“Toxic Masculinity” is bred from women’s hypergamy

Retrojazzer17 · 2021-07-11T12:55:00+00:00

When these women go for the top % if men, more often than not they "have" those toxic characteristics. I believe those "toxic" traits are actually successful/attractive traits becuase if they weren't, women would not go after the top men and go for average men. If women stopped going after these "toxic" men, they wouldn't be complaining about toxic masculinity.

woxmei · 2021-07-10T19:54:46+00:00

Toxic masculinity is a sexist term that means nothing and anyone who uses the term should be ignored.

WilliamWyattD · 2021-07-12T05:49:48+00:00

Jesus. This the kind of thing that makes many women believe that all evo psych is bullshit.

Male and female behavior and psychology obviously evolved in a feedback loop over millennia. But there are other factors too, like say adapting to the environment. You have to be very careful in trying to neatly sum up complex interactions that we don't fully understand.

Best evidence seems to show that to a great extent women farmed out much of their mate selection to men. They let men compete, and then picked the winners. Men didn't compete based on arbitrary criteria. The criteria would have been based on what works, either in terms of being more adapted to the environment or being adapted to dominating other men. So to the extent there is toxic masculinity, it would have been male on male competition that originally led to it.

Of course, as certain types of male behavior consistently contributed to beating out other men in the male competition, women also became attracted to it. So yes, if such behavior suddenly ceases to be as useful in terms of being competent, female attraction may take a while to catch up. But so might male psychology. Many aspects of 'toxic masculinity' that are no longer environmentally adaptive still impress other men, too. It isn't just female psychology that takes a while to change.

gammaJinx · 2021-07-11T01:50:18+00:00

Toxic masculinity ain’t a thing

Pilling_it · 2021-07-10T19:38:51+00:00

Toxic masculinity is a concept created by entities I do not see as women to shove in whichever behavior they don't like and attribute it to men when it's regular shitty behavior in the justified cases.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2021-07-12T01:24:26+00:00

A lot of women today complain about toxic masculinity, which usually comes down to men’s aggressiveness and hyper competitive nature.

I'm not sure that's entirely true, because women often (not always, but often) define "toxic masculinity" as "anything men do that doesn't benefit me or center around me."

For example, some feminists treat male spaces and male solidarity as a form of toxic masculinity despite the fact that these things are often devoid of male intrasexual competition.

Not to mention, lots of women (and feminists) will treat pro-social/pro-female behavior on the part of men as positive things even in situations where that behavior arguably is a clear case of toxic masculinity (certain forms of White Knighting for example).

So I think your argument could do with refinement, as well as a clear conceptual separation between "toxic masculinity" (i.e. situations where masculinity encourages men to engage in behavior destructive of themselves or others) and "conduct by men that women favor/disfavor."

wtknight · 2021-07-10T16:36:24+00:00

8,000 years ago the top men were basically able to take the women that they wanted for themselves. Women have a lot more say in who they mate with now, so they have the power to call out the part of men's masculine behavior that does not benefit them or has the potential to harm them while still being hypergamous overall.

y2kjanelle · 2021-07-11T01:53:39+00:00

What would make more sense as a response to toxic masculinity would be if men decided to take that and improve upon it. But somehow it's now a thing women created and are using to hurt men.

If you don't like the term toxic masculinity, don't use it then. Either way, men still need flexibility in their masculinity.

If you don't know what I mean go on a male feminist's social media and look at his comments. Other men will prove my point. It's hard to be a man that doesn't align with the traditional idea of a man.

It's why gay men have to be friends with women because straight men find gay men as more feminine and don't take into consideration that they're still men...they're just also gay.

It's also why closeted men tend to get really aggressive, angry and violent, especially towards other gay men. They feel they have something to prove and that being gay will change everything else about them. When really, NOTHING takes away from you being a man. Not long hair, not painted nails, not eyeliner or other types of make up. NOTHING. If you identify as a man, YOU ARE A MAN.

NarniaFox · 2021-07-10T16:49:48+00:00

And here we can see appeal to the nature.

First of all, both hypergamy (the official term, not what TRP calls by it) and toxic masculinity are the result of our gender roles. In some way it's the question of a chicken and an egg. Women had to rely on men for provision and safety as they didn't have much weight in societies and men had to provide these things, because women were depended from them.

Secondly, even if t's totally natural, it doesn't mean that it's okay. Murders and illnesses are also natural, we don't think that we shouldn't do anything to prevent them.

Thirdly, having lots of descendants doesn't necessary mean that a person was the most competitive or aggressive. Being rich and wealthy takes more than just aggression and sometimes it's just a question of luck and your family bloodline.

TheDevilPutD · 2021-07-10T16:42:42+00:00

It is also possible that a saber tooth tiger ate the other 16 guys so the one remaining got to live a non-stop porn movie.

Sneedfeedseed123 · 2021-07-15T12:10:12+00:00

Good post and very true, its too bad this take is met with alot of hostility.

SuperSupremeKai · 2021-07-10T17:05:51+00:00

Now we have reach the point that the individual woman doesn't need or rely on the individual man, thus making toxic masculinity a null point. Sure hypergamy might kick in and they might want a man better than themselves, but that is not required to survive, but wanted to have a better life.

redditradishman · 2021-07-10T17:17:14+00:00

Women could end it overnight if it was truly a problem.

bionix90 · 2021-07-12T23:03:43+00:00

Toxic masculinity exists but it has nearly lost all meaning because everything under the sun gets mislabeled as toxic masculinity.

An actual example of it is a social group where you want to say something and some dude thinks he's the alpha and tries to shut you down and refocus all attention to him. It happens but these situations are outliers, not the norm.

TomorrowsWar · 2021-07-10T16:44:06+00:00

You are responsible for your own actions and feelings. Don’t be a baby and blame others for your actions or thoughts of masculinity

SaBahRub · 2021-07-10T16:36:23+00:00

You don’t need women to precipitate male violence and competitiveness.

Lots of men like beating the heck out of each other and women just to feel awesome about their violent, destructive selves

superlurkage · 2021-07-10T16:42:59+00:00

You do know that for violence and competitiveness to be beneficial, men have to die? You really want to go back to that lovely tradition?

kundalinxi · 2021-07-10T16:43:31+00:00

So we should just accept things that were natural 8,000 years ago and keep doing them? You’re acting like humans, especially men, haven’t been able to develop a higher consciousness and think about their actions

PM_ME_STRIPPERS · 2021-07-11T04:19:44+00:00

toxic masculinity exists but not in the way feminists think or say it does

Mimoxs · 2021-07-10T18:21:29+00:00

which usually comes down to men’s aggressiveness and hyper competitive nature.

No it doesn't lol that's not all it is

This is like a weird version of a straw man fallacy

The stats are that 8000 years ago, only one man reproduce for every 17 women.

But the women weren't the ones choosing who got to breed and who didn't. Other men were. Women were property and would be assigned by their fathers to a man who already had six wives. The girl didn't have a say lol and there are so many accounts of young girls trying to run off with the poor servant boy instead or even killing themselves to avoid having to marry the man.

2021-07-10T17:13:50+00:00

Nope. Toxic masculinity is a number things or a combo.

Women projecting their their toxic feminity on men.
A Shame and humiliate men tactic.
Jerk behavior that both men and women do.

LillthOfBabylon · 2021-07-10T18:00:47+00:00

I love how you guys keep bringing up the past and evolution, completely forgetting that women were oppressed and rape was a widely accepted practice back then.

Men evolved to be more aggressive because someone had to kill predators. Aggressive men were also more likely to rape. You think most slaves wanted to have their master’s children?

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Title	“Toxic Masculinity” is bred from women’s hypergamy
Author	CameronJohns88
Upvotes	36
Comments	153
Date	July 10, 2021 4:32 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ohlxgi/toxic_masculinity_is_bred_from_womens_hypergamy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/toxic-masculinity-is-bred-from-womens-hypergamy.790534 https://theredarchive.com/post/790534

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