[CMV] Incels do not try hard enough.

nomnomponytail · 2016-06-21T01:32:18+00:00

Even in the "olden days" when most people got married, there was some that didn't. And it's a higher percentage than you think. Some people will never be sexually attractive or have the emotional toolbox to be a viable relationship prospect. Most of those people are men. Up until recently, we didn't have a platform (the internet) where we would have to deal with these people. Now we have that platform.

That being said, many, and possibly most of the young ones, are stressing about nothing and are unwilling to lower their standards to appropriate levels.

damaskrose · 2016-06-21T02:47:54+00:00

Eh, sort of. I think a lot of incels are probably afflicted with something called "learned helplessness". It's the same reason some abuse victims can't seem to leave their abusive partners:

Learned helplessness occurs when an animal is repeatedly subjected to an aversive stimulus that it cannot escape. Eventually, the animal will stop trying to avoid the stimulus and behave as if it is utterly helpless to change the situation. Even when opportunities to escape are presented, this learned helplessness will prevent any action.

For example, take a kid that's been bullied. At first, he'll try different things to avoid the bullying, like improving his hygiene, changing his clothes, and acting more like the cool kids. But his peers can still remember his past. Instead of bullying him for being nerdy, now they bully him for "trying too hard". Girls still reject him, because they still think of him as the loser. So, he goes back to his old ways, because it doesn't make much of a difference.

Now let's say he switches schools. The kids at his new school have no preconceived opinions of him. He could start his first day dressed like a normie, acting confident, and nobody would be able to tell the difference. But because of the learned helplessness, it doesn't even occur to him. He already believes he'll never be seen as normal, and gave up trying long ago.

So, I sort of agree with your post. Incels don't try hard enough, but it's because they can't. They believe they'll never be successful, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. They might benefit from counseling, but they'll never go because they've already decided it won't help. It's not logical, and it's very frustrating for friends and family of this type of person. But you can't really blame them for thinking this way, any more than you could blame an abuse victim for not leaving.

exit_sandman · 2016-06-21T08:10:55+00:00

I'll just quote a comment of mine from the TRP sub that also included the subject of incels, and why exactly they're incels (with the bolded part being the root of their problem).

I'll never understand guys who are content with women settling for them. That should wake you TF up, but then again these ARE beta/Bp/Cucks

It's hopelessness, lack of perspective, cluelessness and thirst combined.

A guy I know - and I wish I was making this up - was notoriously romantically unsuccessful. Now this in itself wouldn't be special, because I know a few others with a similar problem well into their late 20s... but he really took the cake when it came to compounding his own failure.

Now he wasn't bad looking as such, but he was fat, and, of course, didn't get any girl. I don't know whether he tried, though - I've never seen him talking to women or something of that sort, and I doubt that women actively approached him themselves. He probably had this weird idea that the dating game doesn't depend 95% on the guy and that women would do some legwork themselves (I assume this because I had the same idea back then).

Then he lost a lot of weight and went down from "fat" to "somewhat chubby". But, you guessed it, still no attention from girls. Probably no positive feedback as well. So we had a guy in his mid 20s, who did never get any romantic attention from women whatsoever and who probably was seriously at a loss about how to attract them, because he never got a useful roadmap for that endeavor.

What did he do? He started dating a woman who, from the looks of it, was 10 years his senior and already had 3 kids (this starts sounding like the plot of "the 40 year old virgin"). When a friend of mine cautiously asked him something along the lines of "WTF really?!" (only with more minced words), the answer was "look at me, I don't get anyone else".

To me, this is quite a tragedy. These guys aren't content. They're desperate. And they're desperate because they can't fathom that things might actually become better if they did the right things, and that the right things aren't actually that difficult to do once you know how.

That said, you are right - strictly speaking, most incels don't try hard enough to actually overcome their predicament. But this glosses over their problems that made sure that they got into their situation in the first place and all the psychological baggage they've amassed over time.

PemBayliss · 2016-06-21T01:14:48+00:00

I'll C your V.

I don't think if all incels gave maximum effort, they'd all improve. Most would, but not all.

And it also depends on the definition of "improvement". Feel better? Yeah. Look better? Maybe, probably. Make more money? Possibly. Get sex? Eh, maybe. Get a relationship? Now it's starting to get iffy.

Then there's the issue of effort vs. return. How much effort is worth the 1 or 2 SMV points he'll pick up by going to intense therapy, getting fit, revamping his wardrobe, getting more or different education/training/employment, and completely reordering his entire life? Is all that work really worth the meager 1 or 2 points it will net him? Is the time worth it? Before he can't get anything. Afterwards he has the chance of dating a 4 who will shit test him mercilessly and is clearly, obviously settling for him. Of course, only the FA himself can make that decision. Many decide it's not worth it. I can't blame them.

AloneOnTheStrange · 2016-06-21T03:59:55+00:00

Incels are incel because they are seriously behind the standard in most aspects of live. Usually it's some combination of being NEET, or working a job far below the norm for his age and potential, psychological issues, poor social skills, and poor social resume. Being of shape and poorly groomed doesn't help, but that's a minor issue because plenty of people like that get girlfriends.

So let's say this incel wakes up tomorrow and decides he's going to put in every ounce of effort he has to improving his situation. How long is it going to take before he's attractive?

Psychological issues can take years of therapy to fix. If you're NEET, or working a shitty job, you're looking at at least 3 years of college before you can land a high status job. That's assuming he doesn't want to do something like join the Army, or become a builder. He probably shouldn't, because those places will eat the incel alive. A social resume takes a while to build. How long is it going to take for the incel to get enough photos of him in social situations to have a half decent Facebook page, comparable to the guy who goes to a club or party every other week? That's assuming he's even able to in the first place. It's hard to be invited to trendy places if you're not friends with trendy people.

So one way or the other, the incel is looking at years of giving it 110% before he can attract a woman. During that time he remains and incel.

DietCokeImOnMyKnees · 2016-06-21T16:42:21+00:00

I'd say a lot of them are clinically depressed. The only incel guy I know is, to the point of being suicidal.

ozymandias271 · 2016-06-21T03:50:33+00:00

IME, it's a skills problem.

Some people are trying to walk to their living room by slamming their heads into the wall. (This isn't just an incel thing-- it's a really common pattern across a lot of dysfunctional behavior patterns.) This is not very effective and it hurts. If you tell them to try harder, they will probably just slam their heads into the wall more times and even harder and wind up with a concussion. They are well-justified in looking at you and being like "your advice is terrible!" because, like, it is.

The proper solution is to take them by the hand and show them where the door is-- that is, they learn the skills they don't have. This usually involves way less trying than the old bashing-your-head-into-the-wall trick, the same way that opening a door (even if it's a really tricky door that you have to put your back in) involves a lot less trying than attempting to break down a wall with your forehead. But since you're actually doing the right thing, it works much better.

DaphneDK · 2016-06-21T05:55:20+00:00

My last advice to an incel in one of the incel threads was to buy himself a mail order bride. But no, he didn't want to leave his country. If you can't be bothered to take off two weeks in Ukraine or the Phillipines or Cuba or wherever, then no you aren't trying hard enough.

Madness20 · 2016-06-21T11:07:40+00:00

Hmm, you talk as if "trying hard" gets you somewhere? I'm pretty sure many of them probably try too hard, and emit a vibe of neediness and desperation that women can see through and run away like a plague. I've been there, working hard on attractiveness, exercising like mad, but the lack of abundance mentality and neediness literally completelly set me back no matter how attractive i looked. It was when i stopped caring that i actually got some luck with women.

Other than that, even if we all were 10/10 men, there would still be incels. It's a matter of "economics", from the moment women are choosers, they choose a collection of them and the others tend to fall behind on the hierarchy and become increasingly unattractive out of the neediness for companionship and deception.

A lot of things about dating and attraction work like reverse psychology. The less you "care", the more confident and attractive you are psychologically. A balding fat and small dude with confidence and humor can get laid more often than a above average dude that is lacking such confidence.

Carkudo · 2016-06-21T08:59:17+00:00

Well, duh. I'm incel because I don't work hard enough.

Same reason I can't lift a truck - I just don't lift hard enough.

funchy · 2016-06-21T03:01:17+00:00

People who are self-identified incels or incels by the traditional definition just simply do not try hard enough to be happy.

Happiness and sex aren't interchangeable words. Are you bothered they're not getting laid or that they can't find happiness without sex?

They do not do anything to improve themselves, they usually say they do, but I have my doubts. Instead a lot of them go on forums and subreddits such as r/Trucels or r/Foreveralone.

You really don't know for sure what a person is doing, what they are or aren't trying, what is even possible for that individual to try. Therefore you cannot judge them.

RareBlur · 2016-06-21T04:54:39+00:00

If you already feel you are a lost cause how can you believe that doing anything will change that.

Asking for help is very hard when you've already given up.

DopeBergoglio · 2016-06-21T06:03:10+00:00

They are often confused by society mixed messages. They believe they try hard, and they actually do, but they don't do the right things. They try to "just be confident" and of course it doesn't work. Or they try to run a lot on the treadmill and doing 3X12 sets with weekly splits and they give up after some months of no improvement.

ppdthrowawai · 2016-06-21T01:25:20+00:00

Work smarter not harder. If they worked smarter they would see much more improvement. That is the important distinction. It is the same reason that many poor people remain poor. They simply don't have the mental tools to get out of their slump.

Dawk19 · 2016-06-21T06:16:02+00:00

Side question, when people say incel on this subreddit do they mean the broad literal definition or the interchangeable with foreveralone one?

Whisper · 2016-06-21T08:12:52+00:00

Enough for what?

RobotNormie · 2016-06-22T17:00:05+00:00

What's wrong with complaining exactly? Why should I improve any more. I'm ugly and pathetic around women. There's really no point, I'll probably end it soon anyway.

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tallwheel · 2016-06-21T07:25:56+00:00

This is over-generalizing IMO. Certainly, you are correct about some incels - probably even the majority of them, but I am certain there are also incels who are beyond help, regardless of how much effort they were to put in. "Try harder" may be good advice for the majority of incels, but it's probably cruel and insulting to those who it will not help. Unfortunately, on the Internet we'll never know which incels are which kind.

talcobh · 2016-06-22T05:39:46+00:00

I think you are partially right, there are definitely way better things to do than browse forums or even spending your spare time on the internet. I've been to some of those forums before and it just warps my mind even reading the comments, how some of these people can have such a messed up and inaccurate view of reality that just makes them feel even more hopeless and worse about themselves.

At the same time though, you have to understand how difficult it is for someone starting with no social connections, to even improve in the first place. An incel or forever alone is starting at a much lower point than most people, and change is incredibly scarier and more difficult compared to the average person. You know the saying "the rich get richer"? When it comes to social connections, its absolutely true. The more connections and friends you already have, the easier it is to get even more, and eventually you reach an age where most of your age peers have their own entrenched friend groups, long term relationships/spouses, and generally are much less open to forming new relationships with people. There is of course the standard advice of joining interest groups, but the prospect of going alone to these events with no guarantee of even meeting someone you get along with is definitely very intimidating. Most people don't even have the balls to go to social events alone, let alone someone who may not have set foot outside their own house in weeks. It is truly an uphill battle, and the longer you wait, the harder it becomes to move out of it. That said, it is never too late to try, but you'll have to put forth a Herculean effort that the average person will never have to go through.

Title	[CMV] Incels do not try hard enough.
Author	SipsSparklingWater
Upvotes	2
Comments	146
Date	June 21, 2016 1:03 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4p219f/cmv_incels_do_not_try_hard_enough/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-incels-do-not-try-hard-enough.274287 https://theredarchive.com/post/274287

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