I’ve been seeing an uptick in the posts and comments on here criticizing beauty and performative femininity, here’s some more food for thought :)

Daydreamingon · 2021-04-06T23:23:48+00:00

This reminds me of one of my favorite Margaret Atwood quotes:

"Male fantasies, male fantasies, is everything run by male fantasies? Up on a pedestal or down on your knees, it's all a male fantasy: that you're strong enough to take what they dish out, or else too weak to do anything about it. Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur."

New_Article7411 · 2021-04-07T02:42:17+00:00

I think if I had a dog training clicker, and clicked it every time I saw an image on tv that told women to wear makeup, or alter their natural state, it would click constantly. The message is that you are not good as you are. Thinking back to cartoons, the only way I knew a character was female, was that they were wearing makeup. Or had ridiculously long lashes. Now women's lashes are not longer than men's naturally. Why is this? I can't see an image on tv, in a magazine, or on an ad where a woman is completely natural. Their hair is dyed, their lips, eyelids and cheeks are unnatural colors. Curly hair is straightend and straight hair is curled. It's a constant messaging that we are not good enough as is, and the standards are always changing. I wish all women would collectively stop altering their natural appearance. The men would still want us. I can't give up mascara. I suspect it is the hardest thing for me to quit, because as a small child, all the female characters had lush lashes. I know people think media doesn't affect them that much, but I strongly believe it does. I am not walking around with a mirror in front of my face all day, so why do I it?

UnstrirringCoffee · 2021-04-07T11:27:45+00:00

Being "hot" is only compared to other women. You are "hot" because other women are not. It's a deliberate hierarchy that plays us against another. It's like a form of mass-triangulation.

KiwiTigerLoon · 2021-04-07T02:43:47+00:00

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fdssavedmylife · 2021-04-06T23:40:27+00:00

It’s important to explore the beauty myth in particular because women are almost solely affected by it, despite what LVM on Reddit want to claim about “male beauty standards.” There are many societal expectations we all face, but only women are expected to depilate their entire body from the eyebrows down and are considered ugly or frumpy or tired if they don’t wear makeup daily.

Why? Why are men allowed to have dark circles? Why are men allowed to have acne and scars and wrinkles? Why are we, as women, continuing to hide ours? Why are we ashamed of our normal, natural skin? Why are we embarrassed to have pores? Why are we photoshopping our cellulite and stretch marks out? Is it really for you, who sees yourself and knows yourself in all your natural beauty?

I think it’s important to be aware of the things we lowkey do because of standards and expectations perpetuated by men. I’m not immune. I wear makeup a few times a week and shave my legs when I go to the beach or start dating someone new. We all grew up with internalized misogyny and the idea that we need to “compete” with other women (hence the prevalence of pickmes). So, if everyone else is wearing makeup and shaving their legs, we feel subconsciously obligated to keep up with our neighbors so to speak.

What if all women just collectively decided to stop wearing makeup tomorrow? You know, the way all men are allowed to live their lives? We’d be judged by other things, sure, but at least we wouldn’t be playing by their rules. Personally, I’d love a future where all women feel comfortable leaving the house with hairy legs and a fresh face. Because why can’t we?

ThrowawayKITTY777 · 2021-04-07T00:46:50+00:00

I actually had a LOT to say to the lady who deleted her comment

😿😿😿

I'll just comment with what I wrote anyway

Since you brought up the goth example

👋👋👋

Hi 43 year old goth/metalhead who has been gothing since my teens.

Goth women are still unfortunately held to quite a high standard of needing to being "hot" by goth men AND their female goth peers.

Don't feel like putting on elaborate make up that will just melt during the summer and just wanna go out to dance in your favorite band tshirt and hope the heat doesn't melt you ? Well do that and you hear from men AND women : "Are you ok? Are you unwell?"

Nope... guys can get away with black pants and a black band shirt at all times and that's cool..... yet women are NOT ALLOWED to get away with that even when it's 100 degrees hot on the dance floor. We're still "supposed to" do corsets and vinyl skirts in the worst weather because if we don't we're "not trying or there's something wrong with us"

I hate to break your imaginings about the goths.... and I love that you think we've somehow broken ALL the stereotypes because we're alternative .... but no... being a goth woman you're still expected to conform to the usual ol' male-female standards... in a perfect world it would be better

breadandbunny · 2021-04-07T02:56:13+00:00

I think my idea of what is beautiful in women came from crap I was always exposed to in the media growing up, and also from experiences I had comparing myself to other female friends, and growing up as a twin. I was just always the ugly one. I don't know why. People always seemed to like my twin more than me. My own friends would always tell me how pretty she is, coworkers would talk about how much slimmer than me she is, on at least two different occasions, my dad called me fat, all my friends were getting boyfriends/first kisses and they were often skinny or had long hair, etc. so I figured men like skinny women, women with long hair, etc. It took me a long time to not compare myself to my friends or my sister, or any woman I would see on TV that seemed to be something that men like. It's awful to feel so self conscious, which is always the worst when you are young and impressionable.

I still have days where I don't like the way I look, but it's less about appealing to some male gaze and more about something I see that I think is an imperfection (like acne or blemishes).

Jasmineof-Agrabah · 2021-04-07T11:52:38+00:00

I totally get what you mean, and yes I’m realizing about the concept of the male gaze more and more. On the other hand, all animals groom themselves and I think for a woman to be sexual and wanting to attract a mate is natural but only when you do it because of your needs. However we don’t really need to shave or do makeup. Just taking baths, moisturizing our skin, brushing our hair is often good enough for us to feel sexy. Also I found out when I dress confortable I feel sexier.

kycake · 2021-04-07T01:41:03+00:00

what is hot is decided by males. male fantasies get sold to us by media, books, religions, literally everything. and as we grow up we internalize these fantasies and desires as our own. we start to think that it is our desire to be dominated in sex, to be hairless everywhere, to wear tight or binding clothes, to shrink our waist as much as humanly possible while having our butt and chest be as big as possible etc. so many women internalize male fantasies and desire as their own, myself included. not until recently have i started to wake up a bit and realize the reality of the situation. we get sold ideas from the day we are born and a child’s mind is like a sponge, the messages we get turn into subconscious beliefs that drive our behavior and preferences. which is why so many women find it empowering to be as hot as possible to the males, since we grow up watching movies and seeing stories where only beautiful women are allowed to be seen and to do fun stuff. only beautiful women get treated with respect. only beautiful women get a chance to go after their wild dreams. etc. and of course the conditioning that woman’s first and foremost value lies in having a man and having kids and being attractive, this conditioning is ingrained into young kids who grow up to just feel miserable unless they fit into the beauty standard of being a woman. that’s precisely why so many girls and women have boyfriends that are not only not adding value to their lives but are in fact making their lives more miserable and more difficult. The toxic conditioning makes women feel that they need a relationship and makes women crave a relationship regardless of whether or not she actually is benefiting from that relationship.

spaceyAsh · 2021-04-07T19:53:47+00:00

I've been identifying beauty rituals/items that make me feel good vs those that hurt me. By hurt I mean cause insecurity, lower my self appreciation, are uncomfortable or just downright painful.
Some thing I eliminated were - 1 ) high heels or any heels. They fucking hurt. They are bad for your posture, bad for your toes and are horribly painful to even wear let alone walk in. 2 ) waxing - this one is harder but i absolutely cannot put myself through that kind of pain over and over again because of something totally natural. I trim my armpits during summers coz they get sweaty and that's about it. 3 ) heavy makeup - once you get used to seeing yourself in makeup, your non-made up face starts to looks bad to you. (speaking only for myself here). I dont ever want to feel like my existence as I was born is not good enough. That i need to cake and cover and hide "imperfections" to feel good. Meanwhile men roll out of bed and put on basic ass clothes and can still look cute. Why? Because we are not bombarded with images of them in makeup all the time.
According to me, as long as you still appreciate and love your unaltered appearance then by all means do what you like. But don't let anyone convince you that you "need" those things to be beautiful. My comfort and ease are my main priority. I don't owe anyone "pretty".

ciciplum · 2021-04-07T11:03:09+00:00

And that's on critical thinking

2021-04-07T14:37:23+00:00

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rlcute · 2021-04-07T21:23:40+00:00

Wlw can attest to how "hotness" is a standard created by men. What I find attractive in a woman's aesthetic is what men would be repulsed by.

Wlw generally don't dress or act according to how men think we should, and it shows. And it results in the woman having an aura of "idgaf", which men also hate.

And as a side note, women are in general VASTLY more attractive than men. I thought I was a lesbian for a while because I was legitimately not attracted to any man in real life or media.

Then I realised that since I'm attracted to women i compare men's attractiveness to women. And they just can't compete.

Women are fine wine and men are store brand beer.

I personally believe that men are so obsessed with ranking women's attractiveness because they deep down know that they look like a hobgoblin and they're trying to puff their non existent feathers.

RadioactiveJoy · 2021-04-07T00:56:39+00:00

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Watzoo · 2021-04-07T14:29:25+00:00

This is also true for the concept of modesty (as relates to physical exposure).

slayeroftruth · 2021-04-07T18:17:53+00:00

Men own logic makes no sense. They say women have no value at 30 and older. So if that's what males think about us why bother performing femininity for them when for a big portion of our life we have no value according to men ? It makes no sense to perform femininity for such short time period to get no worthwhile compensation.

HlGHFIVE · 2021-04-07T04:22:47+00:00

There is nothing hotter than a good personality and a sense of humor

penelopekitty · 2021-04-07T03:52:15+00:00

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nieces-pieces · 2021-04-07T02:02:19+00:00

Ruthless bitchiness is HAWT

yolosunshine · 2021-04-07T09:37:42+00:00

Come now, let’s not give men a monopoly on the wide sky idea of hot.

If by hot we mean ‘indicative of an object I would use to orgasm’ then fuck that shit.

If by hot we mean ‘indicative of person I would like to get as close as possible to’ then no, I don’t think that’s quite what Atwood was talking about.

fds_account58 · 2021-04-07T13:09:13+00:00

Imo confidence is hot. It’s not a specific look. Someone who likes a lot of makeup and wears it is hot. Someone who likes her hair short and wears it short is hot. Someone who hates makeup and never wears it is hot. Someone who loves vintage potato sacks and wears those is hot.

A woman who is clearly performing a trend for men isn’t hot.

That’s what I think. And that’s how I live my life and present myself (except when I need to advance my career and a man or potential pickme is calling the shots).

I’m really tired of radfems saying that if you wear any makeup or ever wear heels you’re not actually a real feminist. I have had days where I wore heels for boys and days when I wore them for me and there’s a big difference. I understand that supporting the cosmetic/fashion industry is not the best place for money and power to be going, but that’s true of shopping at most affordable stores as well, so where does it end? Am I not a true feminist if I shop at Walmart because they exploits female and child labor? Sounds a little classist.

If you’re doing it for men, it’s not empowering. If you’re doing it for you, it is. Here’s the test (radfems have tried this test on me thinking I’ll realize I don’t understand my own mind—sounds like conservative men i know): would you do it if you weren’t going to see anyone all day? This is not a hypothetical with COVID anymore. If the answer is yes, it’s plenty feminist.

And BY THE WAY, (joker voice) we live in a society. Not a vacuum. Most of us are going to have days or periods of our lives where we cave and want attention and male validation and proximity to male power and wear a low-cut top for the wrong reasons. Pick up your crown, dust it off, and move on.

throw2422 · 2021-04-08T10:45:22+00:00

I completely see where this is coming from but I personally get a lot of enjoyment from being "pretty". I completely acknowledge that it comes from male fantasies but some part of it also comes from my admiration to other women.

Maybe it comes from another place but I see it in a "what can misogyny do for you". Men are slaves to their fantasies and using them to use them benefits us imo.

d33n3r_ · 2021-04-06T23:40:14+00:00

[deleted]

Title	I’ve been seeing an uptick in the posts and comments on here criticizing beauty and performative femininity, here’s some more food for thought :)
Author	d33n3r_
Upvotes	988
Comments	68
Date	April 6, 2021 10:55 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/FemaleDatingStrategy
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/mlo6z2/ive_been_seeing_an_uptick_in_the_posts_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/ive-been-seeing-an-uptick-in-the-posts-and.778402 https://theredarchive.com/post/778402

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