I finally get it..

Mylon · 2015-07-06T12:27:47+00:00

I think there has been a pronounced asymmetry in the way society has challenged its own preconceptions surrounding gender roles. We've spent a lot of time, at least in the developed world, examining and challenging female gender-normativity. But we've done so much less for men. Oddly, it seems perfectly acceptable these days to rail against the constraining effects of gender roles on women, and then, in the next breath, to tell some guy that he needs to "man up." Good on you for noticing the inconsistency. Cheers.

ahatabat · 2015-07-06T15:38:29+00:00

"I gotta tell you, I’m envious of women. I’m not saying your problems get solved but at least they’re taken seriously. There’s 1-800 numbers, there’s ribbons, there’s groups—people give a shit. Anything happens to a guy, it’s just considered funny." - Bill Burr

TheCitizenAct · 2015-07-06T12:58:40+00:00

I've never been a feminist but the day 'I got it' and started to get gradually more annoyed with the complete alienation of male narratives from society was the day I watched that video on the view, where Sharon Osbourne and a group of women laughed hysterically about a woman in the US who chopped her husband's penis off.

That was the day I realised the pendulum had shifted far too far. Unfortunately, the more I've read and the more I go through life with my 'gender reversal' hat on, the more I come to realise just how far it has swung in the wrong direction.

Nonetheless, welcome aboard. It's a lot more challenging over here, people don't just accept everything you say as if it's sacrosanct but then again, it's a lot more liberating, too. You can actually believe in what you stand for rather than the pre-conceived, prejudicial narratives society and the MSM subjects us to.

iainmf · 2015-07-06T10:25:33+00:00

Welcome to the dark side. Please advise your local patriarchy chapter of your defection. You should be able to find your way to the kitchen, and please start making sandwiches at your earliest convenience.

But seriously. Bro fist.

goatsandbros · 2015-07-06T13:34:25+00:00

Thank you, sister :)

It's a good feeling to know that people understand. I for a long time had a cynical view of some women's issues, due largely to the exclusive focus on them; but they're real just like men's issues (and despite what remains of my cynicism, I try to take a fair view). When folks like you express the things that you have, it not only encourages me about men's issues, but makes me more interested in women's, too. Although I'm somewhat ashamed to admit that I've had a jaded perspective (real issues are important, regardless of how I or anyone else feels about them), I feel blessed that people like you are around to help bring back balance to my views, from time to time.

When we all work together, we can move toward accomplishing a lot at making the world a better place, for everyone.

rbrockway · 2015-07-06T13:34:39+00:00

Welcome to the fold.

If you talk about men's rights at all, even online, be prepared for a tirade of vitriolic, poorly informed and sometimes incoherent, verbal abuse.

Not wanting to scare you but many people have a deep seated reflex reaction to shout down anyone who dares to criticise feminism or suggest that men have gender-specific problems. This phenomenon occurs among both men and women.

jcoe · 2015-07-06T17:25:37+00:00

I was doing my original assessment with my therapist a few years back and she asked me a question if I had any traumatic experiences growing up. I told her that when I was seven, I was raped by my babysitter who was a high school girl at the time. She paused and looked at me, and said "anything else?" as if this was of no significance. I can't say that it was directly attributed to me being a man in his late 20's at the time, but I would be willing to bet if I would have been a woman, I would have received a different response.

Hypersapien · 2015-07-06T15:16:38+00:00

There was a female author who disguised herself as a man for 18 months to see how men were treated. At the end, after weighing the pros and cons of each, she concluded that women actually have it better off in our society.

augizzz999 · 2015-07-06T12:48:50+00:00

Brought a tear to my eye. Welcome to the sub.

Hamakua · 2015-07-06T13:33:10+00:00

The "gender politics world" is about to get a whole lot larger after your revelation and you could spend years reading up on it and chasing that rabbit down the hole only to scratch the surface.

That said, your opening post really reminded me of the situation with Norah Vincent.

20/20 18 minute expose - Self made man - Norah Vincent 18 minutes

Norah Vincent changed herself to appear as a man to "infiltrate" the men's world. Some of her insights really punctuate the theme of your revelation.

Anyway, thanks for the open mind and welcome to the "dark side".

GameBreak · 2015-07-06T13:39:11+00:00

This was very nice to read :) good for you.

klocwerk · 2015-07-06T15:39:31+00:00

Best tl;dr evar.

xpoizone · 2015-07-06T15:43:04+00:00

My heart feels lighter after reading this. Thanks.

mycatatemyface · 2015-07-06T14:32:59+00:00

womens and mens rights

Now imagine if we could have a subreddit so progressive that it would be named r/womensandmensrights (with the according, truly egalitarian content)!!! How awesome would that be?!?!

letsgetrandy · 2015-07-06T14:33:19+00:00

* Slow clap*

Coffeechipmunk · 2015-07-06T13:11:56+00:00

Welcome to the dark side, bathroom is on the right, and party is on the left.

2015-07-06T15:49:05+00:00

Thank you, sincerely.

SuperDadMan · 2015-07-06T16:53:12+00:00

My daugher has been raised solely by a single dad, and she has a younger brother, and she just gets this. She doesn't want to be treated like a fragile little flower who has no control over her feelings, and she gets pissed when her little brother get made fun of because he's more emotional than her. She's watched my struggles just trying to be involved as a dad because I'm her only parent. She is truly a gender-equalist, and I couldn't be prouder, and it makes me happy to see other females see through modern day 'feminism' and realize that it's about something other than actual gender equality.

L0gic1o1 · 2015-07-06T13:19:01+00:00

http://imgur.com/gallery/FvSdvRJ

2015-07-06T13:33:08+00:00

Welcome to the fold!

Zerei · 2015-07-06T17:16:19+00:00

I have been putting myself in the situation that the common issues of Mens Rights appear, and how I would feel. I would be fucking pissed off. So I get it

Its easy, a little empathy goes a long way... People just don't put themselves on other people's shoes anymore. Had a very big discussion about this on college, my lefitist professor insisted that only black people could fight for black people's rights and we should stfu, and only gay people could advocate for gay people's rights and all that because if we didn't live it we couldn't understand it.. fuck that, empathy exists for a reason, we CAN understand other people's issues and struggles... its easy all you need is to want that...

tonster181 · 2015-07-06T16:38:35+00:00

There are women's issues that are legitimate and there are men's issues that are legitimate as well. I think seeing both sides is important. Most of the time the issues don't even conflict, so I see no reason you can't be a feminist and a mens' rights activist at the same time. I'm glad you see that it isn't all roses on either side of the fence.

Reverse_Baptism · 2015-07-06T17:00:50+00:00

It's good to see someone else come over to our side. I'm place myself in the same category as you, someone who is fighting for the rights of everyone, not just women or men. That's why I don't believe in feminism, it's like they're saying that only women face issues in their lives, and that we shouldn't look at the stuff men deal with. There's also too many people claiming to be feminists that actually just use that title to make hateful comments towards men and society.

2015-07-06T17:36:38+00:00

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2015-07-06T17:42:03+00:00

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Raudskeggr · 2015-07-06T17:44:33+00:00

I think more and more people are undergoing your transformation. There is still a lot to do for women... Especially in places like the middle East. But the nature of the discussion needs to shift to one of human rights and gender egalitarianism. Because half the population are being ignored.

The problem with feminism is it became a doctrine. Almost like a religion, it has ideology and doctrine that people are indoctrinated with through our education system, and to question even part of that means you're questioning the whole thing.

Combine that with the fact that feminism is a business now. With huge national organizations taking both donations and government dollars, and they're naturally going to be resistant to competition or anything that potentially threatens the revenue stream.

Another element is how our culture is generally a very selfish one. It's easy for women to be feminists. It allows a high degree of validation for one's own insecurities, and presents something to blame for one's problems. And when acting in one's own interest becomes inseparable from supporting an absolute moral good, that just fans the flames more.

Hibria · 2015-07-06T17:59:11+00:00

Im glad there are women like you, ive fully given up on marriage and reproduction out of fear. Maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel?

scanspeak · 2015-07-06T20:03:14+00:00

Let me guess. You have a son.

SilencingNarrative · 2015-07-06T21:09:04+00:00

Thanks for caring, thanks for sharing, and thanks for not using a throwaway.

Your post made my day.

To answer a rhetorical question of yours:

When did it become a "only a girl problem" in every situation?

Since before mankind had spoken language, men occupied the position of disposability. Their main usefulness to society was their ability to provide for, and protect (absorb violence on behalf of), women. A man that refused to do that was cast out.

The main usefulness to society of women was their ability to bear, and raise, children. A woman that refused to do that was cast out.

Society could not have had the same sort of compassion for men that it had for women, or it would have to let men off of the disposability hook. Any society that had done such a thing would not have survived to the modern day. It would have been overrun by its neighbors and absorbed into the culture of male disposability.

With the modern world being a much safer place to live than the bulk of history, male disposability no longer makes sense. The society that bears the most children does not conquer the world, the one that educates them to a high level while maintaining a highly productive economy does.

Old habits die hard, however, and male disposability is so ingrained in modern culture that the forces upholding it are not about to roll over and give up. Its going to be a long, bitter, struggle to close the empathy gap.

Feminism is just one of the many forces that seek to protect male disposability and turn it toward their own ends. Traditionalists are another. Between the various flavors of each you have the bulk of society's power base.

2015-07-07T05:50:07+00:00

can we stop treating girls like little delicate flowers and men like they have to grow the fuck up in every single damn situation?

Hear, hear!

raxical · 2015-07-06T15:15:37+00:00

Awesome. Go to youtube and listen to some Karen straughn. Seriously, she's great.

And if you want to keep going, go listen to some Steven pinker.

va3zai · 2015-07-06T15:22:18+00:00

Welcome.

I think this really sums up what needs to be said some times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFoBaTkPgco

2015-07-06T15:46:39+00:00

This sort of battle between the sexes is probably a rather old concept, really, except that now we have an ideology in our universities and legal systems dictating this exact concept, turning men in the media into 'deadbeat dads', and women and children into 'families'.

Anyway, your nearest patriarchal chapter will teach you your oath of internalised misogyny at the next summit. Welcome.

B666B · 2015-07-06T18:43:05+00:00

What's crazy to me is how we've made "equality" so unequal. Shouldn't be this difficult for people.

Razvedka · 2015-07-06T18:58:01+00:00

You'll catch flak for this, but welcome aboard.

It's always so refreshing to have a feminist defect like this, and even to make it public. Really shows how you feel about it all.

Another voice added to the choir.

Corsaer · 2015-07-06T18:59:31+00:00

So, I am officially removing my title as a feminist, and I am a womens and mens rights person.

It's shorter and easier to say you're an egalitarian. :-)

Just be prepared for people to still insist on labeling you a feminist, and when you deny it, that you're an MRA or misogynist.

MrFanciful · 2015-07-06T19:19:35+00:00

Congratulations, you're an egalitarian like the majority of people here

Mythandros · 2015-07-06T19:49:23+00:00

Being able to put yourself mentally (and honestly) into the role of someone else gives a great deal of perspective. It's not done enough. Thanks.

kehlder · 2015-07-06T20:13:27+00:00

Thank you.

Black_caped_man · 2015-07-06T20:22:54+00:00

I'm late but I'll give this a shot.

When did it become a "only a girl problem" in every situation?

Possibly when political feminism started to gain recognition or even since it's very birth. It depends on how you want to view it. Many people and pretty much all feminists love to lean on the fact that feminism was apparently responsible for giving women the vote. It's considered the first "women's issue" and also the first one to be solved. However it was never a "women's issue" it was always a "people issue" or more likely a class issue.

I'm not sure how much you have looked around at things but you'll probably soon learn that first of all women have pretty much never (in modern western history) been kept away from the vote legally. The vote was based on the amount you paid in taxes and stuff like that and was thus given out to "households" and not people themselves. Yes men were most often the heads of the households and so they were the ones who went to vote and they voted for their entire households. I also think you are aware of the power a woman can have over her man and I don't think it was any less prevalent in those days.

Anyways when younger men were given the vote in America it was because of conscription and the draft. Because young men were sent away to fight a war and die for a country in which they had no say in at all. So in order to not have an uprising and mass deserters but also to justify the draft itself they were given one vote each.

Now when the Suffragettes campaigned for women to have the vote they campaigned for upper class women. Not black women, not poor women, but rich white women. What a lot of people miss is that there was already a group that was campaigning for all people to have the vote, regardless of sex or race, they were the suffragists and pretty much an unspoken page in history.

This is also considered the birth of political feminism, when the suffragettes got their will through it didn't stop there. However the only sight they had were on women and their problems. There is nothing inherently wrong with that because naturally women did face a lot of problems, but none of them were really aware of the fact that they omitted half of the human population in their world-view.

This is the very root of the problem and something that is extremely important for any movement advocating for someones rights to be aware of. I'm not as well read in feminist history so I don't really know when the concept of gendered problems first really appeared in writing, but the vote was definitely marketed as such.

Nowadays the one thing that you can probably get most feminists to agree on is the fact that a lot of issues are "gendered". Something that is born from the history I just described. They looked for problems that women faced and only that, which then made them conclude that women face these problems because they are women.

This is why I believe that feminism is broken at its core and always has been. The MRM is a little different in that we live in a world where we are constantly reminded of womens plight and the issues women face. The main reason why we can't work together with feminists though is that most MRA's don't consider issues to be gendered. If they can and do happen to both sexes/genders then they are by definition not gendered. And since gender today refers not to ones physical sex you can't even bring in issues that relate directly to one type of genitals.

So yeah, that's my thoughts on the matter.

2015-07-06T20:37:49+00:00

That's why I call myself egalitarian, instead of something-ist.

Otter_Actual · 2015-07-06T20:48:39+00:00

As long as you don't believe the 77 cents for every dollar thing

DarkestJ · 2015-07-06T20:50:34+00:00

Yeah, we just can't win no matter what. No point in even getting pissed about it because that'll result in us raping various women, burning churches, skewering babies, etc.

We're a bad bunch. Don't get mixed up with us.

Eunoic · 2015-07-06T21:09:27+00:00

The problem for me arises when issues like sexual violence - that shouldn't be segregated based on gender is, and furthermore through this segregation real victims are cast aside because they don't fit the proper description - female. It sickens me.

koji8123 · 2015-07-06T21:18:37+00:00

You give me hope that perhaps even more feminists may widen their view. Welcome to the sub, coffee--pot; I hope you enjoy your stay.

inspiringpornstar · 2015-07-06T21:20:49+00:00

Whenever someone scoffs at the idea of mensrights, that just goes to show that it's not even being considered. Not saying that its the same base placement in society vs. Historically but whenever someone's rights weren't considered in the past their rights were being abused. That's the fear that I have for fellow men now and in the future

EvolvingRedneck · 2015-07-06T21:45:51+00:00

It's always refreshing to see one who shakes off the dogmatic shackles of ideology. It may seem that a portion of the articles/posts are people complaining, but some of us need to vent now and then. A good portion of men here have Ben in bad relationships, been stripped of parental rights, and are still financial servants to their ex. Unlike some factions, say radical feminists, I won't demand you adopt a label as much of society still hears the words "men's rights" and laughs. Just do your research, study logic, and you will be in a better position should you dare engage in conversations with radicals. They do make posts here occasionally demanding we submit to feminism. Some track the posts here to use in their echo-hate chambers.

ohms_law · 2015-07-06T22:31:08+00:00

Thank you for sharing.

Francois_Rapiste · 2015-07-06T22:39:41+00:00

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capitan_canaidia · 2015-07-06T22:50:57+00:00

Thank you

Estephe · 2015-07-06T22:52:49+00:00

I’d like to recommend this collection of quotes (1904-53). It is an eye opener, to say the least. “A Woman’s Voice” http://unknownmisandry.blogspot.com/search/label/A%20Woman's%20Voice

omnomdrugs · 2015-07-06T23:43:59+00:00

After being brought up in public schools without a wise/strong male role model, it took me quite a while to realize that I wasn't the horrible rape monster that they told me I was.

People say all kinds of really unforgivable things to young men.

stop_stalking_me · 2015-07-07T00:57:32+00:00

sometimes men like to have a good cry. Its rather therapeutic.

As a man who is not ashamed to cry, I can confirm this

cuteman · 2015-07-07T01:23:05+00:00

Boys and girls. Men and women are two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other. Just like you wouldn't want a girl to get raped, you wouldn't want a boy to be falsely accused.

I don't understand how people can acknowledge, appreciate and go out of your way to support one while ignoring the plight of the other despite logical and valid claims. You'd have to be wilfully ignorant to do so.

Now women are 60%+ in college as well as boys falling behind in K-12. Over compensating for imbalances is creating an even bigger problem. Implicit Affirmative action in academic and corporate STEM isn't helping either as opening a window in that case has closed the door on many others.

slideforlife · 2015-07-07T01:31:43+00:00

bigotry of any stripe is lazy, cowardly, and ignorant.

circlhat · 2015-07-07T17:02:02+00:00

So yes, can we stop treating girls like little delicate flower

This happens when its convenient for the girl, if she wants to be all powerful , she is and you must respect that, if she falls flat on her face, than you have to treat her like a delicate flower or you will be labeled a misogynistic

I like to be tough and sometimes men like to have a good cry.

No, well if I cry I'm still a man, but women want stoic man for relationships , you are doing a man a disservice by saying he will still be viewed as the type of men women have relationships with.

2015-07-06T17:05:32+00:00

Alright. You're on our side noobie. Let me freshen you up on the type of arguments everyone here is tired of seeing, just so you know what's coming.

1) The MRM does not care about minorities. Including but not limited to, gay people and black people. Because as we all know, black men and gay men are not real men and they never face any of the issues discussed here...apparently.

2) But the definition of feminism is!

3) That's not "real" feminism!

4) But the wage gap!

5) Proof of the patriarchy? Look at science fields, they are more dominated by men than women. Huh? What's that? Millions of dollars have been poured in to helping women get in to science along with other acts yet women still aren't going in there? Women just aren't interested? Yeah, right, the only reason women aren't interested is because society tells women they're not good enough. #Checkmate

6) More proof about patriarchy? Uhm, "mankind"? #Checkma- wait what did you say? "Mankind. Man. Woman. Wo-man. Man."? I have no idea what you're trying to say. "In old English, males were called "werman" and females "wyfman". "Man" was gender neutral, and has been in use in our language to describe people, in general, since that time". Oh shut up.

There's more, trust me, but I can't really think of anything else. Anybody else want to further this?

Edit: I don't understand what's so hard to understand about what I just typed. Here's all you need to find out what I meant. "You're on our side" "freshen up" "arguments everyone here is tired of seeing, just so you know what's coming". As in, you're on our side now, meaning you'll most likely see these 6 arguments when...well, arguing.

2015-07-06T13:13:38+00:00

When did it become a "only a girl problem" in every situation?

When it became evident that the total shits given by people are limited, I think. When empathy became a zero sum game.

I tend to think that is why rather than noting that the wage gap figure as popularly known is presented inaccurately and the real disparity not explained by any mitigating factor is 3-8% depending on source, this community instead is prone to saying the whole thing is a myth.

The problem, in short, is that we willfully blind ourselves to mistreatment of one group in order to strengthen our argument that "more must be done" for the group we ourselves want to help.

I say keep the feminist label and be an example of a better one. This community calls them toxic, but I bet if more who observed the flaws stuck around and were great examples, it would have less cause to do so.

Snowince · 2015-07-06T14:11:42+00:00

However, being a man by society means stfu, deal with it and if you have a problem well, tough titty.

This is quite a privilege actually, having your own responsibility and agency granted to you, free from gynocentrism, whiteknighting or other sorts of cowtowing like affirmative action.

Wargame4life · 2015-07-06T14:49:19+00:00

ITT: Pathetic White Knights swarming around someone simply for stating they "agree"

This place really is becoming a total joke, its just becoming a giant moron convention for people to turn into a friendship club, where objective truth doesn't matter all that matters is "you show respect" which ironically is exactly what i hate about feminism.

if you cannot define defend or debunk based on objective merit and critical thought and instead use your ego and "feels" then this place is just becoming cancer.

anyone can make an top post here by simply appealing to the fragile ego of the bitter emasculated population of this subreddit.

"hey guys you are awesome, i used to be against you but actually you really do have a point and you were right, life must be so much harder than i gave you credit for and you all must be really strong for simply living, i wish i could hug everyone of you because what you are going through is terrible and we need to end the descrimination you experience because you all matter" etc

Mensrights becomes more like feminism everyday and peoples victim complex and sense of "reality" distorted ever further.

there is more value to all of us in an intelligent objective feminist arguing against us using objective evidence and arguments than hundreds of people simply saying "i agree well done for being men"

deadpolice · 2015-07-07T20:39:31+00:00

How narcissistic do you have to be to make an entire post about how you're "not a feminist anymore?" Good for you! No one fucking cares. Go circlejerk your internalized misogyny with the mens rights activists, you won't be missed.

cynicalsimon · 2015-07-07T01:23:45+00:00

no respect. You were a previous feminist

Wargame4life · 2015-07-06T16:52:17+00:00

Welcome to mensrights where logic, reason, consistency or even content doesn't matter provided you show approval and are "one of us"

who wants critical evidence based reasoning to spoil our victim complex.

sometime i would genuinely love to see what people here look like, i would bet every penny i have that they are "below average" in conventional metrics of good health success and attractiveness

Wargame4life · 2015-07-06T11:08:44+00:00

that's one way of looking at it here is another:

If you imagine life as a "Gym" and our various life areas as different weight machines etc, women get help on the machines because they are perceived as weaker and less capable, hence when she lifts others help her and share her load, but men train alone and take the full weight and sometimes access to machines that the women cannot use (front line military).

On the surface this might seem like the guy is getting a shitty deal, and he is, but the improvement and the advancement the man has from this method means he gets bigger and better and more capable than the women who lives in this supported state of weakness.

from his POV she looks like she is having an easy ride and his workout is intense, and from her POV he is just concerned with her burden and how hard her weight is still and how much easier it would be if more people helped or that weights were lessened or removed completely.

It is definitely more unforgiving and lonely being a guy, but the result of that means better self improvement and the privilege of being able to be respected in the eyes of those you respect.

much like military training or a gym workout or even growing into adulthood, its a hard ride and much harder than just living in comfort, but once you take that ride the destination has more value and worth than not taking it.

i pity many women, because they revel and wallow in weakness and excuses. and doing that will never give them peace or happiness or any sense of achievement.

No amount of party friends or fashion or glitz or media/social attention will ever compare to the
genuine value and worth of a true bond between guys who respect each others capability and genuine true friendship, it happens in war, it happens with high stake high competition environments.

for men Respect is the universal currency, and respect and capability go hand in hand.

Title	I finally get it..
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	905
Comments	229
Date	July 6, 2015 10:09 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3cachm/i_finally_get_it/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-finally-get-it.976103 https://theredarchive.com/post/976103

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