Article on women scoring higher than men in IQ tests. The last paragraph takes the biscuit....

Liberhat · 2012-09-10T11:09:22+00:00

I think women probably always knew deep down that they were the more intelligent ones – but as the gentler sex we were quiet about it and let men continue to believe they ruled the world.

Interesting. So back when women lagged men by 5 IQ points, that proved nothing but that the tests were sexist and needed to be fixed because women are just as intelligent as men. But now that women register higher IQs, the test results prove superior female intelligence, which was always the case all along.

Kind of like how when it's noted that women have higher GPAs in college and earn more college degrees, it shows that women make better students. But when men get more degrees in the STEM departments, it means that the STEM departments are sexist and need to be fixed.

There is only one tolerable and valid outcome: when women emerge victorious. And the goalposts may be moved back and forth accordingly for it to happen.

Did you ever play sports in middle school? One thing I noticed is that the kids who are sore, whiny losers when they lose not only feel perfectly justified in cheating and changing the rules as they go along, but they also just love to gloat and rub your face in it when they win.

ullere · 2012-09-10T13:16:36+00:00

My understanding is that out of countries who iq tests this researcher examines 3 showed women having higher IQ and the rest showed men having higher IQ?

found the source

'He collated IQ examination results from countries in western Europe and from the United States, Canada, New Zealand, Argentina and Estonia.

These showed that in westernised countries the gap in scores between men and women had become minimal.

The data for making exact comparisons was sparser and could be carried out for only a handful of countries.

It included Australia, where male and female IQs were found to be almost identical. In New Zealand, Estonia and Argentina, women scored marginally more than men.'

So in Australia men scored better, but that doesn't matter because it's marginally better, in 3 countries women scored better so hey, women are smarter.

Also this 'The data for making exact comparisons was sparser and could be carried out for only a handful of countries.' is bullshit, selective data to make headlines. Bad science, bad bad science.

SteelCrossx · 2012-09-10T13:15:34+00:00

but as the gentler sex we were quiet about it and let men continue to believe they ruled the world.

So then... Patriarchy was a ruse? It never really existed because women ruled the world the whole time? Man, that's a relief. The feminists are going to be super pissed she let that cat out of the bag, though.

crazy89 · 2012-09-10T14:12:28+00:00

Three points.

First, Flynn's research has been greatly exaggerated; he himself has said that it has been misconstrued. He argues that there are no significant cognitive differences between men and women; the fact that the women in his study do fractionally better than the men is because women "are also more focused in the testing room just as they are more focused in the classroom. So my conclusion is the sexes on the Raven's is probably dead equal for cognitive factors and there is a very slight female advantage for characterological traits." http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201207/men-women-and-iq-setting-the-record-straight

Second, scientific consensus over the past ten years demonstrates exactly the opposite of this claim. Men actually score 3-5 points higher on general IQ tests than women. The critical distinction here is not maleness or femaleness, but height. Men are taller than women. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200901/why-men-are-more-intelligent-women

This relates to my third point, which is that the study is inherently flawed from the outset. It looks at groups of men and women from ages 14-18, which is a terrible choice for making a correct gender comparison. The simple fact of the matter is that men are smarter than women, but girls are smarter than boys. (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201010/girls-are-more-intelligent-boys-men-are-more-intelligent-w) Every bit of research on the question demonstrates that girls mature faster than boys do (See, e.g., http://www.benthamscience.com/open/toanatj/articles/V002/37TOANATJ.pdf). I suspect that you'll see substantially different numbers if you break them down differently, say, by comparing girls and boys in the 17-18 range as opposed to the 14-16 range. Ideally, you'd want to look at men and women from ages 22-30, because both male and female brains are likely to have mostly finished wiring by that point but haven't yet begun any significant decline.

But all of this may be irrelevant anyway, as we are probably doomed to a future of idiocracy; our brains have already shrunk by about the size of a tennis ball from 20,000 years ago (http://discovermagazine.com/2010/sep/25-modern-humans-smart-why-brain-shrinking). There doesn't appear to be a reversal in this trend.

rottingchrist · 2012-09-10T11:20:23+00:00

On her marriage to stay-at home father Luke, 37, she said: “We have done the role reversal. I’m definitely the more intellectual person in the relationship and I’m at work full time while he is raising our daughter.

Dude is going to be dumped as soon as the kid is old enough.

nwz123 · 2012-09-10T13:17:10+00:00

I was under the impression that IQ tests had been widely discredited as being useless. Why then do some people continue to use them as a barometer for anything?

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-09-10T14:42:30+00:00

Oh the test that had a sample of 15-18 year olds?

Women's brains start the latest development stages earlier and finish earlier than men's. Men's brains are just entering that stage in that age range, while women's are almost fully developed.

So another study that is bullshit, and the media latches onto out of ignorance or "sweet, this will sell who cares if it's right".

Arxl · 2012-09-10T15:43:38+00:00

[permanently deleted]

CremasterGuy · 2012-09-10T15:34:05+00:00

“I think women probably always knew deep down that they were the more intelligent ones – but as the gentler sex we were quiet about it and let men continue to believe they ruled the world.”

This raises a critical point that underlies much of the frustration of the so-called men's rights movement.

Unwarranted criticism, outlandish misrepresentations, and negative broad brush stereotyping are all deemed by our cultural elites to be at least quasi-acceptable, and often even politically correct, when they are hurled at what is deemed to be the dominant cultural group.

It is for this reason that Christians are fair game to be mocked or reviled and Muslims are not. It is for this reason that an American president can say women do things better than men and that Pennsylvanians who live in small towns cling to their guns and religion.

The cultural elites in the popular and news media, and liberal arts professors, generally side with what they deem to be the oppressed and the downtrodden. Despite their supposed enlightenment, they do this by demonizing the so-called dominant cultural group.

And when some members of the supposed dominant cultural group dare to suggest that it isn't as clear as the cultural elites want to insist -- that its members largely aren't dominant in many areas -- they are met with irrational anger, hysteria, bug-eyed derision, and Man Boobz.

occupythekitchen · 2012-09-10T15:44:56+00:00

I love how she didn't list what women's average iq was. if they were behind men by 5 points then that means most women were 97-98 while most men were 101-102 now if women surpassed men the then what are their avg score?

I know I tested for 133 and honestly this article is so poorly written that this lady was probably one of the people who held females iq score low.

2012-09-10T15:04:22+00:00

A woman posted something about this on her Facebook, and I noted that one of the tests mentioned in the article was Raven's Progressive Matrices. I recalled getting a ridiculously high score on Raven's Progressive Matrices. Why? Because I had taken the test like 2-3 times before. So the test doesn't mean jack if it's just another raid boss I can retry to perfect my execution.

I could have been a total dick and posted data about Asian IQ scores being the highest, but I realize that kind of chest-pounding is not allowed in polite society UNLESS you're a woman.

cknight18 · 2012-09-10T17:24:38+00:00

Why can't they just believe that maybe, just maybe, women are doing better in schools because for the last few decades we've been telling boys that they're stupider?

adroitandroidMK1 · 2012-09-10T14:33:54+00:00

I thought IQ tests were deemed faulty?

In any event, it must be regional, because here at my union job in CA , we just got done implementing a new test called workeys for job placement within the company that is basically a mini SAT with math, reading and observation. Its made by the makers of the actual SAT I might add. Out of the 67 female takers, exactly 0 passed with minimum scores. All but 3 of the males passed of the 112 that also took the tests.

Of course, now the tests are being "re-evaluated" for their fairness...

subzero_600 · 2012-09-10T13:06:52+00:00

While I was studying physics at university, getting fairly good marks (enough to do honners and offered a masters scholarship), I took a couple of IQ tests. They showed I had average IQ. What that simply tells me is they are only worth the paper they are written on. They don't really test anything apart from a persons ability to take a test, and espicallyvwhen most of the questions are knowledge based rather than skills based.

EpicJ · 2012-09-10T10:59:30+00:00

It's not about who's smartest or strongest, it's about applying skills not just having them.

Also the way we tend to learn is much different there are generally 3 learning style; audio learners, visual learners and kinesthetic learners and in recent years it's leaning towards the first two and men tend to lean towards the kinesthetic more so current teaching methods are less effective for them

2012-09-10T15:57:03+00:00

I love all the sources she cites in this article. I'm sure there was a classroom, somewhere, where, at some time, men and women were, in some proportion, administered an IQ test in which, on average, women scored higher on IQ tests than men. STOP THE FUCKING PRESS THERE'S EVIDENCE, LET'S FORM A HYPOTHESIS.

DrMasterBlaster · 2012-09-10T21:57:13+00:00

As a psychologist,there are so many issues with this article that it infuriates me.

1) Intelligence tests are a measure of cognitive ability, not factual knowledge or education level per se, though the concepts are correlated. While environmental advantages and disadvantages CAN affect performance (e.g. opportunity), there are IQ tests out there that aren't even word-based, meaning that basic skills like reading, writing, and arithmetic do not factor into test results. A good example of this type of test is the Raven Matrices IQ Test. It was originally designed to reduce disparity between those with educational deficiencies and uses pictures instead of words.

2) A standard IQ test has a mean of 100 and standard deviation of 15 points. A five-point difference means there is essentially NO STATISTICAL difference between men and women. It's the same when you hear the statistic that Politician A is beating Politician B in the polls by 3% points, poll error + or - 4%. That means it could actually be that Politician B is beating Politician A by 2% points, or that Politician A is beating politician B by almost 11% points. It's within the realm of statistical error.

3) What the article doesn't tell you about Flynn and the "Flynn Effect" is that what constitutes "average" intelligence is constantly being revised because, like all statistics, a statistic is only as relevant as the population it comes from. For example, often cited evidence of American college students becoming dumber over the past 5 decades is the steady decline of average college entrance testing scores. However, in the past 5 decades we have had greater opportunity for a wider range of social and economic classes entering college; not just the previous rich elite that constituted the majority of college test-takers. The result is a wider range, a more representative population, attending college and so average and standard deviation of test scores adjust to reflect the more representative population. In short, test scores in the 1950's are only representative of 1950's test-takers and likewise for today. Women weren't "dumber" decades ago, the sample that comprised IQ test benchmarks just included LESS (or none) women and more men so it was representative of a largely male testing population. The finding in this article goes no further than to illustrate that IQ testing is become more representative of the current population demographic.

4) The notion that women were purposefully playing "stupid" for decades by Helena Jamieson (who I am sure being from English Literature is an expert on psychometrics and human behavior) should be pretty damned offensive to women.

ullere · 2012-09-10T13:17:33+00:00

Another article with the exact same spin and exact same information

ClaudeKenni · 2012-09-10T15:41:03+00:00

The problem with these figures is that anyone can draw whatever conclusion they feel like from them. If I, from a mens rights perspective, wanted to use this information to argue discrimination against men, it would be very easy to say that this shows the damage of feminisation of the education process, particularly at an earlier age, which causes such a large reversal of the figures in that age group, when all other data points to the opposite being true in late teens and adulthood.

Without researching the cause, rather than the existance, of this difference in IQ test results, the figures really say absolutely nothing at all, except as a way of indicating the prejudices of those who are reading in to them (which the last paragraph shows clearly).

2012-09-10T20:04:13+00:00

One theory for the result is that the demands of juggling family life and building a career have made women more intelligent.
Another theory is those women have always had the potential for higher results, but are only now realising it.

Another theory is that you don't know what a fucking theory is.

DavidByron · 2012-09-10T18:28:39+00:00

Pure bigotry.

IQ tests measure several more or less distinct things and then add the results together to get an overall result. Some of the things measured it is known that men do better than women (spacial reasoning for example; quite a big gap) and some it is know women do better (language; not so big a gap). This has always been known.

IQ scores were rigged to make sure women and men got the same results on average by weighing the result of the language test more heavily than the spacial reasoning results. OK? It was rigged to make the men and women the same. And that's fine if you want that to be your starting point. What do we mean by "intelligence" anyway and what is being measured etc.

But to then take the rigged results and try to deduce that men or women are smarter is just stupid. If this so-called expert on IQ is saying this crap it is only because they are a bigot pushing an agenda.

In any case since there has been so little time since IQ tests were developed any differences in test results over that time would not be explainable by changes in peoples genes but only in changes in the education system, in which case any results suggesting at better scores for women would only indicate that they were getting preferential treatment in education. but instead of the headline being "IQ scores suggest men being short changed in our schools" of course we get the feminist bigotry headline.

phukka · 2012-09-10T19:55:11+00:00

Yes, women have beaten men in IQ scores for the first time in recorded history, yet 'they've always been the more intelligent ones.'

The irony is palpable.

Numble · 2012-09-10T17:29:02+00:00

This is like sore winner mentality, right?

mayonesa · 2012-09-10T11:08:50+00:00

This is fantasy. All previous evidence shows men leading on IQ tests. Most likely they skimmed the cream or cherry picked the data.

Liberhat · 2012-09-10T13:30:20+00:00

There's some great comments on the antisrs subreddit. Feminists getting a bit of a fisking, which is always a pleasure to see.

Electroverted · 2012-09-10T14:45:49+00:00

The last paragraph takes the biscuit...

Welp, there goes any integrity that story ever had.

Cyhawk · 2012-09-10T15:26:46+00:00

While my experience is just my own and certainly doesn't dictate reality, all of the women in my life besides my younger sister are less intelligent than I am. Some of them even have college degrees (I do not). We haven't done IQ tests, but nearly every time we get into any kind of intellectual conversation they all duck out because they can't handle it. It can be about politics, religion, astronomy, physics, ocean biology, climate, etc. It's only my kid sister that loves to converse about these things. Hell, my wife asked me the other day "How do I make 1/3 a cup into 1 cup?" while she was baking. I just chuckled, thinking she was joking. She was serious.

This isn't me saying that I'm smarter than women as a whole. I'm just smarter than the 6 women in my life.

havefuninthesun · 2012-09-10T16:05:08+00:00

I think you guys are taking this (idiot) of a women too seriously. The last paragraph was just beyond stupid, but in no way can ever sway influence anywhere in the world.

The authors of the theories mentioned, however, need to be punched in the face for not having a brain.

2012-09-10T16:33:27+00:00

I think that last paragraph is in jest, I don't think we should spend a whole lot of time debating it's validity.

Furthermore, lets put the whole IQ thing to rest in general already. IQ tests have been shown repeatedly to be a poor measure of intelligence. I know some people who can strip an engine and put it back together in 24 hours but would score poorly on an IQ test. Does that make them less intelligent? Not likely.

TRAUMAjunkie · 2012-09-10T16:42:27+00:00

I love how she downplays and belittles the husband's role as the homemaker. I guess they want to have their cake and eat it too.

2012-09-10T17:46:56+00:00

Good thing IQ is a shitty indicator of overall intelligence.

NWOslave · 2012-09-10T12:33:14+00:00

It's just Flynn whose been trying to give himself a name for the past umpteen years pushing the term, "the flynn effect." His theory is that people are getting smarter as time goes by.

Further, IQ testing has radically changed over the past 40-50 years, IQ used to be measured by ability, reasoning, being able to figure out what you don't know.

A simple Example; I don't know 2x2=4, nor do I know the formula which gives me the answer of 4. I figure out the answer and the formula which I can now use to determine 3x3=9.

Todays IQ test are nothing more than rote memorization.

Example; I know 2x2=4 and I also know the formula which gives the me the answer of 4. Am I somehow intelligent? Of course not, I've simply memorized some known fact, I haven't actually figured anything out at all. I can teach a dog to open a gate to let himself out of a fenced in area, yet if I lock the gate, the other dog who hasn't been taught to open the gate might simply dig under the fence to get out. That's the smart dog.

In our Marxist school system everyone simply repeats whatever they're told to repeat as if it's a fact, and you're rewarded with a gold star. Fourty years ago Columbus was an explorer, braving unbelievable perils; Today, if you answer anything other than he was an evil, white man bent on conquering and enslaving peaceful, spiritual native americans, you've failed your indoctrination.

Try telling your teacher that the native americans normally practiced genocide and tribes would wipe out other tribes and enslave the women and children, and that they weren't peaceful, spiritual tribes at one with nature and see if you don't get expelled.

Schools these days are nothing but indoctrination centers to push a social agenda where independent thought is forbidden. IQ test are nothing but rote memorization. Memorize, conform and obey and you'll be rewarded, think independently and you'll be punished.

2012-09-10T16:13:26+00:00

This is the most sexist thing I've read in quite a while.

Add to that, this is all just speculative. Where's the science to back it up? All they're quoting for sources are more blog articles from, guess what, the same damn website!

Samccx19 · 2012-09-10T16:49:19+00:00

The telegraph is bullshit. It just feeds a constant shitstream to people in my country, pay no attention to it.

Justice502 · 2012-09-10T14:29:36+00:00

I don't hold much regard in IQ tests either way.

namae_nanka · 2012-09-10T15:28:26+00:00

to all those talking of feminism this and that in this thread, what feminism has always been about(it's a long read if you read the further comments, but worth it):

http://empathological.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/disillusionment-and-reality/#comment-1791

bondish · 2012-09-10T20:54:48+00:00

News item: iq tests show women as more intelligent than men. Feminist response: crickets

News item: iq tests show that men dominate the low end of the iq bell curve. Feminist response: crickets

News item: iq tests show that men dominate the top end of the iq bell curve. Feminist response: WE CANNOT STAND FOR THIS INDIGNITY...WHAARRGARBLE...PATRIARCHY...

leesoutherst · 2012-09-10T22:46:25+00:00

My god, I'm an idiot. I imagined that men invented nuclear weapons and energy, rockets, all varieties of physics, and all the conveniences brought by the industrial world. Women didn't do it first because they were just hanging around and pretending to be dumber, while we were played into inventing everything because they already knew how but didn't want to. Holy, my world has been rocked. Anyone have their world view turned upside down by this dramatic revelation?

Lati0s · 2012-09-10T22:51:40+00:00

The difference was literally half a point. Who cares?

drgk · 2012-09-11T02:52:38+00:00

If they're so much smarter why do I spend so much time apologizing because I'm better at everything and they find it offensive?

Dranosh · 2012-09-10T19:44:15+00:00

That article was stupid, and I laugh at her sexism lol

Octagonecologyst · 2012-09-10T21:28:11+00:00

This actually reminds me of old school scientific racism. Why is it that humans never seem to evolve?

unholyprawn · 2012-09-10T18:06:13+00:00

It would take the biscuit if it wasn't preceded by the words "I think." That makes it an opinion which is okay with me.

Trekkie1701 · 2012-09-10T14:26:53+00:00

Maybe the woman who wrote this should take her head out of her arse before she starts to choke on her own head.

2012-09-10T16:00:31+00:00

Who cares about the last paragraph... it's someone's quote. This does not mean it represents the ideas of all women and men. No, it's just one individuals bigoted opinion. It is unfortunate the researcher was quoted saying this, as I feel it discredits his research. But whatever, I'm sure it was a poorly written by the Telegraph taking something out of context.

2012-09-10T23:44:24+00:00

Weird that people take IQ tests seriously in these situations, but when someone notes that African Americans are only pulling around an 85 on IQ tests, there's plenty-a-clamoring of IQ TESTS ARE WORTHLESS NO ONE CARES BLAH BLAH BLAH.

LOVES_TO_SPLOOGE69 · 2012-09-11T03:02:32+00:00

The girl talking at the end has a complete tool for a husband.

NativeKing · 2012-09-11T06:20:10+00:00

No. Just no.

betaprime · 2012-09-11T06:27:28+00:00

Without having looked at the underlying data, I just want to make 2 points:

One could find a difference in means, but is the magnitude statistically significant? What's the margin of error for the sample size here? Journalists regularly get basic things like this wrong.
Even if true, its well known that variance (especially right tail of the distribution) generally matters more than the mean. (within the relevant parameters)

5hinerguy · 2012-09-10T21:10:14+00:00

Really? Bull moose

Epoh · 2012-09-10T18:20:35+00:00

It takes the biscuit alright, in fact, have another cookie honey.

Sandra_is_here_2 · 2012-09-10T20:46:28+00:00

Of course women have always been smarter. Who would be stupid enough not to know that?

Title	Article on women scoring higher than men in IQ tests. The last paragraph takes the biscuit....
Author	RodneyRainbegone
Upvotes	382
Comments	190
Date	September 10, 2012 10:46 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/znbe6/article_on_women_scoring_higher_than_men_in_iq/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/article-on-women-scoring-higher-than-men-in-iq.1013875 https://theredarchive.com/post/1013875

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