Do any other “non-masculine” men also struggle with a lack of acceptance?

GodlessPerson · 2024-05-05T19:35:33+00:00

It's not a coincidence that a few years after men were told to "open up" and be more emotional, we suddenly see a surge in the usage of the expressions "mansplain", "emotional labour", and "trauma dumping" and in women complaining about acting like therapists to their boyfriends. They never wanted men to truly open up, they just wanted to use it against us. The better things get, the more they act like they are getting worse.

thereslcjg2000 · 2024-05-05T21:33:51+00:00

I know what you mean. I’d say I’m masculine in some ways, feminine in other ways, and just difficult to categorize in general. Regardless though, there’s been a massive shift in the dominant feminist perspective to men in the last five years. Granted, I’d argue the substance of their perspectives is largely the same, but they seem much less interested in wrapping it up in pretty packaging than they did before.

In the 2010s the stereotype of feminism by anti feminists and critics was largely that they demonized masculinity and only wanted men to be feminine, highly emotional beings. The only men’s issue they were comfortable discussing was men not being allowed to open up about their feelings. All the stuff about emotional labor and trauma dumping existed, but it didn’t usually come out until they were argued into a double bind and forced to confront their hypocrisy.

By contrast, it feels like in the 2020s feminists have largely come to embrace masculinity to conservative degrees. Whereas in the 2010s it sometimes seemed like they didn’t believe a form of positive masculinity existed, nowadays it seems like they love the idea of positive masculinity - i.e. archaic gender roles for men but without the expectation of reward that they used to carry. They’ve largely abandoned their “it’s okay for men to cry” angle; it’s honestly kind of fascinating just how quickly the dominant feminist narrative went from “men don’t express their emotions enough” to “men express their emotions too much.” Whenever I see a social media post about how men are taught to be emotionally repressed compared to women, it’s always feminists in the comments who argue that men aren’t actually taught to be emotionless and actually women have it harder in that realm - which is fascinating, given that only five years ago the former narrative seemed to be tied to feminism in public perception.

It’s kind of remarkable. I remember in the early days of this sub, statements like “feminists love the parts of masculinity that benefit them,” “feminists only want men to open up to therapists, they still want men to be stoic in day to day life,” etc. were speculations made by people here that at best were seen as theories and at worst as conspiracies. Now I see a lot of Reddit feminists openly saying those sorts of things. It seems like the movement really has started saying the quiet part out loud in recent years.

HyakuBikki · 2024-05-05T20:40:08+00:00

Being a non masculine male is utterly depressing, especially if you're cursed with having a small dick and stunted height. There's no place for people like us when both the right and left despise us.

Fantastic-Secret-744 · 2024-05-05T19:42:55+00:00

I'm a feminist and I'm so annoyed with the direction that feminism has taken. I really don't understand how we can be against gender roles for women but not have anything to say on the recent widespread trend of expecting men to be masculine and be a 'provider'. I want it to be: you are born, you can be who you are aslong as it is pro-social. I used to say feminism was equality for everyone but don't think I can call it that any more. Now I say I'm a feminist because I advocate for women (and it needs to be heavily more reflected upon it's modern form) and I want to also advocate for men. But I don't think they currently come under the same umbrella, which I'm sad about! Current feminism has done a good job of alienating people who once supported it and could feel like they fitted in.

BKEnjoyerV2 · 2024-05-05T20:32:58+00:00

I have not felt that I fit in really anywhere or with many people. Feeling not traditionally masculine isn’t the only reasoning behind it but it’s a strong factor. I was really socially stupid and sensitive and I think I was looked down upon for it, but I was also very aloof and in my own world.

I tried being really sensitive and open about my emotions but I think I manipulated people too much and didn’t understand socializing and putting effort into things, I was consumed by fantasy and avoiding things that were difficult for me. And I think complaining and doing nothing once I got to college, especially on social media, got me into a lot of trouble (that was the main thing behind my Title IX) and I burned bridges/my reputation with people from the past (people didn’t really hate me I just wasn’t really “there” so I felt like they didn’t like me).

And then there’s the “incel” thing, like yeah I get that no one deserves relationships or friends or sex just for existing but we are social animals and we need others to live and find meaning and contentment. I just wanted people to do stuff for me and I wish people would have just kept pushing at me and realized that I was just in a force field almost.

I know a lot of this was tangential but it’s just my experience. I think a lot of me is struggling socially and being sensitive because of being on the spectrum and having anxiety and poor self esteem/image, but all of those things are obvious concepts that men are looked down on for having/experiencing. I generally have more masculine interests (some feminine ones as well) but I’m just much more sensitive and emotional and more a mixed bag personality wise (though I still do have traditional masculine desires). You might be able to get away with this stuff if you’re gay, but being a straight, shy/poor socially skilled guy means you’re probably screwed

2024-05-05T20:07:14+00:00

The post screams to me, I always thought I just sucked at fitting in

necrocherry · 2024-05-06T01:18:54+00:00

Full disclosure: I’m a trans man, so I hope that it’s okay for me to pitch in. (I’ve seen some cis men feel like trans men and themselves wouldn’t have enough experiences in common to feel comfortable sharing advocacy spaces, so I’m sorry if I’m overstepping).

I feel this way ALL the time. You have no idea how much I relate to everything that you said.

Mainstream feminists can generally be split into two groups for me: TIRFs (Trans Inclusive Radical Feminists) and TERFs (Trans Exclusive Radical Feminists).

TIRFs make it very clear to me that by being a man, I am NOT part of their in-group. Even before I started taking testosterone and passing as male, TIRFs were very clear about still viewing me as a “male oppressor”. Even when I was 100% perceived as being a woman by literally every stranger on the street, I was told that I had male privilege and benefitted directly from sexism. I was accused of talking over women and “mansplaining” when participating in conversations in ways that never would have ruffled any feathers before I transitioned. It’s only worse now that I have been on testosterone for several years and pass fully as male.

TERFs are also not my allies. I’m a traitor for “trying to be a man”. My gender is pathologized as “wanting to escape female oppression”. I’m continually misgendered and reduced to my genitals. The vitriolic anti-male sentiment present in usual feminist (TIRF) circles is even worse. Masculine/male bodies are mocked and demonized for features that I now possess. Testosterone is basically viewed as spiritual poison that permanently taints you. Trans men are simultaneously demonized and infantilized in a very weird mix depending on who you talk to and what you’re talking about.

Apart from feminism… obviously right-wing parties are not in my best interests. Conservatives actively push to make me having access to necessary medical care either very difficult or outright criminal. For every feminist that views me as a sexual predator by default of being a man, conservatives view me as a deviant monster child groomer by default of being transgender. The mix of demonization and infantilization also exists here; treating me as either a situational “man/ugly woman trying to brainwash and convert your helpless daughters into the Trans Cult” or as a poor, confused, lost little girl who fell victim to the brainwashing myself and is now irreparably broken. The only “correct” male experience to this group is, as you’ve said, adhering rigidly to traditional masculinity and malehood. Anything else is reviled and mocked.

I just want a space where I can see all forms of the male experience celebrated and nurtured, you know? Not just mine, either— genuinely all! It feels like whenever I find a male-positive space, it’ll only be a few days before someone posts a transphobic/homophobic “this is how modern society is RUINING MEN” type post belittling a photo of a random gnc man or trans person, with thousands of upvotes and comments agreeing. Ffs, I saw a post berating a dad for putting on a silly princess dress over his normal clothes and having a tea party with his son, because he wasn’t forcing his son to have traditionally masculine interests. Even in more moderate subreddits, I still feel unwelcome, because every few weeks someone will post “should trans men be allowed in male advocacy?” and the consensus seems to be “no, because I assume trans men are having [xyz] experiences that I can’t relate to”. A lot of the times those assumptions are also just straight up false (I don’t blame anyone for wariness though tbh. A weird amount of trans men that I’ve seen online fall into TIRFism somehow).

Sorry for how long this got. I guess I just wanted to say that you’re not alone, and even if our problems aren’t the exact same, I feel you, and maybe even more kinds of men can relate to your feelings than you would have expected (depending on how you felt previously, I promise I’m not assuming anything about you).

Also, for what relevance it has; I’m pretty mixed in masculine to feminine traits. I’d consider myself pretty masculine in day-to-day behavior and many interests, but I’m pretty comfortable expressing parts of femininity/gender nonconformity that I actually enjoy (ex: I have shoulder length hair, sometimes I paint my nails black, sometimes I wear a pair of black platforms that are definitely meant for women but I think look nice on me. Nothing that you don’t usually see on alternative/emo/punk styled guys anyways, which is how my aesthetic leans).

SvitlanaLeo · 2024-05-05T20:35:05+00:00

Many feminists, even intersectional feminists, erase feminine men. Just listen how they say "white cisgender heterosexual men" as though "cisgender heterosexual" means also masculine. Or they really don't understand privileges of feminine women in relation to feminine men.

Weak_Working8840 · 2024-05-05T20:17:15+00:00

I wouldn't call myself "incredibly alienated", but alienated yes.

60% of young men are single. It's hard for young men to find a partner. And yes, I know the eternal "self-improve, talk to women" etc advice but at this point that advice almost feels like boomers saying "I bought a house at 25, why don't you?" Dating is just much harder now than it used to be, because women now grew up with social media, and women 20 years ago didn't.

And if you're a single guy, who doesn't quite agree with 100% of either the mainstream left or 100% of the mainstream right... it's hard to find a community.

Phuxsea · 2024-05-05T19:57:18+00:00

This is a good rant. To answer your question, yes absolutely.

I am not traditionally masculine, and don't even feel like a man, I prefer calling myself an adult male. I don't have many same interests, except gaming and a few movies. For example, I dislike sports. I'm also more emotional and cry more than I want to, unless hormones physically prevent me from crying. I've been called girly and beta, and I don't care.

I don't belong either on feminist pages or on most male pages online. This sub is the closest but people here downvoted me for not calling myself "anti-feminist"

Grand-Juggernaut6937 · 2024-05-06T01:10:54+00:00

It’s a real, systematic issue. More and more often systems are being built that assume all men have strong networks that allow them to use masculinity to get an edge. If you weren’t socialized in a traditionally masculine way it puts you at a severe disadvantage.

That’s one reason I dislike affirmative action in its current form. You’re not removing the root issue of men’s groups, etc. you’re just making it impossible for the men that don’t participate in those unequal systems.

almightypines · 2024-05-05T19:54:24+00:00

I’m a trans man, and have seen this fairly enough from feminist spaces and feminists. Feminism as an ideology, I generally support. How it’s used in practice by individuals, less so. A lot of trans men have backgrounds in women’s spaces, women’s movements, and feminism. It’s probably not any surprise that we lose that support, from people who said they supported us, when we transition. Sometimes that support extends up until we actually look and sound like cis men. It doesn’t even necessarily have anything to do with how feminine or masculine we are. We’re just men and that becomes a problem.

At this point I’ve lived half my life as one gender and half as another. I suppose as social beings we all have the desire to fit in somewhere, but as I’ve grown older (perhaps wiser also) I found it more important to be true to myself than fit in with a group.

throwburneraway2 · 2024-05-06T00:49:52+00:00

I did feel alienated for a bit. I look masculine for the most part but certainly do not act the part. Lately I've stopped caring and just try to be myself regardless and am starting to see the utility in being traditionally masculine in this neo-lib hellscape of the US. I'm 26 now but certainly felt this way the past 10 years or so.

SpicyMarshmellow · 2024-05-06T05:11:41+00:00

I've lived most of my life in Indiana, also known as "the northern-most southern state". Outside of its capital city, the state is very much hardcore MAGA territory. Even here, I feel like the narrative you hear online about policing of masculine gender performativity is massively hyperbolized compared to reality. Once you get into your 20's and into the hardships of adulthood, nobody really cares, unless you're aggressive and flamboyant and obviously making a show of it for the sake of attention and offending people. I've never cared in the slightest about what's considered masculine or not, and actively rebelled against it in my teens. I got trouble for it back then. Now I'm just sort of seen as eccentric and that's about it. I definitely don't connect with the majority of people very well. But I can get along just fine with nearly anybody. People have more important things to worry about than bullying each other into conforming to gender norms, despite whatever stories the internet left likes to sell.

On the flip side, I'm 40 and considered myself a feminist from my mid-teens to mid-thirties. I was also trapped in a relationship with an abusive woman for 20 years. I think the harshest pressure I have ever received from any group of people in my life to not express myself is pressure from the left to not talk about those experiences and how they've influenced me. Can't tell you how many times I've been called misogynist and implied to be some sort of incel cryptofasc just for speaking plainly about how insensitive feminism/the modern left have become towards men with experiences like mine.

henrysmyagent · 2024-05-05T20:58:21+00:00

You define masculinity for yourself! Women do not get to define what is manly and what is not.

Haven't met many women who cared one whit about what I thought about femininity.

managedheap84 · 2024-05-06T07:47:14+00:00

I’m close to unsubscribing from a few FB groups that up until now I’ve engaged with, supported a lot of what they said and provided my time and perspective to because of this constant barrage of hate.

Anybody that speaks up is set upon with at least 50 laugh reacts or nasty comments. Mirrors exactly my experience in school and engaging on this topic over the last week.

They don’t realise they’re setting their own cause back and alienating people that support them- who probably wouldn’t dare speak up because it’s like blood to sharks. Probably don’t care.

Edit: meant to reply to a specific comment but lost it, not sure this makes as much sense out of that context but yes I have felt and continue to feel alienated.

Blauwpetje · 2024-05-06T09:15:37+00:00

I’m not that masculine. (Not especially ‘feminine’ but simply not that masculine.) In general, I never felt shamed or ridiculed or left out because of that. Not by women, even less by men. (This may be because I’m Dutch, it may be different in the Netherlands than elsewhere.)

I do have the idea I was less attractive to women because of that. They always saw me as just a good friend, while their partners were more the tough kind of men.

I don’t even blame them for that. I do blame feminists for suggesting the softer, more open and empathic, less dominant men are more attractive to women. At an age where my personality wasn’t fixed yet, I could have made other choices than I did now if I knew the truth.

flowingelbe · 2024-05-06T14:59:11+00:00

i'm a trans and gay effeminate man... which means i don't get accepted as a peer among most men for being trans and i don't get accepted as a peer among most women for being a man. it's incredibly lonely. it's as if the second i put testosterone in my body i became a pariah to both sides. i have always been an outcast but it has never been quite this lonely.

mrBored0m · 2024-05-05T21:24:19+00:00

In my country it depends. For example, you can be skinny (non-masculine trait that is okay) but being easily overwhelmed etc is bad.

Personally, I feel alienated because of my insecurities, mental disorders and looks (I'm not only very skinny but also very pale thanks to staying indoors for most part of my life).

In future I plan to gain weight and build some muscles (I want to feel condifent and attract random women/girls). Still, I reject culture of my country, don't support traditions and so on. I don't plan to fit in fully.

But all this stuff is for future. I have to start fighting my social anxiety first.

Also, I should note that my country is not feminist. It's pretty conservative.

Awesometjgreen · 2024-05-06T01:00:33+00:00

Yes but it's mostly related to my career choice and how much money I'm making. Both my oldest sister and my oldest brother hate the fact that I went to college to study film and that I'm wrapping up my masters degree this fall and starting a PhD in the topic next year (if I get accepted into one of the programs I'm applying to).

I'm moving into my mom's new house next month and she already told me I can stay as long as I want and the house will be mine when she passes away since all my brothers and sisters have houses.

Meanwhile my brother keeps trying to convince me to drop out and "sign a contract" to pay him rent and quote "UsE My BaChEloR DeGrEe To GeT A JoB At PaRaMoUnT" (that's not how that fucking works but ok). My sister also decided to turn into a raging bitch and start charging me rent out of nowhere while complaining that I'm just, "LaZy AnD DoNt WaNt To WoRk" knowing full well that film work has been gig based for decades and it takes a long time to get established even with degrees.

So yeah, I do but it's entirely financial lol

BloomingBrains · 2024-05-06T23:01:12+00:00

I definitely used to. The only reason I don't now basically comes down to having a girlfriend, so I just don't care anymore. I get all the validation I need from her and don't need to care what anyone else thinks until/if I need to start dating again.

But before that, I got rejected over and over, was a virgin at 28, got told I'm as bad as Elliot Roger because I assumed it was my fault for being too intrusive and asked innocent questions like how to treat women more respectfully. Etc.

It was so bad that I actually let myself get gaslit and didn't even see myself accurately when I looked into the mirror. I saw a completely different person who was two feet taller and had shoulders twice as broad. A guy who was gruff and intimidating and emotionally dead. If you met me today, you'd laugh your ass off and call me delusional, and you'd be right. I was. I'm actually the complete opposite.

My mind had created this false persona to help reconcile how afraid of me women were with what is often claimed as their preferences. Because despite how much many women claim to want soft, nice boys...many don't. I witnessed how straight up misogyny/sexual harassment would see positive results from "Chads" while respectful behavior from me was considered threatening. I rely can't describe how confusing and depressing this was. It drove me to MGTOW and other radical elements of the manosphere because there was no healthy counter narrative (hadn't found this sub yet).

Not that fear of men who are large and heavily muscled is justified either, but look. If you're a woman and a guy who is only an inch or two taller who barely weighs more than you do is threatening because he asked you on a date, you have serious mental issues. Especially if you're dating a 6'2 football player at the time. Objectively, feminine men pose less of a risk to women.

You should look into the softboy scare. There was a while were women's subs were specifically telling people to distrust and ostracize feminine/non-traditional men. As far as I can tell it was some kind of offshoot of the "niceguyism" paranoia. Their softer edge was seen as a form of niceness and assumed to be fake in kind of the same way that niceness is often assumed to be fake. And just like with niceguyism, actual toxic masculinity was seen as the antidote. It really is a fascinating psychosocial phenomenon, I hope scientists study it one day from internet archives because we all know that irrational/hateful female behavoirs don't get studied nowadays.

ManWithTwoShadows · 2024-05-06T08:03:21+00:00

I personally do not struggle with acceptance, but maybe that's because my feminine traits aren't really obvious until you know me well.

I own five stuffed animals.
I like romance in fiction.
I express my feelings through journaling.
I enjoy watching defensive fighters.

Those aren't things that come up in everyday conversation (except maybe that last one). If other people knew about my unmanly habits, maybe I would struggle to be accepted, and that's okay because I don't need judgmental people in my life anyway.

soggy_sock1931 · 2024-05-06T14:26:50+00:00

I think one difference between men and women is that shaming is a much more effective way of controlling the former.

For example, men pay for first dates to avoid being seen as broke, men don't open up to their partners because women typically don't take it well, a real man does..., etc.

I find it quite useful to know when people are employing this tactic and not care about what they think of me. I am a man after all and I get to define masculinity for myself.

White_Immigrant · 2024-05-06T12:21:12+00:00

Don't let others define what masculinity is, or define how "manly" you feel. They're gatekeeping something that doesn't belong to them. There is no shared masculinity in anglophone nations, let alone the west or the wider world. Anyone that tries to create a predefined man box is probably doing so out of a sense of deeper insecurity.

NiceTraining7671 · 2024-05-06T08:03:08+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Inevitable_Ice_6639 · 2024-05-08T16:07:47+00:00

Long story short (this is not an attack on woman just my experience) the main lack of acceptance comes from the women in my life ironically considering they are self proclaimed feminists usually amongst friends it's ok however when it comes to relationships, as a previous comment stated, shortly after I would get dumped because I was "too sensitive for a man".

I'm not sure if it's becoming more prevalent or I'm just being exposed to it more often.

One love all.🙏

MissDaphneAlice · 2024-05-08T19:46:59+00:00

Feminism was NEVER about equality.

Women were business owners and could vote before a great percentage of men, and they didn't have to be drafted into civil or military duty, which was set as precedent by the Supreme Court as the "price of voting".

So these women were voting boys and men into violent death when they were too poor to vote against it. And if they didn't vote them in, they publicly SHAMED them in. (Look up White Feather Campaign)

And it was women, not just men, who were most against suffrage, because they feared it would mean black votes, and equal financial responsibility. But no, they got it, and still get it, for free.

As soon as areas of life become safe and cushy (thanks to man's invention & innovation) feminists demand the rewards of those inventions (university, military, government, work force, etc.) are a human right they've been oppressively denied.

Birth control gave women more options. Domestic technology gave women more options. Feminism just took credit.

It's been 100 years since any woman (OR MAN) was denied the right to vote. It's been 0 years since the last draft and 0.05 seconds since the last 17 year-old boy registered for selective service, under penalty of law, knowing the political climate of today.

Feminism is the hatred of AMABs for not inventing modern technology soon enough to exclude AFABs from the human condition.

Be egalitarian.

lostwanderer02 · 2024-05-08T22:40:28+00:00

I am not a masculine man and I agree it's hard to be yourself in society. Ironically a lot of women also support toxic masculinity even the ones that claim not to.

Glass-Pain3562 · 2025-05-28T16:39:16+00:00

I've said it before: "Our society, even among the most progressive feminist, cannot tolerate a non masculine male because the perception of a non-masculine acting male and a parasite is indistinguishable."

Title	Do any other “non-masculine” men also struggle with a lack of acceptance?
Author	NiceTraining7671
Upvotes	152
Comments	118
Date	May 5, 2024 6:29 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1ckxvlw/do_any_other_nonmasculine_men_also_struggle_with/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/do-any-other-non-masculine-men-also-struggle-with.1517494 https://theredarchive.com/post/1517494

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