minutes without accusing you of only wanting sex, and they keep acting like if you're lonely it's your fault because you're consciously or unconsciously a bad person.

It's Just World Fallacy, maybe. Very good comment

I do think there are a lot of really kind, decent, shy, nerdy men who can't find anyone who will love them because they radiate submissiveness and non-assertiveness, and women don't find this attractive. Most women do find dominant, high-testosterone people attractive, and dominance and testosterone are risk factors for jerkishness, but not at all the same thing and women can't be blamed for liking people with these admittedly attractive characteristics.

There are also a lot of really kind, decent, shy, nerdy women who can't find anyone who will love them because they're not very pretty. Men can't be blamed for liking people they find attractive either, but this is also sad.

But although these two situations are both sad, at the risk of being preachy I will say one thing. When a girl is charming and kind but not so conventionally attractive, and men avoid her, and this makes her sad...well, imagine telling her that only ugly people would think that, and since she's ugly she doesn't deserve a man, and she probably just wants to use him for his money anyway because of course ugly women can't genuinely want love in the same way anyone else would (...that would be unfair!) This would be somewhere between bullying and full on emotional abuse, the sort of thing that would earn you a special place in Hell.

Whereas when men make the same complaint, that they are nice and compassionate but not so good at projecting dominance, there is a very large contingent of people, getting quite a lot of respect and validation from the parts of society that should know better, who immediately leap out to do their best to make them feel miserable - to tell that they don't deserve a relationship, that they're probably creeps who are only in it for the sex and that if they were a real man they'd stop whining about being "entitled to sex".

Author of the comment wrote this, which shows this unhinged reaction on a concrete example. Scott Aarson wrote a comment, explaining why he's "only 97% onboard feminism", describing his experiences when he was younger (now he has a wife, which makes the reaction even more nonsensical).

Some fragments:

I spent my formative years—basically, from the age of 12 until my mid-20s—feeling not “entitled,” not “privileged,” but terrified. I was terrified that one of my female classmates would somehow find out that I sexually desired her, and that the instant she did, I would be scorned, laughed at, called a creep and a weirdo, maybe even expelled from school or sent to prison.

My recurring fantasy, through this period, was to have been born a woman, or a gay man, or best of all, completely asexual, so that I could simply devote my life to math, like my hero Paul Erdös did. Anything, really, other than the curse of having been born a heterosexual male, which for me, meant being consumed by desires that one couldn’t act on or even admit without running the risk of becoming an objectifier or a stalker or a harasser or some other creature of the darkness.

Of course, I was smart enough to realize that maybe this was silly, maybe I was overanalyzing things. So I scoured the feminist literature for any statement to the effect that my fears were as silly as I hoped they were. But I didn’t find any. On the contrary: I found reams of text about how even the most ordinary male/female interactions are filled with “microaggressions,” and how even the most “enlightened” males—especially the most “enlightened” males, in fact—are filled with hidden entitlement and privilege and a propensity to sexual violence that could burst forth at any moment.

At one point, I actually begged a psychiatrist to prescribe drugs that would chemically castrate me (I had researched which ones), because a life of mathematical asceticism was the only future that I could imagine for myself. Now, the whole time I was struggling with this, I was also fighting a second battle: to maintain the liberal, enlightened, feminist ideals that I had held since childhood, against a powerful current pulling me away from them That I managed to climb out of the pit with my feminist beliefs mostly intact, you might call a triumph of abstract reason over experience. But I hope you now understand why I might feel “only” 97% on board with the program of feminism.

And, one of the responses (from a feminist blogger, Amanda Marcotte). I really don't get how could they misread things so badly.

[Aaronson’s post] is the whole “how can men be oppressed when I don’t get to have sex with all the hot women that I want without having to work for it?” whine, one that, amongst other things, starts on the assumption that women do not suffer things like social anxiety or rejection…It was just a yalp of entitlement combined with an aggressive unwillingness to accept that women are human beings just like men. [He is saying that] “having to explain my suffering to women when they should already be there, mopping my brow and offering me beers and blow jobs, is so tiresome…I was too busy JAQ-ing off, throwing tantrums, and making sure the chip on my shoulder was felt by everyone in the room to be bothered to do something like listen.” Women are failing him by not showing up naked in his bed, unbidden. Because bitches, yo.

The eternal struggle of the sexist: Objective reality suggests that women are people, but the heart wants to believe they are a robot army put here for sexual service and housework.

SpicyMarshmellow · 2023-03-08T20:50:17+00:00

I really have a problem with the constant accusation against men of being fixated on sex.

Yeah, platonic friendships are really important. But they are not a romantic relationship. Romantic relationships are not just about sex, but for most people, sex is an important component of a romantic relationship. Sex is not the only form of physical intimacy, but they are the form of physical intimacy that, for most people, is most distinctly associated with romantic relationships. And nobody denies that for people who are not aromantic or asexual, that romantic relationships and physical intimacy are important and normal things to want. But somehow when it's addressing men, this gets reduced to the tired old "men only want one thing" reductive bullshit. And it comes across as so incredibly mean-spirited and intellectually dishonest. And it's pretty universally only people who are not themselves lacking in romance and intimacy in their own lives who say this shit.

Especially when I witnessed so many women openly complain about, as they would call it, becoming "touch-starved" in 2020 in the midst of the pandemic lockdowns. And describe how it impacted their mental health and often made them behave like worse people and they were fully self-aware about this. And they'd receive all this sympathy and social support and understanding. But then these same people can turn right around and address men like this. It's frankly disgusting. Pretty clear-cut bigotry, imo. There's no other explanation.

househubbyintraining · 2023-03-08T03:22:54+00:00

The left and the right both propagate men as these super-human deities. On the left through demonization and on the right through cultural agrandizing. This leaves men's issues and humanity under the rug on both sides, only relevant to discourse when we need to toss them a bone. All this until boys start dying, that's when ppl snap out of their delusional mythologizing.

The left is having a harder time adopting men's issues because of the pathway they choose to deify men, in contrast to the right.

Blauwpetje · 2023-03-09T13:28:09+00:00

The idea that there are quite a few real good heterosexual men out there who’d love a partner but can’t get one would make a big dent in feminist ideology. It means that the women with violent or even too dominant male partners simply may have made the wrong choices, or let the initiative come too much from men, so that bad relationships aren’t really patriarchy’s fault. The accusation ‘you only want sex’ is full of double standards, even if it would be true. At the same time feminists defend the right of women to be as horny and promiscuous as they want.

Yugoscrim · 2023-03-10T13:54:32+00:00

I opened about the bullying and ostracizing I face in my department at school. I'm told that it's my fault because I did something to piss everyone off and I must be an asshole."

I'm glad that you brought this up, OP, because it's absolutely wild how prevalent this sort of thinking is. And what's even weirder is that it's ONLY applied to men.

People love telling men "If everyone is an asshole to you, you're the asshole!" but will in the same breath claim that (*insert whatever group they politically benefit from protecting, but usually women*) have been terribly victimized throughout their lives and how it's the fault of society.

I mean... where is the consistency?

Skirt_Douglas · 2023-03-10T18:22:44+00:00

Also a good discussion, but lost 90% of my respect when he brought it back to “It’s because of the patriarchy and the patriarchy hurts men too.”

Sinity · 2023-03-07T23:28:05+00:00

I haven't watched the video yet. I'll watch it later.

Loneliness is a lack of intimacy. You can be surrounded by lots of people and still feel lonely if those people are toxic. For example, being in a relationship with a narcissist or psychopath can cause loneliness.

Redpill asshats

Redpill is about being realistic. Bluepill is being idealistic. Blackpill is bitter and misogynistic. It seems like people on Reddit confuse blackpill and redpill. Those are subjective labels anyway.

nobody knows what they're doing in the first place when it comes to dating.

I disagree, there are definitely men who know what they're doing.

Being lonely keeps being seen as some sort of character flaw. Everytime I (or any other man opens up about being lonely on reddit (or really anywhere) we're told it's our faults.

Yes, because men are given hyperagency. It's gonna take awhile before society removes this bias against men.

zaph239 · 2023-09-10T19:55:52+00:00

With all that out of the way, this is the issue I keep running into with people who claim they want to help: they can't go five minutes without accusing you of only wanting sex, and they keep acting like if you're lonely it's your fault because you're consciously or unconsciously a bad person.

Let's start with the only wanting sex thing. Towards the end of the video he goes on to talk about how men treat women like trophies to be earned and that's why they aren't having success and that they should instead focus on finding a hobby and improving their inner selves.

There is so much to unpack.

First is the fact the left use to be pro-sexual liberation and opposed to conservative/religious types that saw sex, sexual attraction and enjoying sex as a sin.

Now we have a bizarre situation in which the modern left is pro-sex for hetrosexual women and gay/men women. However if a straight guy admits he actually likes and enjoys sex, he is a creep and a pervert.

Have the modern left got any idea how much damage this regressive and frankly idiotic attitude is doing to their movement?

As Orwell said, the problem with socialism isn't socialism it is socialists.

Also, is this guy really arguing that men who treat women like trophies and objects never succeed with women? He must live a very sheltered life.

My problem with the hobby part is that it doesn't take into account men that genuinely want friendships with all sexes. Plenty of guys (myself included) want platonic relationships just as much as romantic ones but are unable to get and keep them. In my personal life I took reddits/the internets advice to heart and focused on my friendships and hobbies. Slowly over time I've watched as my friends got into relationships or starting pursuing different careers and over time distanced themselves from me. To be blunt, hobbies are just not a replacement for face to face socializing,

as not all hobbies are social and not everyone at a meetup or hobby is looking to make friends.

You're right and that has been my experience as well. It is all very well condemning men for wanting more than platonic friendships but the reality is, friendship is very much a second class relationship for women.

A relationship she will drop in a heartbeat if it becomes inconvenient.

Input_output_error · 2023-03-08T09:53:38+00:00

I've come across countless posts from men who are kind, compassionate, and genuinely good people that struggle with dating AND friends. Meanwhile I see guys in person that are truly deplorable with large friend groups and relationships.

The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. You most not confuse what you would deem a friendship with what some 'deplorable' people deem a friendship. Some people have a large amount of people that they know/interact with on very shallow terms while others will have more of a friendship 'relation' kind of thing going on. Those are just two ends of a spectrum though and while some do fit into one of the extremes, most are somewhere in between with a combination of both.

It is relatively easy to get to know people on a shallow level, just going out into crowded places on a regular would accomplish that. Getting a 'friend for life' kind of thing is a whole different story it takes time and it takes a lot effort from both sides. Even in a 'friend for life' situation there will be times that this friend is unavailable for a period of time. This can vary from a day to years, people have their own lives too and they can get caught up in them every now and again. If you hold this against them then you're not being a very good friend.

BKEnjoyer · 2023-03-09T02:33:28+00:00

I feel the same way as you, I think I’ve been maligned due to people seeing me as flawed for being lonely and struggling with social connections. That’s really how my Title IX started and why I don’t think people like me and all that. Like I don’t want to sound entitled but we as humans are social animals and need others to live life and be happy, is that too much to ask?

zaph239 · 2023-09-10T19:58:48+00:00

Why is being lonely always seen as being a perosnal moral failure on the man's part? When a woman says she's lonely people tell her how sweet she is, how smart she is, and how one day she'll have friends and a relationship (if she's single).

If a man is lonely he's told that he's probably a sexist, racist, predator jackass that needs 1 billion hours of therapy, ten thousand different hobbies and that he doesn't deserve to socialize because he's actually a bad person and he should just be alone because he's a pervert.

Is it that hard to admit that maybe being lonely doesn't mean your automatically a bad person?

The video would have been 5/5 instead of 4/5 if he would have just stopped at "just be your best self and don't give up."

It is the old undeserving poor argument, a way of dismissing people in poverty. Something you want think people who describe themselves as leftwing would be able to spot.

The reason why male loneliness is dismissed is it blows a hole in the side of feminism. If men can be condemn to a life of loneliness for being ugly, short, shy, social awkward or autistic. They are hardly the patriarchal oppressors feminists claim they are.

ChemistryFederal6387 · 2024-10-19T03:48:58+00:00

Sigh. I know not a helpful response but I find discussions around this in leftwing circles so frustrating. The left has had a problem with free expression and a tendency to reach for the censorship button. When it comes to male loneliness, an honest discussion is virtually impossible but I will try and contribute to one.

The first big problem with the modern left, is how anti-sex they are or at least anti-sex when it comes to straight men. This is bizarre when you consider the fact that the left are the champions of gay rights and the right for gay people to express their sexuality without censor. They are also the movement that champions the sexual freedom of women. From abortion rights, to condemning slut shaming.

Yet when it comes to straight men, the left turn into judgemental religious types. Condemning straight men for wanting sex, calling their desire for women creepy and objectifying. I'm sorry but if you want to know why so many men are turning away from the left, the answer is in the left turning into judgemental prudes.

The reality is, sex drives are natural, sexual desires are natural and suppressing them is a bad idea. The old left and liberals use to understand this.

What does this have to do with male loneliness? Any attempt to deal with male loneliness that doesn't listen to lonely men when it comes to their desires for a sexual relationship is doomed. The left offers men nothing when it comes to this issue. It instead condemns lonely men who have sex drives as toxic and acts if such men should be somehow programmed not to desire women.

Before we get out another tired old trope. No this isn't men being entitled to sex, it is men wanting to talk about their problems without brutal judgement and being condemned as toxic creeps.

As the OP has pointed out, trying to deal with loneliness while ignoring women and sexual relationships is futile. Sexual relationships are the way most adult socialise. Most adults are in couples, they get married, they have children. Adult men locked out of that find it very hard to socialise, especially as they get older.

Sure men can go to meetup groups, play sports and pursue hobbies. However the brutal reality is, a guy in a relationship, who has kids. Is not going to have much time for his single friends.

I am also going to break another taboo here and say that lonely men want to socialise in a way that has the possibility of meeting single women and perhaps leading to a relationship. I know how very toxic and entitled of them.

The problem is too many meetup groups and other such ways of breaking out of loneliness can feel like being prematurely old. They are places for pensioners, a depressing place for younger men to end up.

I will probably downvoted to oblivion, assuming this post survives and that is my final point.

The left is loosing because it thinks it can use a 1984 style thought police to win. It can censor its way to victory and it isn't working.

SoMuchForSubtleties · 2023-03-11T07:07:31+00:00

I think I agree with the thrust of your post - society is always inclined to put the blame & onus on men - but a few comments:

How is it that some of the most racist, sexist, misogynistic people I've ever seen have large friend groups, girlfriends, wives, children, and community? Meanwhile some of the most intelligent and kind people I've ever met are perpetually single or struggle to make friends.

Here's the real black pill: It's confidence all the way down. Why do women like "bad boys"? It's confidence. Why do women like fuckboys? It's confidence. Why do terrible people have large friend groups? It's confidence.

Everything else - hobbies, looks, personality (aside from confidence) - is ancillary. Confidence is a double-whammy trait. First, it's probably the single most attractive trait for anyone to have (not just, but especially men). It signals so many green flags about a person it's not even funny. Second, if you're confident you're not afraid to go for it, fuck up, and learn. So it's a virtuous cycle. Be confident naturally, fuck up early, learn, be more successful later on, become more confident, be more willing to fuck up, learn... In addition, while social situations & dating are not a pure numbers game, there is an element of that, and confident people will find those who vibe with them so much faster.

Title	Why does The Left Keep Missing This About The Male Loneliness Problem?
Author	Awesometjgreen
Upvotes	151
Comments	82
Date	March 7, 2023 3:21 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/11knm0h/why_does_the_left_keep_missing_this_about_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/why-does-the-left-keep-missing-this-about-the-male.1173292 https://theredarchive.com/post/1173292

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