If you're pro-choice due to bodily autonomy, you can't demand paternal child-support, or object to child neglect

Mrs_Drgree · 2021-03-06T13:15:37+00:00

Removed for off topic. Please feel free to repost this in the abortion mega thread.

flapperfemmefatale · 2021-03-06T07:30:01+00:00

I fully support men signing away parental rights, provided it is permanent (if you change your mind later, you owe everything you should have been paying) and done so early enough that it allows the woman to decide whether or not to abort based on his choice.
Children can be taken away from neglectful parents. Parents also have the ability to willingly give their children up if they no longer want them. If they aren't doing that, neglect is a purposeful choice done (I assume) because they want the child to suffer.

IHaveABigDuvet · 2021-03-06T05:39:53+00:00

"Body autonomy is the right for a person to govern what happens to their body without external influence or coercion."

Once the sperm leaves a person body, then you can argue that its not part of your body anymore. Even more so when that sperm joins with an egg and becomes a foetus. It technically is no longer a sperm, but something else*.

If that sperm is still apart of your body, then you have full control over what you do with it (ie allow it to be ejaculated into someone without a condom**).

Bodily autonomy has Terms & Conditions, itdoesn't negate responsibility. I have the bodily autonomy to punch a dude in the head. Yet I also have used my bodily autonomy to abide by the rules of the society I live in, meaning that punching a dude means I might be handcuffed and detained; which of course affects my bodily autonomy.

The coercison part of this definition is important. When a person considers their autonomy, they ought to also consider the consequences on their choices***. So if a man decides to raw dog, then he needs to understand the consequences of this may be pregnancy, and under law, the termination of said pregnancy would not be his choice.

Lastly, re labour, resources and bodily autonomy. (I flat out disagree with your extrapolations - the same argunent could be made about taxes - but I feel there a more important point to make here.)

If we circle back to the analogy about my use of bodily autonomy to punch someone in the face, we can see that not all body autonomy is equal. Using my autonomy to assualt someone should not be put over someone elses bodily autonomy to not be assualted.

A sperm donors' autonomy for the cells he produced that contributed to the foetus, should not be put over the autonomy of the person who produced the egg, has the foetus attached to their inner uterine lining, and is having their physiology altered due to the growing of the foetus into a human being.

And as for the child neglect; the autonomy of a sperm donor that was so neglectful as to not use a condom should not be put over that of a human being (a child at that), and the resources they need to have a quality of life, and their human rights (and bodily autonomy) not infringed.

If a person knowing has sex with someone without protection, and he knows where babies come from, then in my opinion he is using his bodily autonomy as defined; with the complete understanding that an unwanted pregnancy were to ensue, it would lead to fatherhood / other parenting responsibilities as defined by the country in which he is a citizen of.

*There is a wider conversation about if a foetus is apart of their hosts body, and when that foetus is its own living entity, but by this stage there are now three entities of which bodily autonomy needs to be considered.

** A wider conversation about contraception tampering can be had here. In these cases I definately think that the autonomy of the sperm producer needs to be considered if sperm was obtained fraudulently. We could also talk about if that also includes being deceived about contraception use, however the conversion becomes more complicated it a contraception was incorrectly used, unintentionally.

*** We could talk about unjust laws and human rights infringements here too.

Tldr; wrap your bodily autonomy in a condom.

punsandprose · 2021-03-06T05:02:37+00:00

The key word is bodily autonomy, this is true for both men and women, but your argument is equating women's bodily autonomy to men's financial autonomy. That's apples vs oranges

She has the bodily autonomy to have an abortion, meaning her body her choice. She has that freedom. But she has to face whatever consequences come from that.

He has the bodily autonomy to have sex freely, without a condom or other reliable pregnancy prevention on his end. (These are largely how these deadbeat dads are, they don't care about consequences just pleasure)

He has that freedom. But he has to face whatever consequences come from that.

Freedom is a right, and you have it, but the child's freedom and opportunities are directly a result of the parents actions. You cannot take away a child's freedom just because you do not like the consequences of your actions.

geyejoe7 · 2021-03-06T07:04:01+00:00

"If you can murder him, I can at least abandon him."

~ Dave Chappelle

deathbecomesme123456 · 2021-03-06T04:49:20+00:00

This again?

U.S. Census Figures from 2015:

$33.7 billion dollars in child support was owed during the year 2015

The average amount of child support due was $5,760 per year. That's less than $500 per month.

Only 60% of that money—an average of $3,447 per year—was actually received

On average, custodial single parents who receive child support get about $287 per month to help with food, shelter, clothing, medical costs, education, and incidentals.

Many men are already delinquent on child support. Existing child support orders are woefully low. Why are men always complaining about child support for their own children??

Even I could find an $500/month. What a bunch of deadbeats.

AreOut · 2021-03-06T08:51:17+00:00

Our civilization is based on sacrifice. The marriage is sacrifice. Kids are sacrifice. All of us including prochoice folks had a grandgrandgrand...mother who wouldn't have had a child if she had not to, and if she had a choice - the prochoice person wouldn't be here to argue about it. Thus, supporting prochoice is hypocritical by definition after you have come to see the light of the day as a result of your ancestors not having that choice.

RandomUsernameSkrrrt · 2021-03-06T04:46:36+00:00

If men could get pregnant there would be no pro choice vs pro life arguments bc the pro choice narrative would be the only acceptable one. Nature has placed the burden of life bearing on women, there is no equivalence to men. I don’t care about men’s rights surrounding abortion since they do not have any of the negative effects of this biological burden. When men start advocating for condom use, or at the very least, make sure they always use them OR not pressure women into not using them, then I will maybe start taking male voices on this conversation seriously. But when men repeatedly prove that they do not want even the slightest responsibility for it, when they do not undertake the most basic form of protection for themselves to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, they do not have my sympathy nor do I value any thing they have to say on the topic.

poppy_blu · 2021-03-06T06:16:56+00:00

By “Pro choice due to bodily autonomy” do you mean the rights of the living person Trump the rights of the not yet living person? Or do you mean the right of women not have a bunch of male lawmakers telling her what she can and can’t do with her body?

If is the former, your analogy doesn’t make sense. No ones paying child support to a fetus.

If it’s the latter and your analogy is that a bunch of lawmakers telling a man he has to pay child support is telling him what he can and can’t do with his body (metaphorically), sure. For that matter telling a woman she’s responsible for caring for this kid is also an overreach. Fuck it. Let’s just drop off all newborns at the orphanage and let the nuns raise them.

Also I’m going to assume that all the men here who vehemently argue for men having zero responsibility for preventing pregnancy or caring for their offspring must also support the courts favoring women in custody disputes.

synosphrene · 2021-03-06T08:13:00+00:00

This is why I want a vasectomy, it's freedom from slavery to potential unwanted support payments .

Uesugi1989 · 2021-03-06T06:50:04+00:00

Her body her choice, obviously.

These are the scenarios:

both parents want the kid? Great, let then have it
woman doesn't want the kid? She can have an abortion. Wether the man wants it or not is irrelevant
woman wants it and the man doesn't? She can have the kid but he shouldn't have any parental responsibility.

No one can force a woman to become a parent and take care for a child she doesn't want. The same premise must be applied to men as well, anything else is just blatant sexism

Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 · 2021-03-06T05:04:20+00:00

Yea it's called self preservation.

socialtrinitarian · 2021-03-06T09:30:16+00:00

Historically, this was more or less how it worked. Ancient societies were consistent in this regard - infants could be abandoned at will.

Modern society wants to have its cake and eat it - to have Christian humanist assumptions applied inconsistently. Ethicists have been saying for decades that the same arguments used to justify abortion also justify infanticide. Noone wants to listen to them it seems.

2021-03-06T10:18:16+00:00

Ok, but how will we sanction guys who want a baby and then opt out? Will this be considered a fraud? Will they be subjected to vasectomy to avoid further frauds?

yayayubsea · 2021-03-06T12:45:20+00:00

As soon as you have unprotected sex and a woman gets pregnant, as man do you not think to yourself, “damn I hope she gets her period cause I just busted in her” ? Why do men raw dog women and act fucking shocked when they get pregnant? Take a fucking health course dickhead. Also, as soon as you nut and the baby is conceived, the only person who’s life doesn’t change is the man. Just because abortion is an option doesn’t mean every woman is willing to do it. You busted a nut in someone, so in that moment you’re accepting responsibility whether you like it or not. How about instead of blaming each gender we focus on EVERYONE knowing the risks of unprotected sex. Men if you ever asked a woman for an abortion, also think if you asked her if she was on birth control, and if you made sure to wear a condom.

back_againx13 · 2021-03-06T05:00:37+00:00

I strongly disagree with you. There isn't a correlation between gestating a fetus and having a job; I'm not saying one is harder or worse than the other, I'm just saying that those two things are so different that a comparison isn't possible. Gestating and giving birth to a fetus is much more invasive than having a career and paying child support; having a career is a much longer proposition and it also requires sacrifice and dedication. Gestating a fetus only takes 9 months, but it takes 24/7 effort, whereas a typical job only lasts 8-hours a day. I understand the point that you're trying to make, but the comparison doesn't work for me.

Related to child support, however, I think that the family court system has some opportunities to further gender equality by making things more equitable for fathers.

RandomUsernameSkrrrt · 2021-03-06T09:45:17+00:00

The top pro-choice argument I encounter is: no one is obligated to sacrifice biological resources for another person, even if it means the death of that other person.

Yeah the entirety of your argument is a non-starter if this is your understanding of being pro-choice.

Point 1 of being pro-choice is that a fetus is not yet a "person," and that abortion should only be admissible in later stages when it becomes "person vs. person" (ie., life-risking situations).

Point 2 of pro-choice is that nobody is obligated to sacrifice biological resources for another person especially if it is believed that person's quality of life will be low.

Anyway, let's assume we ignore these and just buy your synopsis.

Money represents labor.

Wrong. Money is merely a means by which to trade goods and services as an intermediary. That may be by means of labor, time, property, blood, semen, bath water, digital promotions... anything.

Labor represents biological resources.

Also wrong. Bitcoin mining, for example, is a form of "labour" that produces value without any biological investment.

This is why indentured servitude has been an acceptable substitute for money throughout the ages.

That's not at all why indentured servitude has been acceptable.

Not only are they exempt from paying child-support, they're allowed to kill their children through neglect.

See my point about "personhood."

Hoopy223 · 2021-03-06T05:32:03+00:00

Child Support is becoming rather outdated considering male/female incomes and employment rates I’ll give you that much.

Cybercunt2069 · 2021-03-06T08:21:56+00:00

Couldn't care less about abortions. Just not from my wallet. If you do it because you feel like it and there's no health issues, then pay for it like for any other cosmetic surgery.

mimblezimble · 2021-03-06T05:21:13+00:00

A woman must be duly under contract in order to give birth to a child that will be attributed to the male counter-party of the contract ("the husband").

If we allow women to claim child support for illegitimate offspring, we would effectively be encouraging illegitimacy ("Zina"):

https://www.islamweb.org/en/fatwa/413467/an-illegitimate-child-is-not-traced-to-the-adulterer

An illegitimate child is not attributable to the male perpetrator of Zina; rather, he is attributed to his mother. So he is not to be traced back to you, and you are not obliged to provide for him.

With a view on discouraging illegitimacy, Islamic law insists that the mother of an illegitimate child cannot benefit or otherwise claim assistance from the biological father of the child.

The misbehaviour is hers and therefore the consequences are effectively her problem.

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Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 · 2021-03-06T04:38:23+00:00

Give it away .....

2021-03-06T10:38:50+00:00

Under any philosophy men and women are obligated to invest financial resources in there offspring.

Full_Cod_539 · 2021-03-06T14:21:34+00:00

Why do pro lifers continue to argue that they know when life begins and equate a zygote with a person? This confuses their religious beliefs with scientific facts.

Do some serious research, the subject is by no means scientifically settled by science:

https://www.swarthmore.edu/news-events/when-does-personhood-begin

Flightlessbirbz · 2021-03-06T14:53:56+00:00

I think you’re seriously misunderstanding what “bodily autonomy” means. As soon as that baby exits a woman’s body, it has nothing to do with either parent’s bodily autonomy. The often inconvenient fact is, bodily autonomy doesn’t mean we can just do or not do whatever we want. If that were the case, we could walk into a store and steal something, walk out of jail, not pay our taxes, ignore a lawsuit, and just generally never have any consequences for our actions.

When it comes to kids, your bodily autonomy ends when the sperm leaves your body. A woman’s continues for the next several months only due to anatomy differences making her the carrier. If men got pregnant, they too would have this extended autonomy.

Quite frankly, I do not like abortion. I’m not morally comfortable with how some have tried to frame it as “no big deal.” It’s not birth control and shouldn’t be regarded as such. But it does fall under bodily autonomy because you can’t force someone to sustain another life with their own body any more than you can force someone to donate a kidney or something.

As far as men go, I do believe a man should have the right to demand a paternity test before paying child support. I’m also on the fence about some type of opt-out program in certain situations. But most important, if you’re so concerned about being on the hook for child support FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WRAP IT UP! Why do so many men trust some random woman to worry about birth control?! Yikes.

Title	If you're pro-choice due to bodily autonomy, you can't demand paternal child-support, or object to child neglect
Author	RandomUsernameSkrrrt
Upvotes	17
Comments	205
Date	March 6, 2021 4:36 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/lyu3rp/if_youre_prochoice_due_to_bodily_autonomy_you/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/if-youre-pro-choice-due-to-bodily-autonomy-you.1191479 https://theredarchive.com/post/1191479

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