Are you guys... the rich?

box2check · 2012-11-16T19:01:20+00:00

Are you guys all Republicans of various shades?

No. In America, both the left and the right are anti-MRM, just in different ways. Make no mistake: both sides of the political spectrum in the US crave an expansion of the police state. The rhetoric changes depending on who is on top at any given moment -- and who is getting the patronage -- but there is no organized political force for less government with any strength in the US.

That's why you hear so many people call themselves "Libertarians". It is a "protest identity" -- they are not happy with either of the two major parties so they take on an indistinct label that means different things to different people. Since Libertarians as a true political party (not merely a political philosophy) have never had to face the challenge of actually governing, nobody actually knows how a Libertarian government would function in the US practice. After insisting their opposition to the two party system in the end most Libertarians in the US wind up voting Republican and have for decades: http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/poll-shows-romney-winning-high-water-mark-for-libertarian-vote/

Note this is very different than the political systems you are familiar with from Europe. Third parties in the US are the clowns of our system. In Europe, even small third parties can become very powerful through the formation of ruling coalitions. Nothing even remotely like that exists in our system.

Sometimes, this place makes me feel... unwelcome

Hey, welcome to the real world. You're going to bump into people who disagree with you and who see the world in fundamentally different ways. Unless you are in a media echo chamber, you should feel uncomfortable sometimes at what other people are saying about issues you care about! Media echo chambers can be comfortable cocoons, but they tend to end badly for the people who try to live there -- just consider how literally everyone on Fox predicted the recent US election so poorly.

TL;DR: This is not a feminist-inspired "safe space"

danpilon · 2012-11-16T16:57:00+00:00

I'm with you. I'm as liberal as they come. I fail to see how feminism==liberal. Just because many republicans make statements that are quite offensive to women, doesn't mean you are republican if you disagree with feminism. I am all for righting wrongs that women face, as long as those wrongs are real and not a result of phony/flawed statistics. I am also all for righting the wrongs that men face, with the same caveat. I just think it is wrong to solely focus on one and not the other.

FponkDamn · 2012-11-16T16:44:10+00:00

It's funny that your post was titled "are you rich," but your TL;DR was "are you Republicans?" Those aren't the same, you know. :)

Personally, I'm a Libertarian. I get the feeling we're pretty well-represented here, too - at least, I've never FELT like an outlier here. I try to keep my discussions to the topic at hand, but if it ever came up, there you go.

I think the reason you see a decent amount of crossover is because ultimately, the MRM is about equality. When women didn't have the right to vote, they were right to complain; at that time, a "feminist" was someone fighting for equality. Now though, they just want institutionalized preference. You can see this pattern in any equal rights movement - it starts out striving for "equal rights," but since no one likes to say "Well, we did it! We can go home and stop being activists now!" it eventually just becomes a never-ending battle for more privileges. Heck, it'll probably happen to the MRM someday.

I don't like calling myself a MRA, because what I really am is an Egalitarian. A person's a person, no matter how small (or what gender, color, creed, etc.). As such, I tend to speak out whenever I see ANYONE unjustly treated. Which also means yes, I tend to speak out against other forms of injustice as I see them. If I see injustice that is MRM-related, I post it here. If it's relevant to someone else, I try not to cross-contaminate.

EpicJ · 2012-11-16T16:37:49+00:00

I'm not republican I'm from UK

RedditBlueit · 2012-11-16T18:02:16+00:00

One of the valuable things about this site is the diversity of opinion it offers. Most of Reddit may be under-30 males in the US and UK, but not all. Exposure to that diversity is helpful; it is better for our cause if we cannot be pigeonholed and marginalized. (I'd even wager I'm part of the reason feminists think of MRAs as failed male specimens bitter about rejection. - this is an example of that pigeonholing and marginalization; so is "MRA's are just looking to avoid child support."

If you're looking for an echo chamber, where only ideas that you find palatable are allowed, you're probably going to have to pick and chose the articles you read carefully. On the other hand, if you have a differing opinion, you should not feel unwelcome. If you're able to articulate it, reasonable people will engage you, and the unreasonable ones? I say, fuck 'em if they can't take a thought!

Your specific example "No Rings for Liberal Women" is a riff on Dalrock's "No Rings for Sluts", written two years ago. I disagree with your claim that "this had. nothing. to do. with women." Here's how I see his argument:

Liberal Women "like the idea of having a father/husband/provider figure in the form of the government"
The one thing Liberal Women can't get from the government is "intimacy. Namely marriage."

Everything society has built up in their little minds as to just how glorious marriage and the married life is CANNOT be provided by the state. And it is the one thing you have that they want. And want it they will when they realize all the government programs in the world won't cuddle up next to her in bed on a cold winter night.

The logical response is to withhold Marriage from Liberal Women:

You liberal women made it very clear who you want to marry. You want to marry Big Daddy G (government). And I find it hard to propose to somebody who's already married. I suggest men get a little bit of self-respect here and do the same.

It has everything to do with men and women - "Liberal Women" want to change the marriage contract to exclude men without accepting the responsibility for their actions. Ask anyone here who has been through divorce court how well that's working.

Sorry for the rambling response. The short answer is that I'm part of the middle class that pays taxes, but not part of the class that pays >50% of all taxes.

pocketknifeMT · 2012-11-16T18:39:47+00:00

I'm an Ancap, and there are a few more around here I know. This is Libertarian thought taken to its logical conclusion, if you are not familiar.

bashar_al_assad · 2012-11-16T22:14:28+00:00

Liberal nonwhite MRA here.

and my liberal sense of humor lol'd at your tldr compared to your title question.

Raidicus · 2012-11-16T16:39:04+00:00

I am a moderate Democrat meaning that while I support certain social programs and believe taxes are a necessity for modern society, I also have my hot button issues the will make me sound very much like a republican.

I have no idea what the article you are referring to is about, I'd recommend you include a link if you want to foster real discussion about it. It sounds like a rant that has nothing to do with MRM.

Lastly, I will say that it is inevitable that the dominant discourse (white, financially stable, christian, men) are drawn to MRM because those are the ones who will most likely feel the constant effects of Dominant discourse discrimination. The more you fit into the dominant discourse, the less anyone gives a shit what happens to you (in short). This is a group that generally tends to be conservative if not socially, then definitely fiscally.

sibqm_lmvm · 2012-11-16T18:20:16+00:00

I'm in no way, shape, or form a republican. I'm pretty moderate, but i lean towards the left/libertarianism.

AnthonyZarat · 2012-11-16T18:45:33+00:00

Voting

I voted for Obama in 2008. This was the first time in many, many years that I believed in the person I voted for (both candidates are usually totally inadequate, and I vote against the worst of them).

This year, I voted against Obama. I did not vote "for" his opponent.

Obamacare

Obamacare will help many people in the short term.

In the long term, it contains structural discrimination against men, boys, and fathers. Obamacare contains a policymaking office (the USPSTF) which is overseen by seven offices of women's health, and no offices of men's health. This means that:

Every time they want to save money, it is likely that they will do so by cutting healthcare for men.
Every time they want to increase quality, it is likely that they will do so by increasing coverage for women.

Over time, this will increasingly generate a two-tier healthcare system, with quality care for women and little if anything for men.

Wealth

I am upper middle class, and I work as a scientist in Long Island. I was born middle middle class and lived most of my life lower middle class (50% of my life I used a bike for transportation because I had no money for bus fare).

jolly_mcfats · 2012-11-16T17:22:32+00:00

I'm not at a republican, and I just roll my eyes every time a republican tries to insist that your interest in men's rights means that you have to be one. There are a lot of scientists in this movement, and in a recent pew poll only 6% of american scientists identify as republicans, so I think it is safe to say that you aren't alone. There are only a few members of this subreddit that constantly beat the republican drum though- it's just that the republicans are out of power, and Obama is clearly not interested in men's rights, so the partisan left has less ability to kid themselves about their side.

hugolp · 2012-11-16T18:21:15+00:00

Im a left libertarian and I have no remorse when I say that Obama is a murderer. You deal whith your concience if you support him.

You dont have to be a republican, not even like them, to see that Obama is a disaster and Obamacare is just a present for the insurance companies.

radrler · 2012-11-16T16:38:17+00:00

I fail to see the equivalence of having a belief in republican ideologies and being bourgeois. You can be for individual rights, fiscal conservatism, and less/slower gov't growth and be "poor."

As I was reading, I realized this was not about women at all, but rather about class warfare.

You should elaborate.

Women are the largest consumers of government welfare in America, from cradle to grave. Men are the largest portion of the taxbase, that pays for that social welfare.

Canadian4Paul · 2012-11-16T19:22:51+00:00

Socially liberal, fiscally conservative.

loose-dendrite · 2012-11-16T21:53:49+00:00

Libertarian of various shade is probably the most common here. Left or right. Republicans and democrats are both asshats.

Reallynow3 · 2012-11-16T17:40:04+00:00

I've got nothing to my name and the industry I'm training to be in is being consistently pushed out of country by over regulation. Don't assume that all "poor" would rather suckle on the government teat than let business do business.

And in this movement you will find more people of a libertarian bent than not, because this movement recognizes and criticizes the government for making life worse for people.

BuncyTheFrog · 2012-11-16T16:48:13+00:00

I'm mostly centrist, though I lean to the left and libertarian sides a bit. I've found myself in your situation a bit as well, where I'm being exposed to people saying "here's how we help men, let's [something I've never subscribed to in my life]."

I've come to learn, especially in the past few months, that a label like "republican" or "democrat" does not adequately describe at least a good segment of the people here.

I agree a ton with the democrat position of trying to establish a livable baseline of wealth, health, and acceptance of lifestyle. The democrats do have a tendency to do their pandering by appealing to the segments of the population who need or want that help, which is what leads to the socialism, Obama hates men, give women whatever they want because they just want it reactions that you see here.

Meanwhile, I can get behind the republican viewpoints of fiscal responsibility, government not overstretching its bounds where it doesn't need to, and strongly questioning the entitlement of a segment of people where the only real justification is "it feels right." That being said, the republicans are still really caught up in religion, warfare, pandering to the super rich, etc. I'm still struggling to look past my learned mistrust of the party to try and see the points that it actually makes sense on.

As far as the community as a whole goes, you're probably going to see the people on this sub leaning to the right and libertarian sides, and if we had an election of the people in this sub, republicans probably would have a better chance of winning, but I'm also not convinced that the people here especially identify with everything the republicans stand for. I can't say that with much confidence though.

tl;dr we're all types of people

2012-11-16T18:41:19+00:00

Being an MRA does not make someone more likely to be politically conservative, but from what I've seen of US politics Republicans are perhaps more likely to be MRAs for the wrong reasons. Doesn't mean the rest of us are (republican, or here for the wrong reasons).

wrez · 2012-11-16T22:38:06+00:00

I am a Libertarian but at the core, I consider myself Egalitarian too. Technically, I am an independent.

Most Libertarians vote Republican for a very specific reason - there is a strong, egalitarian, limited government movement within the Republican Party. Ron Paul is a shining example of that, and although he did not win the nomination, he did get his agenda talked about on the national level. Ron Paul is a great man, talking about the power of the state, and the government monopoly of violence against the Individual.

Now for a great quote from a great president.

"Let us not seek the Republican answer or the Democratic answer, but the right answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept our own responsibility for the future". -John F. Kennedy

Parties don't matter as much as does the correctness of the platform. I would vote Democratic tomorrow if there started to be fiscal constraint and a move against authoritarianism. However, the truth is that both parties are quite Statist, one just slightly less so. Most RadFems are part of the Democratic fringe.

pauldustllah · 2012-11-17T03:43:28+00:00

Lol I seem to be only only one so far who is actually Republican.

But lets be honest here, while I am republican I don't come here to the MR sub-reddit and talk about Obama or any of that political nonsense. I'm not here on this sub reddit because I am republican I'm here because I am an MRA and I am here to learn and give my two cents when it comes to issues with men's rights and promoting gender equality.

r_rships_account · 2012-11-17T03:45:29+00:00

Poor libertarian checking in.

sunofsomething · 2012-11-17T04:05:40+00:00

I guess just to provide a little more diversity: I'm a pretty far left democratic socialism advocating for socialist structures in a democratic capitalist society.

We aren't all tea party republicans.

actanonverba8 · 2012-11-17T05:37:15+00:00

I'm a "me" and that's it.

My observations about the conservatives (more likely to be repulbican) and the liberals (more likely to be democrats), in the simplest terms, regarding men's rights issues are as follows:

Democrats have a bunch of manginas and few white knights. Republicans have a bunch of white knights and a few manginas. Like the rest of our culture, only a very small percentage is passionately interested in and will stand up for men's rights.

I definitely give the nod to the republican side when it comes to media. I have seen articles and programs in conservative media that are pro men's rights that simply would have never seen the light of day in liberal media. (as far as specific labels with conservative, republican, liberal, democrat, I'm doing the best I can. I know they are not strictly interchangeable.)

As far as voting. First of all, for reasons too detailed to go into here, males that do have leadership positions (schools, churches, government, etc...) nearly always serve females above males. Even so, Obama and Biden are on another level. Obama is no better than if the feminists had programmed an android as president. Biden penned the greatest piece of misandry legislation ever, VAWA. So, as someone interested in men's rights, that really puts me off. A tiny example, besides the female supremacist legislation, of Obama is that he decided to use his father's day speech as a chance to scold men. It's almost like having Jessica Valenti in office.

Maschalismos · 2012-11-17T10:57:41+00:00

Im a democrat. Straight up. I favor high taxes, and a robust safety net. I want the us's economy to be more canadian in nature.

I also want to feel like I am not hated in society for my gender. I want to be able to teach science to kids without needing a security camera for my own protection. I want a family without the certain knowledge that my children can be taken away from me at any time Iwant the social and psychological beatings to stop. That is why im an MRA.

Camoral · 2012-11-17T21:40:19+00:00

Moderate with conservative economic tenancies and liberal social tenancies.

radrler · 2012-11-16T17:59:59+00:00

Your assumption that all Republicans are rich is pretty insulting. Where in the states do you live? I see that perhaps you grew up in the USSR? Are you still in Europe?

Charwinger21 · 2012-11-16T18:17:59+00:00

I'm probably about the equivalent of the U.S.'s communist party.

Different countries though, so that's about middle-right here.

enkidusfriend · 2012-11-16T19:21:20+00:00

Are you guys all Republicans of various shades?

Republicans are in the United States. Right now, we are on something called an internet which allows people from various different countries to communicate with each other. A result of this is that there are many people on the internet, on Reddit, and on this particular Subreddit who are not Republicans because such a category does not apply to them.

Welcome to the internet.

As for my politics more generally, I live in Canada and typically vote for the NDP, a party on the left in Canada. If NDP policies were brought into the political mainstream in the U.S., Fox News would literally explode.

rightsbot · 2012-11-16T16:32:20+00:00

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duglock · 2012-11-16T19:33:50+00:00

I'm not a Republican I mostly vote Libertarian. I'm also not rich. I'm middle class and I'm not starving but I'm not nearly as well off as I'd like to be.

I'm pretty happy about Obamacare but I really doubt it's going to be implemented very efficiently. At least it's something though.

I totally agree about boycotting marriage. The marriage system is horribly biased against men and it's never going to change unless men opt out.

Let me be clear here. I'm not saying anything against people having committed relationships.

I'm not saying anything against people choosing to make a vows to each other in a religious sense.

I'm saying the government contract between two people that the courts call marriage is what needs to be avoided at all costs.

JockeVXO · 2012-11-17T00:57:29+00:00

Swedish, working class, male. My political views are varied, I would not have voted for neither Obama nor Romney, though.

2012-11-17T04:27:13+00:00

I'm not rich by any means. I am a tradesman so I do OK and can work pretty much at will.

I think when you take yourself out of the media loop and just kind of look around and see for yourself how things go, you quickly come to the conclusion that every issue presented is argued from both sides with half-truths or outright lies. There are no real journalists in the MSM. Jon Stewart is a funny-ish guy, but he is really just a political pundit for the left. His speciality is ridicule. Look who Jons brother is I tend to vote Republican only because the Democrats have declared me their enemy by their actions over the past 20 years. Marriage, is a fools bet. Would you get on an airplane that had a 50% chance of landing safely? No. Marriage wouldn't be an issue if the courts were even remotely just, but they are not. In many cases you would be better off to have died in a plane crash than to have survived divorce. Having a relationship is one thing, giving surety for someone who may or may not like you tommorrow is another.

Also, Craig Ferguson is funny, Daniel Tosh is funny, Eddie Izzard is a genius.

2012-11-17T06:56:49+00:00

I'm a poor libertarian who works for the government and is really tired.

jealkeja · 2012-11-17T14:30:29+00:00

Repeat: this had. nothing. to do. with women.

I think that's supposed to be the point. In an ideal world no one needs people to speak up for the ways the world mistreats them. However, equality doesn't exist, and so we have Reggie Jackson and feminists and Muslim leaders speaking out for their cause. They speak out for the issues that affect them. MRAs speak out for issues that affect us.

There is no such thing as maternity fraud. It literally can not happen. Men bear an unfair burden when it comes to child support if you consider what little parental rights we have. Women's health programs receive more money, men are universally seen as victimizers, and even the most flimsy of false rape allegations can ruin a man for life.

These are not issues that women face, so men must stand up for them. It's not about repressing women, it's about progressing everyone to a point where we are as equal as possible in the eyes of the law and society.

Snooves · 2012-11-16T16:39:56+00:00

I'm a Libertarian because I feel people should be free, and that hard work shouldn't be penalized through taxation redistributing wealth from those who work to those who don't. I'm not rich, but am solidly middle class.

I read the "No Rings for Liberal Women" article, and honestly real opinion about it. I understand the author's resentment about not wanting to be with someone who votes to have the government pick his pocket, but don't see the article as a solution or as anything more than a circle jerk.

DavidByron · 2012-11-16T18:17:58+00:00

I'm a communist. Seem to be in a minority on that.

SCCROW · 2012-11-16T17:41:44+00:00

Try using a nette pot. That works.

Amunium · 2012-11-16T20:12:43+00:00

I'm not poor, but I am a socialist.

I think it's a damn shame that the American (which I'm not) left wing panders so much to feminists, but I'm not going to change my entire political ideology based on that.

HettGutt_MRMarxist · 2012-11-16T22:49:47+00:00

I'm a proud statist-socialist. My political beliefs are closer to Lenin, Stalin, and Qaddafi than Trotsky and Chomsky.

The only reason I don't exactly consider myself a Marxist is because I don't agree with the Labour Theory of Value. I consider myself a cultural Marxist and proudly use class theory to describe why, in modern marriage, men are of a lower social class.

I love Bill Maher, Michael Moore, Jon Stewart, Thom Hartmann, David Harvey, Noam Chomsky, Richard Wolff, Cenk Uygur, & David Pakman.

I proudly voted for Barack Hussein Obama (twice) & Elizabeth Warren.

I strongly support nationalization of all natural resources, utilities, & health care, and worker ownership of all other businesses.

I don't even agree with the entire MRA "party platform;" I support social encouragement of women to enter STEM fields, recognize anti-female discrimination in hiring and advancement, and advocate circumcision at birth as a preventative health procedure. I reserve affirmative action for the poor and blacks, Latinos, and Native Americans, because those groups are disproportionately poor, primarily due to past and current discrimination and the inertia of poverty.

And I think libertarians are even worse than neo-cons.

Men need government even more than women do. Men are the workhorses of capitalism. Men make up 92% of workplace deaths, 89% of the US military, 98% of US military deaths in recent wars, and over 99% of military deaths historically. Men work harder, less-safe jobs with longer hours and more stress. Men are disproportionately homeless.

I LOVE "big gub'min," bad policy is no reason to support some pseudo-stateless, pseudo-meritocratic corporate-dominated libertopia of no worker rights, trashing of the Earth, and the worst inequality mankind haced ever faced.

2012-11-16T19:01:46+00:00

No, we're not all rich republicans.

MR attracts plenty of unsavory extreminst sorts, like the "women shouldn't have the right to vote and stay in the kitchen!" types. And then MGTOW live-a-life-of-celibacy guys, but they certainly do not represent MRs.

When I see that kind of derpitude I just don't comment on it usually, I'm sure others do the same, do don't take that kind of silence for agreement.

klaphatte · 2012-11-16T16:39:14+00:00

No. But there is a vocal minority of people who were indoctrinated with Christianity and Republicanism. To them logic doesn't matter. They will say stupid shit like "Obama doesn't care about your rights", implying the pathetic opinion that Romney would have cared about anyone.

Yes, Romney hates women. And black people. And hispanics. In fact anyone but old, white men. And then only if they are rich.

Religion is very difficult for some people to shake, and they see Obama as 'the devil' and thus he must be the reason for everything that is wrong in their worlds.

However, make no mistake. There are sane Men's Rights supporters, both inside and outside of USA. We're just typically a bit less vocal about ignorant political statements.

SarcastiCock · 2012-11-16T16:37:17+00:00

Thrown out on the streets, alienated from my kids, living in a one bedroom apartment. Obama sucks and so do you.

OuiCrudites · 2012-11-16T17:08:29+00:00

Do you see us making crass, ignorant generalizations about Israeli politics? No? Then what entitles you to do the same?

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-11-16T18:11:31+00:00

My politics are David Icke.

electriophile · 2012-11-16T20:07:06+00:00

First of all, being financially well off and being liberal are not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of rich people who are in favor of liberal ideals (Warren Buffet, Bill Gates), and there are plenty of poor people who are right-wing conservatives (you need only look at the Bible Belt).

While the men's rights movement does tend to attract more conservatives than other major subreddits, I'd wager that most of us are either pretty moderate or center-left. Me, I'm a flaming liberal. I think a Socialized Democracy would be an excellent form of government, I believe in universal healthcare and a well-established safety net, and I realize that taxes (when not being dumped into unnecessary military endeavors) serve society as a whole. Probably the only things that conservatives agree with me are gun rights and the fact that spending needs to be cut (in addition to raised taxes, of course). The only reason I am attracted to the men's rights movement as opposed to feminism is because I believe that no one should ever be discriminated against. I prefer to call myself an egalitarian rather than an MRA, but that doesn't mean I'm not entirely sympathetic with the MRM or that I'm not utterly disenchanted with what Feminism has become.

LonelyCynic · 2012-11-17T01:09:05+00:00

Liberal Democrat and poor student here. I'm for socialized medicine (one with an actual pubic option), higher taxes on the wealthy, a huge cut to our defense budget, free lunches for the poor children in schools, more regulation on wallstreet shadiness, high EPA standards, and free college education for all Americans. I'm also an MRA.

Title	Are you guys... the rich?
Author	radrler
Upvotes	19
Comments	111
Date	November 16, 2012 4:31 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/13ayma/are_you_guys_the_rich/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/are-you-guys-the-rich.1009073 https://theredarchive.com/post/1009073

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