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Male feminists, why?

_the_redditor__

November 8, 2021

177 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Male feminists, why?
Author	_the_redditor__
Upvotes	177
Comments	192
Date	November 8, 2021 9:42 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/qpa87l/male_feminists_why/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/male-feminists-why.1085272 https://theredarchive.com/post/1085272

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[–]dointhalaundry 82 points83 points84 points 2 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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i am an MRA and Anti-Feminist myself and i disagree with the comments here and i hope it doesn't represent the MRM.

As the general rule being an MRA ≠ Anti-Feminist. The MRM only criticises the Feminist Movement for its perceived misandrist narrative. And due to the fact that the MRM is not Anti-Feminist, and also, doesn't have a structured approach and thought to Feminism with it's members [of the MRM], then the MRM will be flexible and may change overtime on the approach and attitudes to Feminism since it doesn't even fit in a box of thought.

Some people are both MRA and Feminist too and that's totally okay.

If we don't fully agree of us being stereotyped as misogynistic, traditionalists, and "incels" by the Feminists, then we also shouldn't do the same thing that supports Feminism that people in the comments saying that they can't get laid, "simping" women, etc.

[–]nrvnsqr117 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't consider myself a male feminist because male feminists are rats and because, like you said, feminists are extremely misandrist. I support the advancement of womens' rights and equality in various spaces such as the workplace.

The thing many MRA-ers and feminists both miss is that the issues they both face are two sides of the same coin, fostered upon them by the expectations society sets for their gender. The issue is that many feminist issues fall hand-in-hand with the issues inherent to mens rights. Women want to stop being pigeonholed into homemakers? Well, that means that you'll have to stop expecting men to be the providers. Women don't want to primarily be valued for their looks? Well, then we're going to have to stop valuing men primarily for their social status and income. Women want to close the wage gap? Well, then you're going to have to A. Be willing to work the same hours men do on average and B. Take the dangerous jobs that men do.

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You forgot option 6. Acknowledging the problems of both men and women.

Ah yes, good feminists, dancing bears and not corrupt politics exist. Also does Santa Claus and unicorns.

Same goes for race. We need to tie hands to hands with each other and stop fighting our own, working class people, but turn towards the real enemy

No. We need to finally mind our own buisness and make life overall better. Like invent new tecs, colonise Mars and get rid of own psychological complexes, and stop looking for "enemies" to fight outside our own heads.

Who ever discriminated women in Western society aside from thin layer of upper class in 18 century? Stop pulling modern attitudes on past history, please. Saying about "historical opression" of women is like complaining about slave-owning in Ancient Rome. There were almost zero influential civilizations at that time, who did not used slave workforce. Things change, norms change, so using norms of one time to describe things of other time is just plain stupid.

Or another attempt to rape history into narrative.

Wich is just plain wrong and stupid. Also dangerous.

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I'll recount my own personal journey. When I started university, most of our humanities lecturers were extreme leftists, some of them openly Marxist. Luckily I studied sciences and these were just a few credits I had to take. Scientists have no time to waste on garbage.

At that time I was reading a book and at one point the author wrote: "If you are not a socialist at 20 you are heartless; if you are still a socialist at 40 you are brainless". I compare this to feminism. I chose to take a credit given by a radical feminist. I wanted to find out what made her tick. She should have shown gratitude towards me and the other guy who chose her credit because we were the only 2 males in a group of some 50 women. But instead of gratitude, she used to pick on me and in the final grade she gave me an F. That ended my love affair with feminism.

[–]dungeonmonkey69 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]cwdii 21 points22 points23 points 2 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

Because feminism isn't all "reee we hate men we must purge them from existence", and to think that it is really shows that you're just terminally online and/or stuck in 2016.

I don't call myself a feminist, because that does seem preachy and attention seeking, but by policy I can be described as such. That doesn't immediately make me "anti men", because I also advocate for men's rights aswell (why tf do you think I'm on this sub?). Both men and women have valid issues in society and to be exclusive to one rights movement over another because "Ew men bad" or "reeee feminism red hair triggered lol" is asinine and only serves to widen the divide.

Do toxic feminists exist? Absolutely, and they should be bullied off of any sort of platform they have. Anyone who advocates for the empowerment of a specific group at the cost of another does not deserve a place to speak. But to reject an entire movement over the insane preachings of what is really a minority of people is stupid and absolutist. "But a few bad apples spoils the bunch" no, test the apples, find out which ones are bad, and keep the good ones.

Actually have a respectful conversation with some people outside of the men's rights circle. Learn what their struggles are, and have some empathy. Get out of the echo chamber you're clearly stuck in and realise that being pro woman and pro men are not mutually exclusive.

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[+]cwdii -7 points-6 points-5 points 2 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

Nobody here is antiwoman

I see a LOT of woman hating on this sub, especially as of recently, so to say that no one here is anti woman is just false, sorry.

The thing is even one groups issues are highlighted more and given more empathy and sympathy and support while the biggest of problems of the other group is ignored or even worse shown as something that is not that bad or that is very rare

And I'm not denying that. Again, men and women both have valid issues, and men's issues are typically ignored by a lot of people. My point is that being pro feminist is not being anti men, because you can still be a feminist and be a men's rights activist. There is no "one or the other", and to put across that it is only pushes division. I am a supporter of men's rights (hence why I'm here) and I want to help bring light to the issues that men face, and have it as visible and spoken about as much as women's issues, as is fair.

why few of us here are the way we are

That's not an excuse. Why be opposed to literally half the population of the planet simply because of the actions of a relative few? Denounce the few and move on from it, don't extend the issue to the rest of the world

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I find it funny how the person with godawful grammar is telling me what word to use

I'm not an egalitarian, because I believe people are different, and have different needs depending on who they are, where they came from etc. For example, someone who is disabled should be entitled to more passive benefits than a healthy man, because they are physically disadvantaged.

Feminism at this point is making sure that where men above and doing good are equalised and where men are doing bad equality in any sense is not considered

That isn't true, which is what I've been saying. Actual feminism isn't about bringing men down, it's about bringing women up. Bringing men up with them isn't a concern, because they're a female organisation. That's what Men's rights is for, to bring men up. Men's rights doesn't concern itself with bringing women up with them, because that isn't their goal.

The feminist and men's rights movements need to work together, not be enemies. We both want the same thing, to be treated fairly as individuals without any bias against us due to our gender, but neither party will achieve that unless they stop bickering and just work alongside one another

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[–]cwdii -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Male military casualties and fatalities are reduced due to women wanting to join the armed forces, reducing the reliance on male applicants, which is a direct result of feminism

Men now have more reproductive control due to feminism advocating for abortion

Women being more active and able to progress in the workplace (as a result of feminism) removes the need for men to be the main breadwinner in a family, allowing them to spend more time with their kids.

About my grammar it's my second language and I do not use it regularly to communicate to others. Still I don't understand why me not speaking grammatically correct statements has to do with me voicing my opinion

I gathered that English wasn't your primary language, which is why I didn't bring it up until you said

The word you're looking for is egalitarian

Because it wasn't. Lmao

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Stop thinking about “Me! Me! Me!” All the time and start thinking about THEM

Why on this good Earth would we do that? There is so much wrong with this statement/demand.

First off the reason for the “me me me” stance, as you refer to it, is because of the endless lip service feminists pay to male issues. “Feminism is for everyone/is about lifting up both genders”.

It’s not all, but a sizeable amount decry the need for men’s movements due to the idea that feminism is pulling double-duty and handling the concerns of both genders...only to become irate when asked to actually back up those claims.

Second of all, feminists regularly demand—yes demand not ask men to be allies and aid in their various causes. Sounds a lot like “What can you do for me?” to my ears. Even those who regularly curse and vilify men have no problem using moral blackmail and outright anger to call for aid when backed into a corner.

So to recap the question about what you do for us is pretty long overdue. If that isn’t answerable then I’d at least like to know why it is expected of us to be an endless submissive wellspring of labor, numbers and resources for your causes with no reciprocity in sight.

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Searching for “good feminism” isn’t a search designed to identify good/egalitarian outcomes produced by feminism. It’s a “gotcha” search. There are feminists who actually achieved good/egalitarian outcomes, i.e., ensuring legal and institutional equality (e.g., giving women the right to be considered a person and not the property of her husband, the right to vote, the right to own property, the cultural power in the 60s and 70s to get an education and a career outside the home). Yet in any articles or studies that would be searchable, those achievements would never be described as “good feminism” and the feminists who achieved them would never be described as “good feminists.” They would just be described as feminists.

Looking for wording that is unique to your specific subculture and then claiming victory when you don’t find that wording is the epitome of bad faith and/or faulty logic.

[–]tenchineuro 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Searching for “good feminism” isn’t a search designed to identify good/egalitarian outcomes produced by feminism.

Really? I've never tried it.

It’s a “gotcha” search.

No, it's a game you are playing. Pardon me if I decline to play.

(e.g., giving women the right to be considered a person and not the property of her husband,

This was never true however. Karen Straughan has researched this at length.

the right to vote

This is mostly wrong, in the US women had voted in most state and local elections at least since the 13 colonies. The only lacked one vote, for the presidential election and unlanded men lacked that vote as well.

As for your claims of equality, women got the vote with no strings, men paid by the draft and millions lost their lives in WW1 and WW2, at which time feminists in the UK were busy handing out white feathers to shame men into joining (what this has to do with woman's suffrage I don't understand). But at least it interrupted their domestic terrorism against the UK.

And women sill are not subject to the draft, where are the feminists fighting for true equality.

And it was men who have woman the vote they lacked.

Look, you vastly oversimplify.

the cultural power in the 60s and 70s to get an education and a career outside the home).

They always had these options.

Look, feminism is not now and has never fought for equality, when they wrote the Violence Against Women Act, they specifically denied male victims any funding or recognition as victims. When some violent women were still getting arrested they introduced the Duluth Model into the VAWA. What is the Duluth Model you might ask?

Duluth is predicated on the "patriarchal terrorism" paradigm of partner violence. That is, men beat their female partners in order to assert masculine dominance within their relationships. Their motives are to conform to patriarchal norms and to reify a the patriarchal social/political/cultural order of male dominance and female subordination within the home.
Under this faulty model, women cannot, as a conceptual matter, perpetrate partner abuse. If they hit their male partners, it was in self defense. If they hit first, or are the only partner who hits, they are doing it within the context of "violent resistance" against presumed emotional or psychological abuse on his part.

The VAWA also requires mandatory arrest policies. Combine mandatory arrest and the Duluth Model and you are literally requiring police to arrest male DV victims of females.

Look, I know that to you, this is equality. You literally don't seem to care what feminism actually does or how they accomplish their goals, apparently domestic terrorism is fine with you. So what more can be said?

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In the interest of satisfying curios posters, although I have a strong interest in men's issues, my stance on feminism is (on the whole) quite pro (with caveats). I identify as egalitarian.

In fact, I hope that someday we can all just agree that all bodies and identities have particular serious psychosocial issues. I think Menslib is too pro feminist (it doesn't acknowledge the rampant misandry and minimizing of men's issues within feminism) and Men's Rights too anti (there isn't enough interest in making friends with feminism and acknowledging the nuance of non-cishet male issues including women's issues). I get why each sub leans the way it does.

Still, I long for a more egalitarian space than either Menslib or Men's Rights provide, but I haven't particularly enjoyed the egalitarian sub.

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I’ve never mailed bombs to people, so you can drop the hyperbole. I don’t know the specific circumstances of the “first-wave feminist mail bombs” you’re alleging (you don’t really seem the type to provide a link or cite anything in support of your argument), but I’ll bite on the hypothetical.

Do I think it’s okay for people to mail bombs to other people? Yes, if it’s warranted. But I believe there are only certain circumstances that warrant violence. For someone who is being institutionally oppressed (e.g., having his or her civil rights withheld, such as the right to vote), if that person has exhausted all other options, including all legal and peaceful means at his or her disposal, including repeated attempts to use peaceful protest and civil disobedience, and where violent acts have a high likelihood of achieving strategic goals given the particular political climate, then I support that individual using violence as a form of resistance.

But I don’t see the use of violence as a tenet of first-wave feminism any more than I see Elliot Rodger murdering innocent people as a tenet of men’s rights activism. Your attempt to use an alleged specific tactic to tar an ideology is either in bad faith or childishly ignorant.

As for the Duluth Model, I oppose that. To the extent the Duluth Model is categorized as part of second-wave feminism, I reject that part of second-wave feminism. Personally, I would say that the Duluth Model is a product of late second-wave feminism, but it did not take hold until third-wave feminism.

[–]reddut_gang 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00OZ3HUVA/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1&linkCode=sl1&tag=iktnweb-21&linkId=25b6dae8537b762785db6883a2e72917&language=en_GB

If you insist, but I really doubted you'd need a citation. I wouldn't make that outlandish of a claim with such conviction if there wasn't some basis to it.

Has Elliott Rodgers actually ever claimed to be an MRA, or pro men's equality? As far as I'm concerned, it's mostly feminists trying to make leaps and stretches to link him to the movement.

I'm not "tarring" your movement by pointing to a couple of terrorists. If I wanted to "tar" feminism, there are far more effective examples to use as ammunition. But I take issue with you declaring to be a first and second wave feminist as if they were:

1) Better than their future counterparts. To me they are not.

2) A perfect representation of what you think feminism is.

I don't care what you believe feminism to be at the moment. But I'm troubled by the constant misinformation being spread that paints the suffragettes and second-wave feminists as saints. They are far from and I argue that they and their ideologies at the time are far worse than third wave and fourth wave feminism. At least the latter, most of time, does not act on their incessant hatred of men.

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[–]reddut_gang 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh, so you can only be part of a movement if you claim to be part of it?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this or at least involved heavily in organized events by the movement. I'm also 99% sure Mr. Rodgers has done neither.

There are many MRAs on this sub who issue misogynist diatribes much like Elliot Rodger’s manifesto.

Ok? At least they didn't actually hurt anyone. It's identical to #killallmen feminists. And I don't care much for them either, just the double standard that bothers me.

Frankly, I couldn’t give a fuck what you think about feminism.

Feeling's mutual. Except you can't prove that they didn't bomb people, and you can't prove that they didn't make the duluth model. So, I don't know about you, but it's clear what I think is a little closer to the truth than what you think.

But instead of being inclusive

As in what? Racially inclusive. I'll let you in on a secret, I'm brown. And if you think men's rights is just white men's rights, you might wanna take a look at who suffers the most from false rape accusations. It isn't white men.

people like you are citing outliers

How do you know they are outliers? Because I see this same kind of nonsense when feminists point to RBG as an example of why feminism is supposedly for men as well. Like, if my two examples are outliers, is your one example of feminists helping men also an outlier?

And I don't have two outliers. I have an entire goddamn list that can't fit the 1000 word comment threshold with sources for each and every one of them. These aren't outliers. Once is an anomaly, twice is a pattern. 100s of times? There's gotta be a common denominator here, and guess what, it's feminism.

You can't even say it's fighting fire with fire. Feminists launch smear campaigns attempting connect these people to the MRM, a movement they've never claimed to have been in support of or ideologically supported. But my list? Hahaha, you wanna tell me Valerie Solonas isn't a feminist? And that it would be a stretch to connect her to it?

using gotcha hyperbolic rhetoric,

It's not hyperbolic, or a gotcha. They literally did bomb people, I'm not exaggerating that. And it's not a gotcha, it's just showing you why first wave feminists were not good people.

covering your ears if you hear things you don’t like

Like what? I've kept my ears open, and all I've heard is apologetic bullshit.

Does really matter if a feminist claims to believe in both "men and women's equality" when every tenet of their movement claims otherwise? Does one random person on the internet hold more significance than the countless organizations and influential feminists that have spouted sexist rhetoric and done morally reprehensible things? Do they hold more significance than the countless sexist legislation that has been passed by feminists that still have horrible effects today?

No offense, but these randoms on the internet don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. In fact I question how many of them are actually ideologically in favour of men and women's equality seeing as the only time they ever bring up the former is when it combative against men's rights advocacy, or as a deflection against accusations of feminism being sexist.

alienating your natural allies.

Natural allies? I'll tell you what feminism naturally is. Feminism is naturally a movement people pissed off at things that didn't even happen in their lifetime or some perceived inequality like the wage gap. I've talked to people who genuinely think women are victims of violent crimes more often, no doubt due to feminism constantly pushing a narrative through the media that women make up more victims of violent crime, even when it isn't true. It makes sense that if the only victims you ever see any outrage about are women, you'll think that most of the victims are women. I've seen manipulation of statistics in such a way that paint a radically different picture than what's actually being presented. And naturally, you have one of the sexes growing up thinking the other has it sooo much better when it isn't even close to true.

Naturally, feminism has nothing do with men. Artificially, it's become a hateful movement that is sexist towards men. But I question how artificial that reaction really is. From the start it's always been "liberating women from men" and not "liberating men and women from the confines of gender roles." It's always made gender equality an us vs them situation and driven their members to hold contempt for the opposite sex. It's always been intolerant, ignorant, hate-driven, and deceptive. And I do not care what you say regarding this. Your words can't change the past.

And if me pointing out the innumerable flaws and shortcomings of feminism, and the myriad of ways it has demonstrated its toxicity towards males has "alienated" you, then I bid you farewell. We do not want "allies" that cannot withstand criticism of a movement that deserves all the criticism it gets.

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Here's my honest opinion. Both genders have problems. People are always going to judge each other. It is difficult to compare each gender's pain, because one may fate better than the other in certain situations, but the other may fate better in the opposite situation. It depends on your perspective.

I'm not a feminist..and do agree that a lot of them are exaggerating to the point where men's gender equality issues have been in a way, ignored. (I do identify as trans/bigender btw) this is just my opinion. Take it as you will. You may ignore or berate me, but I do believe that we all have equality issues. After all, it is human nature to judge. I also believe that while having your own opinion is good, but one needs to also take a step back and see others' opinions, and consider them. Even if you don't agree with them, maybe you can come to a common understanding and both grow as a human being.

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I don't disagree that these are issues for men but I don't understand how feminism is the root cause of these issues.

Domestic abuse shelters for men. There are none. Men cant go to abuse shelters for women, they just get shunned, even if they are a minor with their mothers.

I agree there should be more domestic abuse for men (and women also). But isn't this an issue with the healthcare industry being all about profits while care comes secondary to this.

Infant Genitalia mutilation legal over the world. Not people not taking it seriously

Again, an issue but isn't this a religious issue? Hasn't every religious order been run by men who are definitely not the feminist kind lol.

Workplace related deaths, no saftey nets to protect men.

Again, it's an issue but how do feminists lead to guys dying on construction sites or on a farm.

A lot of men won't graduate college/enroll (not sure what the word actually is)

Again, I agree it's an issue but I don't feminists being the root cause of this.

Suicide, no one wants to help men.

A massive issue with both sexes. MH is still massively stigmatised but isn't this a healthcare issue and the fact that most people who are suicidal come from poor backgrounds. I also wouldn't say no one wants to help men but I understand what you're getting at.

If your next to kids, people assume your a pedophile, even if the kids are yours or your cousins.

I'm not sure what to say about this one. I don't think people assume you're a pedophile for standing by your kids but it's actually a new phenomenon - men looking after kids given the past role of the woman in the home. It's a weird one but I think it will become more normalised 10 or 20 years.

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Domestic abuse shelters for men do exist. No it doesn't change the stigma around male DA victims but to say the support isn't there is just flat out wrong, even if the support is limited. Men are typically more reserved and independent with their emotions so even if the support network was as large as it is for women, it wouldn't be used nearly as much. More support does need to be introduced, though, I agree with that

GM is a religious problem, one that isn't taken seriously because shit like circumcisions are always done in a safe manner. There's (a lot of the time, but not always) no risk from getting circumcised for men and some women even find it attractive. Compared to FGM, where actual organs are being harmed in the process and it completely destroys how that area works and looks, it's a non issue go most people. You can be opposed to it, fine, but circumcisions are generally fine to commit to, so long as they're done safely. Anything worse than circumcision isn't advocated for on a significant scale.

Preventable workplace deaths are not a men specific issue, they just affect men more because men typically work more dangerous jobs. Dangerous workplaces need to be made as safe as possible, but nowhere is risk free, and that's a reality we have to accept.

Not going to college is not an issue. Take it from someone who didn't and is now on a 6 figure salary, people don't go onto college/uni for a number of different reasons. Some people are just burnt out on institutionalised education and need a change of pace, some people can't work in a school environment, a family/financial situation might prevent them from moving forward. None of these are men specific issues either, and there isn't an active stigma around college saying "men can't do this this is a woman thing". Decided whether or not to go to college entirely depends on your situation, and a lot of guys figure that not going would be more beneficial to them in some way. It certainly was for me, anyway, skipping college and going straight into work gave me more opportunities than a lot of my degree holding friends.

The suicide point is the only fully valid one on the list. There isn't enough support for men regarding suicide or mental health in general, and that's something that needs to change. It also isn't something that feminism is opposed to, it just isn't talked about as much by feminists as it's not a women's issue, which I think is wrong.

This is not a widespread issue. At least not where I live, I don't know of anyone who's been assumed to be a pedophile simply because they were near a child, or near their own kids. Normally if a guy is around their kids or young family it's pretty obvious they're related in some way. Idk if you just pulled this out of your ass or this is a genuine issue where you live, but I've got no experience with it at all nor any evidence of it existing.

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circumcisions are always done in a safe manner.

Any number of body parts can be removed safely. That doesn't mean that it's fine to do.

I'm not interested in comparing the two, just know that the foreskin is the most sensitive part of the penis. (Full study.)

Also watch this presentation (for ~15 minutes) Dr. Guest discusses the innervation of the foreskin, how the most sensitive part of the penis is removed by circumcision, the mechanical function of the foreskin and its role in lubrication during sex, and the likelihood of decreased sexual pleasure for both male and partner.

And arguably the complication rate is literally 100%, since the foreskin which is the most sensitive part of the penis, and since circumcision is not medically necessary.

Only by ignoring the removal of the foreskin can a lower complication rate be claimed. Or complications be limited only to surgical complications.

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Okay imma answer this from my point of view on how in two years I went from a men’s rights activist who despised feminism. To a feminist who is still sympathetic to men’s issues. I think what opened my eyes to the feminist movement was unfortunately seeing my friends, girlfriend, and my mother who’s in a leadership position being treated poorly because of their sex. It was also hearing about the sheer sexual harassment that they’ve experienced. Also being a Texas resident it was seeing their reproductive rights being stripped away from them. It kinda made me realize/ better understand the feminist movement. I also didn’t want the women in my life to experience that hardship anymore, or face any discrimination based on their sex and so that’s when I became a feminist. At the end of the day women are still not provided the same treatment in some situations due to their sex. And I hate that that’s a truth and so I wanted to help advocate that a fellow human be treated better.

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Why are you supporting a movement that brought nothing but harm to your gender and taking pride in doing so? Why do you identify with the people that actively hate the likes of you?

The questioning here is so loaded that it feels as though you are attempting to bait an argument instead of actually looking to have meaningful discussion. It would be like asking "why are you a follower of r/MensRights when all the mods of the sub despise women?"

How could one even begin to answer that? It's too disingenuous. There is no way in hell this question is genuine when you're setting the parameters to make sure that the question is only answered in the way you want it to be answered, which would be to agree that feminism is designed to oppose men.

tl;dr - It's impossible to answer this question without also inciting debate, which suggests you aren't actually asking a question and are instead criticizing people through phony inquiring.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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