Women were not more traditional or less hypergamous in the past.

Cool_Relative7359 · 2023-10-31T08:58:45+00:00

No mammal's behavior can truly be studied in captivity. That includes humans. Before women could get their own resources, their own bank accounts, property, etc, they were in captivity.

AidsVictim · 2023-10-31T08:30:04+00:00

One idea that runs rampant among men on this subreddit is that women in the past were more traditional and less hypergamous but this is completely false.

I'm not sure how far back we're considering the "past" here but it's demonstrably true they were more traditional in both actions and views. Majority were virgins or at least very low N count at marriage, married younger, were focused on raising families, had negative views on abortion etc. I have no idea why people believe all this stuff doesn't matter or there's some vague idea that it's "fake" because the ultimate truth of modern liberalism hadn't arrived yet.

Those women had to rely on a man or a husband for their survival so their "traditionalism" was more forced than freely selected.

Sort of. Ideology is and always has been to a degree a product of material constraints, not something freely selected from the ether. It's not as if people living now aren't doing so under the most sophisticated propaganda complex and indoctrination system to ever exist. You would see a lot womens attitudes change quite quickly if the vast material surplus that enables modern social conditions collapsed simply because it no longer make sense under those new material conditions, or if the media ideology suddenly shifted to become sexually conservative, or whatever sort of shift in conditions.

Women in the past either had to work low paying jobs with no advancement

That describes 90%+ of workers for the vast majority of history men or women.

and suffer daily sexual harassment or rely upon a man they were more than likely not physically attracted to or in love with for their provision.

Women were also heavily shamed by society for even having sexual thoughts and were demonized when they expressed their sexuality in any way

There's a degree of truth here which makes the exaggeration easier to swallow for certain types.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no genuine traditionalism without the freedom of choice. If women are dependent on men for their survival or if their sexuality is ostracized by society in large, they will conform to the status quo. So it doesn't matter if you are a tradcon, Christian, Muslim or a Passport Bro, if you are choosing women who are from lower socioeconomic backgrounds or repressive societies that restrict women's rights, you are not getting genuine traditionalism and submissivenes from women. Those are my thoughts on this, what are yours?

Taking your premise seriously I'd just say there's no such thing as "true" traditionalism - it never existed in the past because of material and social constraints, nor could I even define what traditionalism is supposed to be in the context of wealthy modern societies. The only way to achieve it appears to be "be sexually attractive enough for women to pick you and assume they vote Republican" or something which I don't find very enlightening.

But mostly this is an ideologically motivated backwards projection across all of history where everything up to the emergence of "the now" (liberal capitalism) existed only as a false consciousness pre cursor, which is certainly a convenient way for modern people to view themselves (alternatively it might be viewed as narcissistic and naive)

RIPGeorgeHarrison · 2023-10-31T02:34:14+00:00

Correct on all counts. At least now we can get a credit card in our own name, not get fired just for getting pregnant (although I’m sure they find a way if they can), serve on a jury, have a legal standing wrt marital rape, have access to the birth control pill and be able have some control over pregnancy. Ah, yes, the “good old days”! The types that want us to go back in time a mere 60 years ago when they had all of the control over women. That’s what they want.

controllrevival · 2023-10-31T06:20:21+00:00

This is a good post. As a man, I agree , honestly.

Willow-girl · 2023-10-31T03:25:21+00:00

Women back in the day were ruthless.

WilliamWyattD · 2023-10-31T09:03:36+00:00

Evaluating the past is tough. Freedom itself is a complex concept. Freedom from what? Are women only TRULY free now because they not only have equal economic and political status, but they have the technology to control their reproductive functions? Do women need contraception and abortion--freedom from their biology--to be free?

Furthermore, the idea that we are now in a free and natural state is somewhat ludicrous. What is natural and free about being enslaved by our smartphones as we doomscroll the day away?

I am not a biological essentialist. Sociological and environmental factors have a huge impact on human sexuality as well. Just because women may not have been equal to men, or did not choose certain things, does not mean those things did not impact the individual woman psychologically. No doubt many women felt the need to marry, even if they could not find a husband they were attracted to. But it isn't as if all women were unattracted to their husbands either. I bet the psychology of women 1000 years ago, including aspects of their sexuality, was different.

abaxeron · 2023-10-31T09:14:58+00:00

Those are my thoughts on this, what are yours?

My thoughts on this is that any depiction of history which basically boils down to "your grandpa was a creep and probably a rapist" is false. My only deserved response is "no, my grandpa fought against Nazis and then spent a decade in concentration camp; your story is full of shit, and I don't want you anywhere near my face anymore. You are shitting on my deceased relative. Better piss off, before you piss me off."

I'm seriously getting sick and tired of these myths and legends brought up as a "shut-up card". I've seen people here saying that women did not have rights basically until 20 years ago. Which was 2003, two years after 9/11. I've seen at least three people here independently claiming that in the US marital rape was legal until the late 1990s. Someone at one point said that women had no RRRREEEAAAALLL career opportunities until roughly 2014.

Meanwhile, back in reality, outside of delusional fantasies of neurotics that need to justify their thirst for thrills and adventure against the great injustice, women of the US were running for president and running Ponzi schemes since the 1870s, at least. But all I hear is another rambling about "Well you can't deny..." YES I CAN. It's not men's problem that women decided to run Ponzi schemes instead of running an honest banking business like normal people.

RonMexico432 · 2023-10-31T03:33:13+00:00

Women want what they've always wanted. But guys aren't raised to be men anymore, so we get non-traditional women and guys that want a traditional partner, and that math doesn't work.

Proudvow · 2023-10-31T04:43:08+00:00

It doesn't matter if they were equally hypergamous, simply due to how society was structured more men satisfied hypergamous standards. They were higher status than their female equivalents in every way, had far more money and property, were significantly stronger (due to the prevalence of physical labor), etc. These dynamics made it easy for men willing to try to genuinely attract women.

Now men and women are equal and yet women are still hypergamous. Which shifts the focus from traits all men could achieve to traits only select men can achieve.

f1vepointoh · 2023-10-31T03:11:25+00:00

Who cares? It's like you would rather somebody give you a million dollars or would you rather earn it.... most dont give a fuck just want the million dollars lol.

SecondEldenLord · 2023-10-31T02:05:54+00:00

They were a hell lot more traditional back then: less body count, better cooks and cleaners, had higher respect for men. Not sure what you are talking about.

Independent-Mail-227 · 2023-10-31T02:10:37+00:00

this is completely false.

was more forced than freely selected

Forced or not they were. So your post is already a falsehood.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no genuine traditionalism without the freedom of choice.

You're ignoring the fact that women have the risks of their sexuality backed by the state, the reason why there's freedom of choice and not traditionalism is because the state is backing it up, forcing men to pay for child care, forcing men taxes to pay for single motherhood, forcing men taxes to fund female affirmative action.

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januaryphilosopher · 2023-10-31T07:17:11+00:00

We really are moving further and further away from the definition of "traditional" if it makes any sense at all to say nobody was traditional in the past. As such, it'd be helpful if you outlined what being "genuinely traditional" means to you, as it won't be anything you'd find in the dictionary.

Old_Speed_7861 · 2023-11-01T03:46:23+00:00

U sure that women needed up with men who they did not like? Cause women always chose the best looking men with the best job

BigEdsBun · 2023-11-05T20:49:19+00:00

I find it strange to be agreeing with you because I've seen comments from you in the past that said things quite different to this. Iirc, a correction between 'femininity' and 'submissiveness/docility/the desire to be a housewife' as if these things were 'natural' to women.

But I agree completely here. The rigid definition of 'feminine' was designed and maintained in a culture (laws, church and society/media) where men had most of the tangible power, and so it is 'nurture', the complete opposite of 'nature'.

Title	Women were not more traditional or less hypergamous in the past.
Author	Wide-Illustrator2906
Upvotes	31
Comments	144
Date	October 30, 2023 11:46 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/17k7d6a/women_were_not_more_traditional_or_less/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/women-were-not-more-traditional-or-less.1236927 https://theredarchive.com/post/1236927

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