Marrying Redpill Men | PurplePillDebate

Szymmy · 2018-11-17T12:45:24+00:00

I just came across thethe following post on /r/TheGirlSurvivalGuide...

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[–]legaladvicequest14 points15 points16 points 7 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

If you're married to a partner and that partner demands monogamy and then decides that his sex life isn't her problem... do you see the problem with that? In a way, it's like she cages him and then doesn't feed him. You're saying that in a fair world a man can be expected to accept functional celibacy because his lover decides that she doesn't want to be a lover, but still wants to stay married. I reject your idea of a fair world. Any man who thinks his healthy sex life is important should leave a woman to whom a healthy sex life is not important. There are too many fish in the sea to accept such critical incompatibility; leave her and date new people until you find someone that wants what you want. To most people, sex is key to bonding and feelings of closeness. You've got one life; don't waste it in an unfulfilling marriage.

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[–]Giraffeasauras0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

TRP is about being yourself, but striving to be the best version of yourself you can be. The advice is usually to lift (get physically fit and be mentally disciplined) and to focus on goals for self improvement instead of the end goal being to get sex or be in a relationship with a woman. By not making the woman your end goal, and being high value (read: confident, kind, ambitious, stable) enough to be able to get a date with a woman if you wanted to, by the time you are actually ready for a long-term relationship you are much more likely to make a stable and generally good partner because you aren't constantly panicking that this one woman is your only chance ever at happiness.

As a member of r/RPW who is marrying a man who generally follows TRP principles (from Tomassi, not from idiots on the interwebs...), I suggest you read "The Rational Male" on Kindle or in hard copy. It's a super interesting read. :)

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Uh...yeah, it is, in a manner of speaking.

Following the playbook will definitely have you change a significant number of your behaviors and outlooks on life. Some people will want to look at a system that makes you change who you were prior to encountering it as a negative.

But those outlooks were most likely pretty damaging anyway, if the person felt that they had to come to something like the Red Pill in order to try and improve themselves. But we seem to be living in a world where the masses believe that when a person says: "My life sucks, I'm miserable, and I want to change that," the general response is: "Oh, you're fine. Just keep doing what you're doing, and so what if you're miserable...you're fine just the way you are."

But at the same time, we always read about people that reinvent themselves and end up the better for it.

What perturbs me more than anything is that we have a male philosophy that says:

Fitness and health are paramount for your well-being and attractiveness.
You need to focus less on relationships and more on your own interests, which in turn will make you more attractive.
Don't put women on pedestals; put yourself on one instead (self-confidence).
By the way; here's a list of things that make men more attractive to women. If you're so inclined, you should consider adopting some or all of them, as you choose.

An entire movement urging guys to work hard to make themselves more attractive to women and we have people crowing that it's the worst thing ever, since Jonestown.

I have never been so glad to be beyond today's dating nonsense and old enough that if I suddenly became single, that I could ignore it with no problem.

[–][deleted]8 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It is not about "be the best version of yourself that you can be." It is about "be a man whom women find attractive, so you can get more sex."

If I created an alt and went to TRP and posted about how I had become the best version of myself, I am now the most highly-rated Overwatch player on my server and have the process of monetizing that shit well underway, so how come I still can't get laid? there would be a billion ECs bitch-slapping me and telling me that NONE of that shit is attractive to women, and I need to read the fucking sidebar, and then they would delete my OP and ban me.

By the way; here's a list of things that make men more attractive to women. If you're so inclined, you should consider adopting some or all of them, as you choose.

TRP in no way conveys this sentiment in these mealy-mouthed, equivocating terms. There is no "if you are so inclined." There is no "you could consider adopting these characteristics." No. They are very forceful (as indicated above) about the fact that TRP is about getting sex from women, and teaching men how to develop characteristics that will help them in that pursuit. If you're not there to do that, they ban you.

I have no idea how anybody can be so wrong about this.

[–]kragshot0 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]kragshot1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

First off, I never said that Rollo originated any of that stuff. However, he definitely codified it and made it a lot more palatable. I've read "The Rational Male," and I have seen the practicality of the stuff that he discusses. As I have written before, I learned a lot of the same stuff from a far less, woman-friendly source, as it were. But the core principles were essentially the same.

Second, and as I wrote in another post; you can't separate a desire to be more attractive to your preferred group of sexual partners from any discussion of overall male self-improvement. RP is one of the few male focused self-improvement ideologies out there that doesn't sugar-coat that. As I wrote in another post: "Improve yourself; the rest will come." Let's just put it out there; I am implying that the rest includes positive attention from the opposite sex.

When you get better about who you are and you become better at "that thing that you do," people will notice. When you become more internally confident about who you are and what you do, people will notice. When you become more physically fit and look better in regards to your grooming and hygiene, people will notice.

And those people will include women.

And incorporating all of these changes in yourself with a knowledge of certain behaviors that increase positive female attention...well, the result is rather self-evident.

To quote the late Richard Pryor:

"If bitches didn't dig that shit, then niggas wouldn't do it...."

[–]SkookumTree1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Physiologymatters2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]kragshot1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In a nutshell.

If you read Rollo's "Rational Male" stuff; it's almost Nietzschean in its essence. A lot of "will to power" and determinism in his essays. It's just male-focused.

Then you got the fitness/weightlifting guys like GLO. They are all about fitness, nutrition, and most importantly, discipline.

The only part that really pertains to the dating dynamic are the guys incorporating the PUA stuff which has been altered to focus more on confidence-building which helps change the guy from being a "doormat" into "being the guy kicking the door in."

You can sum up the RP as it was originally intended by the following:

"Improve yourself; the rest will come."

But the sub is no longer the place to start down that path and everyone here is mind-locked in seeing it as the example, when it is now the exception.

[–]Physiologymatters1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin4 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]kragshot1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There are definitely misogynistic areas within the manosphere; I'll own that shit...just as there are misandric areas within the femosphere. Don't get it twisted, boo...one trip to RadFemHub will kill that infant in its sleep.

But staying in the realm of the red pill; the sub-reddit in its current state and that cesspool RoK aside, there is not really anything being discussed there that is any different than the shit you see in female-focused discussions about men. Why are we acting as if women are any better or more noble than men in regards to the idea of manipulating the other sex for their benefit? The red pill just refuses to be nice about it.

But we live in a world where anything harsh or negative that is said about or to a woman is automatically equated to hatred of women; regardless of how true it might or might not be. And here's the sad part...with all of these "misogyny wolf-tickets" being given away, one day we're going to wake up and find out that when everyone is a misogynist...nobody will notice (or care about) the real-as fuck, "OG misogynists."

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[–]SkookumTreeRomantic relationships aren't necessary for happiness!0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]Director-D0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

If you do RP right, it won't matter because you will have become better overall; more confident and comfortable talking to people (women), in better condition, and looking better. You will have reinvented yourself so that is who you will be.

That is what RP claims people will be, but that rarely is ever the actual result.

There are a lot more horror stories of people tanking their relationships due to RP than RP men actually becoming self-actualizing. It isn’t due to them “not doing it right, but it is due to many issues with the core of RP. That is mostly due to the core tenants of TRP’s being based on crap “research” (if it can even be called that), glamorizing dark triad personality traits, a lack of taking responsibility in many important aspects, an emphasis on “keeping score” in relationships, and the rampant misogyny in the community.

There is a reason women tell other women to “run for the hills” when they hear or see a guy spewing RP garbage. It isn’t because it works.

And why do RP if you just want self improvement? There are a lot of healthier ways to improve one’s self that doesn’t have the bullshit and actually helps in forming healthy relationships.

[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I'm going to address all of your replies with one question...normally, this question is usually applied in the dismissive tone, but in this particular instance, it actually has a genuine foundation.

How do you know this to be actually true?

You have no real foundational evidence that dismisses any point that I have made.

Your "RP horror stories" claim actually supports my stance. These all come from men that are "failed RPs." I have openly claimed that RP is neither an easy or quick solution. So when you have a bunch of men rushing in looking for a "medicine show in a bottle solution" for their dating woes (which is what a lot of PUA and RP things have become as of late), they are going to end up at a loss. These failures are exactly what you all are seeing.

But the core principles work because they have been proven to work already. Who cares if you and those like you want to ignore or discredit the fieldwork and research. We're already living in a world where evidence is ignored in favor of feelings, so you're doing nothing wrong according to the current paradigm.

And again; you are only seeing the failures, while ignoring the guys out there that are actually doing the damn thing. For every guy out there "slaying pussy" as the term goes; there are two others just using what they learned just so they could go on normal dates unlike what they were doing before they adopted RP tactics because that is all that they wanted in the first place. These guys are going to look like every other "slightly-above-average attractive guy" that is slightly more successful in dating because, in the end, that is all that any average woman wants to see.

And why do RP if you just want self improvement? There are a lot of healthier ways to improve one’s self that doesn’t have the bullshit and actually helps in forming healthy relationships.

Okay...what are they? What other dating/relationship ideologies out there included confidence-building, fitness/nutrition/wellness, fashion/grooming/hygiene info, and a core psychology that for once, focuses on developing the male psyche for his own benefit, rather than the benefit of everyone else's?

But I'll answer your question..."...why do RP if you just want self improvement?"

Because it's a package that is actually tailored for men, for once. There are already a bunch of confidence-building strategies out there. Weightlifting-based fitness programs with nutritional tactics for gains is already a thing, as is focuses on male fashion, grooming, and hygiene. PUA has existed for decades and despite the countless attempts to discredit the core principles, it's still out there and it still works when done correctly. RP takes all of those things and puts them together in a cohesive format that doesn't pull men in several different directions while trying to achieve a singular goal.

The second reason guys flock to RP is that your so-called "healthier ways" included most of that hackneyed "be yourself" pablum that is always toted out and never works. The guys that take up the RP mantle have already tried "being themselves" and it has gotten them nowhere. Remember that famous saying that has often been misattributed to Einstein:

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

As for the final answer to your question...if there was something out there better than RP, then guys would be doing it already. The uncomfortable truth of this whole discussion is that you can't separate a desire to be more attractive to your preferred group of sexual partners from any discussion of overall male self-improvement. RP is one of the few out there that doesn't sugar-coat that. As I wrote in another post: "Improve yourself; the rest will come." Let's just put it out there; I am implying that the rest includes positive attention from the opposite sex. When you get better about who you are and you become better at "that thing that you do," people will notice. When you become more internally confident about who you are and what you do, people will notice. When you become more physically fit and look better in regards to your grooming and hygiene, people will notice.

And those people will include women.

And incorporating all of these changes in yourself with a knowledge of certain behaviors that increase female attention...well, the result is rather self-evident.

That is why people do RP...you ain't got to like it. There's people that refuse to fly in airplanes too....

[–]Director-D0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You have no real foundational evidence that dismisses any point that I have made.

To be fair, most RP methods don’t have foundational evidence that they do work. I think you have a lot more to prove than I do, but I will answer your questions anyways.

Your "RP horror stories" claim actually supports my stance. These all come from men that are "failed RPs."

I mean this sounds like the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. Where every bad thing that RP has been known to do is brushed off as “they aren’t true RP’ers”.

So when you have a bunch of men rushing in looking for a "medicine show in a bottle solution" for their dating woes (which is what a lot of PUA and RP things have become as of late), they are going to end up at a loss. These failures are exactly what you all are seeing.

Well RP is based on the old PUA crap which was the dating equivalent of “get rich quick” schemes. They use basically all of the same research and core ideas based on crap EP research. So it isn’t like they are completely separate things no matter how like to try to state that RP is beyond that. They use the same bad research and have the same core ideas.

But the core principles work because they have been proven to work already.

Except this isn’t true. Most MFT psychological research goes against RP ideas. I guess you can say certain things kind of work, but at the same time they enforce and encourage really bad traits that are negative traits for dating and healthy relationships. I will explain further.

One example is dominance in RP. Dominance is one aspect that is pushed in a lot in red pill advise columns and forums. It seems to work for members because most people that join RP tend to not be assertive at all. So while becoming more dominant, new RP members tend to increase their assertive actions also. Assertiveness in an attractive trait to women and lack of assertiveness in unattractive. So technically it helps them a bit, but unfortunately there is a difference between assertive and dominant actions.

Even though a timid person might do better with this advise than he did before, it still doesn’t mean it is good advise. Dominance is actually shown to be a negative trait when it comes to attraction. Dominant personality traits also tend to correlate with abusive actions in relationships as well as many other social issues. While the person might be more attractive than he was before because he now shows some assertive qualities, now the person has new negative traits of dominance. If that same person used good advise that just worked on increasing assertiveness instead of dominance (which most other good dating advise does), he would have been much better off.

There are a lot more examples I can talk about also where similar things happen. RP likes to promote dark triad personality traits, which overall effect a person negatively. It only seems to work since it sometimes brushes up against other advise that happens to work.

We're already living in a world where evidence is ignored in favor of feelings, so you're doing nothing wrong according to the current paradigm.

What? This isn’t true in the scientific community. I know. I had to publish research. It was a long process. Many of my colleagues were doing research on somewhat provocative work also. The university boards didn’t care if the work was provocative, but only cared if the research had good methodology and showed accurate results. The reason why EP research (the research that RP is based on) is not accepted by most aspects of the scientific community is not because it is controversial or politically incorrect. It isn’t accepted because it has garbage methodology and mostly is proven to be wrong.

For every guy out there "slaying pussy" as the term goes;there are two others just using what they learned just so they could go on normal dates unlike what they were doing before they adopted RP tactics because that is all that they wanted in the first place.

Do you have any evidence that there are people like this out there? I am not talking scientific evidence, but even some RP celebs would work. Anything.

I take that claim with a grain of salt. Firstly because this statement has no actual backing, and also because this is the same thing most scam groups claim when people notice their advise doesn’t actually work. Most “self-help” scam groups always claim the exact same things you are claiming. When people from every “get rich quick” scheme are asked questions about why most everyone that reads their book isn’t rich, they normally have a similar response. “The people who aren’t getting rich aren’t doing it right and there are two people for every one that fails”. But this a non-testable hypothesis and most people tend be failing. They just state that because the other person technically can’t prove them wrong but at the same time they have no evidence to prove it right. Why aren’t there more success stories? Why are success stories so few and far between if they really exist in big numbers at all?

Okay...what are they? What other dating/relationship ideologies out there included confidence-building, fitness/nutrition/wellness, fashion/grooming/hygiene info, and a core psychology that for once, focuses on developing the male psyche for his own benefit, rather than the benefit of everyone else's?

I mean, most all dating advise includes confidence-building, fitness/nutrition/wellness, fashion/grooming/hygiene info, and a core psychology that focuses on developing the male psyche for his own benefit. But I am guessing you want more specific examples.

I mean, if you want the best stuff there is a whole field of psychology that studies this in MFT psychology. It is an entire field of psychology dedicated to studying relationships and doing counseling and therapy for people who struggle with finding and maintaining healthy relationships. Their advise isn’t just coming out of their ass but also is backed by really quality research. They also know a lot about self-improvement since they normally have classes in understanding healthy human development.

But if you want more informal advise that is still good, I would suggest to you to follow the dating advise from “art of manliness”. That is a great website and group with really good moderation that has good articles on embracing your masculinity. They publish great articles with really solid advise that works specifically on male centered self-improvement. They also have dating columns with great information on how to be more successful in dating in a masculine manner that is healthy. I would check that out.

Honestly EHarmony or zoosk advise is better than RP also. They also enforce having good hygiene, dressing well, having hobbies, but they also enforce and try to encourage good communicative skills which RP tends to not do. Though I know most RP would hate those sites. I know that RP would hate those sites since those sites actually care about the ideas and opinions of women and don’t treat women as less than human like most RP advise does. But it is important to look to the benefit of both men and women in dating and RP completely lacks this. Good relationships form out of mutual respect and care for each other. If you don’t look at the other side of the picture when dating, you are missing a lot.

There are already a bunch of confidence-building strategies out there. Weightlifting-based fitness programs with nutritional tactics for gains is already a thing, as is focuses on male fashion, grooming, and hygiene.

You aren’t convincing me of why you chose RP if even you agree that these strategies are found elsewhere (and normally are better elsewhere).

PUA has existed for decades and despite the countless attempts to discredit the core principles, it's still out there and it still works when done correctly.

Not a great argument. Groups like Flat Earth theorists, anti-vaxxers, moon landing conspiracy groups, and anti-climate change groups have also been discredited but still have people flocking to them. Just because it has been discredited doesn’t mean people won’t be ignorant enough to believe them. There is also a reason why PUA, RP, and the “research” they claim is true is not accepted in the scientific community.

Also again, while you Think it works, it only does so because it sometimes brushes up against things that might help someone who is completely incompetent. And again it also also enforces and teaches a lot of traits that negatively affect attractiveness and relationships.

RP takes all of those things and puts them together in a cohesive format

It also has little and poor moderation unlike other places that also compile this advise which causes a lot of misinformation and garbage. Still not a good reason to also deal with the rampant misogyny and poor research. It also takes advise from all around and misuses and skews it to fit their ideologies.

[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Alright...let's rumble. I've had a shit day but you deserve the best that I've got to give in the debate arena.

But before I begin, I feel that I need to elaborate that I am not defending the TRP sub here on Reddit. I am talking about the collective concept that has been labeled the "red pill" in regards to an ideology about male self-improvement which includes increasing dating advice geared toward men dating women.

To be fair, most RP methods don’t have foundational evidence that they do work.

We are discussing a rather unique ideology; one where the group that is the primary focus of half of it's goal has a vested interest in denying that it actually works. You can't really go out and survey groups of women about being successfully picked up by a guy using techniques to woo them. The biggest, yet most uncomfortable issue lying with all things related to PUA is that if any woman admits that it works, then they also feel that they are admitting to not being in control of their own agency in regards to their sexual attraction to men.

And that is the funniest and most ironic thing in the world because men have openly admitted that this is true in regards to their sexual attraction to women for almost forever.

But with that being said, there are countless articles on the principles and science behind attraction ranging from basic behavioral tips to NLP and beyond. A huge number of them are basically parroting the stuff that the RP pages/blogs are already discussing. The difference with them though is that they tend to lean more toward PC language and catering more to female sensibilities.

I mean this sounds like the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. Where every bad thing that RP has been known to do is brushed off as “they aren’t true RP’ers”.

And I can turn that around by saying that "every bad thing that White people do is par for the course of the behavior of all White people;" and we know how untrue that is.

I have said before that if a male uses red pill ideology correctly then you aren't going to be able to tell them from any other male that is attractive and does well with women, because that is its entire point. Furthermore, no male that has done so is not going to risk everything that he has gained by openly admitting it and putting his name to it. So, it stands to reason that the ones that you can actually pick out as being red pill converts are doing it wrong because doing it right means that nobody can tell that you are doing it at all.

If a guy is not fat and sloppy/skinny and spindly but is instead ripped/swole, dresses/smells good, has confidence in his demeanor, and can easily talk to women; is it something that he was "born to" or is it "acquired behavior?" How can you really tell, if he does/says nothing that gives it away? Answer that question and you will have toppled my defense of the thing.

Most MFT psychological research goes against RP ideas.

And it would. A lot of the concepts of RP do not conform to the common ideology that supports our society. Male determinism when unchecked is not a popular or viable thing in our current system. The current ideas surrounding family and marriage tend to be far less accommodating towards the needs of men as opposed to women and children. Furthermore, if too many men "go off of the reservation," then it causes problems for society. Things as they are work best if men work hard, get married, and then work even harder to support their familes. If men stop giving a fuck about getting married, then it causes problems. While not all RP groups are anti-marriage, enough of them are so that it's problematic.

In addition, all RP variants promote men gaining enough self-confidence and the wherewithal to be able to walk away from a bad relationship rather than staying to make it work. Women are already responsible for initiating 70%+ of divorces...if you have men motivated to start walking away as well, then where will that leave the American community?

So, yeah...I'm not going to disagree with that statement. But as the saying goes; "the devil is in the details."

I've got more but Reddit has a word limit...stand by for part 2:

[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

(to continue from above)

Dominance is one aspect that is pushed in a lot in red pill advise columns and forums....

You did most of the work for me on that one.

If a guy is being overly dominant in a relationship to where it is a problem with his female partner, then he's doing it wrong. Like anything; you have to know where your limits lie. If you are dating a woman that prefers her man being "The Boss ^TM," then if you are not, then she's more than likely to walk all over you. On the other hand, if a guy is trying to boss around a woman despite the fact that she is very openly resistant to such behavior, then they are going to have problems. Most of the sites out there tell you that you have to pay attention, judge accordingly, and adjust as needed.

But, yes there are some extreme sources out there that get more than a bit out of control. One source that I often cite in regards to "wrong-minded male dating advice" is Shahrazad Ali's infamous book "The Black Man's Guide to Understanding the Black Woman." The height of the book's controversy is this particular passage from Ms. Ali (just to be clear; yes, this book was written by a woman):

Her unbridled tongue is the main reason she cannot get along with the Blackman...if she ignores the authority and superiority of the Blackman, there is a penalty. When she crosses this line and becomes viciously insulting it is time for the Blackman to soundly slap her in the mouth.

And you mention the entire "dark triad" thing...nearly all RP experts will tell you that it is for all practical purposes a "nuclear option," and in nearly all cases that you're better off just "nexting her" and moving on than employing it.

"We're already living in a world where evidence is ignored in favor of feelings, so you're doing nothing wrong according to the current paradigm." (from me)

What? This isn’t true in the scientific community. I know. (yours)

I'm just going to drop this article right here and let you suss the rest out yourself....

Why aren’t there more success stories? Why are success stories so few and far between if they really exist in big numbers at all?

As I said above; the few men that admit that it does work with their own names are not trusted as to be telling the truth and most women in general cannot admit that it does work because if any woman admits that it works, then they also feel that they are admitting to not being in control of their own agency in regards to their sexual attraction to men. And unlike pure PUA, the overall goal of RP is to not look like you had to learn anything to get where you are now. There will be of course, things that you can't hide about your transformation (i.e. fitness and grooming) but the other things like the increase in self-confidence are supposed to be more subtle in nature (i.e. the frog in boiling water analogy).

And again; you are not supposed to tell people about it with your own face and voice...especially other women. If they figure out that you are a "manufactured alpha," then it was all for nothing. Again, plenty of women in this sub alone, have supported that fact.

You bring up some examples of "better dating advice" sources. Well, first off, "Art of Manliness" is pretty much "red pill-lite" with more PC language thrown in to cater more to the women that come in and look around than to the men that are actually reading it. In fact, most of your dating sources are not really focused on male needs at all. They claim to be but at the same time, refuse to speak frankly about male problems with dating in particular and male self-confidence in general because they also have to cater to the sensibilities of the women that browse their information.

You claim that RP doesn't teach you how to talk to women...but that statement pretty much denies one of the things that it does. However, one of the things that makes RP unpopular with women in general is that it also encourages men not to put women on pedestals and go into an encounter with an emotionally-detatched attitude. It also is designed to diffuse the entire "women are wonderful" effect from the dating dynamic.

Case in point; "shit tests" and how to avoid or game them. EHarmony or Zoosk doesn't talk about dealing with those and they couldn't because if they did, it would offend the women that frequent their sites.

You aren’t convincing me of why you chose RP if even you agree that these strategies are found elsewhere (and normally are better elsewhere).

You have to remember...I didn't choose "RP" as it is called today, and I have said as much. Most of the principles that are called "red pill" today, I learned at the feet of a retired pimp back in the 70s. This old cat overheard a bunch of us guys complaining about having trouble with getting dates and took it upon himself to "lay the heavy shit down for us young cats so we didn't have to be stuck being squares."

What I have said is that a lot of what he taught me back then corresponds to what is being promoted as "red pill" ideology today. So...in regards to "better sources," if it wasn't for who I was as a person, the things I learned and the source from which I learned them could have turned me into all kinds of wrong in regards to dating. Again..."toolboxes;" with one you can either be a carpenter or a serial killer...it depends upon who is holding it; either Mike Holmes or Dennis Rader (the BTK killer).

As for "elsewhere;" the PUA community is all but dead now due to the complaints of women and the efforts of genuinely misogynistic idiots like Roosh V pissing in the proverbial well. Calling yourself a PUA now will all but guarantee that you're going to get a #metoo accusation pinned on you like a yellow star back in 1938 Germany. Weightlifting; you have an entire movement of women that are all but fraudulently claiming that they don't like muscular men (all while creaming in their panties at the thought of Chris Hemsworth). You don't have to look any further than this very discussion in regards to more male-centric sources of male-focused self-confidence training.

And the remainder of your post is you once again, conflating the "TRP" sub-reddit with the entire "red pill" ideology.

But when it all comes to fruition there is one point that keeps being disregarded in most discussions about red pill ideology:

Red pill ideology is not and never was meant to be for female consumption. The red pill is not about "making life better for women." The goal of the red pill is very much a counter-culture movement meant to hack the entire male perspective on life. One of those things that it breaks is how men are controlled by the "women are wonderful" effect. It ain't nice; nor is it pretty. The red pill is a results-driven ideology. The goals are neither ethereal or nebulous; you know exactly what you will get out of it. To paraphrase the title of a well-known video about communicating/interacting with people (though it's framed to be about women):

"It is exactly about the motherfucking nail!"

But apparently, it isn't for you...I'm okay with letting people enjoy things (or not). There are enough guys in here that can attest to what I have written and possibly even expand upon it. All that I have done is report on my experience with it; both lived and observed.

You go and be good to yourself and your people, okay? I'll do the same.

[–]Director-D1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But before I begin, I feel that I need to elaborate that I am not defending the TRP sub here on Reddit.

Well good because am not attacking the sub as much as I am the core ideology.

Your comment is long, but I will split up your comment into appropriate sections and comment on them since there is some information you repeat and some arguments you have that all have the same issues that I will address.

Firstly, let’s talk about research. I’m pretty sure you haven’t done done research or studied it in the past since multiple times in this article you seem to misunderstand research, talk about a lot of pseudoscience to prove your points, or tend to not understand why researchers don’t accept certain research.

You can't really go out and survey groups of women about being successfully picked up by a guy using techniques to woo them.

This is not the only way to study attraction. There are many ways to study attraction. I know what you are trying to say here. You are saying RP has no good research because it is impossible to study RP techniques accurately. This seems like a bad attempt to excuse the fact that RP doesn’t have research. I am guessing you didn’t read the articles I cited. Many of those articles have great methodology for being able to study what women find attractive without surveying them. There are ways to study attractiveness and what women want in men. I would read up on actual published articles on attraction.

there are countless articles on the principles and science behind attraction ranging from basic behavioral tips to NLP and beyond.

Found the second big issue on your “research”. You seem to only research within the echo chamber of RP. How do I know this? Because you are acting as if NLP is actually science. NLP is pseudoscience at best. NLP is based on guesses that are is not informed by scientific understanding of neuroscience and linguistics. It has been a debunked area of thought since the 80’s. To catch you up on research from the last 30 years, most of the other RP stuff is based on EP which has a similar problem. EP research are basically all guesses that are not informed by current scientific understanding of psychology and evolution. This is the core of RP ideas unfortunately, which is why researchers don’t take them seriously.

This is the misinformation I was talking about. RP relies heavily on crap research that has terrible methodology and many things that have pretty much been debunked since the 80s and 90s.

I'm just going to drop this article right here and let you suss the rest out yourself....

I have a bit to say about this.

I am guessing the reason you don’t trust published research is due to horror stories like this... it sounds like you think women and liberals are censoring articles that hurt their feelings and killing science in the process. If I didn’t know about research or this guy and just read this guy’s article, I would also believe you. But I do know research.

Did you actually read the article he was trying to get published? Firstly the dude isn’t just an “innocent person trying to get science out to the world”.

Firstly The author wrote a bad paper, and I will talk about that later. Also he claims to be innocent and obviously seems appalled and surprised by this activism. Judging from his history though, he definitely isn’t innocent from activism himself which makes me doubt his motivations. Here is one of his websites http://www.motherfunctor.org/CompleteHistory2013.php

The author tries to portray himself as “I am silenced because my ideas are too controversial!" instead of what really happened which was "I am not taken seriously cause my methods are bullshit!"... Have you read the original paper? It is hard to see how it got past peer review, with such low quality and all the assumptions made. Maybe it got past peer review because his math was good? But even then most math researchers are pretty critical on the conclusions he comes up from that.

I can tell you why that article didn’t get published though and it wasn’t just because of “meh feelings”. My university wouldn’t have taken that research for a variety of reasons:

there are some serious flaws (like really bad flaws) with the model proposed in the paper. The paper isn’t about just a theory, but is about a mathematical model the author created with no biological or psychological backing about a purely biological and psychological issue. His assumptions also conflict with the analysis he provides.... making it more confusing.
Guy has no expertise in psychology or evolutionary biology, but decides to publish an article on it as if he were an authority. There's no mention of collaboration with psychologists or biologists as co-authors.
The author didn’t consider any alternative explanations in his paper. Even if we pretend that the model was accurate for the sake of argument, there are so many better explanations for why his theory could have happened. It is ridiculous that he didn’t mention a single other explanation.
the paper is full of “just so storytelling” (an issue you also find with most EP articles) since most of the things he claims might be true are untestable.
A poorly done lit review and stretched conclusions that rely on a lot of ridiculous assumptions (like really ridiculous assumptions).

I mean most any researcher can tell it is just a poorly written article. The author here is just writing this story on a very right wing site to get pity. The article completely skips over the fact that his research was not rejected due to political incorrectness so much as it was due to the content being sub-par for any research journal. A more likely explanation for his article being pulled was due to quality control, and the article being pulled is more likely based on psychological or evolutionary biology experts telling them to take a second look before they post it due to issues with the article.

This post just looks like a post made to rile up right wingers. Which coincidently, the author is known to do.

It seems like you don’t know much about research with the articles you posted and don’t believe it because you listen to extremely biased right wing news about research. I’m not trying to criticize conservatives (because I am one myself), but I am criticizing this guy because he is trying to play the oppression olympics.

I will have a part 2, but it will be pretty short.

[–]Director-D1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Part 2 and the end.

Most of the other stuff you state is pretty much anecdotal or are excuses for why RP doesn’t have research (RP try to be secret, can’t test things, or other excuses). I would cite and post more articles, but it seems you have a limited grasp of research since you believe that quillette articles and NLP are accurate sources of information, and you believe that people hate RP because of PC stuff rather than the fact that it produces bad research... also you obviously didn’t read and ignored my research the last time I went through the trouble of citing research for you...

I will address some of the other small comments though.

And I can turn that around by saying that "every bad thing that White people do is par for the course of the behavior of all White people;" and we know how untrue that is.

Not a good comparison. White people aren’t an ideology like RP is.

Saying white people all have similar thoughts is dumb because there are many types of white people with their own individualities, ideologies, countries, and various other aspects. Not all whites people have the same ideologies or views on human nature or life.

RP is an ideology so all members have a similar goal and ideology within that group so it is much easier to generalize with that population. So a better comparison would be another group that shares a goal and ideology. Here is a better comparison statement:

“there are a lot of bad actions that come from The ideology of the KKK, and those actions are par for the course for most KKK members.” That actually is a fair assumption to make since all members share a core ideology and act according to that ideology.

That is a more accurate comparison since both are groups of people that shape their lives and perform actions under a shared ideology (funny enough, they both also use similar research since both ideologies rely on crap EP research). It is easier to generalize these groups’ actions since those groups base their actions around core beliefs. Not saying RP are the KKK, but that is a better comparison than comparing RP to the extremely broad category of “white people”.

Maybe KKK was too rough a comparison though but couldn’t think of another cult group at the moment that based life decisions on an core ideology of human nature other than Neo-nazis.

(Responding to me talking about MFT research not agreeing with RP) And it would. A lot of the concepts of RP do not conform to the common ideology that supports our society.

You use this argument a lot. The idea that researchers don’t “get RP” because it is so “different”.... You know this is the same argument flat earthers’ make? The same argument that anti-vaxxers make? Similarly they say things like “you don’t listen or agree with us because you are mind controlled by the system/stuck on the reservation/stuck in society and can’t think outside the box”....

This is a conspiracy theory level argument that makes researchers out to be dumbasses that just can’t “understand” you... not even an argument worth having.

Well, first off, "Art of Manliness" is pretty much "red pill-lite"

No it isn’t. Why is it “red-pill light”? Just because they like masculinity and tell people to clean up? That doesn’t make it red pill? It doesn’t share a single core tenant of red pill and most of their advise is backed by great clinical psychologists like Shawn Smith who shows up on their podcast and writes a lot of their relationship articles. Definitely not an advocate for RP.

with more PC language thrown in to cater more to the women that come in and look around than to the men that are actually reading it.

Oh god... is this what you think of any advise that happens to have a positive view of women?

They claim to be but at the same time, refuse to speak frankly about male problems with dating in particular and male self-confidence in general because they also have to cater to the sensibilities of the women that browse their information.

This is conspiracy level garbage. Really? Art of manliness completely caters to men. They literally have a full podcast and articles about “how to spot red flags in women”, “how to have a healthy sex life”, “how to forge confidence”. Did you even look at the articles? All of it is literally advise by men, made for men. Apparently you just get worried and paranoid every time an article about dating treats a woman as actual human beings...

Well that is enough... most of the other stuff is pretty redundant... All of your points are fallacies (no Scotsman fallacy is strong here), claims without any research to back it, poor excuses for why you can’t ever get research about any claim you make, and conspiracy level arguments about women apparently corrupting and taking over every dating advise group other than RP because they talk about women as humans...

About your woman in relationship advise argument. relationships are a two way street where both men and women have to work together to forge a relationship. Women’s opinions and ideas should be taken into consideration. Relationships are about a connection between two people. But apparently all of that is just PC garbage...

You go and be good to yourself and your people, okay? I'll do the same.

The issue people have with RP though is that you guys affect other people... there are horrible views within the community and RP spawned crap like black pill, the rest of the pill community, and manosphere ideas. They also promote sexist and crap research... that is why people don’t want to leave RP alone. Similar to why people don’t want to leave anti-Vaxxers alone. Anti-vaxxers end up causing harm to themselves and those around them and spread crap research that infects others. RP is kind of similar, except it just spreads more misogyny instead of disease.

When you said you were getting ready for a real debate I was expecting an actual debate with good research, articles proving your points, and points that weren’t just poorly thought out fallacies. I would get out of the RP bubble and look at some research outside of that community.

[–]kragshot1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Director-D1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Director-D0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Part 2 of my reply since it didn’t all fit:

As for the final answer to your question...if there was something out there better than RP, then guys would be doing it already.

Well most people do take other advise. And it works. So guys are already doing the other stuff. RP is a very small cultish community also. So people aren’t flocking to RP like you think. Most people end up finding relationship and doing fine with other research. You are acting like RP is the only advise that is out there and the only one that works.

Overall most of your argument is “RP works because I said so and it is good because it compiles information”. Both aren’t very compelling arguments since RP has not been proven to be good by any scientific community (or even by the non-scientific with all the horror stories out there) and many other groups compile the same or better information without the bullshit.

You asked me for examples and explanations for everything but your entire comment showed no actual proof that RP really works. Also judging by your generalizations of everything not RP (saying it is just advising to “be yourself”), I can only assume that you didn’t look to any other dating advise at all.

You also failed to address the rampant misogyny, misinformation, and lack of moderation in the community. How can you even trust anything in RP with those glaring issues?

[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You also failed to address the rampant misogyny, misinformation, and lack of moderation in the community. How can you even trust anything in RP with those glaring issues?

If you are talking about the TRP sub, then I have pretty much admitted owned up that it's not what it used to be. They, themselves are openly complaining about the issues with the influx of incel posters diluting any real discussion.

As for the rest...you're the one trying to prove a negative. I obviously can't produce any real evidence of it working simply because of the very nature of the red pill ideology. Any evidence produced in this sub would be purely anecdotal because nobody here is going to give out their real name/identity. I could tell you how it worked for me and there are several other guys in here that could do the same, but you could just as easily claim that we are all lying and living in our parent's basements.

If you have to tell somebody in real life that you underwent a transformation in order to change yourself from "a loser that couldn't attract a girlfriend" to "a guy that women dig being with," then that defeats the entire purpose of the transformation...because as we have already seen in this sub; women don't want guys that "learned how to be attractive;" they just want "guys that get it naturally."

The logical extrapolations that I have presented hold water, especially when leveled against several tests (Occam's Razor among others) but if you are invested in not acknowledging the veracity of a thing, then it doesn't matter, does it?

[–]Director-D0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

If you are talking about the TRP sub, then I have pretty much admitted owned up that it's not what it used to be. They, themselves are openly complaining about the issues with the influx of incel posters diluting any real discussion.

I’m not just talking about the influx of incels. I am talking about many of the core ideas of RP that have been there since the PUA days. Ideas like AWALT, women’s nature being illoyal, illogical, manipulative, immature, and basically being adult children but somehow still master manipulators of a af/bb strategy. It is ridiculous. That isn’t something that just came up recently. Those are core ideas of why RP does what it does. None of those ideas are founded on actual good research, it is ridiculously misogynistic, and most all of it is just straight up wrong.

you're the one trying to prove a negative. I obviously can't produce any real evidence of it working simply because of the very nature of the red pill ideology. Any evidence produced in this sub would be purely anecdotal because nobody here is going to give out their real name/identity.

Firstly, why can’t you produce real evidence for RP advise working? There is lots of research on dominance and other RP ideas in dating (they actually prove RP ideas wrong though which is why I am guessing you are avoiding it). You should be trying to produce evidence that RP methods works. I don’t think you have done your research though since you don’t seem to know what other groups are even saying about dating (thinking they only say “be yourself”).

And No, you are the one who needs to prove that it works first. You still have the burden of proof. You can’t just make claims like “for every one failed RP man there are two successful ones” without proof of that. If someone told me “try this medicine, it will fix all your issues”, I would ask, well what does the research say about that medicine? It isn’t my duty to prove the medicine doesn’t work. It is his duty to prove it does work.

You are trying to shift the burden of proof to me when most of RP has not provided any proof for their claims.

Another example: It is like if I challenged a fraud psychic saying that he did not actually have magical powers that allow him to communicate with the dead, but then his rebuttal is that He doesn’t need to provide proof for his communication with the dead but instead I need to prove that he can’t communicate with the dead...... that is ridiculous and isn’t how research or arguments work.

Claims need to be proven. Most other groups that give advise have MFT research or other solid research backing up their claims showing that they work.

because as we have already seen in this sub; women don't want guys that "learned how to be attractive;" they just want "guys that get it naturally."

Is there actually any legitimate proof to this statement or is this another unfounded RP claim? You sure have a lot of claims, but no proof of anything you are saying.

The logical extrapolations that I have presented hold water, especially when leveled against several tests (Occam's Razor among others).

Occam’s razor is not proof, nor is it a test, nor is it science. That is just the idea that the simplest explanation is the correct one, and that statement isn’t true for many situations about human interaction since there are so many complex moving parts that make up human thought and action.

I’ll show you how to provide evidence/proof though. You first need to show research or anything backing your claims.

For example. I claimed that dominance is actually a negative trait when it comes to attractiveness and dominance is also correlated with more abuse, violence, and poor relationships. Here are some articles that back up my claim. I will cite them in APA format. I would check out those journals and articles at your local college library. If you are a college student, you might be able to get them from another schools library if you ask about them or they might be found in your schools research database. Otherwise I would check your local library to see if they have those journals these articles are a part of. They are all great psychological research journals.

Bernard, J., Bernard, S., & Bernard, M. (1985). Courtship Violence and Sex-Typing. Family Relations, 34(4), 573-576.
Burger, J. & Cosby, M. (1999). Do women prefer dominant men? The case of the missing control condition. Journal of Research in Personality 33 (3), 358-368.
Jensen-Campbell, L., Graziano, W., & West, S. (1995). Dominance, prosocial orientation, and female preferences: Do nice guys really finish last? Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 68 (3), 427.

See? I actually had a reason for making that claim. I wasn’t just pulling a claim out of my butt with no backing.

So far you haven’t shown that RP methods are the best in any way. You are just using the “no Scotsman fallacy” to try and dismiss most of RP that prove my point further and are trying to claim that RP is the best method for dating while not having anything to back that up.

[–]meomeowmeoww 1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]gasparddelanuit17 points18 points19 points 7 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

Swallowing the RP, whether that means being a TRPer, RPW, MGTOW, MRA, PUA or none of these, essentially just means that you believe there are profound biological differences between the genders; that, generally speaking, there is a male nature and female nature that are distinct. It does not describe how you respond to this information. You could be a faithful married RPer or a single RPer who spins plates. There is not one prescribed mode of behaviour. The RP is simply about uncovering the underlying dynamics between the genders. It's up to the individual how they decide to use that information. Some individuals may use it exploitatively, whereas others may simply use it to improve their lives.

What compels men to become RPed is the discovery that it more closely reflects the world they see and experience around them than the BP narrative they have been sold throughout their lives. It is the antidote to the cognitive dissonance they have been experiencing all this time, but did not know how to resolve. It helps them recognize that they have been living a lie and a more impoverished existence than what life could offer them or what they want. It is an endorsement of their uncertain suspicion that there is better in life than having to live according to the expressed wishes of women and gynocentricism.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

This is all fine, but does not address the central point of the OP, which is about a woman's experience when her husband discovers RP. The terps and merps here universally hamster that it is a good thing for a woman when her husband goes RP, and that any woman would rather be married to a RP man than to a beta schlub, but this is their interpretation of her experience.

Are all of them wrong? Probably not. Are all of them right? Definitely not.

Generally, most women's preferences would proceed in this order (list is not inclusive):

A natural high beta
A guy who has discovered TRP and turned himself into a facsimile of a high beta well before she ever met him, so that to her, there is no difference between him and a natural high beta
A guy who discovers RP several years into the marriage and pulls the rug out from under her

Women value authenticity in this realm far more highly than men do. It makes sense; childbearing is a HUGE investment of time and energy and physical resources for women, so they want to know exactly what they are getting into, and exactly what kind of man whose children they're carrying. This always seems difficult for men to understand, because most men don't care whether their wife actually is a sex-crazed nympho or just pretends to be a sex-crazed nympho, but most women would rather get pregnant by a guy that they know is a mid-range beta than by a guy who pretends to be an alpha.

So yes, it is deeply disconcerting for the vast majority of women when their husband discovers RP and starts doing about-faces. It is disconcerting in a way that men don't seem to understand. As far as the practice of TRP/MRP goes, that's fine. It doesn't matter if they understand. But in debating the theory, as we do here at PPD, the lack of understanding is fair game for discussion.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]gasparddelanuit-1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This is all fine, but does not address the central point of the OP, which is about a woman's experience when her husband discovers RP..... But in debating the theory, as we do here at PPD, the lack of understanding is fair game for discussion.

My reply does address the central point of the OP. She wanted to know why a man turns red and what it is like being married to a man who was blue and then turns red. I explained why men become red and that there is not a universal response when this happens. For the married man or man in a LTR, they may become assholes, as in the example she gave, they may become more attractive to their partners, they may require more from the relationship or they may leave. As I said, it comes down to what the individual chooses to do with this information. There are no prescriptions.

Also, I never said anything about a lack of understanding not being fair game for discussion. I think I actually helped the OP understand the RP and men's mind-set better.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]gasparddelanuit0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

whatthe its like marrying a man and then him becoming redpilled afterwards, any thought? 
Literally the first discussion point in the OP.

Yes, and like I said, there is not one effect of or response to the RP. It could go in the woman's favour or it could go against her, depending on how the man reacts to swallowing the RP. Essentially it comes down to how anyone might react to having more knowledge, money or power. All of these things can be used for good or evil.

[–]maplehobo-1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Generally, most women's preferences would proceed in this order (list is not inclusive):

A natural high beta

A guy who has discovered TRP and turned himself into a facsimile of a high beta well before she ever met him, so that to her, there is no difference between him and a natural high beta

A guy who discovers RP several years into the marriage and pulls the rug out from under her

Wrong. All women preference would be an alpha who is also a beta. That would mean a high value man who is also comitted to one and only one woman. As you can see this is a paradox, a walking contradiction, and cannot happen, so they have to compromise. Some women go for the beta, others try to chase alpha. You are assuming that most women want the beta. We can't never know because an alpha will hardly commit. But if he did, wouldn't women still prefer him?.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Actual alphas - not TRP STEMlord stoic faux alphas or frat boy Chad faux alphas - are out there, and they do commit to women, but only a very few women are interested in actual alphas for relationships. The vast majority of women want high betas: good-looking men who exhibit enough alpha characteristics to maintain attraction while also providing a good amount of beta comfort.

This is not controversial. "Beta" doesn't mean "weak and spineless and unattractive." And "alpha" doesn't mean "universally attractive and appealing."

Edit:

That would mean a high value man who is also comitted to one and only one woman. As you can see this is a paradox, a walking contradiction, and cannot happen,

What are you talking about? High value men commit to one and only one woman all the time. You are describing a high beta, an alpha bucks.

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[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

there are profound biological differences between the genders; that, generally speaking, there is a male nature and female nature that are distinct.

See, that would be a pretty big problem with me. First of all, virtually no RPer actually comes to their worldview with objective and observations. Usually it seems to be more about anger and dehumanizing/vilifying women then any persuit of truth. Secondly, and more importantly, I want my SO to judge my nature based on my actions, but his idea if women nature in general. In some ways I follow the RP idea of female nature, and in other ways I don't. Why try to use your uses if a generic woman to figure out me? Use your knowledge of me to figure out me. An insistence otherwise it's only going to spell disaster. Such as me yelling "English mother fucker, do you speak it?!" When he gets me expensive jewelry after I tell him I don't like it.

[–]gasparddelanuit0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

there are profound biological differences between the genders; that, generally speaking, there is a male nature and female nature that are distinct. 
See, that would be a pretty big problem with me. First of all, virtually no RPer actually comes to their worldview with objective and observations. Usually it seems to be more about anger and dehumanizing/vilifying women then any persuit of truth. Secondly, and more importantly, I want my SO to judge my nature based on my actions, but his idea if women nature in general. In some ways I follow the RP idea of female nature, and in other ways I don't. Why try to use your uses if a generic woman to figure out me? Use your knowledge of me to figure out me. An insistence otherwise it's only going to spell disaster. Such as me yelling "English mother fucker, do you speak it?!" When he gets me expensive jewelry after I tell him I don't like it.

No human endeavour is without fault, but that does not mean one should deny biology. If it is a reality, one should try to look at it if it advances one's knowledge. Obviously, that's never going to be done perfectly.

We all want all sorts of things, but people can't be controlled according to our own whims. If there is useful information out there, people will seek it and seek to use it to their advantage. With any known tendencies amongst a particular demographic, one always has to use it in context. One need not act on it at all, but one will be inclined to do so if its predictions consistently come to pass.

The bottom line is that people will seek and use whatever information is helpful.

[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman-1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]gasparddelanuit0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

All you are doing is looking at the Red Pill failures and counting them as the totality of the entire Red Pill experience.

If somebody has truly learned everything that they need (note that I say "they need" not everything in total) from their RP experience, then most women (that are susceptible to a given approach) won't even notice that they are a "manufactured RP" as opposed to a "natural RP." They will just go out into the world, date the women that they wish to date and life goes on.

If you look at the RP gurus, they will be the first to tell you that the transformation is neither easy or quick, and it's not for the faint-hearted or weak-willed.

What you and others are seeing are the male masses flooding in thinking that the RP is a bottle of gunk from a medicine show:

"That's right; step right up, gentlemen! This right here is the famous Red Pill Tonic! It'll cure all that ails you; asthma, balding, erectile dysfunction! It'll straighten your teeth, clear up your acne, and make you put on 30 pounds of pure muscle...just one swig a day for a week and it will change your life! And most importantly, it will drastically improve your 'most essential male pheromone excretions, making the ladies come to you in droves! Step right up and buy your bottle today!"

Except that it never claimed to be a medicine show or any sort of "cure-all" for male dating problems...except that the fact is that if you do everything that you are supposed to do, then it will almost certainly improve your your dating life as it is a definite fact that improving your overall health, hygiene, confidence, conversational skills, and grooming/fashion, individually, will make you more attractive to women overall. So what happens when you find a package that if followed allows you to improve all of those items?

But I digress....

The point again is that most of these men that you are seeing in the current TRP sub and other places, spouting all of that woman hate and nonsense are RP failures. It's not working for them because they are not doing everything that they are supposed to be doing, for whatever reason (i.e. lazy, heart not really into it, rushing the process, etc...).

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[–]tiger1296A little bit of both8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Giraffeasauras-1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Rollo Tomassi (author of The Rational Male I, II, and III) has been happily married for a long time and has a daughter. TRP philosophy is not against marriage, it is against committing to marriage without being prepared for the possible fallout given the % of couples who divorce. He absolutely recommends getting married if you are a man who can handle himself and commit to sticking with your wife through thick and thin. He just posits that in order to do that as a man you need to be self-confident and willing to lead and take calculated risks. He recommends that if you are an "incel hillbully" type to NOT get married and tries to teach them how to be happy with themselves and their own accomplishments instead of them focusing all their energy on women who aren't interested in them. Funnily enough, improving yourself and working to be the best version of yourself that you can be is actually attractive.

TRP is not a guide for dating. It is a premise about the ways in which men and women interact in Western society. Incel is not part of TRP. The only reason incels from the r/incel subreddit started posting on r/TRP is because Reddit nuked the r/incel subreddit for being toxic and generally awful.

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Title	Marrying Redpill Men
Author	Szymmy
Upvotes	39
Comments	204
Date	November 17, 2018 12:45 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/9xw3oa/marrying_redpill_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/marrying-redpill-men.259001 https://theredarchive.com/post/259001

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