Not lifting. | PurplePillDebate

genki-sama · 2015-07-12T15:24:05+00:00

Are there really BPers who believe that lifting is inherently bad, not natural? I witnessed an exchange between two people and I must say I was taken aback by...

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he doesn't talk about being a man, let alone "more of" one

I know, thats the point, thats part of the game. It sounds weak when you explain why you're making fun of male group "x". But making fun of other men (especially while talking to women) almost always involves implying that you are a better man. If you stated it directly it would make you appear weak and insecure.

He just looks down on douchebags

He defines douchebags according to a popular definition, a definition that is popular because many men like to find ways to place themselves above other men on the hierarchy, and one way is to advertise themselves as more "refined and intelligent" than "dumb weightlifting bros". I'm sure in many cases they are right, but how correct they are has no bearing on the purpose of this behavior.

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But doing cardio is more exciting?

Nope. Actually exercise for the sake of exercise is boring. Playing rugby, soccer or whatever is more interesting. But in any way, generally sport is bland and boring and if that's how you define your personality then you are also bland and boring. It's necessary but it should not define your identity. It's only a mean to an end.

By the way, I could make the same point about shopping

That you don't like it? Yeah I guess, but I don't give a fuck. My opinion is that shopping is a fucking chore and I do so only when I need to. I fail to see the relevance toward our discussion though. Yeah, people will have different tastes, and yeah, it's also okay to judge them for it. You can't just be friend with everyone, or if you do then you lack personality and flavor.

but drawing the logical conclusion from what this implies would make a bluepiller's head implode

I don't think so. I can only guess why you would need to delude yourself into thinking that everyone is a victim and pathetic, but that would not fit the tone here. Please remain civil and avoid embarassing yourself with your brain sharts, I couldn't care less about your dubious logic.

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[–]GODZILLAFLAMETHROWERBlue Pill Man-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree, but that doesn't lead me to make sweeping generalizations about people who like, say, athletics and take pride in their achievements.

Okay, that's fine, we all have our ways to relate to different people. Mine is to immediately shoot down people who think this is interesting because we will have diverging interests and I don't want to waste both of our time. I certainly make mistakes that way, but it's not like there is any lack of people to meet. I can pass a few opportunities.

it's practically a cliché that it's mostly women who go on shopping sprees, that you could accuse them of being bland and boring as well

But I do! Women who defines a good time as going shopping are fucking hell to talk to. I can fuck them, but that's all. Yeah, they're also bland and boring.

I dont get it. Why is everyone so hell bent on trying to say that everything is okay and you should be nice to everyone and yada yada? Fucking hell, I don't have time for this bullshit. It's tiring. It's not that I'm better than them, it's juste that I'm different and I don't give a fuck about their way to live their lives. I become mad if I'm forced to stay with this kind of people.

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[–]DStoo 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (115 children) | Copy Link

NonTRPers are against lifting being the only one true form of fitness. Especially when medical sources (Not "NerdFitness")

Harvard Medical School. Notice what the first line is? Weight Lifting: General at a low 133 Calories for 185 lb person for 30 minutes. Even "Weight Lifting: Vigarous" is only 266 calories. Above that you have Step Aerobics, Low Impact, Stationary Bicycling: moderate, Calisthenics: virgarous, Circuit Training: General. Under the sports category there's Race Walking.

Race Walking burns more calories than vigorous weight lifting. (289 calories vs 266 calories), soccer, tennis, basketball, football touch, hockey, rock climbing, running, skiing, snow shoeing, backstroke swimming, ... should I go on?

Here's a separate list from university of kentucky. For a 130 lb person they list body building at 354 calories. That means that Wallyball, Tennis, Track and Field (hurdles), Tae kwan do, Swimming, stationary cycling, stair machine, etc all burn more.

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Can you give one example of a professional athlete in a major U.S. sport (baseball, football, basketball, hockey) who doesn't do weight training?

Can you point me to a TRPer who is paid enough to have the time to do all of it, along with the degreed trainers to assist them (GLO does not have a degree in this).

I thought advice here and on TRP was for the average pre-TRPer who is about ready to take the plunge that TRP suggests ignoring all other alternatives. They do not have the time available to do this. This model is not sustainable.

Want to tell me what those professional athletes look like 10-15 years after they retire? What percentage of those hard core lifters stay in shape?

Other athletes. Non lifters. Are the ones that look 20 into their 40s and 50s. The most fit guys I know that work demanding jobs (people with professional degrees) are the ones that still play racquetball or swim.

Compared to a lot of the non-degreed 'body builders' I knew in my 20s. They don't have demanding jobs at all but the second they stop lifting their bodies go to hell. Find your local high school reunion and go to the 20th and 25th. Find the 'body builders' and 'Chads' from highschool. Statistically speaking I've beaten the odds over a lot of my classmates from highschool and even college. Even with GLO's wildly inflated body fat estimation (from just a photo) I'm still in the ideal range Statistically. I'm better off than almost everyone in my age group. [I want to follow GLO into his 40s to watch the popcorn trainwreck].

Why? Because I figured out setting dedicated time aside for lifting wasn't worth the time sunk into it. This was my late 20s. I changed gears and learned to play Rugby. (A friend of mine played and invited me to joint the team). There are people that put 2 hours a week into it and play into their 40s. I bought a sledge hammer and a free tractor tire off of craigslist. I bought a Kayak. Between my 2 purchases I spent less than you have on your gym in a year.

Rather than drive 10 minutes out of the way to the gym. As soon as I got out of my car I picked up the sledge hammer and 'split' the tire. 20 times per side. Took a minute or two and I didn't go to the gym.

I have a huge driveway and still shovel by hand. I like bonfires and split and haul all of my own trees. Rather than spend an hour at the gym, plus 10-20 minutes out of my way driving there I can kayak around a local lake.

Break the NFL play time down and there's only 11 minutes of action. Break down your gym time into actual workout time and compare it to what you could be doing instead. "Lifting", if you want to have any sort of life, is unsustainable into your 40s.

Put the time in now and you can come out ahead of the game. Stick with lifting and follow the path of all the other people that stopped lifting.

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After reading your comment here and all the trailing replies, I have learned that you are spreading very minimal information about gaining muscle/fitness.

First of all:

Gain muscle: Lift heavy things for 10-12 reps

This is incorrect in and of itself. You also need to eat more calories than your body is consuming to gain muscle, and it needs to be appropriate nutrition (i.e., macronutrients).

Secondly: 10-12 reps indicates your are doing volume training. So you just screwed your own comment here:

That generally has a direct correlation with how strong someone is. ;-)

If you are training for strength, 10 - 12 reps per set is by far NOT the correct way to do this. Powerlifting programs such as SS, SL5x5 and even Texas Method have you lifting more weight for less reps.

There is significant evidence that supports this theory (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6890445 for example.

In all seriousness, you're correct, but only partially correct. If you're going to use "strength correlates to muscle size" you might as well as well at least provide the best method for doing it, especially if you're going to promote it.

[–]OlBastardRP|She said she was 18.1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I was not intending to write a guide to gainz, that is to say, I was being more facetious than serious.

Disclaimer: I'm not much into lifting now - I was - but not not anymore. Bodyweight training is more of my forte.

Nevertheless, yes, protein is needed to build muscle, as well as enough calories and nutrients to supplement the body as for it to not steal from the protein allocated to be used in myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

Yes, there are multiple training paradigms, and hypertrophy gains fall below the rep range for endurance training, just as strength gains fall below the rep range for hypertrophy.

Your muscle size is what is relevant to your SMV in 99% of cases, so it is what I used to center my example. And yes, optimizing muscle size is potentially not optimizing your strength, however, a strong correlation exists.

Thanks for clearing it up for the noobies though.

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I'd love for you to line up a track runner and a power lifter and ask them both to help you to help you do anything arduous - like lifting a couch, or opening a jar, or any other idiotic examples you can think of.

If only there were options between track runner and power lifter. I guess we'll never know.

So which one of GLO's alts are you?

I think you should stop arguing this point, because it's clear you have a stigma against people who lift, and that's impacting your ability to impartially judge strength training as an highly effective form of exercise.

It's an unsustainable method. I've seen it before and I'll see it again. I can't wait until GLO hits his 30s. I knew a dozen guys like him in their younger 20s. It's a whole lot of schadenfreude all around.

I'm speaking directly to future TRPers who think they don't have time to lift or don't want to get a gym membership. People that all TRPers are telling they HAVE to lift. All I'm saying is that there are dozens of better, more sustainable, alternatives.

But if you want to lift and burn out of it in a few months, by all means. Throw your money away.

[–]TrePismn7 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nope. I actually hate TRP, TBP, and everything about these debates. I lift regularly, and the topic interested me.

Unsuitable? You having a bunch of lazy, complacent, easily defeated friends is no reflection on weight lifting as an activity. The fact that people burn out after a few months of exercise is no reflection on weight lifting as an activity. Human laziness is universal to all forms of exercise and activities in general.

If the scrawny, skinny, disproportionate look is what you're going for, by all means, solely spend your time cycling, running, or whatever.

But know if you want a well balanced, aesthetic physique, good general health, and practical strength, weight-lifting will always be there. If you plan on not looking like an idiot curling tinned beans and pushing your car around any time soon - weight-lifting will always be there, DStoo. Good luck on your crusade.

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What is the point of this link? What does this tell me about building muscle? It might be helpful to somebody who is training for a marathon.

My body uses calories when I lift, of course, but gaining muscle doesn't always correlate with burning calories. Again, marathon runners prove this. Gaining muscle is all about hypertrophy. If you want to actually understand what factors in to weightlifting/bodybuilding, here is the actual science behind it, instead of going on strange tangents about burning calories and aerobic respiration.

the purpose of this paper is twofold: (a) to extensively review the literature as to the mechanisms of muscle hypertrophy and their application to exercise training and (b) to draw conclusions from the research as to the optimal protocol for maximizing muscle growth.

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[–]holyjesusitsahorseA Whiter Shade Of Pale6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Well, yes, gee, if you spend three hours a week on self-improvement, that's three hours a week you can't spend watching Little House On The Prarie reruns, or hoarding scat porn. I've never actually met anyone in the first world, of any age, that couldn't spare three hours a week to do something rewarding to develop themselves, it's just that they'd rather waste their time on stuff that doesn't matter.

But ok, if you want a special snowflake medal, I'm happy to concede that if you live in the mountains, work 16 hours a day disassembling tractors and keeping wolves away from the sheep by fighting them off with your bare hands, maybe you don't need to lift weights. This is not particularly a caveat that I feel needs to be provided as a general rule to young men asking for help on the internet.

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Gee, that's great, but as an adult I have to go to work in the mornings and they haven't invented hoverboards yet.

That said, yes, somehow I manage not only to work full-time, travel there and back, work out three times a week, do a sport for a further three sessions a week, socialise, and still have time to argue stupid bullshit on the internet for hours on end. So I have very little time for people who are somehow "too busy" to do any research or to get in shape.

And honestly, no. Other than vocational education, I can't think of anything that's more worthwhile to spend money on than your own health and fitness. It wasn't, you know, a close run thing between "looking and feeling good by doing something enjoyable and rewarding" and "buying all the box sets of Buffy The Vampire Slayer". Now, I'm sure I could save a marginal amount of money if I went around doing curls with milk cartons, but I could also stop buying new shoes and wear empty tissue boxes on my feet instead. I mean, that's just as good, right?

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I consider lifting to be the most efficient way to build muscle, because of the level of control you have over the load that you're using, and the fact that you can easily train all the muscles of the body.

Second to lifting would be some sort of bodyweight/gymnastics training (chinups, dips, rows, pistol squats, l-sits, etc.). That stuff is a fine substitute for people who don't want to lift.

Third I'd say rock-climbing or swimming or something like that. This stuff isn't in the same league as the above things, but much better than nothing.

So I'm not someone who insists that lifting is the only way to go. It's the most efficient, but there are many other options.

The examples you have (curling groceries, carrying around your laptop) are not what I would consider good for building strength/muscle, though. It's difficult to control the load, first of all. After three months on a lifting program, you'll be using noticeably heavier weights. After three months on a gymnastics/bodyweight program, you'll be doing noticeably harder movements or noticeably more reps on the same movement. How do you progress using your examples? Are you going to buy more groceries at once, or buy a heavier laptop? Also, you're working very specific muscles with those things. Curling groceries only works your biceps (and other muscles of the forearms).

[–]DStoo -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]dakruNeither5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Which isn't what most TRPers do.

If someone says that bodyweight/gymnastics training isn't a good way to build strength/muscle then I'll argue against them. I haven't seen anyone do that in this thread, though.

Also, I want to point out that the position that you seem to be taking isn't "lifting isn't the only good way to get strong". If it was, you probably wouldn't have been arguing against me, because I also think that lifting isn't the only good way to get strong. Instead of saying that lifting isn't the only way, you seem to be saying that lifting is a bad way, by arguing that it's inherently unsustainable (although I don't think you've provided a reason why you think that, other than a video of someone who lives in a van).

Exactly how you suggest. I used to only be able to curl a half full basket. Now I'll load the cart up and curl the entire back end of the cart full of dog food.

So you do this for, say, 5-10 sets a week (a decent number to build strength). How do you progress into the future? And what about the rest of your body? Curls only work a small part of your body. What exercises do you do on a regular basis that are comparable to squats, deadlifts, rows, and presses? (or for the gymnastics equivalents: pistol squats, l-sits, dips, chinups, front lever, back lever)

[–]DStoo -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

(although I don't think you've provided a reason why you think that, other than a video of someone who lives in a van).

How old are you? How many friends do you have that lift exclusively? How did they look at your 20 year high school reunion? Even the guys that lifted hard core through college. Once life happened they had an unsustainable model of fitness.

What exercises do you do on a regular basis that are comparable to squats, deadlifts, rows, and presses?

When I need to move my car. I push it around the garage. I'll dead lift tree trunks onto my shoulders to carry them back. Rows I'm planning on getting a kayak but in the mean time I use an axe to fell trees. I have a huge sled that I use for gardening. It weighs close to 80 lbs unloaded. I'll grab the chain and pull it around.

[–]dakruNeither2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Again, I've seen plenty of older people in the gym lifting. They're not as common as younger people lifting, but the same can be said for running or practically any sport. What specifically about lifting makes it unsustainable?

When I need to move my car. I push it around the garage. I'll dead lift tree trunks onto my shoulders to carry them back. Rows I'm planning on getting a kayak but in the mean time I use an axe to fell trees. I have a huge sled that I use for gardening. It weighs close to 80 lbs unloaded. I'll grab the chain and pull it around.

If you do these things consistently (a few hours a week dedicated to the movements) then that can build decent strength, sure. (Certainly better than curling milk jugs.) Of course, my position has never been that other types of training are bad. If someone has all of this stuff and they seriously train with it then that's great for them (although it's not practical for a lot of people who live in cities).

[–]DStoo 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What percentage of those hard core lifters stay in shape? You already mentioned it's a lower number. Now how many people in their 50s and 60s do you know that are in shape yet don't do any sports?

Other athletes. Non lifters. Are the ones that look 20 into their 40s and 50s. The most fit guys I know that work demanding jobs (people with professional degrees) are the ones that still play racquetball or swim or other non demanding sports play.

Compared to a lot of the non-degreed 'body builders' I knew in my 20s. They don't have demanding jobs at all but the second they stop lifting their bodies go to hell. Find your local high school reunion and go to the 20th and 25th. Find the 'body builders' and 'Chads' from highschool. Statistically speaking I've beaten the odds over a lot of my classmates from highschool and even college. Even with GLO's wildly inflated body fat estimation (from just a photo) I'm still in the ideal range Statistically. I'm better off than almost everyone in my age group. [I want to follow GLO into his 40s to watch the popcorn trainwreck].

Why? Because I figured out setting dedicated time aside for lifting wasn't worth the time sunk into it. This was my late 20s. I changed gears and learned to play Rugby. (A friend of mine played and invited me to joint the team). There are people that put 2 hours a week into it and play into their 40s. I bought a sledge hammer and a free tractor tire off of craigslist. I bought a Kayak. Between my 2 purchases I spent less than you have on your gym in a year.

Rather than drive 10 minutes out of the way to the gym. As soon as I got out of my car I picked up the sledge hammer and 'split' the tire. 20 times per side. Took a minute or two and I didn't go to the gym.

I have a huge driveway and still shovel by hand. I like bonfires and split and haul all of my own trees. Rather than spend an hour at the gym, plus 10-20 minutes out of my way driving there I can kayak around a local lake.

Break the NFL play time down and there's only 11 minutes of action. Break down your gym time into actual workout time and compare it to what you could be doing instead. "Lifting", if you want to have any sort of life, is unsustainable into your 40s.

Even if you put a jug of water next to your couch you can stand up and do it every commercial and still come out with more cumulative lifting time than a gym. In college rather than going to the gym we would do burpies every time we fell off the Mario Kart track. If you work 'working out' into your daily life it's not really working out any more as a separate time (and money) suck.

Put the time in now and you can come out ahead of the game. Stick with lifting and follow the path of all the other people that stopped lifting.

[–]dakru2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I enjoy lifting very much. It does not cost me much money, and the money I do spend on it, I consider money well spent. I also enjoy running (which I sometimes do at the gym, and sometimes outside, depending on the weather). Lifting takes me about 4 hours each week (including travel time), and running takes me about 2 hours each week. I think that six hours each week for my fitness is very sustainable and entirely worth it.

I don't really know what would make me stop doing these things that I enjoy so much (if I'm ever crunched for time then I spend less/no time on reddit), but if something that I can't think of happens and I'm unable to continue, I'll be happy to have enjoyed so many years of my life in good physical condition doing activities that I enjoy.

Again, to be clear, I'm not saying that lifting is the only way to build strength. Gymnastics/bodyweight training is good too, and even some of what you talked about (pulling heavy sleds, pushing cars, etc.) can work, although it's not very practical for a lot of us who live in cities (and I'd certainly consider it less efficient---there's a reason athletes who need strength training do lifting, which is that you have a lot of control over the load and you can hit all the muscles in the body really well with ~6 exercises).

I really don't understand the strong hatred you have for lifting. I mean, do you honestly think that it's impossible to continue lifting into old age? Your argument for that was posting a video of a guy living in his van. That didn't make much sense. Is your hatred for lifting based on dislike for people you went to high school with who lifted with you?

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Notice what the first line is? Weight Lifting: General at a low 133 Calories for 185 lb person for 30 minutes. Even "Weight Lifting: Vigarous" is only 266 calories. Above that you have Step Aerobics, Low Impact, Stationary Bicycling: moderate, Calisthenics: virgarous, Circuit Training: General. Under the sports category there's Race Walking.

But building muscles requires a lot more calories. Its not at the gym that the majority of the calories are used up.

Soccer, tennis, basketball, football touch, hockey, rock climbing, running, skiing

Basketball players in athletic teams, as well as football players, and hockey players all have weight lifting incorporated into their training. Heavy weight training. Part of the requirements to get into a good school (say Michigan State) on their football team is being able to bench 225lbs for 10 reps or more. If you want to be the best at your sport, you need to incorporate weight training.

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There are many reasons a guy might not bench at the combine, but a weak player can't hide forever -- especially if teams are already worried about his strength, as they would be with our hypothetical guy who purposefully avoids it. Either they'll bench at a later pro day or workout (after further training) or teams will assume they're hurt, weak, or both and downgrade them accordingly. It's not as if most of the players who didn't bench are skill players, either -- there's just no way a LB, DL, or OL plans on hiding an atrocious bench and still landing on a roster.

This is much different from benching 225 as a requirement for being on a D1 football team.

The original argument was "Part of the requirements to get into a good school (say Michigan State) on their football team is being able to bench 225lbs for 10 reps or more." While this isn't literally true (they won't turn down a stud kicker or blazing fast corner with a poor bench) it's likely that for a majority of positions they're looking for considerable strength.

[–]DStoo -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]hohamocha 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

And what do those athletes look like 5-10 years out of college? How about the ones that don't make it to the professionals? When they stop lifting

Usually they lose a lot of muscle mass, or the gain a lot of fat. Just like how a runner or other fitness person would lose or gain weight once they stopped.

How about the ones that don't make it to the professionals

Well it isnt like not making it as a pro causes them to stop lifting.

When they stop lifting (Since it's unsustainable long term).

If you go to the gym regularly when you are older and lift the same amount, you will keep the muscle you have, but it will be hard gaining muscle. And furthermore, if your joints are effected, just lower the weight and up the reps.

And how many TRPers are big 10 athletes?

I'm tryign to stress the importance of weightlifting even in other athletics.

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[–]DStoo1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm taking it that you don't read many studies?

Participants:

A total of 141 undergraduate women with a mean age of 20.44 (SD = 3.59) from the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), participated in exchange for extra credit as part of their psychology or communication studies course.

A total of 286 women from UCLA with a mean age of 18.79 (SD = 1.40) volunteered to complete a brief survey at the end of a lower-division psychology class.

470 women from UCLA who participated in a larger study on personality in which the target items for Study 3 were embedded. Participants received research credit as part of a psychology or communication course, or were entered in three lotteries for $50 each. A subset of 82 women who indicated having a past short-term sex partner, as well as another sex partner, completed a dating behavior survey and were included in the current study

Me: "Did you take psych?"
Wife: Yeah. We had to, pre-med had a 1-2 combination requirement of psych- or soc-. I hated sociology .
Me: What type of girls were in your psych class? Like were they the type to dress up for class?
Wife: Oh god. They were all those vapid sorority girls. They were all second semester Psych majors. They were the ones that whined the class was too hard and when there wasn't a curve they complained. <sorority girl>"But like this class is so hard, me and Becky have pledging after this</sorority girl>. The reason there is no curve is because the 3 biology students read the book. The test is literally the book. Just read the fucking book. And they still complained about how hard the tests and homework were.... Is this one of those stupid TRP surveys?"

Then we sat down and analyzed the studies as if they were actual medical or engineering studies.

Sampling/Selection Bias. They were psych majors that had the time to volunteer for a study.
Incentive bias. They gave the class extra credit in the first case. What type of girl needs extra credit in freshmen level Psych at UCLA? Who needs extra credit on their psychology or communication courses for the lottery at $50?
Their P values aren't that great for some of the studies. Lets just say you wouldn't want medicine approved with those correlations.
Recall bias. These were all done on recall.

You want to know what the study study also said? They also think that built & toned is more sexually desirable than brawny. Brawny also scored lowest on commitment and highest on volatility.. Personally Toned/Slender are better over all stats. Toned & Slender are both pretty high for Sexual Desirability. High/Low for physical dominance (depending on what type of girl you want) and both high for commitment and low for volatility. (Unlike Brawny and Built).

More fun quotes from the article. (Which I'm sure you noticed)

Pairwise comparisons indicated that most images differed from each other at the p < .001 level, although some comparisons were only marginally significant at the p < .05 level (Images 1 vs. 5 and Images 3 vs. 5). Images 1 and 7, however, did not differ (p = .595).

Specifically, there was a modest tendency for increased muscularity to be associated with lower ratings of attractiveness, which is explicable by the fact that the extremely muscular men (Images 7-8) were rated particularly unattractive.

These findings support the inverted-U hypothesis that increased muscularity is attractive up to a point, with high and low levels of muscularity being less appealing to women.

Thank you for doing my work for me. I've been too lazy to pick apart an actual study.

So if you really want to appeal to the freshmen Psych major at UCLA who needs extra credit in Psych 101 then by all means, this study is advice on a silver platter.

[–]hohamocha1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You want to know what the study study also said? They also think that built & toned is more sexually desirable than brawny. Brawny also scored lowest on commitment and highest on volatility..

By the way, the graph isnt showing who the women will be most committed to, but how the man will be.

Which is why they are usually the go to built guys for friends with benefits, or affairs. Toned guys and slender guys are more willing to commit, so they rank higher in that sphere. Who is a woman more attracted to, the guy who she gives her pussy to provided that he stays committed to her, or a guy who she gives it to for free, without requiring commitment?

Also slender is very low compared to built and brawny.

Also from the study

Short-term versus long-term partner preferences. Consistent with the prediction derived from mating trade-off theory, women reported that the best short- term partner for them (M=4.88,SD=1.10) was more muscular than the best long-term partner for them (M=4.39,SD=1.02),t(279)=9.15,p<.001,d=.46.

Me: "Did you take psych?"Wife: Yeah. We had to, pre-med had a 1-2 combination requirement of psych- or soc-. I hated sociology .Me: What type of girls were in your psych class? Like were they the type to dress up for class?Wife: Oh god. They were all those vapid sorority girls. They were all second semester Psych majors. They were the ones that whined the class was too hard and when there wasn't a curve they complained. <sorority girl>"But like this class is so hard, me and Becky have pledging after this</sorority girl>. The reason there is no curve is because the 3 biology students read the book. The test is literally the book. Just read the fucking book. And they still complained about how hard the tests and homework were.... Is this one of those stupid TRP surveys?"

That's great, but those vapid sorority girls are usually the more attractive girls on campus. Which is why they are so vapid, due to having relied on their hot girl looks for most of their life.

Sampling/Selection Bias. They were psych majors that had the time to volunteer for a study.

Are you suggesting that they should have been forced to be part of the study? Because thats the only way to do that on a survey in general without snooping in on private lives.

Incentive Bias

In every class I have been to, even in my Calculus classes, everyone does the extra credit, especially if it is a simple opportunity. And in my experience, there are a lot of people who do extra credit, just in case they mess up somehow later on. Even in an introductory psychology course that is a requirement for people to take in some colleges. Not much of an incentive bias because everyone wants easy extra credit.

Recall bias

Happens with almost every survey regarding preferences.

there was a modest tendency for increased muscularity to be associated with lower ratings of attractiveness increased muscularity is attractive up to a point, with high and low levels of muscularity being less appealing to women.

That is because the study is including the high commitment and low volatility factor as a good thing. Essentially, the study is correlating willingness to be in a relationship with as part of the attraction. However, in my opinion, attraction is more shown in what the woman is willing to give away for free in a "friendship-relationship" rather than making the man work for it.

Also if a brawny man is most likely to not remain committed in a woman's mind, isn't he also the man that will find it easiest to get with other women, thus making him the man that is most attractive for a short term fling when other women consider him?

As I said before, if women in psych class are as "vapid" as your wife says they are, then they are also the most attractive. Better become built if you want to fuck hot young women.

Also better become built or brawny if you are against marriage/ staying committed to one woman for the rest of your life.

Thank you for doing my work for me. I've been too lazy to pick apart an actual study.

I've been too lazy to pick apart the actual study, because people do it for me, and I just show how the stuff they pick apart further benefits my point

Honestly if being slender is working for you, go for it. In my experience this study validates a lot of what Ive seen and experienced. I'm in the brawny category, closing in at 195lbs 5'10, and women initiate like crazy, even the ones in my Calculus classes. But, they really don't want to be in a relationship with me and try to stay with the boyfriend they are cheating with me on. It is kind of hard finding a relationship,a s sometimes I feel they are just using me for my body. But thats life.

[–]DStoo1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Are you suggesting that they should have been forced to be part of the study? Because thats the only way to do that on a survey in general without snooping in on private lives.

I pointed out the bias, not how to control for it. There would be multiple ways to control for it including offering the survey to classes other than Psych.

Even in an introductory psychology course that is a requirement for people to take in some colleges. Not much of an incentive bias because everyone wants easy extra credit.

Psych != Calculus. There were only one type of person that needed extra credit in Psych class. Usually future college dropouts.

Happens with almost every survey regarding preferences.

Other than studies that don't use recall.

By the way, the graph isnt showing who the women will be most committed to, but how the man will be.

That's what I said, meaning brawny is probably one of the worst combination of features. As I pointed out other categories are better.

As I said before, if women in psych class are as "vapid" as your wife says they are, then they are also the most attractive. Better become built if you want to fuck hot young women.

... You know that vapidity(?) doesn't indicate hotness, right?

and I just show how the stuff they pick apart further benefits my point

Except it doesn't. The study is flawed.

But, they really don't want to be in a relationship with me and try to stay with the boyfriend they are cheating with me on. It is kind of hard finding a relationship,a s sometimes I feel they are just using me for my body. But thats life.

ROFL. Yes, I have a bridge to sell anyone that believes this.

[–]hohamocha1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

... You know that vapidity(?) doesn't indicate hotness, right?

And you know that being in a psychology introduction class and wanting extra credit doesn't necessarily indicate being vapid, right? If you are using your wife's experience to judge these girls, then it is fair that I use my own experience to judge these girls as well. Vapid sorority girls are usually attractive because they have relied on their hot girl looks for most of their life. And one can also argue as well that the more academically serious girls would jump at the chance for easy extra credit.

By the way, the graph isnt showing who the women will be most committed to, but how the man will be.

And i just demonstrated that the factors of being seen as stable and committed are in fact not good factors when judging how much the woman is attracted to you.

ROFL. Yes, I have a bridge to sell anyone that believes this.

Yes, must be why there is a girl I am in a fwb with now who explicitly told me that she wants sex. And guess what? She has a boyfriend. So you are telling me she actually wants to be in a relationship with me, by your statement?

The study is flawed.

Not really.

Other than studies that don't use recall.

Most survey about personal matters use recall. Especially in one of this nature. Do you expect a woman to take pictures of the guys she has been banging throughout her life and have it on access in her Iphone.

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[–][deleted] 11 years ago* [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

I think you just have a thing for tall guys.

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[–][deleted] 11 years ago* [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

It's that bulking up a muscle shortens the general appearance, and it's not a look I find appealing

wut

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[–][deleted] 11 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Lol can you show a picture of what you mean?

I doubt anyone here understands what the hell you're talking about. It seem that you're trying to backtrack your "long muscles" statement into something that is usually called something else like lean or skinny.

[–]Cbus_anonymous0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm sorry you're ignorant, but that's not my concern here anyway.

Fusiform means a general linear shape that tapers at the ends. A lean version would be a cigar, a fat fusiform shape would be the opening to the eye.

Bundles of muscle are fusiform to begin with, with their points of attachment being skinny relative to the portions comprised of clusters of muscle cells. The bulkier the middle portion becomes, the shorter the estimate of length becomes.

As an example, this guy looks incredibly short and squat because he's become so ludicrously bulky. But it doesn't have to get to that extent. The musculature of a cross country runner is lean and lengthy, regardless of the runner's height. It's also tremendously strong. For the final time, this is the look I prefer. You sound like you have some sort of height complex.

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The point I'm driving towards is that I've found that people have completely unrealistic understandings and expectations of male bodies, mostly because they've spent thirty years looking at men who take supplemental hormones (steroids) and think that you work out for six months and turn into Hulk Hogan. But that's not actually what happens, and I don't believe that anyone in TRP is suggesting that Rich Piana is the apex of male SMV.

A man with a natural hormone profile simply isn't going to look like that, even if he's spending hours in the gym. If a guy came to me and told me he wanted to look like Cristiano Ronaldo, I'd tell him to lift weights. Trust me, he doesn't get that body just from playing football. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd absolutely recommend to young guys to take up a sport as well, since I think that's a vital part of building relationships with other men, but advice of "play badminton once a week, also move some furniture or whatever" just isn't going to give people the results they think it is.

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lol LIFTING will NOT get you much with women.

I lift and I use a TRT-level dose, occasionally use GHRP-6 and have used dbol before, but whatever, it has only maybe gotten more sex with one or two more women than not lifting.

I go to the gym and I see lots of GYM-cels (gym + incel). In fact, the gym is like a homing beacon for insecure incels. I see all sorts of balding, short, ugly men there. But yeah, I am sure a girl is really impressed that a balding, 5'9" manlet can OHP 185 pounds.

This is ALL you need, in terms of body

It isnt that hard. Lift 2 to 3 times a week and eat sensible. Or you could be a weirdo on the misc who obsesses over diet plans and BCAA and periodization...Oh yeah, brah, I just hit 500 pounds on the deadlift, sl00ts be mirin' -- delusional gymcel talk.

so, yeah, gym is perfectly fine, but to think it really matters to attracting women is delusional.

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Zyzz was attractive, tall, had work done (rhinoplasty and veneers) and was really a low inhibition, funny guy

Sorry I changed the example. But zyzz was muscular. If tall was all he needed to get a lot of girls, he wouldnt have gone on his 4 year journey at the gym. He stated one of the reasons he went tot he gym was the attention that big ripped guys got from women. This reminds me of the "its all about the facial aesthetics" shit on the misc.

5'8" tren monster with the typical misc autism / introversion is still repulsive to women

Well social skills matter for sure, but women will definitely try and talk to said guy to express interest. If sean o'pry had autism, he wouldn't get laid either. However, given that both men are mentally sane, the balding 5'8 tren monster would succeed at getting that ass.

[–][deleted] 11 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I'll take the Bieber clone please! Unnngggh ... who is that?

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[removed]

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[–]dakruNeither0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The first picture is harder to tell because it's baggy, but I doubt he's muscular.

The second picture (polo) is easier to tell. It's also baggy, but he looks boney in it and doesn't fill it out at all.

The third picture doesn't appear to have much mass in the arms or chest (or forearms, which are directly visible), so again I'd say not muscular.

The fourth picture is pretty easy to tell also. That guy is not muscular.

Here are some of my own examples. In this picture, it's easier to tell that he's muscular with the better fitted clothes on the right, but I can still tell with the left. (Of course, I fully acknowledge that some clothes make it easier to tell than other clothes.)

Here's a well-built guy in a long sleeve shirt. It's pretty well-fitted but even if it wasn't, his build would still be visible.

Here's another guy in a t-shirt. Even if you took away his arms, you could still tell that he's muscular from his chest and shoulders (and, if he turned around, likely his back too).

I mean, if you took a hummer and a regular car and put a sheet over both of them to cover them completely, you could still tell which is which.

[–]Cbus_anonymous0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DStoo -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

Since you're just talking about my exchange you might as well copy and paste my reply:

It lasts longer. It's more sustainable. What do you think happens to your body when you stop lifting? I haven't personally known a single person that has stopped lifting and instantly cut their calorie intake.

If you learn to manage your eating (<2000 Cal/day) and do stuff sustainable you can easily stay into shape.

I work 'lifting' into my daily life by doing things the hard way.

I 'lift' at the grocery store. Get the hand basket and do non stop curls & reverse curls as you go around the store. It's stuff that I have to do anyway. When I have to move my car around the driveway/garage I do it without starting it. Put into neutral and just push it. My laptop is a 17" 10 lb behemoth and I'll walk around the house one handed with it all the time.

We like to have bon fires. Rather than buying or chainsawing firewood I bought a cheap double bit axe. I fell, cut and haul all of it by hand. Pick up a sport that you can play into your 40s and 50s like tennis or racquetball. They burn more calories than lifting and are easier to sustain into old age.

Every single 'body builder' I knew in my younger 20s stopped lifting when life got busy and their bodies reflect that. I'm probably the person most in shape out of my entire highschool class. Mainly because I built up sustainable health skills rather than just "Lift Brah".

</end copy

Especially when you consider how boring everyone sounded in this question thread.

I didn't need to lift because it was between split wood or the house freezes. I had 4th of July with some friends that could have been any average TRPer, some had never cut down a tree in their life.

I didn't need to lift before wrestling because that's the year my starter died and I couldn't afford to replace it. I spent ~4-5 months pop starting my car.

I didn't need to lift because we couldn't afford a garage or any tools. I an transmission on grass

I didn't need to lift because I couldn't afford a hoist. So when I finally did have a house I deadlifted my 2.0L engine block to my work bench. (And still have the scar on my arm from where a point dug in).

And now I don't need to lift because I still do things the hard way. I don't need to cut trees for heat. But I do it so we can have bon fires. I could buy a tractor to make my life easier but I like man handling my TroyBilt Tiller just like my dad. Want to do a lat pull down? Pull a tiller into the ground in 5 minute increments.

Want to build your quads while gaming? Get rid of your chair and do sit squats in increasing increments of time. Need milk? Get it first and hold it at an L for the entire rest of your shopping. Lifting is unsustainable because eventually you will run out of time or spend a disproportionate amount of time doing it.

Until you're the guy living in a van at Gold's Gym.

[–]dakruNeither7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]DStoo 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

but it's entirely possible to lift weights well into old age.

Yeah, like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Cv6SE3Kvo

Someone who's into running might have to stop someday, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't ever start.

And running is more sustainable long term. Even if you don't run figuring out how to work in small amounts of exercise into everything you do is easier than trying to find a chunk of time set aside to exercise.

When we redid the border around our house I hauled all of the river rock, by hand, from where it was dumped. No wheel barrow. No tractor. A 5 gallon bucket at a time. And the thing is at the end of the week I had spent just as much time as I would have driving to the gym, changing, lifting for an hour, driving home but I also had new border around the house.

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[–]genki-sama 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

And its not killing time if it spent doing something of value. My father owns his own business. Can do a fuck ton of stuff(in that he is highly skilled) . Can barely take time to do stuff that needs to be done in the house, like repairing certain things. All round poor manager of time. However he takes at least 5 hours in the week in his busy as fuck schedule to exercise. Going to the gym was taking time and money and fuel so fuck it, he bought home gym equipment and a bar. Saved himself some money. He bought this stuff saying it is an investment in yourself and in your health. He wants to be around for all five kids to see the children.

His work consists of lots of heavy lifting, but he was hardly fit. Going by the logic of your OP he was following it to a T. His fitness was not impacted by that. Sure he was strong(dad strength is the strongest) but he was not healthy. His diet was shit and he had a belly(not from alcohol). So he made a change. Cut out all the fat and salt and unhealthy stuff. Started lifting. His waist was a 40,he's now a 34.

That little incorporation of fitness isnt* gonna do much for your health.

[–]DStoo 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]genki-sama 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]barbadosslim-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Not lifting.
Author	genki-sama
Upvotes	5
Comments	286
Date	July 12, 2015 3:24 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3d0qbc/not_lifting/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/not-lifting.281080 https://theredarchive.com/post/281080

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